Michael McCarthy (Cork South West, Labour)
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Táimíd ar ais. We are here to discuss the topic of meeting the current housing demand with representatives from Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council, the Irish Council for Social Housing, Limerick City Council, the Peter McVerry Trust and Roscommon County Council.
I advise members that in order to complete the business in a timely and efficient manner questions should be brief. Blocks of ten minutes each have been allowed for questions and replies to those questions. Whoever is in possession in the tenth minute will asked to conclude. Any extra information may be forwarded in writing to the member. Those members not given ten minute slots will be allowed five minutes each.
I welcome Ms Kathleen Holohan, county manager and Mr. Tom McHugh, director of housing and community, Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council; Mr. Donal McManus, executive director and Ms Kathleen McKillion, head of development, Irish Council for Social Housing; Ms Kathleen Leddin, mayor of Limerick and Ms Caroline Curley, director of services, Mr. Brian Geaney, senior executive officer, home and social development, on behalf of Limerick City Council and Limerick County Council; Mr. Pat Doyle, chief executive officer, Mr. Francis Doherty, communications and advocacy manager, Mr. Brian Friel, head of services, the Peter McVerry Trust; Mr. Martin Connaughton, mayor of Roscommon County Council and Mr. Tommy Ryan, assistant county manager of Roscommon County Council. I also welcome Ms Christina Fannin and Ms Catherine Finlay on behalf of Roscommon County Council. I propose taking opening statements in the order I have called witnesses, which is in alphabetical order.
I advise the witnesses that, by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to this committee. If they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given. They are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person or persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Members are reminded of the long-standing ruling of the Chair to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or any official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.
The opening statements and any other documents submitted to the committee may be published on the committee's website at the conclusion of the meeting.
The issue of housing is of particular interest to the members of the committee. There have been fluctuations in the housing market for many years and the demand for housing seems to be growing again, in particular, in the Dublin region. We need to develop a housing policy which while meeting a demand in a sustainable manner also reflects the issues. We wish to avoid at all costs the creation of another property bubble.
This is the second of a number of meetings of the committee with various stakeholders on this important topic. We have invited various voluntary housing organisations and local authorities to engage with us on the topic. We intend to invite representatives from both the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government and officials from the Department of Social Protection to assist us with our deliberations.
We hope to explore the relevant issues in order to have a comprehensive exchange of views with all the stakeholders in order to compile and publish a report. This committee is an adjunct of the Oireachtas and is not an extension of the Government. It is a cross-party committee comprised of Members of the Dáil and Seanad. In line with previous reports we hope to achieve a fairly good, sound, solid report based on the exchanges with all the witnesses.
I will invite the delegation from Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council to make its opening statement.

Ms Kathleen Holohan:

I thank the committee for this opportunity to make a presentation. The council's submission has been forwarded to the committee. The main focus of this presentation will be on meeting the current housing demand but we can answer questions on the general scheme of the Housing (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill.

Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County is spatially by far the smallest county in the State with a population of almost 207,000, an increase of 7,000 in the 2011 census. The age profile in the county differs from the national average in that there are fewer people aged under 14 years and more people aged over 65 years.

In common with other counties, the rate of house completion in the county has reduced significantly, from 3,000 in 2007 to only 200 in 2012. The most recent population targets suggest a requirement of 2,500 residential units per annum. There are almost 640 ha. of zoned residential land in the county, of which almost half are currently unserviced.

With regard to social housing, the council manages a stock of more than 4,200 social housing units and 543 rental accommodation scheme, RAS, units, 396 of which are private rented tenancies and 147 are voluntary housing. We also have 156 dwellings leased under the various social leasing models and 76 properties have been made available on the rent-to-buy scheme.

We currently have 4,319 applicants on the council social housing support list. The housing needs assessment carried out in May 2013 showed the majority of those on the list - 83% - had a general housing need, with relatively small demand for disability, homeless, Traveller specific and age related categories of need. Most of those on the list - 55% - are currently living in private rented accommodation and a further 20% are living with parents.

The council uses all the various schemes available to meet demand for social housing in the county. For households not in priority position to receive an offer under the schemes, the alternative option has been to source private rented accommodation, with or without rent supplement. However, in recent years, with the recession and accompanying reduction in numbers of dwellings being completed, demand for private rented accommodation, particularly in Dún-Laoghaire-Rathdown has far exceeded supply and the rents demanded have escalated. This has had the knock-on effect of reducing the efficacy of rent supplement as a housing solution, as the rent supplement caps, which were revised in June 2013, are well below the average rent rates for family homes in the county.

