John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The first item is the minutes of the meeting of 2 October 2014. Are those minutes agreed? Agreed. Are there any matters arising from the minutes? Item No. 3 is correspondence received since the meeting on Thursday, 2 October 2014. No. 3B.1 is correspondence dated 24 September 2014 from Mr. Liam O'Mahony, cathaoirleach of the Great Southern Trail regarding the north Kerry railway, to be noted. I propose that we get a comprehensive note from the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport on the development of greenways, to include costs and also the issue of ownership, given that much of this is State property. No. 3B.2 is correspondence dated 3 October 2014 from the HSE regarding travel expenses paid at University Hospital Group Mid-West, to be noted. No. 3B.3 is correspondence received from Mr. William Treacy regarding a failure to be called before the committee, to be noted. No. 3B.4 is correspondence received from the office of the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government regarding a reply to correspondence regarding Pointe Pier in Connemara in county Galway, to be noted. I propose that we refer the original correspondence to the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine and also the Department of Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht for a note on the funding given to this development.

John Deasy (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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Are we meeting with representatives of the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine soon?

Clerk to the Committee:

We are dealing with them next week.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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We now turn to correspondence relevant to today's meeting. No. 3C.1 is correspondence received on 3 October 2014 from Mr. Neil Pakey, CEO of the Shannon Group, regarding briefing material for today's meeting, to be noted and published. No. 3C.2 is correspondence received on 3 October 2014 from Mr. Stiofán Ó Cúláin, CEO of Udarás na Gaeltachta, regarding briefing material, to be noted and published. No. 3C.3 is correspondence received on 3 October 2014 from Mr. Stiofán Ó Cúláin, CEO of Udarás na Gaeltachta, regarding an opening statement, to be noted and published.

Correspondence was received on 3 October 2014 from Mr. Neil Pakey, CEO of Shannon Group regarding briefing material, to be noted and published.

In regard to reports, statements and accounts received since our meeting of 18 September 2014, there are two items. No. 4.1 is from the Insolvency Service of Ireland and No. 2 is from Údarás na Gaeltachta. The accounts are to be noted.

No. 5 is our work programme. Next week we will be meeting with the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine in regard to financial management and reporting on fishery harbour centres. Can we also deal with other matters relating to agriculture or are we confined specifically to that? We had asked for a number of notes on issues.

John Deasy (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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Who is coming in?

Clerk to the Committee:

The Accounting Officer for the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Mr. Tom Moran, is due to appear with his officials. Another meeting is probably also due with that Department on other issues, including the Vote. That is a fairly big issue on its own and it is the only one for which we have given notice. I will speak with the Department.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Can we set another date?

Clerk to the Committee:

Yes.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I have asked for information on the special investigations unit and on the Chief State Solicitor's office regarding compensation and costs relative to Departments, and the process involved. When we get that note we can make a decision.

John Deasy (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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There are current issues in regard to agriculture, such as the funding of farm advisers. Are they germane?

Clerk to the Committee:

Not entirely if we are going to focus on this issue. We can seek a meeting specifically to deal with the Department's Vote and the special investigations unit and the issues raised by Deputy Deasy can be discussed in that context.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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We should try to arrange a meeting at an earlier date with the Department to allow us to address those issues. Do any other issues arise in regard to the work programme?

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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When are we meeting SIPTU?

Clerk to the Committee:

On 27 November.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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Do we know who is coming in?

Clerk to the Committee:

We have given a direction to the three individuals concerned, Mr. Matt Merrigan, Mr. Alan Smith and Mr. Jack Kelly, to appear before the committee. They will basically be compelled to appear. They are the primary witnesses but we will have other witnesses from the Department and the HSE.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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That is done and dusted.

Clerk to the Committee:

It has been agreed from our side.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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That is only one side. One cannot agree on one side.

Clerk to the Committee:

It has been agreed and the direction has been issued. There was correspondence this morning from Mr. Merrigan, which we will be taking up next week.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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What does the correspondence say?

Clerk to the Committee:

It queries legalities of bringing him in, etc. I just need the legal people to examine it first before coming to the committee with the issues.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Can you be more specific about the correspondence?

Clerk to the Committee:

I do not have the correspondence with me but basically he is questioning our authority to give him a direction to come in given that a Garda investigation is ongoing regarding the use of that fund. That is the kernel of his issue, which we have already dealt with in making our submission to the Committee on Procedure and Privileges. It is something on which I would prefer to get a legal briefing from our own legal people rather than have me provide a layman's version to the committee.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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Can we have a copy of the letter?

Clerk to the Committee:

Yes.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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Is it from him or his lawyers?

Clerk to the Committee:

It is from him.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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He is contesting our right to -----

Clerk to the Committee:

He is contesting a number of issues.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Can we clarify if there is a Garda investigation?

Clerk to the Committee:

A Garda file has been opened. That is the information we have given to the Committee on Procedure and Privileges. There is provision in the legislation to deal with that matter and to get declarations from either him or from the committee. We can deal with that as a legal issue. The issues that are being raised now are primarily ones in which we need to take legal advice and to deal with as a legal matter.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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It is a matter of urgency if they are due on 17 November.

