Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I remind members and those in the Visitors Gallery that their mobile telephones should be switched off for the duration of the meeting as they interfere with the broadcast of the proceedings.

I welcome the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, Deputy James Reilly. I also Ms Elizabeth Canavan, Secretary General, of the Department, Mr. Denis O'Sullivan, Ms Michele Clarke, Ms Mary McLoughlin, Mr. Alan Savage and Mr. Dan Kelleher.

Before we commence I remind witnesses that they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. However, if witnesses are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. Witnesses are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person outside the House or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

Apologies have been received from Deputy Peter Fitzpatrick who, as part of his duties, is attending another meeting, and Deputy Catherine Byrne. Deputy Robert Troy has to leave to attend business in the Dáil but will return.

This is our quarterly meeting with the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs. It is also an opportunity for members who have submitted written questions in advance to have them discussed. The replies have been submitted to Members as have the Minister replies. I acknowledge that the Minister's opening statement was received only just before the meeting commenced. I thank the Minister for being present and invite him to make his opening remarks.

James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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Gabh mo leithscéal, tá botún i gCeist Uimh. 30 don Teachta Séamus Healy.

The latest figures available to my Department show 1,130 social workers. That figure is obviously a typo, it is 130 social workers. That is in Question No. 30, Deputy Healy's question.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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Is it 130 social workers?

James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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Yes. It is in Question No. 30, first line of third paragraph.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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The first paragraph is the question, following by the second paragraph, and the third paragraph contains the error. I invite the Minister to continue.

James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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I thank the committee for its invitation. I am pleased to have the opportunity to update the Joint Committee on Health and Children in support of its quarterly review of my Department's work.

On the last occasion when I appeared before the committee in July, it was less than a week since my appointment as Minister for Children and Youth Affairs. I found the experience to be a useful induction into the broad range of issues within my Department's remit.

I want to bring the committee up to date on the full range of developments in my Department in the past quarter. I hope that the comprehensive responses which I have already provided to the written questions submitted by the members of this committee in advance of today's session will assist its examination of the issues concerned and will assist our discussion today.

In these opening remarks I wish to mention a number of key developments among the priority areas of the Department since our last session. These include: budget 2015; update on the national children detention facilities project at Oberstown; progress on our legislative programme; developments towards the commission to inquire into the mother and baby homes; implementation of Better Outcomes, Brighter Futures: the National Policy Framework for Children and Young People 2014-2020; and steps towards the appointment of a new Ombudsman for Children.

The 2015 Estimate for my Department demonstrates that, while operating under difficult budgetary constraints, this Government is strongly committed to delivering important reform and service developments to support Ireland's children and families. I am fully committed to ensuring real reform of child welfare and protection services and making this country a better and safer place to be a child or young person.

There are two elements to my Department's Vote which amounts to €1.01 billion or €1,010 million in 2015. The Estimate for next year contains significant additional resources to fund the services and programmes provided by the Child and Family Agency. In 2015 the agency will have a budget of €635 million including more than €12 million in capital funding. This is an increase of €26 million, or 4.3%, over the 2014 provision.

The balance of €375 million relates to other programmes funded directed by the Department of Children and Youth Affairs. In 2015 my Department will provide €260 million to support the child care sector to enable children and parents to access high quality and affordable child care. The total number of children benefiting from support under the child care programmes is more than 100,000. I am pleased to say there will be no reduction in the €50 million funding for youth services in 2015, which was a key priority for youth organisations.

The committee will be aware that the Child and Family Agency, established on 1 January 2014, represented one of the most ambitious and far reaching public sector reforms undertaken by the Government. It involved the bringing together of almost 3,800 staff from three organisations, the HSE, the Family Support Agency and the National Educational Welfare Board. The coming together of services under one roof has provided a platform for the delivery of a more efficient and effective service to vulnerable children and families. The overall level of funding of €635 million which will be made available to the agency in 2015 is significant by any measurement. It is to ensure the agency can provide a comprehensive and integrated service for children and families who require support. Notwithstanding the additional resources provided and the prioritisation of these services by the Government, it is acknowledged that delivering the range of services required of the agency is challenging as a result of demographic and social factors. Operational reforms are ongoing to achieve the most effective utilisation of existing resources. In addition, the agency has been working to bring added controls in the area of legal services and continues to develop its approach to the commissioning of services. My Department has in place a strong system of performance monitoring, with monthly and quarterly performance closely monitored in key areas, including finance, HR and service activity levels.

The practice of detaining children in adult prison facilities is not one modern society should tolerate, which is why ending this practice is a core programme for Government commitment. Work is nearing completion on the first three residential units which will facilitate the transfer of responsibility for 17 year old boys from the adult prison system to the children detention schools. In addition to the €56 million capital project to develop new national children detention facilities, the allocation of €1.8 million in current expenditure in 2015 will provide for the increased operational costs of the extended Oberstown facilities under its expanded role. Some 24 new care staff arrived at the Oberstown campus in October for initial training and orientation. This is the first increase in staffing for the children detention school system for many years.

The legal framework for the detention of children is also being updated and the heads of a Bill for amendments to the Children Act 2001 were recently approved by the Cabinet. Drafting work is under way. The Bill will provide for the legal amalgamation of the three existing children detention schools and the repeal of all current legal provisions which permit the detention of children in the adult prison system. I am committed to working with campus management and its board of management to ensure the current change programme in the children detention school system is completed successfully.

A key priority in my Department's legislative programme is the Children First Bill. The committee will be aware that I intend that the Bill will advance to Committee Stage in the Dáil in this session. The Children First interdepartmental group is also pursuing implementation issues generally at this time and revised national guidance is being developed with the passage of the Bill.

