Ms Ceili O'Callaghan:

I will begin by responding to Deputy Ó Caoláin. When I spoke about outsourcing, I was referring to a very small part of the CFA's role in court proceedings. I wish to clarify that, in my experience, there are many outsourced assessments. For example, risk assessments of alleged perpetrators of abuse would be outsourced by the CFA. I am not aware of any area in Ireland that conducts its own risk assessments. Psychological assessments are outsourced due to the lack of availability of an in-house psychologist. That can go on for a number of months. A similar point can be made with regard to speech and language assessments. The list can be endless. All of these matters relate to court proceedings. As Dr. Coulter suggested earlier - I am interpreting what she said - it is possible there is a two-tier system in this area. It is arguable whether children in court receive services more quickly than other children, but it is a question that needs to be looked at. It is definite that these assessments are outsourced because the CFA or the HSE could not provide them within the required timeframe.

I hope I was not insulting any of my social work colleagues when I spoke about evidence-based assessments. My remarks were meant to be of assistance. The reality at a very basic level is that a newly qualified person with no legal training and no training with regard to producing evidence could find himself or herself on the stand after two months, giving evidence on why a child should remain in the care of the CFA. I believe it is right that social work training is generic in nature. I do not think people in colleges should be trained specifically in child protection. The shortfall occurs in the training they receive from the agency that is employing them in how to perform this very important role. To the best of my knowledge, people are not trained in how to conduct evidence-based assessments. Maybe they receive such training in some parts of the country. I would argue that evidence-based assessments have to be multidisciplinary. Social workers do not work in isolation. Child protection should be done across the professions. Social workers are not qualified to do certain assessments, such as cognitive functioning assessments. There has to be a joining up of services. That is where the outsourcing comes. All the issues that have been raised in the questions cross over in terms of what I am proposing.

Deputy McLellan spoke about the advantages of longer orders. She asked whether I would be worried they might drag on and wondered whether I would be in favour of a specific timeframe. I am suggesting that specific timeframes would avoid the dragging on and the drift. When the CFA makes its first or second application for an interim care order, all parties accept that something has to change and that assessments need to be conducted. A timeframe should be agreed for all that in order that there is an expectation that when those involved come back to court after four or six months, the assessment will be completed and the judge will be able to make a decision on the longer-term plan for the child. The experience at present is that these things tend to drift on for over a year. This links into some of the other things to which I have referred, such as the argument about whether to outsource if provision cannot be made by the CFA.

Such arguments can take months while children are in care separate from their parents. My proposal is on having a mediated agreement at the beginning, with the people to conduct the assessments identified. This would establish an expectation regardless of whether the CFA provided its own staff or whether it outsourced. That argument is a longer-term one but at least this would in some way save a lot in costs in terms of coming back into court every 28 days with four separate legal teams. My main issue is the drift associated with children who remain in care. It would be useful to analyse the children who are unified.If one analysed what happens in the year and a half before children go home, one might find they could go home a lot earlier if there were agreements and set timeframes. That is my experience not only in my current role as a guardian ad litem, but also in the 16 years I practised in child protection. I have always believed this could be done more efficiently. That is where those issues come from.
In regard to legal training, I think the CFA can provide it itself. It pays a lot of money for its own legal advisers and I believe that could be part of the package.