Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees

Thursday, 5 June 2014

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Environment, Culture and the Gaeltacht

Forthcoming Environment Council: Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government

10:00 am

Photo of Kevin HumphreysKevin Humphreys (Dublin South East, Labour)
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I welcome the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Phil Hogan, and officials from his Department, Mr. Owen Ryan, principal officer; Mr. Paul McDonald, principal officer; Ms Emer Connolly, principal officer; Mr. Dominic O'Brien, assistant principal officer; and Mr. Alex Hurley, administration officer. The Minister is well used to giving evidence so I am sure he knows what I am going to say by heart but I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

10:05 am

Photo of Phil HoganPhil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Chairman and members for inviting me to discuss the agenda for the next meeting of the Environment Council, which takes place next Thursday, 12 June in Luxembourg. This will be the final Environment Council of the Greek Presidency and it takes place in advance of major changes in the EU institutions in the coming months. In fact, those changes have already commenced with the recent elections to the European Parliament, the eighth Parliament to be directly elected. In the coming weeks, key positions in the Parliament will be filled, positioning MEPs to play a key role in the co-decision procedure which underpins the development of EU legislation and policies.
There are two substantive legislative items for discussion on the agenda next week. The first is an orientation debate on a proposal from the European Commission for directives on a clean air policy package for Europe. The second items is a first reading of a regulation providing for a restriction on or prohibition of the cultivation of genetically modified organisms, GMOs, in member states' territories.
Clean air is an issue I feel very strongly about and to which I have devoted much time and effort in recent years. We have had some notable success in Ireland addressing very severe air pollution problems, which resulted primarily from the widespread use of smoky coal in our cities during the 1980s and 1990s. These emissions still occur, however, albeit at a lower level, and the science now indicates that air pollution, even at low levels, impacts on health. The Environmental Protection Agency reports higher levels of such air pollutants in some of our smaller towns than in our larger cities, where smoky coal and other solid fuels continue to be used for home heating.
We cannot afford to be complacent. Many EU member states are still falling short of agreed EU air quality standards. Here in Ireland, the air pollution guidelines of the UN World Health Organization are not fully being met. One need only recall the threats to human health posed by elevated air pollution events earlier this year in the United Kingdom and France to understand the risks for citizens. Air pollution does not recognise borders and can affect regional neighbours. The risks posed by transboundary air pollution can only be addressed through international co-operation. In this context, under the auspices of the North-South Ministerial Council, I initiated a cross-Border study to consider how best to address residential solid fuel emissions on an all-island basis.
The EU's clean air policy package, unveiled in December 2013, is the culmination of a major review of air policy that began in early 2011. It follows extensive consultations that found broad support for EU-wide action in this area. The content of the EU's proposal was considered by an air science policy forum which I hosted in Dublin during Ireland's EU Presidency last year. The forum considered the most up-to-date scientific research on air pollution and human health and the environment, and this informed subsequent discussion by EU environment Ministers. The package includes a proposal for a revised national emission ceilings directive, with stricter national emission ceilings for five main air pollutants, including fine particulate matter - a pollutant which strongly correlates with health impacts. The proposed emission ceilings for 2020 are broadly in line with Ireland's own national projections, but proposed ceilings for 2025 and 2030 would require further action. In the case of ammonia, from 2020 onward, further abatement measures will be required, beyond those already agreed for 2020. This will present a challenge for the agriculture sector, which is responsible for the vast majority of these emissions and is projecting growth in line with ambitions under Food Harvest 2020. My officials are in ongoing discussion with the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine on this matter.
The package also includes a proposal for a new directive to reduce pollution from medium-sized combustion plants, with outputs of between 1 and 50 MW, such as energy plants for large buildings and small industrial installations. The proposal also aims to take account of compliance costs, the impact on small and medium-sized enterprises, and keeping the administrative burden at the lowest possible level while at the same time providing minimum levels of protection to safeguard human health and the environment. By 2030, the clean air policy package aims to avoid 58,000 premature deaths. Health benefits alone from the package could save society €40 billion to €140 billion in external costs and provide billions in direct benefits due to higher productivity of the workforce, lower health care costs, higher crop yields and less damage to buildings. It is estimated to have a positive net impact on economic growth.
Ireland enjoys cleaner air than many of our European neighbours due to a variety of factors, including meteorological conditions, limited smokestack or heavy industry, and implementation of European as well as national clean air policy initiatives. However, challenges remain to ensure our air quality is protected and enhanced into the future. It is important that we look at clean air policy in the broader context, not just in isolation. We must consider the wider benefits by taking account of impacts and synergies with other policy areas, such as health, climate, transport, economic productivity and so on, in framing new policies and approaches. The Irish position will continue to support measures that have been demonstrated to be cost-effective, achievable and which support related policy briefs.
