Michael McCarthy (Cork South West, Labour)
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We will now consider a number of topics with Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Alan Kelly. I welcome the Minister and the Secretary General, Mr. John McCarthy; the assistant secretary in the housing division, Ms Bairbre Nic Aongusa; the assistant secretary for the environment, Mr. David Walsh; Mr. Ivan Grimes; Mr. Maurice Coughlan and Ms Finola Moylette. Given the short timeframe we have this afternoon - everyone is aware of the restrictions on the Minister's schedule - I will skip the warning about privilege. We have all heard it before and I am sure the officials have heard it time and again.
We have agreed to group the questions. We received correspondence from Ervia, which was discussed earlier. A delegation from Ervia was due to attend the committee on 9 December with a reconstituted board. That will no longer be the case, as the board will not be in situand screened by that date, so we have asked it to come in as soon as possible after that. Realistically, it will be January. I might request the Minister to consider coming in with Ervia on that day, if it is agreeable to him, because of the very short timeframe this afternoon.
I will now turn to questions from members of the committee.

Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister and his officials for making themselves available for this meeting. The area of housing and homelessness is one that needs to be dealt with immediately on foot of this week's unfortunate events, which we discussed earlier in the Chamber. In February 2013 the Government set itself the target of ending homelessness by 2016. An implementation plan on the State's response to homelessness was published earlier this year. It set out specific policies, including an implementation team and a central implementation unit, which was established to drive the objectives of that plan. What reports has that committee issued on foot of its having been put in place? What commitments did it make to deliver units to deal with the issues that existed then and that have been exacerbated in the meantime?

What level of co-operation takes place between the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government and the Department of Health in terms of addiction services and associated services and in direct housing provision, especially in terms of tackling homelessness?
My next question is on the house adaptation grants and housing aid for the elderly. Is the Minister aware that the schemes recognise the funding commitment made by local authorities? Is he aware that for every €1,000 raised locally there is €4,000 raised by the Department? As he will be aware, many local authorities have so little funding that they are unable to commit the necessary resources. For example, in County Offaly 70 applicants have been informed by their local authority that it will take between three to five years before their applications can be dealt with due to a lack of funding. It would cost €15,000 per unit or over €1 million to make their homes fit for purpose. In the event of people not being able to live in their home the only alternative is to provide nursing home care through the fair deal scheme at a cost of €1,000 per week or €52,000 per year for each individual. That means it would cost up to €16 million for the 70 applicants to avail of such a scheme for a period of five years. Therefore, the cost to the State for not dealing with the initial issue is €1 million which compares favourably with the cost of €15 million for the alternative option. The local authority has jurisdiction over this matter, in conjunction with the Department. If the original €1 million cannot be provided then it will cost €15 million for the alternative option. It does not make sense to opt for the latter. I hope some effort will be made to look at pockets of the country where this scheme exists with a view to making funding available that will eradicate the waiting list and save the State money.
Last week a housing programme was announced. Local authorities expected to achieve funding from commercial rates vis-à-visIrish Water but there have been problems. What communications took place between the Department and the local authorities in the preparation of the strategy for the next four years? Can the Minister point to such meetings? Did he have a firm indication of what lands were available in each local authority and what lands had planning permission? What was the possibility or prospect of shovel-ready projects being in a local authority where one could get a greater awareness of how quick the actions contained in the strategy could be acted upon in various local authorities? What consultation took place before the publication of the strategy? What policy emanated from those meetings? How will the strategy eradicate the problem in those counties? Was it based on the information made available to the Department?
I welcome the announcement made by the Minister today in response to this week's events. He said he was prepared to facilitate a forum of relevant stakeholders later this week to inspect the potential that may exist for short-term solutions to the grave problem of people living on our streets and not having a home. Can he indicate that we will have actions rather than more plans which take too long? He must have some short-term actions in mind. In order to help the homeless a bishop has offered a building within his control as a short or medium-term solution.

Has the State or any of its arms been in consultation with the delegates recently? Will anyone be in touch with them in the coming days in an effort to make Army barracks or something of that nature available in the short term? Perhaps we could deal with these issues. Other members have questions and points to make on different matters so that we might have a greater appreciation of the whole of the Department and the Minister's responsibilities, which I am sure we will discuss at greater length in the coming weeks, given the Minister's time constraints.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Independent)
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I presume the Minister will outline his priorities, but we will expect to see certain measures during the coming year, for example, the climate Bill and planning legislation. I understand that we will undertake pre-legislative scrutiny on the planning and development (No. 1) Bill. The planning and development (No. 2) Bill will address the Mahon tribunal's recommendations. I was hoping to see additional matters covered by the Bill, for example, rebalancing the situation so that someone buying in a housing estate has more rights as regards the estate's completion and its being taken in charge. This is an issue for people. It is not the first time that we have had to pick up the pieces after developers have left.

We received a Bill on water services this morning, but it seems to have been withdrawn. Do we know what will be amended?

Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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For the record, I was not involved in any of that. I believe the Bills Office issued the Bill before it was signed off on by the Cabinet. It was re-issued. I was not even aware of it.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Independent)
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This is the Bill.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Yes, although I suppose I should not be discussing what happens at Cabinet. The Bill was published.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Independent)
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I just wanted to see whether it was-----

Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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In fairness, a human error was made in the Bills Office.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Independent)
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It is not that the Bill has been amended.

When this legislation was first announced, the intention was for metering to be in place. We will not now have bills based on meters. I understand that the meters have a 15-year lifespan. Is that the case? Are there relevant contractual obligations?

I will run through a number of other issues that I wish to raise. I will be jumping all over the place. Some 90,000 individuals and families are on the housing waiting list. The extent of the problem varies around the country. Six local authority areas account for exactly half of the 90,000. Three are in Dublin, the others being Cork city, County Cork and Kildare. Needless to say, I have an interest, as I represent Kildare where the situation is bad. It is proportionately as bad elsewhere.

Will the Minister take a targeted approach in allocating developments that are ready to build, namely, those that have planning permission and land set aside and are deliverable? Will he take a targeted approach as regards the worst affected areas? For example, will he consider permitting local authorities to buy, or even buy to repair? This could bring accommodation on stream much more quickly. What initiatives to tackle the homelessness crisis is the Minister considering? Do they focus exclusively on homelessness or is he working with other Departments on, for example, rent caps? Has he completely dismissed that issue as part of the problem?

The Minister dismissed that as part of the problem. I see it on a daily basis as central to keeping people in their accommodation for another six, nine or 12 months.

Is it intended to complete Committee and Report Stages of the Water Services Bill next week? We were told that would happen at the Whips meeting last week and I have a doubt about it now because of a comment in the House that we would return to the legislation after Christmas. Is it the Minister's intention to complete the legislation if time is made available?

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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I am a little confused on the water issue. The Minister has been confusing people about this for a number of months. Is he not proceeding with the deduction proposal that he included in his motion two weeks ago? For example, will council or social housing tenants have water charges deduced by local authorities? I expected that to be provided in the Bill because Irish Water refers to this in the information it has provided on its website and the Minister included it in the recent motion. This morning, we heard that landlords would be consulted before proceeding with the Minister's proposal to deduct the charge from deposits. I disagree with both proposals and I would be delighted if he has backtracked on them but people deserve to know whether that is the case. The Bill does not contain many of the measures the Minister outlined in the debate on the motion two weeks ago. Is this because he does not want to add fuel to the fire before the protest on 10 December which everyone in the country is talking about? I visited four picket lines of teachers this morning and they were talking about finding a way to attend the protest. If the Minister is trying to calm everything down, that is probably the right decision but people who rent deserve to know what will happen.

It is incredible that it has taken the death of a man on the streets to bring the issue of housing into the Chamber where it has not been discussed for four weeks. If this death had not happened in front of the Dáil, nobody would be talking about it. Why did the Minister express shock that this happened? Approximately 160 people are sleeping rough in Dublin and hundreds of families are on the verge of homelessness. The issue has been discussed intensively for a year and a half and it is incredible that any Minister would express shock that a homeless person has died.

I refer to the Minister's housing document. The Taoiseach indicated during Leaders' Questions that it will be discussed in the Dáil next week. Like the strategy on water services, the housing strategy was released without any discussion in the House. This is the most pressing social problem in our society. Nothing tops it, including water services. The reason people are rightly angered about water provision is it affects every person but there is no more serious problem than the housing emergency we are experiencing. I have spent a week going through the Minister's documentation. It does not provide for additional capital investment other than that announced in the budget. The Minister indicated in his contribution to the budget debate that €1.5 billion would be provided in direct capital investment, including €300 million through public private partnerships, which is a failed policy of the past, and €400 million off balance sheet, which seems to involve the outsourcing of house building to NGOs and an attempt to raise money on the markets from speculators.

There are three pillars in the document. The first gives the impression that 35,000 additional social housing units will be provided over six years. Even if that were to happen, it would be a pittance. That equates to approximately 6,000 houses a year, which is low considering that during the Celtic tiger era between 80,00 and 90,000 houses were built annually.

