Dr. Carol Coulter:

Again, starting with Deputy Ó Caoláin's questions, in my report I warn that the statistics I have collected are by no means the last word. Statistics only ever present snap-shots of situations. When we started out we were not exactly sure what we would find because this is the first time anything like this was done. We collected the information we thought might be available, in particular information on families which had not otherwise been collected, as Dr. Buckley said. It is true that in our figures it appears that neglect is under-represented. Just identifying neglect does not go far enough. It is necessary to see what else might be there. Where we found other triggers for the neglect featuring in the evidence, we noted them even though it is rare that it is one thing or the other. There is a huge amount of overlap.
At this stage I do not propose to alter the way in which we collect data because we will produce cumulative data over three years and if we alter the manner in which we collect it that will distort what we find at the end because we will have new ingredients that will have an effect. That is the answer to the question on tweaking.
We compare our data with the HSE's data but the HSE does not distinguish between court ordered care and children in care. Its figure relates to all children in care but there are differences. We have already identified that, predictably, there is a higher number of children in voluntary care with relatives than in court ordered care. There is likely to be other differences between the children in court ordered care and the children in voluntary care for obvious reasons, where the families come to an agreement with the HSE about the child going into care. The period of time they spend in care are probably different as well. It would require the kind of data collection to which Dr. Buckley referred, which will have to be done by the Child and Family Agency itself to try to dig that bit deeper into some of those figures.
In regard to guardian ad litemcases and judges not speaking to the children, this is just what we have observed. The places where there is relatively little use ofguardian ad litemtend to be the places where there is not a huge volume of child care applications. Dublin uses guardian ad litemfrequently, as do some of the other big cities, but it is at the discretion of the judge. The President of the District Court has organised a number of seminars for her colleagues on child protection matters, which have been attended by specialists in the area. They are voluntary but I understand they have been very well attended. It is the Judiciary itself which would bring about consistency. I hope that with the establishment of a judicial council, where education and training are one its functions, it will permit a huge step forward in regard to the development of consistency among the various members of the Judiciary.

I hope the establishment of a judicial council, one of the functions of which will involve education and training, will lead to a huge step forward in the development of consistency among the various members of the Judiciary. Obviously, there are other issues in relation to how these matters are dealt with by different judges. While we are on the subject of the Courts Service and the Judiciary, I would like to respond to something said by Senator Colm Burke. The Courts Service has alerted me to some anomalies in its figures. It is about to roll out a national template. I hope that next year - certainly the following year - the statistics will be collected on the basis of this national template, which will allow for much better comparisons than those that have existed up to now.

I was also asked about the prevalence of adjournments. I am not sure what can be done in the absence of an increase in judicial resources, by which I mean the appointment of more judges and the support staff they need. The Courts Service, which puts court clerks' bums on seats to ensure courts are open, etc., has lost 40% of its budget since the start of the crisis. I would like to put it on the record that I have seen great dedication from the courts staff and members of the Judiciary, who often sit until 8 p.m. or 9 p.m. to try to clear lists and ensure all cases are dealt with. The courts staff are courteous and helpful to the people who appear. It is not anyone's fault. It is simply the case that there is insufficient capacity in certain parts of the system. Family law has been expanding exponentially over the past ten or 15 years. The system has not been designed to cope with it. That is why it is necessary to do something radical. I know the President of the District Court is constantly juggling the judges that might be available and checking whether an unassigned judge can be sent somewhere to help if there is going to be a long case. It is like trying to pour a gallon into a pint pot. This work is being done without being able to overcome the problems in a meaningful way.

The issue of ethnic minorities is a very complex one. They are disproportionately represented in the system for a number of reasons. Travellers are socially isolated anyway, as we know. I think they are under-represented in our statistics, if anything, because the only basis on which we record that someone is a Traveller is if evidence has been given of that person's circumstances that makes it clear. We do not guess that they might be Travellers. They might be settled Travellers. We only know if evidence is given with regard to a halting site or some kind of discriminatory experience. I think they are under-represented. We have found that when they reach court, the circumstances of the children are often much more extreme than the average, which is quite disturbing. This raises the question of whether the intervention is coming at a very late stage. It is possible that these problems were present in the families in question for quite some time - perhaps some years - before they reached the point of care order proceedings.

We do not have a great deal of evidence with regard to other ethnic minorities and the issue of direct provision. All I can say is that some individual cases in which mothers in direct provision suffered severe mental collapses have come through and ended up in the courts system. One can surmise that direct provision did not help in those cases. In a typical case of this nature, the child was taken into care following a mental health crisis on the part of the mother, who was alone. The mother is sometimes hospitalised until she returns to an even keel, more or less, after a period and the family is reunified. Various individual cases in which such incidents have occurred are reported on the website. While I certainly think direct provision has played a role, it is not the only factor. There are two other factors that we have seen in relation to African families, for example. First, the numbers have been inflated by the fact that unaccompanied minors are frequently African. I am sure the committee will agree it is good they get rescued by the child protection service, as it is likely that many of them would be in very bad circumstances otherwise. Second, there is a cultural issue that relates to African families and to families from certain other ethnic minorities. Families from eastern Europe are also disproportionately represented. They often display child-rearing practices, such as attitudes towards physical discipline, that bring them to the attention of teachers and social workers. This raises wider issues about the integration of ethnic minorities and how we can ensure they are aware of what we regard as our norms.

I think I have responded to most of the matters that were raised. Reference was made to inconsistencies in different care orders. I think they have developed because different practices have existed in various HSE sections over the years. When we consider what is better, we need to focus on the role of data collection in ensuring outcomes for children are measured. For example, we should examine whether there are more reunifications in places where the norm is to have a short-term care order followed by a review. We do not have those data. We have been trying to get them but it has been very difficult for us to do so. We have been asking some of the legal teams concerned whether they can get those data for us. I absolutely agree that the types of orders that appear to produce the best outcomes for families should be examined. At the moment, all we can do is point to something we have found and hope it will prompt a little more investigation.