As regards GMOs, the Presidency is seeking political agreement on a proposed amendment to Directive 2001/18/EC on the deliberate release of GMOs. The amendment, if progressed, will allow member states to restrict or prohibit the commercial cultivation of GMOs in their territory under defined criteria. Since the Commission originally proposed this amendment to the deliberate release directive back in 2010, Ireland has been generally supportive of the concept of individual member states possessing greater powers in this area. We previously expressed some reservations on the legal compatibility of the proposal with Internal Market rules and the rules of world trade agreements. However, Ireland has adopted a more positive view on the file as the text has developed. The draft submitted to Council has significant support across member states and I propose to vote in favour of it. None of the GM crops currently authorised for commercial cultivation within the European Union is considered relevant to Irish agriculture. In that sense, Ireland would not have an immediate need to consider implementing the provisions of the proposal. Indeed, we can learn from the initial experiences of other member states.
Moving on to the non-legislative items on the agenda, the Council will discuss draft conclusions on the Convention on Biological Diversity, CBD, and will hold a policy debate on the 2030 framework for energy and climate. While my colleague, the Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht, Deputy Jimmy Deenihan, has lead responsibility for nature and biodiversity matters, I will represent Ireland at Council in the discussions on this topic.
The Council conclusions set out the EU position in preparation for a number of forthcoming meetings, namely, the 12th meeting of the conference of the parties to the CBD; the first meeting of the conference of the parties to the Nagoya Protocol on Access and Benefit-Sharing; and the seventh meeting of the conference of the parties to the Cartagena Protocol on Biosafety. Ireland can strongly support the overall aims and themes of the conclusions around the importance of biodiversity and ecosystem services and the need to step up efforts to halt the loss of biodiversity.
The Council conclusions reflect and highlight some of the achievements of the EU, particularly in regard to the progress on the strategic plan for biodiversity. Later this year, my colleague, the Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht, expects to publish a mid-term review of the implementation of Ireland's national biodiversity plan, which will highlight Ireland's contribution to both EU and international progress on the CBD objectives.
The conclusions also aim to re-emphasise the commitments made to ratify the Nagoya Protocol, with a view to having the first conference of the parties and meeting of the parties to the protocol. The Department of Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht is working with other Departments and agencies to determine the practical requirements to give effect to the Nagoya Protocol. In that regard, ratification is likely to occur in 2015.
The Cartagena Protocol, the third element of the Council conclusions, seeks to protect biodiversity from potential risks arising from the transboundary movement of any living modified organisms, resulting from modern biotechnology that may have an adverse effect on the conservation and sustainable use of biological diversity. There are 167 parties to the protocol, and all EU member states, including Ireland and the EU itself, are parties. The protocol was adopted as a supplementary agreement to the Convention on Biological Diversity. A programme of work associated with the Cartagena Protocol is discussed and approved by meetings of the parties which take place every two years.
Ireland supports the overall EU position outlined in the conclusions. In particular, we welcome the call for parties to agree a realistic budget consistent with the agreed strategic priorities, functions and programme of work for the effective implementation of the Cartagena Protocol. Adopting this more pragmatic approach should reduce the need for ad hocrequests for additional voluntary funding for inter-sessional activities as has occurred previously.
At its March meeting, the European Council agreed to have a stock-take of the proposed policy framework for climate and energy in the period to 2030 at its June meeting, with a view to the European Council taking a decision on the headline targets in October 2014. It is in this context that the Environment Council will consider elements of the framework at its meeting on 12 June. Responding to the recent communication from the Commission on a policy framework for climate and energy in the period from 2020 to 2030, the European Council has stated that "a coherent European energy and climate policy must ensure affordable energy prices, industrial competitiveness, security of supply and achievement of our climate and environmental objectives". The emphasis on the need for coherence between greenhouse gas emission reductions, renewable energy and energy efficiency is central to a cost-effective policy framework and security and affordability of energy supply for households and business.
This initial direction from the European Council puts the cross-sectoral nature, scale and importance of the 2030 challenge in clear perspective. Priority elements still to be agreed with a view to the EU decision in October 2014 include the question of EU headline targets, in particular the greenhouse gas emission reduction target and the proposed EU-wide renewable energy target, as well as the general principles accompanying the framework such as effort-sharing and the proposed governance structure. Ireland has previously outlined its concerns regarding some elements of the framework proposal. We are continuing our engagement with the Commission at all levels to clarify the possible implications for Ireland and ensure a fair and cost-effective solution is reached. This work will continue and intensify in the coming weeks and months.