I am pleased to inform the committee that I intend to seek Government approval for the draft heads of an adoption (information and tracing) Bill and referral of that Bill to the committee for pre-legislative scrutiny. I have already submitted a written response to a Member's question on this legislation in which I outline the progressive approach I wish to take to provide for access to as much information as possible and as legally possible for adopted persons. I hope to be in a position to introduce the Adoption (Amendment) Bill following on from the children's rights referendum, subject to the outcome of the Supreme Court proceedings on that referendum. It is expected that the outcome of the Supreme Court's deliberations will be available in the early part of next year.

I have received the committee's report on the proposed legislative provisions in respect of aftercare and will give careful attention to this important input before I seek the approval of the Government to draft the Bill. I express my gratitude to the committee for its important input into this vital matter.

My Department has ongoing engagement with the Department of Justice and Equality on its progressing of the Children and Family Relationships Bill, the general scheme of which was approved by the Government in September 2014. The Bill will involve amendments to the Adoption Act 2010 in respect of adoption by cohabiting couples - both same and opposite sex couples - and also in respect of step-parent adoption.

As the committee is aware, the Government has undertaken to establish a statutory commission of investigation into mother and baby homes. It is essential that the commission be provided with comprehensive and precise terms of reference from the outset. The tasks to be undertaken and the appropriate range of methodologies to be utilised must be defined to ensure the commission is set up on a sound footing. Given the level of cross-party and public interest in these maters, I am anxious to achieve the widest possible consensus at this crucial stage of the process. I am engaging further with Opposition spokespersons and other stakeholders in order to update them on the emerging issues and seek any further view they may have. Such an inclusive approach will assist the Government in establishing an effective inquiry and I am confident that we can conclude this important phase of the process in a timely manner. Following the finalisation of the terms of reference, it is my intention to bring a memorandum to the Government as soon as possible thereafter, setting out the arrangements for the commission. I will then be in a position to return to both Houses with a draft resolution seeking Oireachtas approval to establish the commission.

In September the Government approved my proposal that the third optional protocol to the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child be signed and ratified by Ireland. The protocol provides for a communication procedure between citizens of participating states and the UN Committee on the Rights of the Child. This move will give children in Ireland a route to the committee to hear complaints on the violation of their rights. This new development underpins a range of Government initiatives to strengthen children's rights. They include the establishment of a dedicated Department to advance children's rights and the establishment of the Child and Family Agency to consolidate and enhance service provision for children and families. It is important in all we do that the child's voice is heard.

A particular focus of the early years quality agenda since the meeting in July has been establishing a national approach to providing support for early years services to help them to improve their quality. The initiative involves bringing together the work done by local child care committees and also by voluntary organisations with a new strand of support, the Early Years Specialist Service. The specialist service will work with a small number of services at a time, helping them to self-evaluate and work on improvements. All of the quality support work will be underpinned by a practice toolkit which is being developed by the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment. The national manager was appointed in July and has been focusing on the establishment of the Early Years Specialist Service. Some 30 specialists have been recruited and are being trained. This is a very exciting development, one which will be of real benefit to services on the ground as it is rolled out. It is welcome that the organisations delivering quality supports have been so willing to come together in the interests of services and the children who use them. It is a reflection of the fact that there is widespread recognition that providing this support in a consistent way nationally is key to improvements in the future.

As the committee is aware, my Department is leading the implementation of Better Outcomes Brighter Future, the first whole of government strategy for children and young people aged 0 to 24 years. The framework sets out key outcomes for children and young people on which the Government and wider society will focus attention to ensure we optimise the best outcomes for young people. The aim and ambition of the strategy are significant and I am pleased to inform the committee that considerable progress has been made in the implementation of the framework. It includes the establishment and convening of the cross-Government consortium to oversee implementation, the establishment of the sponsors group of key Departments with lead responsibility for the five national outcomes, the preparation of an implementation plan for the framework, the identification process for annual priority areas of work to be progressed by each sponsor, as well as the establishment of an advisory council, chaired by Dr. Owen Keenan, which will provide a platform for members of civil society to engage with other structures of Better Outcomes Brighter Futures in order to actively support and guide its implementation.

The first meeting took place last week.

Both the infrastructure and process involved in Better Outcomes Brighter Futures are proving to be an effective model for whole-of-government working. It indicates the clear benefits of ensuring co-ordinated and coherent policy for children and young people to ensure the best outcomes, and I am committed to actively driving this innovative initiative and ensuring that the Cabinet committee on social policy is informed of progress.

I recently announced the competitive process to recruit a new Ombudsman for Children. Members will be aware that the outgoing Ombudsman for Children, Ms Emily Logan, vacated her position on 1 October 2014 to take up a new position as chief commissioner of the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission, and I wish her well in the post. The vacant position will be filled by an open, competitive process as advertised by the Public Appointments Service on 31 October 2014. The process is along similar lines to the process which resulted in the recruitment of Ms Logan as the first holder of the office in 2003. I am particularly pleased with the extent to which children will play a role in the process. Children were involved in developing the person specification for the role and the advertisement for the position.

I recently attended the two consultation events on 20 and 21 October which were both immensely valuable and highly enjoyable. It was great to see children participating in such a novel way to help in the selection of the person whose primary function is to advocate for their rights. A panel of children has also been selected to work with the Public Appointments Service on developing, conducting and evaluating a role play with candidates and in participating in the final interview and selection process. I have confidence that the Public Appointments Service has significant experience and expertise to conduct a professional and impartial selection process that will identify the most suitable candidate for this important role on behalf of children in Ireland. Shortlisting and preliminary interviews will be concluded before the end of 2014 with the final interviews to take place in early January. I hope to have Government approval to submit a motion to both Houses seeking approval to recommend the successful candidate for appointment in the first week the Houses resume sitting in 2015.