The current housing demand has also been affected by an increasing number of households presenting as homeless. This has occurred for a number of reasons, including banks foreclosing and forcing sales, home owners finding themselves in unsustainable mortgage arrears, householders being unable to afford rents and rent increases and a general decrease in supply and affordability of private rented accommodation. The increase in current housing demand is caused largely by the lack of supply of dwellings. Low supply is particularly acute in Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown, as is the increase in rent rates. While the council is using all the social housing scheme options available to it, the problem will not be solved by the provision of an increase in social housing supply only. An increase in the supply of dwellings is required through restarting construction activity.

The submission circulated by the City and County Managers' Association outlines a number of options for consideration in the context of developing a more strategic and integrated approach to meet housing need, which would include all stakeholders, including financial institutions. Working in partnership with other public and private stakeholders, Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council will continue to play a key role in meeting housing needs at local level, whether through direct social housing provision or alternative social housing models.

The role local authorities play in providing a broad range of housing supports to marginal communities is often unrecognised as they are often responsible for providing housing solutions where other options may have failed. Therefore, in devising any new social housing policy, it is extremely important to ensure there is clarity on the future role of local authorities to achieve a positive policy outcome. It is also necessary for policy-makers to clarify systems of prioritisation in the provision of social housing supports, specifically in terms of disability and congregated settings, medical needs, Traveller accommodation, homelessness, including the provision of supports to homeless families, residential care and the release of sexual offenders.

While the new housing assistance payment arrangements may have resourcing implications for Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council, the council welcomes the provisions included in the general scheme of the Housing (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2014, particularly the sections dealing with procedures for termination of tenancies. We note, however, that the position regarding the protection of identities of persons giving information regarding anti-social behaviour will need detailed consideration and provisions.

Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council has a strong record of working in partnership with a variety of agencies and stakeholders to deliver social housing. It is through working together that we must address the issue of meeting current housing need.

Mr. Donal McManus:

I thank the Chairman and members for extending an invitation to the Irish Council for Social Housing, ICSH, to address the joint committee. Rather than reading through the submission we circulated, I propose to focus on three key issues, namely, the role the non-profit sector can play in addressing housing needs, the way in which the sector has responded to the financial environment since 2008 and proposals that would assist in enabling the sector to do more to meet current housing demand.
The Irish Council for Social Housing was established in 1982 and now counts more than 270 member housing associations. The not-for-profit sector manages 27,000 homes occupied by families, people with disabilities, older people and former homeless households. Approximately half the housing managed by the sector is occupied by families, with the remainder focused on groups with special needs.
Housing associations are based throughout the country and the sector includes large, small and medium sized associations. The profile of the sector is shown in Appendix 1. Since the 1980s, the number of homes managed by the sector has increased from approximately 2,000 to approximately 27,000. This expansion occurred as a result of increased State investment, better co-ordination of policies and the use of the sector's own resources, including financial resources, land and property and a significant voluntary input. Housing associations have been involved in promoting good housing management for 30 years. We have a programme in place to promote outcomes in the areas of rent collection, repairs and maintenance, voids and landlord-tenant relations. We hope this will form part of the new regulatory framework.
In terms of the response of the voluntary housing sector since 2008, the collective output of not-for-profit housing associations reached a peak in 2009 when 2,000 new homes were completed. This included a number of mixed tenure schemes where housing associations were involved in the management of the social housing element of mixed Part V agreements with local authorities and developers. Since then the annual output of new social housing units by housing associations has declined to under 500. Part of the shortfall has been filled by leasing initiatives and associated activities.
Since the downturn, capital expenditure for the sector has reduced from more than €400 million in 2008 to approximately €40 million in 2014. This reduction has resulted in a shift from bricks and mortar to revenue based schemes. In that context, the new mixed funding environment allows interested housing associations to raise loan finance from the Housing Finance Agency or private institutions. While the financing arrangements provided finance for acquisitions, it has become patently obvious that the number of properties which are fit for purpose for social housing and available on the private market is negligible. This option is no longer available.
The range of schemes in which housing associations are involved and have been actively pursuing in recent years is illustrated in appendix 2. It includes mortgage-to-rent schemes, regeneration, refurbishment and a limited number of stock transfers. Most of these initiatives have relied on co-operation with third parties such as property developers. Reliance on third parties makes predicting the supply of social housing extremely difficult.
In some schemes, it has taken up to 40 weeks to secure approval for funding. These delays in drawing down funding for schemes need to be addressed because, having invested considerable effort in the various schemes, housing associations find that the process of securing sanction takes too long in some cases.
The new regulatory framework will provide reassurance to financial institutions entering the housing sector. A development capacity survey carried out by the ICSH in November 2013 found that members believed they had the capacity to develop more than 4,860 new homes in the next three years provided three conditions are met. These are the introduction of a development programme with targets, a clear funding scheme with conditions and loan finance with reasonable terms.
Proposals have been made for the not-for-profit sector to take an enhanced role by working with local authorities to meet housing need. One of the current structural deficits is the absence in the Department of a dedicated delivery unit. Such a unit was in place until 2009 and should be reinstated to allow for better co-ordination of funding and policy arrangements to increase supply. A development programme for the not-for-profit housing sector linked to the capital advance leasing facility, CALF, would be a more proactive mechanism to ensure supply and incentivise associations that are seeking to develop new housing projects.
Other measures that would assist in meeting housing demand include ensuring nominations for social housing vacancies are turned around quicker. The nominations protocol for Dublin households should also be fully implemented. These are two short-term measures that could be activated quickly.

