Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees

Wednesday, 19 November 2014

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality

European Union Agency for Law Enforcement Training: Motion

10:50 am

Photo of David StantonDavid Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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In this part of the meeting we will consider a motion regarding the proposed approval by Dáil Éireann and Seanad Éireann of a regulation of the European Parliament repealing and replacing the Council decision establishing CEPOL. It reads as follows:


That Dáil Éireann approve the exercise by the State of the option or discretion under Protocol No. 21 on the position of the United Kingdom and Ireland in respect of the area of freedom, security and justice annexed to the Treaty on European Union and to the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union to take part in the adoption and application of the following proposed measure:Proposal for a Regulation of the European Parliament and of the Council establishing a European Union agency for law enforcement training (CEPOL), repealing and replacing Council Decision 2005/681/JHA,a copy of which was laid before Dáil Éireann on 8th August 2014.
A briefing document has been circulated. I welcome the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Frances Fitzgerald, and her officials and invite her to brief the committee on the motion. We will then have a question and answer session.

Photo of Frances FitzgeraldFrances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Chairman and the joint committee for agreeing to take the motion today. We want to do this, if possible, before 24 November. The motions concerns a proposed opt-in regulation of the European Parliament and the Council establishing a European Union agency for law enforcement training would be very helpful to An Garda Síochána.

CEPOL is a European Union agency established in 2005. Its goal is to bring together senior police officers from police forces in Europe, essentially to support the development of a network and encourage cross-border co-operation in public security, law and order and the fight against crime by organising training activities and research. Ireland participates in the existing Council decision on CEPOL. An Garda Síochána is an active contributor in a variety of ways to the work of CEPOL; in fact, it plays a central role in organising courses.

CEPOL is a virtual college which organises between 80 and 100 courses, online seminars and conferences on topics relevant to police forces throughout Europe. The implementation of the activities is organised by national course managers and normally takes place in the national police training colleges of the EU member states. The operating budget is €8.45 million which is spread over three pillars, namely, staffing, infrastructure and operational costs.

There are 34 full-time staff who were based in the United Kingdom but are now based in Budapest. Work is ongoing to decide what the long-term future of CEPOL will be. The Justice and Home Affairs Council of Ministers voted to move the seat to Hungary in October 2013.

CEPOL is a very cost-effective way of upskilling members of An Garda Síochána in critical policing areas in times of restricted budgets, but it also offers a diversity of training courses for police officers in areas in which they may not have a national skills base. This is very important. There may be emerging areas or areas in which specific training is necessary for police officers. It could be cyber crime, dismantling illicit laboratories or other such areas in which it would be very helpful to have a European and an international context for working together.

I attended the international Interpol conference recently for one day and one could see where that kind of cross-border work, the sharing of information and upskilling on an ongoing basis was ever more necessary because crime did not stop in its methods. Criminals are constantly upskilling in the way they commit crime, which is most obvious on the Internet. CEPOL provides an opportunity to bring together those skilled in this variety of areas.

There is a grant agreement system that allows people to attend. This year 47 courses were attended by members of An Garda Síochána. Members can see that it is a useful resource in the areas of cyber crime and urban violence. Another area at which they have looked is trafficking in human beings. The courses facilitate a very wide range of topics to be considered by police officers. There are also bilateral exchanges. The topics covered are ones that have been identified as priority areas. Each year member states apply for a grant agreement which is highly sought after. Therefore, An Garda Síochána, with other police forces, has to try to win the tender to undertake courses. It contributes 5% towards the cost of running courses.

The Garda College has been involved in the running of CEPOL courses since CEPOL was established. There is a senior management programme which I am happy to say has been hosted by the college in Templemore in recent years. It is a flagship programme and quite an amount of expertise has been developed by the college in the topics covered by the course. The programme lasts for a full year and is organised in four one-week modules in four member states, from which members can see its complexity. The final module of the course will be held in December in Templemore.

This is a proposal for a regulation which the Commission has produced with a view to enhancing the operational mandate and reforming governance in line with general principles laid down in the Lisbon treaty. The general aim of the proposal is to "improve EU security through the implementation, by CEPOL, of a new training approach for EU law enforcement officers, consistent with evolving priorities for operational law enforcement and co-operation". It is putting governance on a stronger footing. Obviously, the motion will pass through the Dáil and the Seanad.

I do not believe there are difficulties or implications arising from the regulation from an Irish perspective and recommend the motion to the committee. There are certain governance principles, in line with those laid down in the common approach to EU decentralised agencies, and I am recommending that we exercise our discretion to opt in to the measure.

Photo of Pádraig Mac LochlainnPádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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I apologise for being a little late to hear the Minister's presentation.

Photo of Frances FitzgeraldFrances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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Not at all.

Photo of Pádraig Mac LochlainnPádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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The principle of police services across Europe and internationally co-operating is welcome to combat the dangers posed by trafficking, drugs, security threats and so on. There is a range of areas in which it is necessary to have co-operation. The only issues that arise revole around the civil liberty aspect. Different data protection laws apply in different states. There are different legal frameworks in terms of the rights of an accused person and differing definitions of crime in different states. It is important to get a sense of how, for example, the rights of Irish citizens will be protected vis-à-visthe rights of citizens in another state. These are the only issues on which I seek clarification, but I support the principle of An Garda Síochána co-operating with other police forces to combat the collective threats to the peoples of the different states involved.

Photo of Frances FitzgeraldFrances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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The main point is that this is a training programme. In this context, the focus is on training, as opposed to discussing operational issues. When we are participating in training courses, we are conscious of both our own data protection laws and international data protection orders.