Regarding the commission, I have met some members of the Opposition and must meet others in the coming weeks. We are very keen to have an inclusive process and that the terms of reference allow for a timely and sensitive inquiry that will report and answer the questions that many people need answered.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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The committee looks forward to playing its role in any legislation that comes our way and assisting the Minister and Department.

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the Minister and his officials. I am glad he clarified that he must still consult a number of members of the Opposition on the mother and baby homes. What is the delay? While I agree with the Minister that we must be sensitive and get this right, we told the people who suffered terribly at the hands of those who ran these institutions many years ago that an independent investigation would be established before the summer recess. We are almost at the Christmas recess and the Minister still has not given a definitive date for the publication of the terms of reference of the investigation. Can he give the committee a commitment that it will be done by Christmas, that it will be an inclusive investigation and that all institutions that were involved in the practices in question will be covered by the investigation?
Regarding guardians ad litem, GALs, the Minister will agree that vetting is an integral part of child protection. There is no comprehensive system regarding the vetting of GALs. On Sunday I heard on an RTE radio show that the Courts Service has reluctantly agreed to vet the GAL system on a temporary basis. The Minister replied to my parliamentary question on how he would rationalise the service. There is still serious spending on this service at a time, confirmed in replies to questions I submitted, when not every child in care has a dedicated social worker. We still have savage expenditure on the GAL system at a time when not every child in care has a care plan. This is morally wrong and the Minister should prioritise bringing about a system that rationalises the service. I ask the Minister to give a definitive timeframe as to when it will be presented to the members of the committee in order that we can have an input into it.
While the Minister got additional funding in this year's budget for Tusla, it comes nowhere near what the CEO of Tusla has requested to run the organisation. Before the budget, he said he needed an additional €45 million just to stand still, not to do anything better. How can the Minister be confident that Tusla will carry out its obligations effectively when the CEO says it will not have enough money to do so?
Cyberbullying is not mentioned in the Minister's script and it falls between two Departments, as the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources has a role to play. There was, quite rightly, concern about this area with the news that Ask.fm plans to relocate to Ireland. While I am not saying it is the answer to all ills, I produced a report on foot of the independent rapporteur's report last year which identified a legal vacuum regarding cyberbullying. Nothing has happened since the report was published 12 months ago. The Minister might tell the committee when the 2013 report might be published, considering we are almost into 2015. It is a very serious and real issue with serious consequences for the victims but no consequences for the perpetrators. Unfortunately, teenagers have lost their lives as a result of cyberbullying and the Minister must prioritise it. We must address what an independent expert has identified as a legal vacuum in the legislative process to deal with it.
The early years strategy was announced over two years ago and it was promised that it was coming shortly. The sector has been operating without a strategic plan since 2010. What is the delay? Why can we not have a strategic plan for the sector? We have a fully dedicated Department and there should not be a delay. We all will have read the letter in the newspaper this week about a family in the south of Ireland who are struggling and put to the pin of their collar. I do not believe the Government is prioritising the cost of child care. In the last budget there was no meaningful proposal on how we will deal with the cost of child care. A recent OECD report identified Ireland as the country with the highest child care costs, and nothing is being done to address the issue. When the Donegal county child care committee published a report 12 months ago, the then Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, Deputy Fitzgerald, said she would review the existing schemes administered by her Department in terms of what greater support we can provide. However, we have done nothing about it. It is a priority issue, and I eagerly await the Minister's reply on how he intends to deal with it.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome the Minister and his officials. The Minister might indicate the status of filling the vacant Secretary General position in his Department.

Regarding the issue of the mother and baby homes inquiry, I believe that everyone of us would be disappointed that the terms of reference have not been finalised, that the commission has not been established and that the work is under way. However, I will add that I would much rather that the terms of reference were right and inclusive and that all of the required preparatory work was done and done properly. Therefore, I can be patient. I expect that every effort is being made to expedite this process and I have to take what the Minister says on face value. I note in his reply to my Question No. 22, also submitted by Deputy Clare Daly and with a shared response, that he talks about the work of developing the terms of reference now being well advanced and that he will finalise his deliberations in early course. I respectfully ask the Minister to give the committee a sense as to when he expects to have finality, when he expects to go to Cabinet and when he will then come before the Houses with regard to the establishment of the commission and its terms of reference.

I refer to the appointment of Judge Yvonne Murphy as chair of the independent investigation. The Minister may not wish to elaborate on some of the detail that I will ask of him and I will leave it to himself to respond. I wish to record my strong support for the establishment of a commission of investigation that was made up of a number of expert panellists, not only Judge Murphy. I ask the Minister to comment if it is indeed intended to have a wider number of people than a single appointee, as has happened in some of the tribunals in the past.

I am keenly aware of and have strenuously emphasised to the Minister and his predecessors the importance of including the Bethany homes, the Magdalen laundries and the county homes. I am respectful of what the Minister may not yet be in a position to confirm but I ask him to expand on his intentions in relation to inclusiveness. I ask if he would be in a position to advise if he has completed the further round of engagements with a number of non-governmental organisations, specifically the Adoption Rights Alliance, the representatives of the bodies I have just mentioned, the Bethany homes and the Magdalen laundries and others we have discussed recently. What progress has the Minister made with regard to those engagements?

It is very important that we get to a starting point where we can all properly record our full support for the process that will be set in train. I assure the Minister it is my intention - if what he will present ticks those boxes - to be fully supportive. That is always my disposition in relation to matters not only in this regard, but right across the board. I hope that there will not be any need or cause for any discontent. However, far more important than any discontent that I could voice would be the discontent of those who would feel excluded and marginalised, thus compounding a hurt and pain that they have endured historically. It is on their behalf that I make this further appeal to the Minister and his officials.