The ICSH recognises the benefits in principle of HAP. We have previous experience of transferring 5,000 households from rent allowance to RAS, but there was no meaningful engagement with the sector. Direct deduction at source would be useful for the housing association sector.

The ICSH believes the not-for-profit sector can play an increasing role in meeting housing need, notwithstanding those issues identified previously. It is essential to have a continual supply of social housing with affordable rents, as dependence on the private sector will not suffice in future. We see the increasing demand in the rental sector from other categories. I thank members for their attention and we look forward to their comments and observations.

Ms Caroline Curley:

I thank the Chairman and members for the invitation to attend today. As they already have my written submission, I will keep my remarks brief.

There is adequate land zoned to meet the housing requirements as set out in our core strategy in the county and city development plans. It will also meet the requirements indicated in the Housing Agency's recently published document, Housing Supply Requirements in Ireland's Urban Settlements 2014-2018. However, there is still a need for measures to encourage financial institutions to lend money to ensure more proactive private sector housing output. Expansion of the "living in the city" tax scheme should also be considered to bring additional life to the city centre by bringing back into full use living space in our Georgian quarter. It is also important that investment continues on public realm works to ensure an attractive city centre.

Investment in flood defences is required in a number of areas within the city to ensure that existing built land is not flooded and also to ensure that land that can be used for future housing development is protected. The current housing waiting list for Limerick city and county has 3,843 approved applicants. Difficulties arise in sourcing RAS properties as landlords are withdrawing from the scheme. The void elimination programme is assisting greatly in returning vacant social properties to productive use. Limerick City and County Councils have received approval for refurbishments of 31 units in 2014.

As of 31 January we have agreed 359 new build units with the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government. It is anticipated that work will commence on these projects over the next two years with all to be completed by 2017. The council has also completed a thermal upgrade project to a selection of homes in all of the regeneration areas in 2013 and this project is being extended to include 300 homes in the current year.

The council is working in collaboration with the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government and the Irish Council of Social Housing with a view to the approved housing bodies playing an enhanced role in the proposed delivery of housing projects outlined in the Limerick regeneration framework implementation plan. It is important that a workable financial model comes out of this process in order that AHBs can deliver certain aspects of the regeneration implementation plan.

Mr. Pat Doyle:

I thank the members of the committee for inviting us here today. They have our submission. I wish to focus on four areas. Throughout the last boom, record numbers of people presented as homeless. So even in the boom we had people homeless at a time when we were building the greatest number of housing units we ever built. We want to see more builds, but we want to include the most vulnerable and the most excluded.