People might look at the figure of 35,000 and think it represents a great start, but not all of those units will actually be additional houses. Perhaps the Minister will clarify the breakdown? The figure includes leasing, refurbishing, outsourcing to housing agencies or approved housing bodies, public private partnerships and provision under the Part V regulations. As we all know, the Part V provisions did not work in the past. In short, it is not the case that 35,000 new houses will be built.
The second pillar refers to our old friends, the private landlords. This part is really just about moving people about within the private rented sector. They will either remain in the privately owned home they are already in or they will be moved to another. Again, there is no additional housing.
The third pillar is particularly worrying and certainly merits discussion in the Dáil. There is reference here to a "new framework for rents and related charges for local authority housing". This suggests that the Department wants to move to a situation where there is full cost recovery through rents, something that has been hinted at in a range of housing documents going back a long time. This is in line with the move away from the differential rent schemes towards a different model. I do not have time to go into all of this now, but I hope to do so if there is a discussion in the Dáil.
The immediate homelessness crisis is in the spotlight today following the tragic death of Jonathan Corrie. It is incredible that the National Asset Management Agency owns 12% of all hotels in this country but we can find no room for homeless people. In fact, the Government is telling MAMA to speed up the sale of those hotels so that the agency can get its books back in balance. That should stop now.
The Minister is going around boasting that €55 million is being given to alleviate homelessness. It is useful to compare this with the €83.5 million that was given in tax breaks to hotel owners and developers this year. In the third quarter of 2014, Dublin City Council paid almost €2.5 million to accommodate people in hotels, as set out in the report today in The Irish Times. These hotels include Travelodge, Bewley's Hotel, the Sunnybank hotel, the Inn on the Liffey Guesthouse - I am sure every family is dying to be accommodated there - and Newdara Limited, trading as the Portobello Hotel. These are far from five star facilities; they have been called a lot of things by a lot of people. Why is money being shovelled in the direction of these businesses when NAMA has hotels which could accommodate people as an immediate end? Why, moreover, are we talking about importing containers?
This Government has an ideological aversion - the Fianna Fáil Party is not much different - to doing what needs to be done. There were only two decades in the 20th century when a housing crisis was tackled, namely, the 1930s and 1970s. In each case it was done by public house-building on a mass scale. This Government, however, has set its face against doing that and is instead relying on the private sector to solve the problem.

Michael McCarthy (Cork South West, Labour)
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Thank you, Deputy. I remind members of the time restriction under which we are working. The Minister is due in the House at 5.25 p.m. and I must leave at 5.15 p.m. to present a Topical Issue matter. The Minister has agreed to return in January for further discussions.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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On a point of order, we are discussing huge issues here, including housing and water, but are being rushed along to conclude our contributions.

Michael McCarthy (Cork South West, Labour)
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The more time we take up discussing this, the less time there will be to discuss the issues.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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I have a great deal to say about these matters.

Michael McCarthy (Cork South West, Labour)
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The Deputy had nine minutes, which is more than each of the two previous speakers.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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That is what committee meetings are for.

Michael McCarthy (Cork South West, Labour)
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I ask the Minister to respond to that batch of questions.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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The implementation group to which Deputy Cowen referred is chaired by Ms Bairbre Nic Aongusa, who is sitting to my left, and it meets on a monthly basis to oversee the implementation of some 80 actions.

As part of that, Ms Nic Aongusa meets representatives of Dublin City Council to discuss the range of social housing actions which must be executed and also the issue of homelessness. The matter has been considered in even greater detail as a result of those meetings.

The Deputy referred to housing adaptation grants. A total of €38 million was spent on this very worthy programme in 2014. The programme has helped a range of people throughout the country. If there are pockets which have issues in respect of the this matter, we will examine the possibility of having these addressed. To my knowledge, however, the programme is working very well. We do not want to dilute the impact it is having by pulling funding from local authorities. Where funding is not used, obviously it can be reallocated. As I understand it, local authorities are quite happy with the way in which the programme has been operating. In view of the Deputy's comments, however, I will investigate the matter. It is intended that the funding relating to this very worthy and very successful programme - by means of which a great deal has been achieved - will be maintained at a similar level in 2015.

The Deputy's next question related to commercial rates. I have dealt with this matter in the House but I am happy to do so again. Discussions took place with Irish Water - which, in turn, had discussions with the local authorities - in respect of this matter. As I indicated in the House, however, detailed discussions with the Local Government Management Agency, LGMA, and the local authorities did not take place, primarily as a result of issues relating to timing. The amount involved is €59 million. In the preceding year it was €48 million. Based on revaluations, €59 million is the calculation for next year. A number of revaluations are taking place. I refer to that which is taking place in Limerick and which is giving rise to what I might term "considerable figures". That is the process by means of which this matter was dealt with.

The Deputy raised issues in respect of social housing and I have taken these on board. The strategy in this regard did not just appear out of thin air. It is a considered strategy and it is the result of a long consultative process involving the various groups, agencies and interested parties. To be fair, many aspects of that process were taken on board and used in the context of the strategy. We are happy that the filtration mechanism that was used - and the process relating thereto - dealt with many of the issues of concern to people, including the members present. Many individuals will have issues with regard to priorities and to how matters are addressed. In broad terms, however, there has been a collective welcome for the amount of capital - some €3.8 billion - that is being made available and the view has been expressed that this is a step in the right direction. We can all argue - from a political point of view - that things might be done better or in a different way. However, I think people are generally of the view that this strategy is a welcome addition.

On homelessness, Deputy Cowen made a specific query with regard to Thursday next. As already stated, we meet on weekly basis to discuss homelessness and Ms Nic Aongusa meets representatives from Dublin City Council to discuss the matter. Issues relating to homelessness also affect places outside Dublin. However, we are very much aware that the acute issues which arise primarily relate to the city. A range of actions are being taken in respect of this matter and I will comment on those in a moment. However, the Deputy specifically asked what I want from Thursday's meeting. The Deputy is correct - I am seeking concrete action. I do not want any more policies, strategies or anything of that nature. Those are not what is required.