I have no hesitation in acknowledging that both the Minister and his officials are, in my view, doing all that they have to do. I wish to record my appreciation of the meetings we have had and of those with his predecessors and with his departmental representatives. This is the spirit in which we are approaching this task.

I refer to the Minister's response to Question No. 21 regarding the serious under-provision of social workers for children deemed at risk and those in State care. I note his corrected reply to Deputy Seamus Healy regarding the appointment of 130 social workers since the establishment of the Child and Family Agency. Has the service lost social workers in that period? Is it a net gain of 130 social workers? Are some of the additional 193 posts yet to be advertised? I would hope that there is the widest possible awareness of the opportunity to take up social work positions with the Child and Family Agency. I ask the media reporting on this committee to take the opportunity to signal that there are vacancies for social work positions. I would wish that it would be greater than the 193 signalled as further additional posts currently on offer to candidates.

The Minister has confirmed 9,548 cases waiting to be allocated a dedicated social worker and approximately one third of these - 3,240 cases - were deemed to be high priority. Since we last met and since we last addressed these quite disturbing statistics, we have had the tragic situation of the death of young Hassan Khan, a two year old boy. I do not know who within the Child and Family Agency was directly involved but I would be absolutely confident that the young boy's case was known to Tusla employees, including, I expect, social workers, and that those who were exposed to his story prior to his tragic death would be hugely upset. I am very conscious of their upset and I will not now or in the future contribute to a compounding of their upset. However, it is very important that we have some understanding of the extent of that engagement. We need to know because it is only through knowledge that we will learn the deficiencies within the system. Had young Hassan Khan a dedicated social worker? Will Mr. Jeyes expand on his public commentary which is very minute, thus far? An indication of working with the investigative body is absolutely what we would expect but as a committee and as elected voices who are directly engaged in health and children issues, we have a responsibility to be able to apprise the effectiveness of the systems we have put in place.

If the witnesses are not in a position to shed further light on the extent of the engagement with the young child, I ask that they would undertake to have the information regarding the case brought to the attention of members of the committee. I respectfully request that it could be done at the earliest opportunity.

Jillian van Turnhout (Independent)
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As always, the Minister, Deputy James Reilly, is very welcome, as are his officials. I acknowledge the considerable strides that have been made in recent years in the area of children. We should not forget that when we consider the strategy, the agency and the many commitments. My impatience is due for the need for us to move to the implementation and outcomes for children to ensure the changes have the effect we want, and that we are not just discussing it on paper.

The Minister referred to Children First. Could he explain the reason for the delay in the legislation? I followed the Second Stage debate in the Dáil at the end of April and I would have thought the Bill would move quickly to Committee Stage. I wish to understand the reason we cannot move further because a statutory basis is particularly important in so many areas.

The second area I wish to raise relates to how the committee interacts with the Child and Family Agency. I asked the Minister and the previous Minister if we could have a formal engagement. It would be logical for us to do that in the context of the periodic review with the Minister. It is absolutely critical that we have a very clear and structured engagement with the Child and Family Agency. It is not good enough that we have seen the agency only once this year and it is now November. I wish to put that on record.

I acknowledge the response I received to Question No. 11 which was about homeless children. We read that any child under the age of 16 will go into care and 16 year olds and 17 year olds are “typically more challenging”. I refer to young people who leave care settings. They are more challenging because we as a State have failed them on so many occasions. We have added to their challenges. They probably do not have the mental health supports they need or access to the services they need. They have been failed on several occasions and we continue to fail them by not having the aftercare Bill, to which I know the Minister is committed. The committee reviewed the heads of the Bill very quickly. We must move much more quickly on the issue and ensure that every child is addressed.

It is remiss of us that there are homeless children in the country. We should not accept that. We should get out of the rut of accepting that a certain number of children will be homeless. We must see whether we can do more. I would encourage the Minister to put in place the aftercare Bill. That is part of the reason for wanting engagement with the agency. We must consider what else we can do to ensure children do not get to that precarious situation where we have to read about them in the review panel reports.

I raised child and adolescent mental health services in the Seanad again with the Minister of State, Deputy Kathleen Lynch, because I continue to be concerned about social workers not being able to access the services in a timely and appropriate way. She said she now questions her judgment about whether the service should be moved into the Child and Family Agency. We must ensure the services are in place.

I welcome that the heads of the adoption Bill are due. The difficulty is that in January 2012 the then Minister told us the Bill was forthcoming. For that reason I co-sponsored a Bill with Senators Power and Healy Eames on information on identify which is due to go before the Seanad next Wednesday. We have worked hard to strike a balance. I hope the Minister will give us a fair hearing. Many people are waiting for information on their identity. The difficulty is that for those who wish to make contact, many of the women are getting older as time ticks on and I am most concerned with the delay on this important issue.

When will the 2013 special rapporteur report be published? In response to Deputy Pringle in October, the Minister said it was his intention to lay it before the House in the near future. I accept the Bill has gone out to consultation to the various Departments but when will the Bill be published. In addition, will it show which recommendations are being accepted by Departments or on which they wish to take a different approach? I raised the issue with the then Minister, Deputy Frances Fitzgerald, last year. We are on the seventh special rapporteur report. The reports are valuable but how do we know what happens to the recommendations they contain?

The final issue relates to Questions Nos. 9 and 10 that I asked, which relate to early childhood education. The Minister is well aware I am chair of Early Childhood Ireland. I do not speak in that capacity today but I must declare the interest. I welcome the response on special needs but the reality, as the Minister is aware, is that a child will need additional and appropriate support and to say that it will be two days a week for one year and three days a week in the following year does not meet the needs of the child. We must revisit the situation and examine the flexibility and how we are going to do it.