While dealing with climate matters, let me also touch on any other business item in regard to the Kyoto Protocol. In December 2012, at the Doha climate change conference, the parties to the Kyoto Protocol adopted the so-called Doha amendment which, inter alia, establishes a second commitment period under the Kyoto Protocol from 2013 to 2020, with legally binding greenhouse gas emission reduction commitments for specified parties, including the EU and its member states. The formal entry into force of the Doha amendment is an important objective for the EU. This requires 144 of the 192 parties to the Kyoto Protocol, including the EU and its member states, to deposit their instruments of ratification. The proposal for a Council decision aims to achieve ratification on behalf of the EU. The proposal remains under discussion within Council, with a view to adoption this year.
I should add that Ireland's emission reduction commitment in the second commitment period, like those of the EU's other member states, is the same as that under existing EU legislation so no additional commitment is being entered into as a result of ratification of the Doha amendment. Ireland's ratification of the Doha amendment involves a formal Government decision and the passing of a resolution in Dáil Éireann, preparations for which have commenced.
Turning briefly to national climate policy matters, on 23 April last, I released a national climate policy position and the general scheme of a climate action and low-carbon development Bill. The national position provides a coherent, high-level policy direction for the adoption and implementation by Government of plans to enable the State to pursue and achieve transition to a competitive, low-carbon, climate-resilient and environmentally sustainable economy by 2050. Complementing the national policy position, the general scheme of the climate action and low-carbon development Bill provides a statutory basis for this national transition objective, via the preparation of successive five-yearly national low-carbon roadmaps and successive national climate change adaptation frameworks. I take this opportunity to thank the committee for its report on the outline heads of the Bill and I look forward to further engagement with it on the proposed provisions as the Bill progresses through the Oireachtas.
Coming back to next Thursday's Council agenda, over lunch we will have an informal discussion on the current state of play in regard to the outcome of the Rio+20 conference. We are currently awaiting details from the Greek Presidency on the nature of these discussions so I am not in a position to elaborate further at this stage.
At the end of the day's business, the Council will consider a number of items under the any other business heading, including the current state of play on a proposed regulation on emissions from maritime transport and a proposal for a directive on plastic carrier bags. Ministers will also receive information on a number of issues, including endocrine disrupters, highly fluorinated substances and the work programme of the incoming Italian Presidency. Detailed debate is not expected on any of these items.
This is a brief run-through of the main items for next Thursday's Council agenda. I will be happy to deal with any questions members may have. My officials will be glad to take any technical questions or questions on the working groups.

10:15 am

Photo of Kevin HumphreysKevin Humphreys (Dublin South East, Labour)
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I thank the Minister for his opening statement and his officials for attending. The Minister mentioned the climate action and low-carbon development Bill and rightly said that many members worked extremely hard over the past summer developing the report given to him. Will he confirm whether that Bill will be introduced in the Dáil before the summer recess?

Photo of Phil HoganPhil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I expect to go to Government before the summer recess with the conclusions on our final piece of legislation with a view to publication. We will be glad to facilitate members and take into account many of the good views that came from this committee. I am not in a position to say when it will go to Government but I hope it will be in the next couple of weeks.

Photo of Kevin HumphreysKevin Humphreys (Dublin South East, Labour)
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The Minister indicated that he may set up the expert advisory group on an ad hocbasis. Is that still his intention?

Photo of Phil HoganPhil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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It has been my intention all along to do that but there has been a slow down in finalising some of the people who were being proposed for that expert group. I hope that with the assistance of the Acting Chairman, we might be able to resolve that shortly.

Photo of Hildegarde NaughtonHildegarde Naughton (Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister for attending. I have two questions, the first of which is on the policy framework for climate and energy 2020 to 2030. Does the Minister consider Oxfam's call for binding national targets of energy savings of 40%, boosting sustainable renewable energy by 45% and reducing emissions by at least 55% by 2030 possible? Will Ireland support the current proposals in this framework or will we look for more ambitious targets? What exactly is proposed in regard to the proposal for a directive of the European Parliament and the Council for the monitoring, reporting and verification of carbon dioxide emissions from maritime transport? Are we talking about CO2 detectors on board commercial ships or what enforcement mechanisms are envisaged there?

Photo of Phil HoganPhil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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As the Senator knows, we will not have defined national targets in our legislation but we will comply, as we are obliged to under EU law, with EU binding targets. That is the role we are playing, in line with other EU member states. The binding targets in regard to renewable energy are matters for the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Rabbitte. This will form part of the sectoral plans which will come from each Department, arising from the enactment of our climate Bill this year. Much work is going on in each of the relevant Departments, in particular in the Departments of Agriculture, Food and the Marine and Transport, Tourism and Sport, to ensure we meet our obligations. There are many challenges on the renewable energy side. Even though we have indicated our targets for 2020 as part of our objectives, we are aware there are many challenges in meeting those targets, not least 2020, but going forward what our level of ambition should be for 2030. There are indicators from the modelling we are doing that renewable energy targets, because of the some of the controversies, will be more difficult to meet. I am sure the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources will be glad to outline them in more detail. I do not want to pre-empt what will be brought forward in any sectoral plan or in his policy papers in regard to his role in his Department in meeting our national climate change objectives.