Michael McCarthy (Cork South West, Labour)
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I apologise for interrupting but would the Minister be agreeable to a member of the committee attending Thursday's meeting of the forum?

Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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That would be no problem. I will go through the process of what is going to be involved but, in principle, I have no objection.

Michael McCarthy (Cork South West, Labour)
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My view is that, if she agrees, we should nominate Deputy Catherine Murphy to represent us. If the Deputy does not wish to attend she can let us know.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Members of the committee can work it out among themselves. In principle there is no issue.

Michael McCarthy (Cork South West, Labour)
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I thank the Minister. We will advise the name of the person attending in due course.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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There is a structure to this. We have to adhere to the structure. It just needs a format to work with.

In principle I agree with the Deputy that we need to find actions based on it. We have added a further 20% to the budget for homelessness. Just weeks ago I gave another €4 million for Dublin alone. I am not convinced it is all about funding. There may be isolated issues related to funding that are necessary and if so we will deal with them as they are itemised. Many of the issues here relate to processes. NGOs do outstanding work. The Department is doing a considerable amount of work to address the issue by working with the local authorities, particularly in Dublin. Work is also being done by various other agencies - through the HSE and others.

It is not simply a case of providing accommodation. If it was a case of just providing accommodation, I reckon we could provide it This issue is about ensuring we have a process in place such that people who find themselves in this vulnerable and difficult situation have their needs met. It is not just their accommodation needs but on a continual basis there needs to be analysis to ensure they do not slip back into homelessness. Many of the people have very complex issues that need a wide array of actions and help. The NGOs are doing a great job in all the work they do. There is all the implementation that is happening from a local authority point of view and then obviously there are all the agencies, particularly the HSE.

My real hope is that what happens on Thursday will solidify the processes by which we can ensure people are not slipping through the cracks. If there are gaps and if there are issues that need to be addressed, we should itemise them and deal with them immediately. Am I saying that funding is not one part of that? It possibly could be, but I am not convinced that if it is, it is the only aspect. I certainly believe the main issue here relates to processes. We need to get everyone together to ensure people are not slipping between the cracks. It is not just a case of meeting someone's housing need for one night in emergency accommodation. We need to have a process of engagement with that individual so that he or she is not homeless again the following night, the following week or the following month and we need a consistent architecture that is always in place.

I want all these aspects joined up. I want any gaps that are identified to be addressed as actions coming out of Thursday's meeting. If there is a requirement for more funding, I am not shy about asking for it. I will do so and I will give that commitment to this committee. I will ask for it, if that is part of the fallout from this. It will be a transparent process. I was very taken by the archbishop's comments this morning. I thought they were considered and helpful. However, there are issues that have to be addressed. Sometimes they are outside my control.

In this city one particular group has a number of units which are closed and they will not open in the short term, which is unacceptable. I cannot control that. People are not being facilitated because of decisions that I do not believe are fair. That is wrong. The local authority is trying to deal with the issue. Taxpayers' money has been used in this case - many members are aware of it - where the Catholic Housing Trust has 99 units that are not being utilised. Independent of me having to make some form of decision to go back and chase taxpayers' money, which I do not want to have to do, I would ask that they come together and address this for once and for all because it is creating an issue with supply and the availability of resources. That summarises what I want to happen on Thursday.

Deputy Catherine Murphy raised a number of issues that we will not deal with in detail today. The climate Bill is very important and I know the Deputy has a very considered interest in it, based on previous appearances. It will be coming through very shortly.

The Deputy also raised the issue of the planning (No. 1) Bill, which will also come through very shortly.

It will be a very progressive Bill that will deal with a number of issues raised by many people in these Houses, particularly with regard to vacant sites. The key question from the Deputy relates to the planning and development (No. 2) Bill, which deals with issues arising from the Mahon tribunal. This is important legislation from a planning perspective with regard to the architecture of the State and how we ensure what happened in the past does not happen again. That architecture has been recommended and will be enacted through this Bill. In lieu of the changes in this Bill, I felt it necessary to announce a full review of the operation of An Bord Pleanála. I am the first Minister to do this as it has never happened in the history of the State. This is not for a defined view but it is necessary as the board has been part of the State's mechanisms for as long as I have been on this Earth, which is approximately 39 years. The Deputy asked about taking properties in charge. If legislative change is required for the concerns raised - I share some of those concerns - I will introduce that legislation. That issue is being worked on now. If there must be a legislative process, I will deal with it.

There were questions about the Water Services Bill. The lifespan of meters is in excess of 40 years, not 15 years. The progress of the Bill will be down to the Whips but I will take Second Stage on Thursday and Friday. It will then go to Committee Stage. I can get an update from the Whips but the Deputy is one of those Whips. The legislation must be in place before 1 January 2015. I am open to whatever is necessary to ensure it gets the time required.