I also inquired about the inspection regimes for child care settings, of which there are four, namely, the Child and Family Agency, the Department of Education and Skills, Pobal and also an environmental health inspection. The difficulty is the lack of consistency. The child care settings welcome an inspection regime but not four different inspection regimes. One centre told me three inspectors arrived this week at the same time to spend an entire day there. How is one supposed to cope with that? Has a regulatory impact assessment been done to examine the inspection of child care settings and are we absolutely clear about what we expect? I heard of two cases this week of centres that were fully compliant last year which were told they are not compliant because of Garda vetting. If one has worked out of the State previously, vetting and checking from another state is required. One woman who worked 25 years ago in the United States has been told her service is non-compliant because she does not have an FBI check for her time 25 years ago in the USA. I would worry if I was a parent who heard a centre was non-compliant.

My final point relates to the pressure on early childhood centres due to rates bills. I will raise the matter in the Seanad with the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Brendan Howlin, and the Minister of State, Deputy Simon Harris. In one case where 90% of the service involves State-provided services, the centre received a rates bill of €13,000. The State sets the amount of money one gets per child and the space one must have. All the regulations are set by the State and one is not allowed to charge any extra money. Although 90% of the set-up is regulated by the State and one is not allowed to charge any extra money, the centre could receive a bill for €13,000. I have heard similar stories around the country. Many child care centres are close closing and I am fearful that will happen. We must make it viable for centres to provide a quality, affordable service.

James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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I thank members for their questions. I note that Deputy Troy has returned. I will address the terms of reference, which a number of Deputies have raised. The challenge for me and the Department is to set terms of reference that will establish a successful commission of inquiry. We are guided in the first instance by the Oireachtas motion that was agreed earlier this year. We know that at the heart of the desire to get to the truth is the suggestion that bodies of hundreds of children were buried in the mother and baby home in Tuam, County Galway. There is a clear consensus around the need to thoroughly examine the manner in which Ireland treated many mothers who had babies in mother and baby homes. We must give a clear, precise set of terms of reference to the commission to ensure that a wide range of factors relating to mother and baby homes is examined in great detail by the commission. However, if we set the terms incorrectly, the result may be that the commission is robbed of an opportunity to do its work successfully in a timespan that is reasonable and in an efficient manner. I thank Deputy Ó Caoláin for his understanding of the need for thoroughness at this stage.

In the course of meeting with many groups about the establishment of the inquiry, I recognise that there are many issues arising that are wider than the issue of mother and baby homes, but none the less they are issues that people would be keen to include in the commission’s work. I find it difficult to disagree with their view that such issues need to be examined.

If we set terms of reference that are too wide, the commission may be flawed from the start.
The task before me is to try to decide how best to achieve the goals set by the Oireachtas. The commission into mother and baby homes cannot be viewed as a vehicle to inquire into all matters where there was a deficit in the treatment of people. It must be set up to do an achievable task. Should the Oireachtas decide other matters are worthy of separate examinations, such a decision can be reached. The complexity of the issues involved and the need to meet the interested people and stakeholders has given cause to delay, although I do not like using that word, with regard to the expectation that we would have the terms of reference quicker. I agree with Deputy Ó Caoláin that it is better that we do this right than do it quickly. If we do not get it right, we could end up in a protracted tribunal that fails to address the issues the Oireachtas asked us to address. I will not bore committee members with the motion but what the Oireachtas agreed is clear: "to complete the process of identifying the relevant information and records, public and private, pertaining to mother and baby homes in the State in an urgent and timely manner." We can broaden the definition of what constituted a mother and baby home where county homes or other facilities became the provider where there was no mother and baby home in that county. The motion also states the Government should "use the findings of the initial cross-departmental review which is already under way and is to report to the Government no later than 30 June 2014 [which it did] to inform decisions on the scope, format and terms of reference of a commission of investigation; and report back to Dáil Éireann on the establishment of this inquiry, the findings of which should in due course be published before the House rises for the summer recess." We all accepted before the summer recess that this would require more time than originally envisaged. Deputy Robert Troy asked if we would have it before Christmas. It is my intention that we will have it in the next couple of weeks. I want the work to get under way.
The guardianad litem, GAL, issue has been consuming Tusla since its inception and is one that Mr. Gordon Jeyes has been strong on. From previous contributions by me in a different ministerial post, the committee knows of my concern that huge sums of taxpayers' money that should be going to provide services and compensate people who were wronged are going to the legal profession. I bear the legal profession no ill will but this is not what we wanted to happen. We wanted a lean and cost-effective system that leaves the resources to those in need of our support.
The Deputy mentioned it is morally wrong that we have expensive GALs when many children in care have no dedicated social worker or a plan for after-care. The Deputy also mentions the vetting of the GALs. The GAL proposals are being finalised for my consideration and Tusla has made many changes to the structure in regard to the GAL issue. I do not want to become confrontational with Deputy Robert Troy but we inherited it from his party's Government and it has existed for many years and was not addressed. We are going to address this and I would be pleased to have the support of Deputy Robert Troy. Deputy Troy suggests the budget increase is not good enough but that is being disingenuous coming from the party that wrecked the economy of the country and leaves us-----

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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I was quoting Mr. Gordon Jeyes, the CEO charged with the responsibility-----

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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Any remarks must be made through the Chair.