In regard to maritime transport, I will ask one of my officials who is dealing with that area to respond.

Mr. Owen Ryan:

I am not sure if I understood the question.

Photo of Phil HoganPhil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Will the Senator ask the question again?

Photo of Hildegarde NaughtonHildegarde Naughton (Fine Gael)
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It relates to what exactly is envisaged in regard to monitoring and verification of CO2 emissions on board commercial ships. Are we looking at CO2 detectors? What exactly is envisaged in regard to the enforcement mechanisms on board these commercial vessels?

Photo of Phil HoganPhil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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We will come back to the Senator on that. The relevant official is not here but we will take a note of that.

Photo of Michelle MulherinMichelle Mulherin (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Will the Minister update us on the roadmap for our transport emission targets? In that context, could we make a move towards the utilisation of liquid gas so as to displace dependency on petrol and diesel, which I understand would just require a simple modification to a vehicle? However, I believe this would have to be policy driven. I say this with the commercial benefits in mind. Hopefully, we will see gas coming from the Corrib gas field and I know there is a plant in the south of the country looking for permission to produce liquid gas. As a more immediate step towards reducing our transport emissions, we need to look at something like this. We will not displace petrol, diesel or oil unless we have viable alternatives when people go to the pumps or to their filling stations.

I am talking about it even as an alternative to the electricity chargers. As things stand, they will only take off, from a cost and an effectiveness point of view, in cities and on short journeys. In the rural areas I represent, I cannot see them taking off unless there are advances in technology and in the output from the batteries.

In the context of the framework for energy and climate, which is under discussion, I note the Commission's proposals will set out a new set of indictors to ensure a competitive and secure energy system. I think the Minister also mentioned an affordable system.

That will be the crunch point for the ordinary person who has a problem with energy poverty. We are aware that many people cannot afford to fill their oil tanks in winter. Renewables are more expensive to develop. What is the plan to make fuel more affordable in the long term as we invest in renewables? I understand the initial start-up is more costly but what is the plan to make fuel costs more affordable for the ordinary domestic consumer?

I say that in the context of the maintenance and renewal of local authority housing stock. Additional funding for same was made available by the Government recently. Windows and doors are replaced and external insulation is provided. I am concerned that the heating systems that are being upgraded and installed in houses are traditional oil fired central heating, which can mean people are dependent on oil. However, if they cannot afford to put oil in the tank they buy coal each week. How will such a person avoid carbon tax? What choice does somebody in that situation have? The questions are relevant. Unless people can see the benefit of renewables in the short to medium term and are assured that they will not face more and more cost which they cannot afford we will not win the debate. There is a vague idea that there will be a reduction in cost to the consumer but it must be outlined more clearly for public discourse in order for people to decide whether that is the way forward. People want to be environmentally responsible but we have become dependent on fossil fuels for technology and lifestyle and the transition cannot be unduly burdensome. That is recognised by the Department when it comes to business and it is acknowledged that we must be realistic when achieving targets.

We are trying to introduce measures to ensure biodiversity but there is a gap in knowledge among the general public. I include myself in that regard. We need to learn more about the importance of biodiversity and the environment. There is no educational policy on biodiversity other than the green flag initiative which is more prevalent in primary schools than in secondary schools. Young people get an appreciation of what is involved. They look at ecosystems on a minute basis. In most cases we pass such things by and do not appreciate the value of taking measures to preserve biodiversity. There is a need for renewable energy policies, wind energy and biodiversity to feature more in the education system at primary and secondary levels and not be left to the individual as to whether he or she wants to embrace a sustainable, environmental response to the way we live and how we engage with the environment. We must be more proactive.

10:25 am

Photo of Phil HoganPhil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Mulherin has asked a number of questions. Overall, the reason for the approach we are taking in terms of the climate and energy agenda is due to the fact that in the past it was always left to the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government to be concerned with such matters but now every Department must produce sectoral roadmaps on how they will comply with the objectives to which they contributed that are set at Government level. It is not just a matter for the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government per se and for it to take the lead action. The Department co-ordinates the approach to take. There is a good reason we have gone along the lines mentioned by the Deputy. There are enormous challenges to reduce emissions in transport, energy and agriculture and to accelerate the type of initiatives we need to have in order to meet our targets in 2020. We have no chance of meeting our transport targets on renewables by 2020 at the current pace. It would be worthwhile for the committee to have a discussion with the Departments to see what progress is being made in agriculture, transport and energy. They will be able to elucidate the discussion on issues relevant to them rather than the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government in terms of meeting objectives and what policy changes are required in order to deal with many of the issues to which the Deputy referred.