The Minister of State recently announced a strategy to end long-term homelessness by 2016, which we welcome. We believe it is achievable if the right measures are put in place. That would ensure that the most vulnerable long-term homeless people get off the streets. We also need a housing strategy involving new builds. Numerous actions to create more social housing must include housing for the most vulnerable. So it needs to be different. Some 80% of homeless people are single individuals. Young single males represent the highest percentage of homeless people in the country. European evidence has shown that providing housing first addresses complex needs. So we need a different type of housing build; we need single-person units to be in the mix also.

A shocking number of families have become homeless lately. As everybody is aware, the numbers have gone from 16 families in January 2013 to 48 families in January 2014. Although we need units built for them, we do not need all the builds to be three-bedroom houses. We need single-person units for single homeless people.

The housing strategy needs to involve the social partners, the Irish Council for Social Housing and all the approved bodies. I note that the Minister of State's high-level working group does not contain a representative from a voluntary housing association. It is made up of representatives of statutory bodies only. We believe that is a bit of a loss. Most local authority directors of housing will say that they work in partnership with voluntary housing associations and yet the high-level working group for homelessness the Minister of State has appointed does not contain a representative from a voluntary housing association. We need a new housing strategy and that needs to involve having all the players at the table.

We welcome the Minister of State' recent announcement of capital funding for the CA scheme, which is targeted towards new builds. The Peter McVerry Trust has some applications in on that. We know it is oversubscribed, but acquisitions also need to form part of the equation. New builds will take 18 months to two years to reach completion. At the last count in November, there were 139 homeless people on the streets in Dublin. The figures for the new homeless count are not yet published. We expect it will have dropped slightly but expect it to still be higher than it was in spring 2013. So we also need capital acquisitions.

The last time there was a call for the CA scheme, it was oversubscribed. If we get capital acquisitions, the trust along with other voluntary housing associations can turn those properties around in three to four months. So that shows the difference between acquisitions at three to four months and two years for a new build. It is also the only time to do it as the property prices are on the rise again. Now would be an ideal time to bring in acquisitions. If we wait any longer we will be paying more money for them.

We need regulation of the housing market and particularly of the rental market. In recent years as the boom was ending, the rental market was held out as a solution to end homelessness. The rental market is swamped now, rents are rising rapidly and there is no regulation of the rental market. The two lowest socioeconomic groupings make up the majority of homeless people. They qualify for rent supplement, which was meant to be a temporary measure.

Most landlords will now say that they will not accept social welfare rents. We need regulation and that needs to be linked with the Equality Authority. People are not allowed to discriminate against somebody on the basis of religion but it is possible to discriminate against somebody for being in one of the two lowest socioeconomic groupings in the country. We need something in the rental market to stop this discrimination against the poorest people in the country.

We need to do more to inform people of their rights and entitlements. The Peter McVerry Trust works very closely with the Dublin Region Homeless Executive. Working together in partnership, all the providers and the local authorities in Dublin are doing a huge amount to prevent people from losing their housing. Landlords are informing tenants they are increasing rents by €200 with only one month's notice, knowing that if the tenants - young person, couple or family - leave that home there will be a queue of other people to fill it. We need more prevention.

The DRHE, Threshold and Focus Ireland are developing an app and some information campaigns, informing people who feel they will not be able to come up with the rents ofwhat they can do. They can apply and we can advocate for them to stay and argue with the landlord. Landlords cannot simply increase rents by 25% overnight. Evidence on the ground has shown that because people are coming from the two lowest socioeconomic groupings, they are not aware of their rights. They may not be as educated as the landlord. They are walking out and leaving the facility just before the next rent payment is due. We feel we could keep them in the facility if they engage with us.

We need to cut out all evictions. We cannot be evicting the poorest of people into homelessness. The local authorities have recently done considerable work with partners to reduce that. Voluntary housing agencies, such as the Peter McVerry Trust, Focus Ireland and others can do a considerable amount to work with those families with such challenges to ensure they stay in their homes.

Nobody wants anti-social behaviour next door to us, but it can be managed. The Peter McVerry Trust has run a specialist programme for sex offenders for the past ten years.

Nobody wants to live next door to a sex offender but we have managed to house sex offenders directly in the community over the past ten years. That is one of the most problematic groups. We have done that because they cannot go into emergency shelters or they would be targeted and picked on. We have managed to work with communities to do that without any major difficulties. If we can do it with such a difficult group, we can do it with anybody else.

My main recommendations are prevention, an increase in the capital assistance scheme, regulation of the rental market and a housing strategy.