James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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I did not interrupt Deputy Robert Troy. The bottom line is that there has been a budget increase as we have restored the economy through the hard work and sacrifice of the Irish people and we know people want to see services restored and improved as befits a just society and a just republic. That is what we intend to do but we must be realistic in the moneys available to us. I welcome the increase in the budget after so many years of cuts.
Cyberbullying was mentioned and the Government is very much aware of it and concerned about it. We have been engaged with the issue in a cross departmental fashion. An Internet content governance advisory committee is developing an implementation plan. My Department is involved in it. It will require the interaction of the Department of Justice and Equality, the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources and my Department. My officials have offered to meet representatives from ask.fmto brief them on child protection issues. We take the matter very seriously and I take the opportunity to express my sympathy with any of the families that lost teenagers as a consequence of this shocking situation and the habit that has been encouraged by some sites.
Members referred to the early years strategy, the strategic plan for the sector and the cost of child care. The cost of child care will be covered by Mary McLoughlin. The Department spends over €240 million supporting child care. There were increases in children's allowance in the budget.

Ms Mary McLoughlin:

The Deputy referred to the Indecon reports in respect of child care costs. One of the challenges for the Department, which we are working on in the strategy, is the issue of funding services directly, which is what the OECD says you could do, or providing child care costs directly to parents. In the past, we provided the early childhood supplement and the difficulty with that approach was that it did not necessarily go into the sector or provide for places. Part of the early years strategy is setting out a vision of how, when funding becomes available, it is best delivered. We need a clear vision and that is what we are working towards.

James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Ó Caoláin asked about the post of the Secretary General, which will be an appointment managed by the top level appointments committee, TLAC. The appointment is imminent. The closing date for applications was 30 October so matters are in hand and progressing.

I agree with the Deputy about the mother and baby homes investigation. It is important we get it right. The Deputy asked when it is expected to happen and there are still a few groups of people to meet and some Members of the Opposition to meet. A huge amount of work has been done on this.

The Deputy asked whether Judge Yvonne Murphy will act alone in chairing the commission. I have intimated broadly that there will be more than one member of the commission.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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Will it be through public appointment or a ministerial order?

James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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We are in negotiation with suitable individuals. We want to get the best of the people who are very experienced in the area and beyond reproach. We have spoken to a number of people who are of the highest calibre and, if we can land them, we will be very pleased.

The Deputy also referred to the 130 social workers recruited. Another 193 are at various stages of recruitment. The overall number is 1,300 and there is a continual turnover.

We have the funding to increase the numbers and that is our intention. We will keep recruiting until we get to the number that we need but within the funding we have been given. We were given additional funding to achieve same.

The tragic case of Hassan Khan was mentioned. I do not want to address any particulars of that sad case. I do not want to say anything that could be construed or might make what is an appallingly sad situation worse for the family. I can say that it is my understanding that the family had an allocated social worker. As Members will be aware, the case has been referred to the independent child death review group. The group will report in due course. The case will be a priority for the group so that information will be available to us all.

Senator van Turnhout asked a number of questions that I shall try to answer. She asked why there was a delay with the Children First legislation. I have a note on the matter. When the Bill was initiated the House brought forward a number of matters for consideration which have been the subject of a detailed review by my officials. I hope to bring forward a small number of amendments arising out of same which are currently being finalised. I hope that we will be able to move to Committee Stage very shortly because this is a very important Bill.

Officials are also working on the Children's First guidance to reflect both the content of the Children First Bill along with the other child protection legislation. For example, the Criminal Justice (Withholding of Information on Offences Against Children and Vulnerable Persons) Act 2012 and the National Vetting Bureau (Children and Vulnerable Persons) Act 2012. This matter has been raised by Deputies and I am committed to trying to advance it in tandem with the Bill. I am not throwing the issue back at all but acknowledge the work done by this committee. Some of the issues raised are very complex and we want to deal with them before we move forward but it is a priority for us.

The Senator asked about how the committee will interact with the Child Family Agency. The issue has been discussed a number of times within the Department. We know that the HSE comes here and directly engages with the committee. It is clear that the committee would like to interact with the agency. The agency has only been set up so we need to allow it settle and get its feed under the table. We also need to decide whether the agency should come here separately or come along with the Department and be here today as was often done with my other ministry. The matter is still under discussion and I have heard the concerns expressed by members. I want people to have access to the broadest amount of information. Transparency serves us all very well. Figures have been quoted and I think Deputy Ó Caoláin mentioned that around 9,000 children still await the allocation of a dedicated social worker with a third of whom high priority. I welcome that such information is in the public domain. While I do not welcome the scenario, if the information is out there then at least we can try to deal with it in an open and transparent way, and not pretend things are other than what they are.

The Senator asked about the delay in adoption legislation and what is happening with Senator Power's Bill. My Department is examining it at the moment. I got the Bill direct from the Senator and we also got a soft copy. We are looking at the legislation but it is a very complicated area. We have had the legal opinion of the Attorney General who is still studying it and has certain concerns. Without going into specifics at this juncture, I do not believe in opposing a Bill just for the sake of it but how should we deal with it if it is flawed? My Bill is nearly ready and it must take it into consideration. We will continue to look at the legislation and I will revert to both Senator van Turnhout and Senator Power because I know they will support the legislation. Without question we are all trying to achieve the same thing.

Jillian van Turnhout (Independent)
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Yes, without a doubt.

James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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Everybody in this room will know that the Tánaiste has a particular interest in this area as well for obvious reasons as does others like Deputy Anne Ferris. I reiterate what I have said before. I want to make the issue of people having access to information on their adoption and identity as easy as possible but within the law. I want to put as much help around that as possible in order to get the outcome that we would all like to see. However, I cannot ignore the right of a birth mother to privacy if she so demands. In many instances that is not the case and instead it is a lack of information. I take the opportunity to thank the Members for raising the matter again. I want to highlight the fact that we now have an adoption agency that is only too willing and able to provide help. People may not be aware that we live in different times. People who were told they had no right to seek information should revisit the situation.