The Deputy asked about targeted investment for housing and "Yes" is the answer. Working with the Department officials, there is a considered approach to the issues arising from this issue. The implementation will be thorough and there will be an oversight group which I will chair, as that is necessary. The targeting of where new housing units are necessary is something on which we have spent a considerable amount of time. There is an acute issue in Dublin and there are issues in the conurbation with which the Deputy would be familiar, as she represents Kildare. We will target investment in areas where there is the most need and demand. I have indicated on numerous occasions that I have given local authority managers considerable time since coming into this position to ensure they could deliver this well-flagged strategy, and I expect them to do so. If they are not prepared to do so, serious questions will be asked. From the information I have, many local authorities are ready to go. The process will be targeted and we have heat maps for the requirements of local authority houses throughout the country. We have heat maps of the maximum amount of interventions across other areas that are progressing, and even in the Dublin area we have heat maps of where we could provide more units.

Deputy Murphy asked about the difference between buying and building. In some cases it will be necessary to purchase units for short-term requirements. One must be straight in that there is a necessity in some cases to buy units because a short-term need must be met. Department officials are working intensely on that issue. Having said that, when considering whether to buy or build, I will always come down on the side of building because this is about increasing supply. In the first couple of years we must get the mix right, as building has a lag time which we must respect, although I am trying to shorten that.

Deputy Murphy asked a question about homelessness. There are a considerable number of actions ongoing in that regard. There are 650 units, what we as politicians know as voids, which are social housing units that are boarded up. They will be brought back into play in the next four to six months across Dublin. On taking this role as Minister with responsibility for housing, I was very uncomfortable driving around this city, which I know well and in which I lived for almost nine years, and seeing local authority houses boarded up. If there was one issue we were going to tackle immediately when I took this role, it was this issue. The local authorities have progressed it significantly. The Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Jan O'Sullivan, who was Minister of State, did considerable work in this regard. Another 650 of these are to be brought into play in the next four to six months.

On housing allocations, because this is a key issue when it comes to homelessness, I have instructed the local authorities, particularly in Dublin, to ensure that 20% of their available allocations will be given towards those who are homeless. It is an acute issue and we need to change the allocation policy to provide for that. I am not sure whether everyone is aware of that. There are 164 extra emergency beds coming on stream in the very near future. That will bring the volume of emergency beds to well in excess of 1,500.

One measure which has worked well and in which regard I thank Threshold, which does great work, is an intervention mechanism which has been in place in Dublin since the end of July or early August and which takes the form of a tenancy sustainment protocol for vulnerable families or individuals who are in danger of losing their accommodation. We have a process working with the local authority whereby Threshold will negotiate with the landlord and work with the local authority to try to ensure that these people are not made homeless. The success rate has been phenomenal - well in excess of 200 - in the cases that have been identified. This has been in place only for a couple of months. I want to see that extended across Dublin through whatever means we can and across other local authorities where there are acute difficulties. We will deal with the acute areas first, across the conurbations of Dublin, Cork, Galway, Limerick, Waterford, Kilkenny and so forth. That has been quite successful.

We have increased the budget to deal with homelessness by €10.5 million to in excess of €55.5 million for 2015. I repeat that I am not convinced this is solely an issue of funding. Only last week I gave €4 million to the issues of Dublin. Supply is the key issue in the long term, but we need to ensure that the necessary short-term mechanisms are put in place, and that is my key issue.

The Deputy asked a question about rent supplement, which as the committee will be aware does not come under my remit. Rent supplement is something that is being reviewed. I would not like to say that it is something that is totally dismissed because the Minister is continually reviewing it, but whatever process is put in place, we must ensure that landlords nests are not feathered by any increase of such supplement.

On the work of Threshold in targeting families who are in a vulnerable situation at present, in an absolute majority of cases the rent supplement is increased. Maybe we need to improve the targeting process to get the rent supplements increased, but I would have a concern in principle about merely increasing the rent supplement because rents would probably just increase. I do not want to facilitate an increase in rent. It is not as simple as that. The targeting of how this is done is the critical issue.

To take away Deputy Coppinger's confusion, there are two Bills and one comes before the other. I explained what happened here in relation to the Bills Office. It was merely a human error. Frankly, I was not even aware of it. The Deputy has the Bill in front of her. After Christmas, there will be a further Bill to deal with the issues the Deputy raised in relation to local authorities, landlords, etc.

She will have to await its publication to see its detail, but the principles by which I spoke two weeks ago will remain. Given the timeframe, the Attorney General will deal with a number of issues concerning the Bill.

Regarding homelessness, I am not aware of what the Taoiseach stated in the Dáil. I was not available at the time. Whatever actions will emanate from Thursday will be brought to a Cabinet sub-committee next Monday to be enacted in whatever way necessary. In principle, I have no issue with any Dáil discussion on homelessness. It is just a matter of finding time to facilitate such a debate. I would welcome it, but all of our time is currently being taken up.

The Deputy's statement that there had been no extra capital investment was bizarre. We announced €3.8 billion for implementation and that 35,000 new homes would be put in place. There are a number of ways to bring social housing units that are boarded up back into use. Those units total approximately 2,300. The aim is to lease approximately 11,000 units while building and, to a lesser extent, acquiring-----

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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How many will be built?

Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I was just about to give the Deputy that figure. It will be in excess of 22,000 units. These figures were in the public domain last week. The Deputy has read and digested the strategy. The current figure is 22,273 units, but I would like to increase it somewhat, if possible.

The Deputy need not have concerns about reform. The changes being considered are meant to facilitate people. This is not a question of full cost recovery. I do not envisage a change in local authorities' differential rent systems, but I want to ensure consistency of approach. In many ways, local authorities are doing completely different things.

A range of other reforming steps is necessary. For example, we are creating a passport. Housing need does not respect local authority boundaries. Someone who moves between local authority areas should not have to start the rigmarole all over again. That is a crazy situation. We will introduce a new tenant purchase scheme, which will be broadly welcomed across the political spectrum. It will be sustainable and give people choices. We are also considering the possibility of tri-space lettings. Some local authority managements and representatives have raised with me the issue of the amount of time that is lost between the time someone is offered social housing and the time he or she refuses it or, for whatever reason, becomes unable to accept it. This could happen twice in respect of the same property. Someone is missing out because of the lost time. I intend to use a web-based system primarily so that people might see in advance what is available, determine whether they meet all of the requirements and declare their willingness. If a person or family does not take a unit, another person or family will get it automatically. These proposed measures are very progressive and necessary. They should have been dealt with a number of years ago.

Some 926 units have been provided by NAMA. By the end of next year, it intends to make in excess of 450 further units available for social housing. If it builds at the scale for which it has planned up to 2020, and given the changes I will introduce in respect of Part V to deliver actual units instead of just giving permission for same, there will be a further contribution of 2,500 units.

This is positive.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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May I make a point?

Michael McCarthy (Cork South West, Labour)
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No. We do not have time. The Minister must leave at 5.20 p.m. and there is a series of questioners remaining, the majority of whom we will not reach. We will get to Senator Landy and Deputy Stanley, but we have time for nothing else bar questions.

Denis Landy (Labour)
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I welcome the Minister.

Michael McCarthy (Cork South West, Labour)
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I have already welcomed him. If we keep talking, we cannot get responses.

Denis Landy (Labour)
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I will ask a number of specific questions. According to last week's document, the Minister intends to regulate approved housing bodies, AHBs. Will that be by way of legislation? The document also referred to a tenant purchase scheme, which is something I would welcome. Will there be discounts like there were in previous schemes? Will the Minister confirm whether somewhere in the order of 900,000 people have registered with Irish Water? If so, it means people are talking through their e-mails and in their responses to Irish Water as opposed to anything else.

Will the Minister confirm who will attend next Thursday's forum on homelessness? I welcome its establishment by him. Will a Catholic Church representative of the voluntary sector attend? I welcome Archbishop Diarmuid Martin's offer of 30 units today. From where will they come? Has the church other units that could be made available to the homeless, for example, All Hallows College, which will soon become vacant and has a great deal of accommodation that would be appropriate for this use?

Will the Minister clarify an issue regarding next year's budget for homelessness services, which will be €55.5 million? If he cannot do so today, will he send us a breakdown of that figure? This week, many people have asked me about where the money goes every year. We need a breakdown, as the opinion seems to be that it is going towards administration as opposed to addressing the problem on the street. I want to be able to tell people whether that opinion is correct.

The Simon Communities have closed 37 units on Seán McDermott Street because the building is to be refurbished. Will the Minister ask on Thursday whether the Simon Communities, which receive some funding from the State in this regard, can re-open those units this side of Christmas so that homeless people can be provided with housing?

Michael McCarthy (Cork South West, Labour)
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Before I go to Deputy Stanley, can we reach an agreement on whom we should send to the forum on Thursday? I suggested Deputy Catherine Murphy.

Robert Dowds (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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She might not be able to.

Michael McCarthy (Cork South West, Labour)
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If not, could we agree on a substitute? Deputy Coppinger?

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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Yes.

Michael McCarthy (Cork South West, Labour)
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If Deputy Catherine Murphy cannot go, we will send Deputy Coppinger.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Four of us have been waiting to contribute. I propose that we adjourn. I do not want four of us to be crammed into the last four minutes. A line of serious issues must be covered. I represent an Opposition party. These members to my left represent Government parties and are as concerned as I am. The Minister is busy with his new brief and is trying to give everything attention. In view of this could we adjourn this meeting and return tomorrow, Thursday or Friday? I will make myself available at any time.

Denis Landy (Labour)
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On a point of order,-----

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I do not want-----

Michael McCarthy (Cork South West, Labour)
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Before the Deputies go any further, the remark has been made since the start of this meeting that it has been rushed.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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It is not that. We-----

Michael McCarthy (Cork South West, Labour)
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Three members agreed to ask questions together as a group, those being, Deputies Coppinger, Catherine Murphy and Cowen. Their contributions lasted for approximately nine minutes, eight minutes and seven minutes, respectively, and there was a 35-minute reply.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Three members got one hour but four people will only get four minutes.