Clerk to the Committee:

That is right. It will have to be dealt with next week.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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That is fine, as long as we can get a copy of the letter.

Clerk to the Committee:

That is fine.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The other outstanding matter pertains to Dublin Docklands Development Authority. How are we going to finalise that?

Clerk to the Committee:

That is a difficulty. I have made efforts to contact Professor Brennan but I have been unsuccessful in getting a response from her since her last letter.

John Deasy (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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What is the position with regard to the legislation? It could impact the banking inquiry if investigations are ongoing and the inquiry wants to bring people in. Is the legislation not clear with regard to us compelling somebody?

Clerk to the Committee:

There is provision in the Act in regard to doing something where there is a Garda investigation. That is my layman's understanding. In cases where the committee has made it clear that it will not be pursuing that issue, there is provision in the Act to allow a person who is compelled to go to the Garda to get a declaration on the matter. Safeguards are built into the Act. That is the point we will be making but, again, it would be preferable to hear the legal clarification from our legal people next week.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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Have we not compelled him?

Clerk to the Committee:

Yes, that is right.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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This manoeuvring is something new and it is despite the fact that we have compulsory powers. We have been granted compellability.

Clerk to the Committee:

Yes, we have.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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Legal action is still open.

Clerk to the Committee:

We have been granted compellability but the issue that is clouding it is that a Garda file was opened a number of years ago because when the internal audit unit of the HSE first raised the issue there was a concern that money was missing. It has subsequently been established, and the Comptroller and Auditor General's report would have confirmed this, that no issue arises in regard to missing funds. Everything was accounted for but when we inquired of the Garda Síochána approximately one year ago, it had not closed the file. That is one of the issues about which he is concerned.

John Deasy (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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Notwithstanding the fact that the file has not been closed, if the legal advice is that we are entirely within our rights we are going to go there.

Clerk to the Committee:

I presume that we will reply to Mr. Merrigan along those lines.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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We have set our date for the meeting and this letter has now arrived.

Clerk to the Committee:

It only arrived this morning.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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We will get legal advice on it but as far as the committee is concerned, the date has been set. We have compellability; that has been passed by the Committee on Procedure and Privileges which, I am sure, has taken legal advice. When the parliamentary legal adviser considers the matter, we will establish the reply and proceed from there.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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What option will be open to him at that stage - to injunct us?

John Deasy (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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I presume he can challenge us in the High Court.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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That is the only avenue.

Clerk to the Committee:

That would probably be one of the avenues open to him.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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We should not go there until we see the letter. We will get the legal advice, make our reply and take it step by step from there. There are lots of avenues open to Mr. Merrigan.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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We are getting internal legal advice.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I note in the Order Paper for the Dáil that a motion has been tabled regarding the Oireachtas Commission instructing legal representatives on proceedings initiated against this committee in the matter of Angela Kearns v. Deputy John McGuinness and others. Where are we as a committee in terms of the legal advice we are receiving?

Given that the motion is going through the House today, I would have thought that we should be in a position to receive and our legal representatives could come before us to give the legal position in this case. I am looking for an update.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The motion will go before the House today. We can arrange for an update from the parliamentary legal advisers in the course of next week. It is coming to a point now where we will be submitting our defence. The motion is just part of the process of us getting there.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I would ask that they would come before us.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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We can arrange that. That will be done.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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The intention is to take the motion without debate.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Yes. We have agreed the work programme. Is there any other business? As there is no other business, we can agree the agenda for Thursday, 16 October when we will deal with the Comptroller and Auditor General special report No. 82 on the financial management and reporting for fishery harbour centres.

Before we call on the witnesses, are there other outstanding reports? There is the Cork VEC report, is there not?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

That is not finalised yet. I have it on my table at the moment and am reviewing it.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Has that gone through the process of-----

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

It has gone through first clearance and once I have reviewed it, it will go back out for a final clearance.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Back out to where?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

To the Department and Cork VEC.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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It will be a while yet before-----

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

Yes, it will be. There is a report on the governance and financial reporting in the National College of Art and Design and there is one on Bord na gCon, the development of Limerick stadium. They have not been presented yet, but they are with the Ministers.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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What is the timeframe after that?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

They have three months from the date that I send the reports to them. In one case, the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, it is there about a month. In the other case, I think it is more recent. No, both of those are there for about a month. There is also one on audit committees in semi-State bodies which I completed and which went just last week to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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We should see those coming on stream within the next three months.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

The committee will have to see those. There are a number of others at earlier stages of development.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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We have no reply yet from the Department of Education and Skills on the document it received. I think it was Cork Institute of Technology.

Clerk to the Committee:

There is no report back on that yet.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I ask the clerk to remind them.

Clerk to the Committee:

I will.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Ross asked last week about the financial accounts for IMMA.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

The Irish Museum of Modern Art. That has been signed.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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They have arrived.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

The certificate is now with IMMA.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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I thank Mr. McCarthy.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

It is for IMMA to present the financial statements to the Minister and for the Minister to present them to the Dáil.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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Into the Library.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

In the Library, yes.