Senator van Turnhout acknowledged the fact that she is chair of Early Childhood Ireland which we welcome. She asked us to look at the flexibility of the various programmes and whether a risk impact analysis had been carried out on the inspection regime. I have a note on the matter. The Department of Education and Skills is working closely with Pobal and Tusla to reduce the impact on services. Both Pobal and Tusla have tried to minimise the impact of visits by setting out clearly what is required. The impact of regulation will be kept under continuous review. We would all agree here that we need regulation because that is where protection starts. If there is no regulation then it is very difficult to protect children and ensure that the services they are being offered are safe and appropriate.

The Senator raised the issue of vetting. My Department will look at the matter as well. There has been no change however.

Jillian van Turnhout (Independent)
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A Minister can always change things.

James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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It has always been the case that experience abroad must be reflected in vetting.

Jillian van Turnhout (Independent)
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Or be done through the Garda-----

James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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This is for the protection of children.

Jillian van Turnhout (Independent)
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-----and up.

James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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Incidents that happened many years ago can often be very relevant to safety today. We know that only too well from yesterday's Dáil debate. This is in everybody's interest. I know, from having discussed it in the past, that vetting is difficult. An event may have occurred since somebody was last vetted and if he or she is allowed to continue to use their current certificate then false reassurance has been given to the service that employs that person.

Jillian van Turnhout (Independent)
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I have heard that a good many times.

James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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It is not easy. I am very pleased to say that the average vetting time has fallen considerably, from something like 16 weeks down to about six weeks.

The Senator mentioned homelessness. Focus Ireland has said that it is aware that between 25 and 30 young adults nationally are at risk of homelessness who are in hostel accommodation and have a care background. It is also aware that there are between 450 and 500 children each year at risk. This means between 2,500 and 3,000 young people have left care in the past six years. A Bill will be introduced. We are working on legislation to make sure that every child has an aftercare plan for when they leave care. We have all heard of the tragic situations that occur when children leave care where, for all intents and purposes, they fall off a cliff.

Before we break for a vote I want to say that there are no children under 18 years homeless on our streets. They are either in care or an approved supported lodgings or residential accommodation.

I wish to say the following before everyone races to exercise their democratic right. The Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform brought to Cabinet this week a piece of legislation on the rates issue. The bottom line is that not-for-profit organisations will be treated the same as charity.

Jillian van Turnhout (Independent)
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Excellent. I will push for more but the Minister's news is welcome.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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The two last speakers are Deputies McLellan and Maloney. I call Deputy McLellan.

Sandra McLellan (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome the Minister and his officials here this morning. I thank him for his presentation.

I shall commence by mentioning the terms of reference for mother and baby homes. I strongly agree with my colleague, Deputy Ó Caoláin, that it is very important to get this right. We have only one chance so we need to get it right.

I shall now concentrate on the questions I submitted. Question No. 6 asked about the working group for direct provision.

In what capacity is the Department of Children and Youth Affairs represented on that working group? While it is noted that the centre staff are Garda vetted, adults living in close proximity to children to whom they are not related are not Garda vetted. This leaves children at risk. It is not acceptable and more needs to be done to change this environment completely.

Even though children of asylum seekers are linked to local mainstream primary and secondary schools, they are still stigmatised because of their living conditions. They have no space to do their homework and they cannot carry on to third level education because they are not State-funded. This matter also needs to be addressed.

Question No. 7 related to food poverty. The charity, Healthy Food for All, called for a Department policy commitment to address food poverty and childhood obesity. The Minister's reply stated that the Department is not responsible for financial assistance, but surely the Department should have a wide-ranging policy and approach across all the relevant Departments.

Question No. 8 related to the issue of homelessness among young people leaving care. Senator van Turnhout also had a question on the matter. The Minister stated that children between the ages of 16 and 17 are provided a service under section 5 of the Child Care Act 1991. What is the service and what would the Minister define as suitable accommodation? He also stated that some of these children suffer from mental health or learning difficulties. Are all their needs catered for?

The Minister stated that as of December 2013, 639 people over the age of 18 were supported financially through living with their foster parents. For how long after the age of 18 does this financial support continue?

Eamonn Maloney (Dublin South West, Labour)
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I welcome the Minister and his officials. I will not refer to anything previous speakers have adequately dealt with. Question No. 5 relates to the schools completion programme. I want to protest over the fact that the cut went ahead. Before criticising the Department, in the interest of balance I compliment the Department on the speed with which it responded to the difficulties the Respond! housing agency has with its women's refuge for mothers and children in Tallaght that has been operating for about three years. While I know the Minister was not there, we got a very positive reply to the Topical Issue matter.

I know the Minister is well aware of the value of the school completion programme. Essentially it is trying to keep children who were born on the wrong side of the track in school. A variety of activities and not just principally academic activities are included. The overriding difficulty relates to children who, due to their background or circumstances, fall out of the educational system. The school completion programme is a wonderful scheme that operates throughout the country. I am very impressed by the commitment of school principals, teachers and others who work in the schools. They have made it into something valuable for children, who for a variety of reasons may not wish to go to school. Many of us fell into that category in the past.

When the economy collapses, we all understand there is reduced funding for a variety of things. Unfortunately, this programme was included and over recent years the cut has multiplied. As the scheme is under severe pressure because of the reduction in the funding, I wrote to the Department in the hope that the cut would not proceed, but it has gone ahead. I know a review is outstanding.

My principal point is that while we talk about fairness in education and the school completion programme involves 36,000 children nationwide, the funding for this year has been reduced to approximately €25 million. The level of discrimination in education is exposed by the fact that on the other hand another Department pays out €100 million to 26,000 children of the great and good who attend private schools. For every €1 we give to the poorest children in the country to try to get them to go to school, we give €4 to the children of the better off.