Michael McCarthy (Cork South West, Labour)
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I fully understand. I was willing to try to make as much provision as I could, given the time restrictions.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I accept that.

Michael McCarthy (Cork South West, Labour)
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Mea culpa. I should have taken Deputy Stanley's questions after Deputies Cowen and Catherine Murphy spoke, but he came in after that point. That was my fault.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Three other members will be left.

Michael McCarthy (Cork South West, Labour)
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I should have taken Deputy Stanley before then, as he is an Opposition spokesperson. In any event, the time restriction is not mine.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I propose that we adjourn and reconvene.

Denis Landy (Labour)
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On a point of order, if it is agreed that we adjourn I am asking to be allowed back in first because I respected the Chairman. I have quite a lot of other questions I would like to ask and points I would like to make. In order to facilitate the Minister, I----

Michael McCarthy (Cork South West, Labour)
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Before it turns into a free-for-all, I remind members that the clock is still ticking and there is less time out of a restricted schedule.

Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
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May I point out that we have the Minister in the Seanad tomorrow and I will forfeit my right to ask him a question tomorrow in the Seanad?

Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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May I deal with Deputy Stanley's questions?

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome the money for the voids, although it is relatively small amount. I would like to report to the Minister that, in the case of County Laois, that relatively small amount is all being used and all voids are either under way, renovated and back in use, or almost completed. That money works, but of course more is needed.

The concern I have about the Government strategy is that there is a huge reliance on the private sector. Without rent caps or some kind of rent control, which are common in other European countries, we are going to fuel the private rented sector. This is a genuine concern of mine and not an excuse to have a go at the Minister. This could increase the demand on private rented accommodation. I know we are locked into a situation where immediate solutions have to be provided, but the Government and the Oireachtas need to do something about rent controls. We need to grasp this. I know all the arguments that we cannot impose blanket controls, but there are ways of doing it within the Constitution and so on. If necessary, we should change the Constitution to do it.

We recounted earlier on the death of Jonathan Corrie and the appalling situation. That must never be allowed happen again. I welcome the funding increase, the €53 million, but the four midland counties only get 1.5% of that and there is a growing homelessness problem in Laois and Offaly.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I am not 1 million miles away from the midlands myself.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I am just highlighting that it is not confined to Dublin. It is shocking and very visible around here and I am appalled by it, but I see it in County Laois as well. I picked up a homeless man the other morning and brought him to Carlow, a hitchhiker with a black bag in his hand, and he spent nights homeless in Portlaoise. I ask the Minister to address that.

On the issue of water metering, the Minister said that the life span of the meters is 40 years. Irish Water, if I heard correctly, have a different view, and mentioned a figure that is one fifth of that. I believe they have stated that the lifespan of a meter is about eight years. I am open to correction on that. I asked this question the other day.

Concerning the new direct builds by the local authorities, can the Minister outline exactly how many houses are going to be built each year in the State? What is the plan? I know a number of mechanisms are being used and some houses are being built on balance sheet while others are being built off balance sheet. Are the off-balance-sheet builds all to be done by the voluntary housing associations or are any of them going to be built by the local authorities?

My final question concerns the Mahon tribunal. A planning regulator was one of a number of recommendations from the Mahon tribunal. When are we going to get a planning regulator in place?

Michael McCarthy (Cork South West, Labour)
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There are a lot of questions there between Senator Landy and Deputy Stanley and the Minister will not get through all of them. Can he answer as many as he can here and contact the Senator and the Deputy directly in writing about any questions that remain unanswered?

Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I will do my best. The answer to Senator Landy's question about AHB regulation is "Yes", that will be coming through shortly and in place by 2016.

There will certainly be a discount in place in the tenant purchase scheme. It is not going to be offered in the same way as it was in the past. I think it needs to be improved, to be honest. I will be straight about this; a number of Deputies have approached me on this issue from across all political areas and it is necessary. I will be putting that in place.

The figures on Irish Water the Senator gave are broadly correct. I do not have them down to the exact number but it is broadly correct.

On the homelessness forum, the units that the archbishop is talking about are in north County Dublin but I will be talking to him about his other examples on Thursday. He has said that he will make 30 available in north Dublin.

The homelessness budget of €55.5 million is broken down by region. It is divided into nine regions with a lead authority in each. I have the 2014 figures for the regions, which I will provide to anyone who wants them. The 2015 budget obviously has not yet been allocated but when it has I will send on the information.

I have to say out straight that I think there are issues with those Simon Community units. I have said this previously about the Catholic Housing Aid Society, and I am saying it of Simon now as well. These may be examples of issues that need to be sorted out on Thursday. We do not need a drop in supply or in the number of these units with nothing filling in for them. If things need to be upgraded and units need to be closed, which I respect is necessary from time to time, or if there are other issues, we need a process by which that void, for want of a better phrase, can be filled. I have a concern about the consultative process and how all of this works together.