Deputy Mulherin is correct that the roll out of electric vehicles is very patchy and small in relative terms. That goes for all the renewable transport initiatives which are rather difficult to attain at the moment. I would welcome a debate on the sectoral roadmap preparations. Some of the issues raised by Deputy Mulherin could be included for discussion. The programmes necessary to roll out the roadmaps will become clear.

That brings me to the energy retrofit scheme to which Deputy Mulherin referred. An excellent model has been developed by the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Sustainable Energy Ireland and the local government system. A model has been developed for local authority housing stock by which local authorities can help each other in order to meet the objectives of some of the energy retrofit schemes.

The Minister, Deputy Rabbitte, is faced with difficult challenges arising from the collapse of the green deal in the UK, for example. We were considering how we could replicate the scheme in government and then we discovered there were difficulties with the scheme. One cannot replicate something that has gone wrong in another jurisdiction. We were fortunate to learn from that. Equally, the Minister is trying to progress with the energy companies, in particular the ESB, an opportunity by which we can make it easier for people to pay for initiatives they can take in terms of retrofitting their home.

If one wants to change behaviour the way to do it is by means of financial instruments. If we want to achieve our objectives on energy and climate change if the fiscal instrument is to have a carbon tax then we cannot have it every way. However, I agree that we must have compensatory mechanisms for people in fuel poverty arising from the tax. There is no avoidance of carbon tax. It is an issue with which we must deal, but we must ensure that the tax is targeted at the areas that are environmentally bad and try to accentuate the good practice in exemptions for the products we are trying to promote. An example of the approach is smoky fuels. An all-island study is currently taking place on the issue. One cannot deal with smoky fuels if one has a smuggling regime that will circumvent much of the policy instruments that have been introduced in order to change behaviour. We can demonstrate that there are alternative products on the market that are as competitively priced that can meet higher efficiency targets for fuel output and heating. At the same time we will be able to deal with some of the issues mentioned such as a clean air policy and whether to exempt products or introduce a sliding scale of treatment on the implementation of carbon tax for those alternative products. Fiscal measures always change behaviour. I do not think it will be any different in future if we are serious about meeting the objectives of the agenda.

I agree with Deputy Mulherin about the lack of education on biodiversity. We have a national plan which is currently being reviewed. Part of the review should include how we will provide more education on the issues raised. The green flag scheme in schools is great but it will take a long time for good practice to percolate through the generations. I have extended the green flag opportunity to secondary schools and to third level. I hope the programmes will help people and that as pupils come through the primary sector they do not forget about the good practices with which they have been engaged when they go other parts of the education sector.

There are considerable opportunities in Deputy Mulherin’s part of the world for study opportunities and tourism on the raised bogs in the Céide Fields and the surrounding area, which is one of the finest and most valuable areas of biodiversity protection in north Mayo. I accept what the Deputy said. Perhaps we could review how we promote the protection of biodiversity in the context of the review of the national plan during the course of this year.

Photo of Michelle MulherinMichelle Mulherin (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I refer to the situation of a local authority tenant in a council house who has had a heating system upgrade.

I understand that some boilers may be more efficient. Why are people being forced to use oil or coal? The following example may illustrate my point. A voluntary housing association in my area upgraded houses by putting solar panels on the roof. This is a carbon reducing measure. I am not aware that the local authorities pursue similar initiatives in their housing stock. How will the carbon tax act as a driver of change? Will people only have the option of being cold in their houses?

10:35 am

Photo of Phil HoganPhil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Sustainable Energy Ireland is driving this scheme on behalf of the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources but we will present the views the Deputy has expressed during our conservation with them and get clarification on them.

Photo of Paudie CoffeyPaudie Coffey (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Mulherin has raised many of the points I wish to raise and I concur with her and will elaborate on them.

We are in no doubt that it is very challenging to reduce carbon emissions across various sectors. Achieving such reduction will require co-operation across many levels, from the EU to Government and Opposition parties, sectoral interests,non-governmental organisations and the public. We all have a responsibility to engage in an open and robust debate on the subject. I am concerned about political point scoring. The NGOs call for climate change legislation, a justified call, and look for targets to be set. However when 'progress' is being made, for example on renewable energy and proposals for wind farms, there are objections. We cannot have it every way. Sometime soon we must own up to our responsibilities. If we want to reduce our dependence on oil and coal, we must support wind farms, biomass, hydro power and what other renewable sources are available. What I see in my own constituency is that when a proposal is made for a wind farm or for a hydro scheme, people are conflicted by the need to protect the biodiversity and the eco systems and use these arguments against the proposals. There are many conflicting elements that stall the progress of reducing our emissions. I think we need to be open and frank about the issues and I would like to hear the Minister's views on that.