Mr. Tommy Ryan:

On behalf of Roscommon County Council I thank the joint committee for the opportunity to present the position of a rural local authority on the forthcoming housing Bill and the more general topic of meeting the current housing demand. In our submission we examined the general scheme of the Bill and compared and contrasted the proposals therein with the current legislation and practice. Particular attention was paid to the matters of termination of tenancy, tenant purchase and the proposed housing assistance payment. We have also summarised the estimated demand for, and supply of, housing in County Roscommon with particular reference to the demand for social housing.

Roscommon has a population of 64,000 and is the eleventh largest of the 32 counties of Ireland by area and the fifth least populous county. It has the second lowest population density after Leitrim. It is projected that the population of the county by 2020 will be 71,166, an increase of 6,202 persons. The regional planning guidelines state that there are on average 2.5 people in each house and therefore 2,480 houses will be needed between now and 2020. The housing strategy estimates that 6% of land zoned for residential use needs to be used for social housing, with 370 social houses up to 2020.

We have considered three significant operational changes in the Bill. In respect of termination of tenancy, the council believes that engagement with the tenant at an early stage of rent arrears is critical and is the practice in Roscommon, which in most cases leads to good outcomes. The county council welcomes the process of a tenancy warning with regard to non-payment of rent. This legislation will provide the necessary support for this practice.

Section 62 has never been used in Roscommon with regard to anti-social behaviour because the council implements the policies and procedures as set down in its anti-social behaviour strategy which provides for the resolution of problems, mediation, multi-agency co-operation and behavioural issues with minors.

The council has carried out a detailed comparison of the proposal for incremental purchase with the previous tenant purchase schemes which is appended to our opening statement submission. Tenant purchase has often had the effect of providing stability within a local authority estate by contributing to the mixed tenure nature of the development. Disposal of local authority housing assets during a period of almost zero construction, however, will reduce the availability of the number of social housing units.

The introduction of the housing assistance payment, HAP, as a social housing support to assist rent supplement recipients who have a long-term housing need is welcome. Its introduction will consolidate all forms of social housing supports within the remit of local authorities. It is a new departure for local authorities and will take some time to implement. The transfer of the long-term rent supplement recipients into HAP will challenge human and financial resources available to local authorities. In Roscommon there are approximately 800 persons receiving rent supplement, approximately 513 of whom are in receipt of long-term support. This will significantly increase the council’s responsibility from its existing 1,200 tenants and 420 rental accommodation scheme tenants. The council has set out in its submission some observations to be considered for the implementation of the scheme.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Independent)
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Housing waiting lists vary around the country. The last time I saw the figures, approximately 50% of the waiting list was concentrated in three counties: Dublin, Cork and Kildare. They are at the apex of the crisis of homelessness for families.

The experience in Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown closely matches that in my area. Some local authorities are almost becoming homelessness agencies. How does the council deal with families and what kind of resources does it dedicate to this? Does it deal differently with families? For example, are child welfare issues considered where children are involved? There seem to be two major faults in the HAP scheme, one of which is a major resourcing issue at a time when there is an embargo. What engagement has there been between the Department and the local authorities on that embargo in respect of workforce planning for HAP? The Minister for Social Protection has told me that no one will be transferred from the rents unit in her Department. One cannot magic up solutions when the ratio of staff to population differs so much throughout the country.

In theory, HAP is a good idea and would address some of the poverty traps in the rent supplement scheme that arise if people take up work, which is possibly a disincentive. The second fault line, however, is how local authorities, particularly Limerick, which is the lead authority in this area, deal with tenants who pay under the table. We are all aware of these tenants. I do not know anyone in my area who is not topping up. Is it acknowledged? When Focus Ireland came before the committee a couple of weeks ago it said it had offered to give the names of people to show this was happening but the Department said it would withdraw rent supplement from those people, effectively making them homeless. Focus Ireland would not do that to its own clients. How do local authorities acknowledge something that is not acknowledged and deal with it in respect of HAP? We need to write a report on this issue.

I am surprised that the mix of private, direct local authority provision of social housing and the not-for-profit sector is not included in the high level committee. It will be necessary because that is one of the areas from which funding can be drawn down. We should include that in our report. Dr. Michelle Norris told us there was an impediment to drawing down funding. What is that impediment? If 4,800 houses could be built in that sector over the next three years that would be a valuable contribution and it would be useful to us to know about the impediments.