I am trying to run through the questions in order to be as helpful as possible. I thank the Deputy for his comments on the voids in County Laois. I understand where he is coming from. It is not too far away from me and it is a successful scheme that I want to prioritise. More funding will be provided if necessary. I think it is the greatest way of turning properties around quickly.

I have spoken about rent caps on numerous occasions, and there are legal and constitutional issues as Deputy Stanley has said. That is something that can be looked at. Deputy Stanley has to appreciate the fact I have to accept the advice I get as well. One issue is that we have had studies on this. The PRTB did a study which showed that if we had rent caps in place over the past ten years, it would have increased rents. If Deputy Coppinger disagrees, she may take that up with the PRTB. It is their study.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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How could they increase rents with rent caps?

Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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It would affect supply and as a result increase rents.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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What about the other countries?

Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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If the Deputy wants to question the PRTB and the viability of their analysis, he is free to do so, but I have to take it on board. We also have an issue with awareness levels on tenants' rights, and this is something we need to deal with collectively. Many tenants are being treated in a certain way because they are not aware of their rights. There is a considerable amount of regulation and legislation to back up tenants and that needs to be looked at.

On the issue of homelessness, I take on board Deputy Stanley's point on the midlands. I come from the mid-west myself and it is an issue I will have a look at.

On water metering, the period of 40 years relates to the main part of the architecture which is the boxes and the units. The actual meters themselves have to be checked every ten years or so and that is the difference the Deputy has heard between the two timelines. The main cost is the unit and that is the 40-year lifetime.

Regarding the question of the local authorities, AHBs and targets, as a result of my announcement on social housing last week, the proportion of the builds that will be done across local authorities, AHBs and all of that, and the architecture by which that will be done, will be announced. I have set up a group to oversee implementation, which will chaired by Ms Bairbre Nic Aongusa. All of that will be available next year and will be open to public scrutiny.

On the issue of a planning regulator, the general scheme of the Bill will be forwarded to the committee before Christmas and we are aiming for enactment sometime before the end of 2015. If I have my way, it will not be at the end of 2015 but before that. It is certainly something the Deputy and I would welcome, given past experience.

Michelle Mulherin (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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If the Minister has a few more minutes, I had a serious question for him regarding water. It is obvious that the time allocated---

Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I am due in the Dáil Chamber now.

Michael McCarthy (Cork South West, Labour)
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Deputy Mulherin---

Michelle Mulherin (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It is an issue that affects people in rural Ireland who do not have a proper water supply.

Michael McCarthy (Cork South West, Labour)
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Perhaps Deputy Mulherin could contact the Minister directly. Would the Minister be willing to deal with the Deputy directly?

Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Yes.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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There was a proposal made to adjourn and then reconvene this meeting so that we could have more time to discuss these two important issues.

Michael McCarthy (Cork South West, Labour)
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Deputy, you have already had nine minutes.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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That is not relevant. We have not even had a chance to discuss housing at all.

Michael McCarthy (Cork South West, Labour)
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The spokesperson for the Technical Group ---

Michelle Mulherin (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Some people did not get a chance to contribute at all.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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I am trying to get more time for everybody.

Michael McCarthy (Cork South West, Labour)
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The spokesperson for the Technical Group is Deputy Catherine Murphy, not Deputy Coppinger but I still gave Deputy Coppinger nine minutes. She was replied to within 35 minutes and got better treatment than most members - particularly those who did not get to speak at all.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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I am not talking about my personal treatment. I am talking about time for people to-----

Michael McCarthy (Cork South West, Labour)
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I am talking about the time allocated to Deputy Coppinger.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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It is ridiculous that as a committee ---

Michelle Mulherin (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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In fairness, we can all go and talk to the Minister directly. I have an issue that I wanted to raise here. I have communicated with the current Minister and with his predecessor about it but it is problem that does not seem to fall within the scope of the marching parades against water charges. People in rural Ireland are looking for new group water schemes but are being discommoded because the schemes are deemed to be non-viable due to the cost of setting them up. Will the Minister change the rules and increase the allocation so that these schemes can become viable? The rules were changed in April, with an extra €1,000 given per house up to a maximum of €7,475. A lot of these schemes have been awaiting approval for a number of years. The people involved can neither drink nor wash their clothes. They are willing to pay for water but they need to get schemes up and running. They have paid their contributions, which are sitting in a bank account. They are paying company charges to renew the company accounts every year with the Companies Registration Office. I am wondering if the Minister has any good news for us on this.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I will answer that in 30 seconds. We have seen increases in the recent past and Deputy Mulherin is correct - this issue needs a complete re-analysis. At the moment we are putting together an investment programme for group water schemes over the next four to five years and identifying the areas on which we need to concentrate. That is happening now.

Michelle Mulherin (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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In Mayo, there were seven schemes planned but following the change of rules, only two of them made the cut. There are people who have been waiting for years since the Clár scheme collapsed.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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If the Deputy wants to raise particular schemes with me, I will be happy to deal with them.

Michelle Mulherin (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I have communicated with the Minister on this.

Michael McCarthy (Cork South West, Labour)
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I thank the Minister. This meeting now stands adjourned.