This is a day-to-day issue for An Garda Síochána as well because we co-operate regularly with Europol and Interpol and all of those data protection concerns remain. Further EU mechanisms for data protection are still on the agenda of the JHA and will continue to be for some time, as there are many issues to be teased out in that regard.

11:00 am

Photo of Pádraig Mac LochlainnPádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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My concern is that the Government would continue to monitor CEPOL in terms of the various legal frameworks that operate in different jurisdictions. I welcome the co-operation outlined by the Minister.

Photo of David StantonDavid Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Do members have any more questions?

Photo of Katherine ZapponeKatherine Zappone (Independent)
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I thank the Minister. I again apologise for being slightly late. It does not appear that there is any downside to the proposal, which I support. Could the Minister elaborate more on the reform of governance in line with the principles laid down? Will the Minister share with the committee whether there will be one or two practical implications?

Photo of Frances FitzgeraldFrances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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I referenced very briefly the fact that what is envisaged is a review of the board of management for CEPOL and who will be a member of the board. Principles are already laid down in the common approach on EU decentralised agencies. The measure is to ensure by way of regulation that CEPOL must adhere fully to that. I am not aware that there are any major ways in which it does not meet the criteria at the moment, but it is necessary to set down the requirements to meet the benchmarks in terms of standards of governance. That is included in the regulation. CEPOL has been operating most effectively but the regulation is the means by which Ireland agrees to support the measures outlined.

Photo of David StantonDavid Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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One issue which came up is that the agency will be based in Budapest. From the note it appears that may only be on a temporary basis. Could the Minister say a little about that? Are there plans to have the headquarters there on a permanent basis?

Photo of Frances FitzgeraldFrances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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The background to this is that the UK made the interesting decision to decide not to continue to host CEPOL. A tendering process ensued and Ireland did tender for it, on which the Garda Síochána is to be commended. It would have been good if we had been successful in the tender but we were not on this occasion. No doubt if it comes up for renewal or if it comes on the agenda again, depending on what happens in Budapest, because that is a temporary decision, An Garda Síochána will continue to monitor the situation.

Photo of David StantonDavid Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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There is also a proposal to merge CEPOL into Europol.

Photo of Frances FitzgeraldFrances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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I do not believe that proposal will go ahead, although it was a possibility.

Photo of David StantonDavid Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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That will not happen now.

Photo of Frances FitzgeraldFrances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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It is not on the table at present.

Photo of David StantonDavid Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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I am pleased to see cybercrime mentioned first, because the information we have is that cybercrime is one of the biggest threats to any modern state. We urge that the matter would be given a lot of attention. With the Minister’s agreement and that of the Garda Síochána, the committee might visit Templemore to look around the Garda college and some of the work going on there.

Photo of Frances FitzgeraldFrances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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That would be very welcome, in particular at the moment as 100 new recruits have commenced training. There will be an intake of another 100 on 1 December and a further intake of 100 on 1 January. The new training course is very different from the previous system and it would be interesting for the committee to see that and to ask questions on the new modules that have been introduced. I am sure An Garda Síochána has found the students very receptive. For example, I have suggested to them that victims of crime should have an opportunity to meet the young recruits because what one hears when one is being trained is very influential. Such an approach has already been set in motion. The young woman who lost her family in a road traffic accident has met the new recruits. Such an initiative is very important. I would like it to be continued.

Photo of David StantonDavid Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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The visit might not happen until the new year as our budget has been exceeded at this stage.

Photo of Pádraig Mac LochlainnPádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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On the theme of cyber threats, I wish to take the opportunity to raise the Darknet. The UK police service has been pursuing it. The Darknet was originally a benign enough concept that was used by activists in areas where the Arab spring was prevalent and by journalists, but unfortunately in recent times it is being used by people to view images of child abuse on the Internet. We must co-operate with international police services to address the serious threat presented. People have a right to Internet privacy but if one uses it to engage in heinous acts, that must be addressed.

My final point relates to training. The Garda Inspectorate report contains a number of recommendations on training. Will there be an opportunity to inculcate some of those recommendations in the current pool of trainee gardaí?

Photo of Frances FitzgeraldFrances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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That is a good point on the recommendations about training. I will ask the Garda Commissioner to see how many of the recommendations on training could be incorporated immediately. The Garda Inspectorate report contains short, medium and longer-term recommendations. We could certainly incorporate some of the short-term recommendations

Cybercrime and the Darknet form a major issue. The Garda is very conscious of the issue and is improving its skill base. The kind of encryption that is possible for those using it can be extraordinarily difficult for police forces to deal with, as I heard when I attended the child sexual abuse online conference in Washington. Today in Dublin we are hosting the international conference on pharmaceutical crime, another area in which the Darknet is being used, in addition to drugs, crime and child sexual abuse. That gives rise to the importance of training on cybercrime and the importance of CEPOL.

Photo of David StantonDavid Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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That is very useful. I thank the Minister for engaging on the issues with us. We are always extremely interested to receive information and briefings from her. I mentioned to the Minister that a report was published recently on gun control. Members are very anxious to get involved but the date for submissions is very short. It would help us greatly if the consultation period were extended to the end of January or beyond that, as it would give us an opportunity to do some work on that very important issue.

Photo of Frances FitzgeraldFrances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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The Chairman and a number of other Deputies spoke to me yesterday on the matter. I have made a decision to extend the date to 31 January. It is a short report done by the Department and An Garda Síochána. I would be very happy to refer it to the committee but I would ask that the committee would come back to me by 31 January if that is possible. The matter relates to regulation.

Photo of David StantonDavid Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister for being present and for her positive engagement.