James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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I thank Deputy McLellan for her understanding of the terms of reference. She mentioned people in direct provision who are in close contact with children and yet unvetted. That is certainly an issue we will need to look into. I have met the Minister for Justice and Equality to discuss the issue.

The Deputy also mentioned the involvement of the Department of Children and Youth Affairs in proper nutrition. Yesterday in Armagh along with the Minister for Health, Deputy Varadkar, I met the Deputy's party colleague in the North, the Minister for Agriculture and Rural Development, Ms Michelle O'Neill, MLA, and the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety, Mr. Jim Wells, MLA, to discuss this area.

The Department of Children and Youth Affairs has a unique position. We operate in a very different way from most Departments. We do not have a silo effect with specific areas of responsibility to the exclusion of everything else. We operate with a core responsibility for certain matters, but we have impact on and co-operate with the Departments of Education and Skills, Justice and Equality, the Environment, Community and Local Government, and Health. I would say ours is the only Department to have permanent civil servants from other Departments based in our Department. We have people from the Departments of Justice and Equality, Health, and Education and Skills, who belong in other Departments but work in our Department to help co-ordinate and have a more coherent approach to the well-being of children.

Nutrition is a major focus for us. We have Healthy Ireland, which is a cross-departmental initiative to improve the health of the nation. Our equivalent of that in a smaller way is Better Outcomes, Brighter Futures. We look at all that. We look at school nutrition. We look at education and we look at enabling children to help them cook meals themselves, understand the value of food, reduce the reliance on ready-made food and become more self-reliant.

The Deputy's issue is well raised and is one of serious concern, considering the level of obesity, particularly the level of obesity and the incidence of type 2 diabetes in teenagers, which is something I never saw when I was practising as a doctor ten or 15 years ago but now is not unusual. There is no question; it is down to diet and lack of physical activity.

I will ask Ms Clarke to respond to the Deputy's questions on direct provision as well as the question relating to the aftercare service and how long the financial support lasts after they leave.

I come to Deputy Maloney's questions on the school completion programme cut. I was not here yesterday because I was at a North-South Ministerial Council meeting, so my absence was unavoidable.

I apologise for not being there myself, but I am very pleased that the answer Deputy Maloney was given shows that attention is being given to this area. The cut was right across all services. It was part of the comprehensive review of expenditure, CRE. It was probably highlighted later than many of the other ones and therefore possibly stood out. I could not agree with Deputy Maloney more. The school completion programme is extremely important. Everyone knows, and all the statistics show, that if one falls out of education early, one is more likely to end up in trouble, to have social problems and to do less well in life in terms of one's personal financial situation. It is important we encourage people to stay in school and complete their education and it is very important when it comes to minority groups that we encourage them, too, to stay in college. As the Deputy mentioned, the ESRI is doing a review and we look forward to the outcome of that.

I will now hand over to Ms Michele Clarke, who will address some of the questions raised by Deputy McLellan.

Ms Michele Clarke:

The working group on direct provision met for the first time last Monday. I am the representative from the Department of Children and Youth Affairs. We are a very large group and very busy. Our chair, Mr. Justice Bryan McMahon, has set us quite a task to deliver across a range of issues. The tranche I will most directly be involved with is the living conditions of people in direct provision, particularly, from the Department's perspective, in respect of children. I think it was because I am the head of social work in the Department that I was asked to sit on that committee. The expectation is that we would report by Easter, but as our chairperson has said, Easter is coming early this year and we want to do a proper job.

Deputy McLellan had some questions in relation to the use of section 5. There is nothing to preclude any child up to the age of 18 being taken into care, and that would be the preference of the agency. From time to time, a 16 or 17 year old may object to coming into care and feel that this is not appropriate for them, and yet they have needs. They need to be supported if they are not able to live at home. Where they are placed in supported lodgings, these are approved placements with a responsible adult. They are provided in domestic settings where the responsible adult looks after them. This person has been checked from a medical point of view as well as undergoing Garda vetting and has been selected in particular for their suitability to work with teenagers, often teenagers who may not agree that they need to be cared for. An allowance is paid. The numbers are very small. I do not have them to hand, but I can get them for the Deputy if she wishes. The agency prefers to have a child fully in care where that is possible.

The Deputy also had a question on aftercare and young adults who remain living with their foster carers. The allowance can be paid at the moment until they are 23 if they are in full-time education, or up to 21 for those not in full-time education. Tusla, the Child and Family Agency, has a working group which is looking at standardising the payment for aftercare in foster care. At the moment it can be anything up to €365 a week. We have more than 500 young people in aftercare who are in third level education, and issues arise as to what proportion of the allowance should go to the young person and what proportion should stay with the foster carer, since the young person will return home, as college students do.

James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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I thank the committee for its questions and its courtesy and I look forward to working with it for the remainder of the Administration. We are all engaged in the care of children and in ensuring they get the best possible outcome by being allowed to reach their full potential. For some groups of children that requires serious intervention on behalf of the State and for all children it requires the support of the State. We are all focused on the one outcome here and while we might differ occasionally on certain points, I believe that good wishes and good intentions in relation to children are universal. One thing that has struck me since becoming Minister for Children and Youth Affairs is the enormous amount of volunteerism right across this sector. Up to 60,000 people volunteer in youth clubs and that area, and hundreds of thousands are involved in sport in various organisations. I would like to take this opportunity to express my deep gratitude to them and to wish them well in their work.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Minister. I am sorry that our opportunity has been so truncated. There were other points I would have asked, but they will wait.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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Just to remind members, we will not have a formal meeting next Thursday as we will be in Croke Park as part of the Comhairle na nÓg event. We will be in touch regarding next week's meeting and the visit to the national children's hospital site.