The EU has a major role in helping to co-ordinate and to incentivise alternatives in the renewable energy sector. The Minister mentioned that we need to change our behaviour and our work practices. Three areas have been identified as presenting major challenges and we need to change old dependencies in the agri-sector, industry and transport. A great deal of work needs to be done to bring these sectors together with the public with us. Let me give some examples. The clean air package is one such example. Traditionally people in small towns, villages and in rural areas have had a high dependency on coal, especially in my region as we do not have access to turf and other burning fuels. Deputy Hogan mentioned that the small towns are contributing to the emissions and that is the reason the clean air package needs to be addressed. The Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland, SEAI appeared before the committee recently. An open fire is only 20% efficient as 80% of the heat goes up the chimney. We have incentives for wood pellet boilers, geothermal systems which are justified but they are expensive to install and following installation they are very difficult to manage and control. In the context of our concerns about fuel poverty I raised the issue of incentivising the installation of a simple stove at that meeting, as a stove has the reverse efficiency of an open fire and is 80% efficient with 20% of the heat going up the chimney. They are quite cheap. I accept they still depend on solid fuel, but their use will reduce the amount of fuel used as well as the level of emissions. It is a great deal cheaper to install it in the houses that Deputy Mulherin has spoken about. We can have a major impact by introducing small interventions rather than trying to intervene with high cost renewables that have a low impact. I ask the officials from the SEAI and others to consider the 80% impact rule, whereby low level interventions achieve a high level of return. There should be incentives for simple measures. A simple stove can achieve that. I am only using the stove as an example of what we can do to assist in reducing our carbon emissions and also to assist in taking on board the concerns regarding fuel poverty.

The EU targets a 58,000 reduction in premature deaths. I presume that relates to deaths from asthma or cancer related illnesses from the air we breathe. Will the Minister clarify if it relates to carcinogens from industry? Why has that target been set?

Does the clean air package apply to waste management facilities? When it is proposed to install waste management facilities in particular areas the public raises objections on the grounds of odour and air quality. Does this clean air package that will be discussed at EU level relate to waste management facilities also?

We all agree that we play our part in the conservation and protection of our eco systems. I know flooding has been raised in the past at various levels. I have genuine concerns about the recent flooding, where a riverbank burst its banks and results in extensive flooding. This has had a significant negative impact on agriculture, agricultural output and most important on the dwellings that have been flooded. There is a conflict between trying to protect our eco systems but when floods occur there are considerable restrictions on people repairing the riverbank and returning their lands to normal agricultural practice and getting into their homes. I have had direct experience of it in County Waterford, where the River Suir breached its banks a couple of months ago due to the heavy rainfall in February. When the people who had to leave their homes because they were flooded went to repair the banks, the bureaucratic barriers they faced were significant. They needed waste permits, planning permission, environmental impact assessments. All of this is feeding into a negative reaction from residents in a huge hinterland to protecting diversity and biological habitats. These farmers have lived along the riverbanks for generations and have protected these habitats and they are now being forced into a negative reaction to special areas of conservation, SACs. There is public opposition which needs to be addressed.

Introducing policies and directives are all very well but unless the public buys into them we will face significant opposition. I support protecting eco systems and biological diversity but I am calling for tangible, practical systems or protocols to deal with crisis situations due to flooding or other disasters. The local authorities and the habitats and wildlife service should collaborate to make it easier to return agricultural lands and residences back to normality and that we end this current bureaucratic mess and tangle. These are the issues that I, as a public representative, am hearing on the ground. I know the Minister and his officials go to Brussels with the best of intentions but I think they need to have practical examples of how these European directives are impacting on Irish citizens. I ask the Minister to address these difficulties in the best interests of our citizens while also keeping in line with the directives we are meant to comply with, and raise them at EU level

Photo of Phil HoganPhil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I completely agree with Deputy Coffey's assertion of the significant contradictions in the policy positions of various groups. On the one hand they want particular objectives at national level and they regularly discuss with me the reasons I am not doing more in terms of addressing sectoral challenges in meeting targets for climate change, renewable energy or reducing our emissions generally and at the same time, they are the first to protest and object to progress we are trying to make. I agree totally that there is a need for all sides of the debate to reflect on how we will meet our objectives. We cannot have it every way.

The reason for the clean air package and my great interest in it, is the significant evidence of asthma as well as the experience of those of those in public health about the unintended consequences of normal living.

This is well documented. It is in fact documented to the extent that there is an unanswerable case to doing something about it. Why would a Government want to proceed with a policy that would contribute to more people dying? We want to do the reverse. We want to ensure that people have a good quality of life and to save people's lives and keep them out of institutional and expensive care. The target of 58,000 fewer premature deaths relates to all emissions, including from waste management, and how we can contribute to reducing them. Emissions are emissions regardless of from where they come. As such, waste management facilities are included.