My questions are directed at the Irish Council for Social Housing, Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council, Limerick County Council and the Peter McVerry Trust in respect of the increasing number of families presenting as homeless.

Ms Kathleen McKillion:

The non-profit sector has not been included in the steering group to develop proposals on HAP. We feel that as a key player in the sector, in partnership with local authorities, that needs to be addressed. We would like to be at the heart of that. We met separately with representatives of the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government and just a week or so ago we met the four Dublin directors of housing on how to address the current homeless problem and the high media profile issue concerning families. We need to be part of the formal structures.

Mr. McManus in his introduction mentioned how there should be more effective use of the stock we have currently, and we are well aware of void properties in local authority stock and concerns about access to funding and resources to carry out remedial works to bring them back to use. It is a significant issue. The Irish Council for Social Housing, ICSH, through housing association performance management, collects data on how long it takes to let a property from when one tenant leaves to when another moves in. We rely on the local authorities, which are the gatekeeper of all housing options, and the number one reason our member housing associations throughout the country tell us for the delay in properties being used, the number of which is rising yearly, is a delay in local authority nominations. We need to improve the efficiency of the process on the ground to see immediate outcomes.

There is an implementation plan from the housing oversight group relating to homelessness, which will be discussed this afternoon, and there are many recommendations and proposals in there. Part of the process must consider housing associations working in partnership with the local authority to bring stock back into use. The funding of all these strategies must be examined, as there is much conflicting need. The growing waiting list is evidenced by all, but some people are only there to access rent supplement, which is a major issue in itself. There is also the national disability strategy to consider, and everybody is trying to pull from the same limited housing supply. We have exhausted reliance on the private sector and we must get back to building. There must be a scheme to house special needs individuals and particularly the most vulnerable homeless people, including those with a disability and elderly people, but the budget for it has been slashed by over 60% in recent years. The capital loan and subsidy scheme, which housed families, no longer exists.

We have a big part to play and we are accessing private finance. Members inquired about impediments. The Housing Finance Agency has been lending to local authorities for a number of years and the ICSH has called for direct lending to housing associations. The doors opened on that a few years ago, although it is a slow two-stage process. Housing associations must be approved for certified borrowing status, and to date seven of the larger general needs housing associations have been granted such status. The feedback we get from members who have applied and have not been successful - there are many, including some homeless organisations and other special needs providers - is that the approval for this status has not been granted. We have spoken to representatives of the Housing Finance Agency with a view to almost having another tier of associations coming in with, for example, a lesser lending rate, because we need to get more associations involved. We have heard that money is available, and initially it was only available for acquisitions but it is now available for new builds. We welcome such movement but there is still a risk to the charitable non-profit housing associations in the initial construction phase. It is an iterative process which takes time, although we welcome further engagement on that.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Independent)
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What about the Dún Laoghaire experience and the two fault lines?

Mr. Tom McHugh:

I can discuss how we deal with family welfare in the Dún Laoghaire context. We do not simply put people on a list, and part of our function is to provide assistance and advice. We do this in partnership with a number of agencies, especially Focus Ireland and Threshold. One of our most important functions is trying to advise people about their housing position. There is a robust and detailed assessment and placement service for families facing homelessness, and we also have a dedicated and specialised welfare section, which would have the welfare of applicants and their families to the fore. It is very difficult for both staff and families but we try to do our best in offering advice and looking to place people in the best accommodation available.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Independent)
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What about the rent cap fault lines? How does Mr. McHugh deal with the issue of people paying for accommodation under the table when we are seeking to implement the housing assistance payment, HAP, scheme? There is also the question of staffing and resourcing. Is this possible without additional resourcing?

Mr. Tom McHugh:

My understanding is that a HAP pilot is operating in Limerick, so resource implications will depend on the outcome of the pilot's business case. With regard to rent caps, as we indicated in the submission, the basic problem now is that demand far outstrips supply. Until there is an increase in supply, I am not sure what other solutions there will be.

Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
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I will have to leave at 1 p.m. but we have had a very important discussion about housing in general. A house is a person's castle but if one does not have a house, one has nothing. The Government has recognised that and by inviting the groups' submissions today, the committee has done the same. We must digest them further. Housing is the most important item on the agenda, although jobs are also important. If children are not in a house and they do not have a good start in life in a home, they are on a slippery slope to nowhere. We must recognise that.