On the Deputy's next question, the only thing I can do is cite what happens in Kilkenny. The Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland, SEAI, the local authority and the housing organisations working together and, in the case of the local authorities and housing organisations, using the funding provided by my Department under the retrofit and energy schemes, and in the case of the SEAI, using moneys provided to it by the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, have adopted a model through which all the stakeholders can achieve their objectives in respect of local authority housing or community facilities, including the provision of stoves in local authority houses. The 80% rule mentioned by the Deputy already exists but, unfortunately, only in a small number of areas in the country. There is a model of best practice that could be developed that would pay big dividends for householders and go a long way towards meeting our objectives in terms of energy efficiency. Perhaps, the SEAI, which is very involved in this, should be the co-ordinator. However, I believe that working together the local authorities, Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources and the housing unit of my Department would be the better co-ordinator and could achieve a more accelerated programme which people would buy into in terms of having more heat in their homes and greater efficiency in terms of the use of that energy.

I agree with the Deputy on the need for common sense in the implementation of our statutory responsibilities at a time of crisis. I have seen at first-hand the issues raised by the Deputy in relation to the River Suir. The system is overly bureaucratic and not fit for purpose in terms of it not being able to deal with crises, leaving people through no fault of their own but owing to unexpected and unintended consequences as a result of weather having to deal with this bureaucracy. This is contributing to a negative view of European directives and some of the organisations in this State dealing with these matters. The National Parks and Wildlife Service needs to review the type of measures it implements in a time of crisis. I recently accompanied Deputy Coffey on a visit to a house which had been flooded and saw first-hand the mayhem and uncertainty for people in terms of what they needed to do or from where they will find the means to provide a home and so on for the following few months. Some cases have taken six or 12 months to resolve. Protocols are required for crisis management. Common sense is a little suspect in regard to matters relative to a crisis, particularly in the context of storm damage and flooding. I will communicate with the Minister, Deputy Deenihan, on how we can get the National Parks and Wildlife Service, the local authorities, the OPW and other stakeholders around the table to work out the protocol for which the Deputy has called and which I fully support.

10:45 am

Photo of Paudie CoffeyPaudie Coffey (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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I understand that there is already in existence some crisis management protocol for State agencies. I am seeking an extension of that to citizens following flooding or extreme weather events. As I understand, the IFA is also working on this matter. Perhaps the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government and the Department of Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht could work with sectoral interests like the IFA and others on putting in place a protocol that works and will have the support of citizens. The business community has in place business continuity crisis management plans. The definition of crisis management is common sense applied in a structured manner. That is what we need in regard to the application of EU directives. When directives impact negatively on people's livelihoods, homes and families and thus the wider community it turns people against them. The message I would like the Minister to bring to Europe is that we need practical directives to allow us manage crises effectively. Otherwise, we will manage them in a manner which protects our ecosystems and biodiversity.

Photo of Phil HoganPhil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I support that. I will ask Mr. Sean Hogan, head of delivery of emergency responses, to take a look at this as part of the lessons of the storm of the winter of 2013-2014 to see what practical solutions can be put in place to assist citizens and householders at a time of crisis.

We recognise there is a need to get down to specifics. Deputy Coffey has given many examples today of where practical measures can be taken to meet our national sectoral objectives. When the Departments present their sectoral plans we will consider what practical programmes are proposed therein to meet our objectives. Hopefully, we will come up with proposals that are practical and implementable in terms of our meeting our European objectives and climate change targets and that people will feel good about rather than challenged by.

Photo of Kevin HumphreysKevin Humphreys (Dublin South East, Labour)
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I have a couple of questions for the Minister. There was huge concentration earlier this week on the EU review of our budget. I note media attention today is on possible fines for the agriculture sector. The EU review states that Ireland is not on course to meet its greenhouse gas emission targets and that although Ireland has adopted a number of specific action plans related to energy efficiency and climate action little progress has been made on specific actions that are needed to meet the climate and environmental targets under Europe 2020. Has the Minister had an opportunity to review the statements made earlier this week in Europe? As I said, earlier in the week there was huge concentration initially on the €2 billion correction in our budget. Today, the focus is on agriculture and possible fines in relation to the CAP scheme. However, there has been little or no discussion on the remarks made in relation to Ireland meetings its 2020 targets. I would welcome a response today from the Minister to the EU review published on Monday.

Photo of Phil HoganPhil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I have not yet had an opportunity to read the review published by the EU. We have been alerted to these matters by way of recent pronouncements from the EPA. We are subscribing to the view expressed by the Acting Chairman, namely, that there is a challenge in our meeting our 2020 targets. We are not only under pressure in respect of the agriculture and transport sectors but from the energy sector in terms of our renewable energy targets. Meeting our 2020 targets is an issue of concern to us. As members will be aware we are obliged under EU law to comply with these targets. Compliance is not an option: it is binding under EU law.