A €68 million fund was announced last month, but has that helped in any way? Should it be utilised differently? Everybody must prioritise in our current position. Deputy Catherine Murphy asked about HAP. I was a member of South Dublin County Council for 20 years so has HAP improved the process? What other improvements could be brought about? Mr. McManus mentioned the shift from bricks and mortar to revenue-based schemes, so can he elaborate on this to see how feasible it would be? Landlords withdrawing from schemes is a major problem and rent rates are increasing. The Minister of State, Deputy Jan O'Sullivan, has spoken of how rent is linked to GDP in other countries, so the matter is being considered, although I do not know what will come from it. It is an important concept. If a scheme is capped, there may be an exodus and developers may decide not to build any more houses if there is no incentive or it cannot be rented at market value. How could we balance the scales in favour of people who need a home? The process has been linked to GDP in other countries but how can that be balanced from a bottom-up approach? The witnesses have experience and could give this advice.

Capital acquisition means turnaround of houses can occur in three to four months, which compares favourably with the building method. People in one bedroom apartments which are not suitable want to move up the ladder. This applies particularly to local authorities and shared ownership schemes, and for example, people may have bought a one bedroom apartment but they could have two children. How could they be moved to a two bedroom property? Could there be a negotiation or strategy involving local authorities and the parties involved?

The person who has taken the loan with the authority is bearing the brunt. Naturally, one cannot bankrupt a local authority by making it take some of the pain as well. That is a question that is on my mind because everyone is taking some of the pain but I accept it might not be feasible.

The lack of involvement of members of non-governmental organisations dealing with the homeless community is one of the issues we will raise with the Minister. I am sure it is not written in stone that there could not be one other member. Perhaps there are reasons for that. Such an input to the high level group would be important.

Early intervention is the best way. I attended a presentation on early intervention in child care this morning. Such intervention is important to prevent anti-social behaviour and to ensure a person does not become homeless. Pat Doyle spoke about the issue. Could the witnesses specify one thing that local authorities could do to facilitate early intervention and so stop the rot before it happens in terms of homelessness? I refer to financial and social reasons.

Michael McCarthy (Cork South West, Labour)
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I suggest the Senator would direct those questions to other organisations that have not spoken yet, for example, the Peter McVerry Trust or Roscommon or Limerick local authorities.

Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
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I am happy that whoever can respond would do so. I am sure the witnesses are all very capable and able.

Michael McCarthy (Cork South West, Labour)
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I will ask the witnesses from the Peter McVerry Trust and perhaps Roscommon County Council to respond to Senator Keane.

Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
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I am happy as long as the questions are answered from the perspective of the local authority position on homelessness.

Mr. Pat Doyle:

In regard to the high level working group on homelessness, we have been calling for the Irish Council for Social Housing to be the fourth pillar. It represents most of the voluntary housing associations and is very much linked with the homeless associations as well. If the issue could be brought to the attention of the Minister of State, Deputy Jan O’Sullivan, we would be very happy for the council to take up the seat representing the voluntary sector.

The question of the one intervention we could take to prevent children becoming homeless is a complex one. Every time a decision is made in the Department of Education and Skills, it affects homelessness. We always try to ram the point home. Although it might not happen in the lifetime of the Government, if the Minister for Education and Skills were to increase class sizes or take other measure that would impact on the poorest children, it would affect homelessness. What is synonymous with young people becoming homeless is that they are all early school leavers. The first major departmental group with which they engage is the Department of Education and Skills.

In the long term, we need to do more to prevent children from leaving school. We have done a lot to improve literacy skills in recent years. Previous Governments removed book grants and one does not see the impact of such measures until years later. Education is a key area.

Family support agencies in the health area are also important. If we take €50 million out of the mental health budget, that will affect homelessness in the future. We always say that the housing and homeless strategy needs to be a Government strategy as well as a strategy of the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government. In the same way as legislation is gender-proofed, we almost need to homeless-proof, as it were, budgets.

I stated earlier that the number of families becoming homeless is increasing. Since January 2013 there have been 16 new presentations of families a month. The number jumped to 48 this month. Repossessions of buy-to-lease properties are beginning to happen. The banks are going after them. When the banks take them back, they want vacant possession, which will bring families into what is currently a very overcrowded service. I am in favour of resourcing families when they need to be housed but when they present in greater numbers, more single people who cannot get access to housing will end up on the street. I have tried to answer the questions.