We have been trying to get it through to Departments that they have a problem. We need now to see their sectoral plans and the colour of their money in terms of their policy positions. We will get this in the autumn. We are concerned about the fact that the State may face the prospect of fines, particularly in the energy area where we are experiencing serious problems arising out of some remodelling done recently. We can achieve balance in the agriculture sector but the transport sector is a pressure point because of our inability to date in getting through our renewable targets in that sector. During the Cabinet meeting in April on national climate policy I conveyed to Government the consequences of our not meeting our energy reduction targets.

Photo of Kevin HumphreysKevin Humphreys (Dublin South East, Labour)
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Will the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government be issuing a response to the EU review?

Photo of Phil HoganPhil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Yes. We are currently in detailed discussions with the Commission on the climate and energy package.

Photo of Kevin HumphreysKevin Humphreys (Dublin South East, Labour)
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Will it be possible for this committee to have sight of the response to the review?

Photo of Phil HoganPhil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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We will have a look at that. As I said, I have not yet read the review to which the Acting Chairman refers.

10:55 am

Photo of Kevin HumphreysKevin Humphreys (Dublin South East, Labour)
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It is on page 32 of the working paper.

Photo of Phil HoganPhil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I will refer back to you on that.

Photo of Kevin HumphreysKevin Humphreys (Dublin South East, Labour)
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There appears to be an over-concentration on our economic situation and budgetary factors, which are obviously very important. When we get quite a negative review from the EU in this regard it should run up the red flag or warning signals.

Photo of Phil HoganPhil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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We are part of the progressive group of countries that work with the European Union and the Commission to advance the cause of being leaders in the world in respect of climate change. We must get the balance right between economic growth and environmental considerations. If we wish to get that balance right, we must be mindful of our competitiveness and working in step with our European colleagues rather than trying to be ahead of the posse.

Photo of Kevin HumphreysKevin Humphreys (Dublin South East, Labour)
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With regard to being in step and possibly ahead, in the EU 2030 package for the environmental Council will Ireland be seeking energy efficiency targets?

Photo of Phil HoganPhil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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We will be working with our European partners on how we will meet our 2020 and 2030 targets. Obviously, we will be guided by the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources in respect of how we are doing at present in terms of fitting in with the 2020 targets. We have a very big challenge there. Modelling is being done by UCC and the Economic and Social Research Institute, ESRI, that will help us on that in those negotiations. A great deal of intensive working-group work will be taking place in the next few weeks to help us meet those objectives. I would not like to offer a final outcome before we complete the negotiations on that.

Photo of Kevin HumphreysKevin Humphreys (Dublin South East, Labour)
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Is there a mechanism for this committee to play a role in that?

Photo of Phil HoganPhil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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There is a role to be played whereby we are not waiting around for these discussions to be completed at EU level. We are asking Departments with responsibility for energy, agriculture and transport, in particular, to come forward with their sectoral roadmaps. These are the proactive measures we are taking to force those Departments, in a sense, to devise the practical measures that will meet our objectives. It would be good if you invited representatives of the Departments to appear before the committee to tease out the issues that are of concern to the committee and also the issues of concern to the Department and see where we can arrive at a meeting of minds.

Photo of Kevin HumphreysKevin Humphreys (Dublin South East, Labour)
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The UN climate talks are taking place in Bonn this week. In Warsaw, there was a commitment that we would send a ministerial level representative for both energy and environment to those talks. At what level are we represented in the climate talks in Bonn?

Photo of Phil HoganPhil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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We are represented at assistant secretary level by Mr. David Walsh and his team.

Photo of Kevin HumphreysKevin Humphreys (Dublin South East, Labour)
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While we have a reporting structure for Council meetings, is there an opportunity to get a report on the talks and the positions we are taking in those climate change talks?

Photo of Phil HoganPhil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Yes, we can provide that.

Photo of Kevin HumphreysKevin Humphreys (Dublin South East, Labour)
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Could a note be forwarded to all members of the committee?

Photo of Phil HoganPhil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Yes, there is no problem with that.

Photo of Kevin HumphreysKevin Humphreys (Dublin South East, Labour)
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I will let you go after a point of clarification. I am aware that the climate action change legislation is very important to you. Do you intend to bring the legislation to Cabinet or to the Dáil prior to the summer recess?

Photo of Phil HoganPhil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I was hoping to bring it to Cabinet before the summer recess. If I can get it to Cabinet early and finalise the work that must take place with the Office of the Attorney General and Office of the Parliamentary Counsel, I would hope to bring it to the Houses before the summer. However, it is expected to go to the Cabinet before the summer anyway.

Photo of Kevin HumphreysKevin Humphreys (Dublin South East, Labour)
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Thank you. I thank the Minister, Mr. Ryan, Mr. McDonald, Ms Connolly, Mr. O'Brien, Mr. Hurley and Mr. Redmond for their assistance with our deliberations today.

The joint committee adjourned at 11.35 a.m. until 2.15 p.m. on Tuesday, 10 June 2014.