Mr. Tommy Ryan:

In regard to the cap on the rent supplement, the effect it has depends on supply and demand. For parts of County Roscommon – the smaller rural villages - the cap is not a problem but in the areas located nearer to urban centres such as Roscommon town and Monksland, which is on the outskirts of Athlone, it is impossible to get accommodation for the level of rent provided for in the rent supplement.

For example, we have to rent houses from the private sector under the rental accommodation scheme. We cannot obtain houses for less than the cap set out in the rent supplement and we have to pay in excess of it when we go to the market or we will not get houses for our tenants. There must be a revision of the cap on rent supplement under the housing assistance payment, HAP.

In terms of acquisition versus new build, that depends again on where the houses are located and if they are in a suitable location. In a county like Roscommon that has a large geographic spread – it is approximately 60 miles from north to south and 40 miles from east to west – sometimes where the houses are available for sale does not correspond to the location of our housing applicants. Acquisition rather than new build might not solve the problem. One needs both approaches. If one is to have a capital programme for the provision of housing, one needs to develop a construction programme as well as an acquisition programme. I accept it will take longer to get the construction programme up and running but if one plans it in time, it will be successful.

Homelessness is not a major issue in Roscommon but we work very closely with the other agencies, in particular with community welfare officers. We can sort matters out fairly quickly for anyone presenting as homeless in Roscommon in terms of providing private rented accommodation. The main issue that arises is emergency accommodation for a few nights. I do not know if that covers everything that was asked.

Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
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Perhaps Mr. McManus would comment?

Mr. Donal McManus:

In terms of the issue Senator Keane raised about bricks and mortar, there has been a shift from 100% funding for bricks and mortar to some State money and some private money. There will be bricks and mortar but it will be spread between some limited State money and some private finance. With the new mixed funding arrangement, one could build three new houses compared with one house in the past for 100% finance. That is the shift. There is nothing inherently wrong with moving from 100% capital to revenue as long as it is balanced. That goes back to what Deputy Murphy mentioned about drawing down the money. The drawdown process is more complicated and the hurdles need to be overcome in that respect, but the shift from 100% funding to 60% or 70% is doable. It has happened throughout the world and does mean one is providing three social houses with bricks and mortar for one through 100% funding.

Dessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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I have other meetings to attend. We know there is a massive housing crisis, and a homelessness crisis in particular. Since 2008 we have had cuts of €1 billion in the housing budget. We should not mask the figures. Even last year €60 million was cut from the housing budget. We keep hearing that more funding is being added but that is not the case. We should put that in the context of the previous cuts.

Reference was made to Part V of the Planning and Development Act 2000 and what we got in housing in terms of the 20% when schemes were built. I would like to hear the opinion of witnesses in that regard. The voids have built up as a result of the natural turnover in most local authorities. One moved and one dealt with the voids, but because of the lack of funding, a huge build-up developed – more than 1,800 across the country - and we are now getting funding for 900. We are only catching up on what should have been a natural progression. That is why the lists have been getting bigger.

Comments were made about the cap on rent supplement. Unless we put rent control in place we will ask for more trouble because all we will see is an increase in rent. We need a system of rent control whether it is tied to inflation or the cost of living. There is no way around that.

I know that many voluntary housing groups are represented here. In the past, the local authorities were the main providers of housing. I wonder what would happen if the local authorities were set up in the same way as the voluntary housing groups in terms of accessing funding. Does anyone have an opinion on whether that could work? The Minister has indicated that it could work. When I spoke to officials in Dublin City Council, they said it could not work. I would like to hear why it could not work. Why should the local authorities not be able to access the open market to add to their housing stock? Why should they not be able to borrow on that basis, through the Housing Finance Agency or otherwise? I would like to know whether people think that can be done.

I agree with everyone that evictions should stop. I believe we need to find a solution to this problem. We are going to have more and more mortgages getting into deep trouble. We are heading into a further crisis. Approximately 180 people are being housed in hotels every day at a cost of much more than €14,000 a day. That money is being thrown away. We are fighting every day to chase places in hotels. If one or two families are put out, the local authorities cannot even house them. It is an absolutely crazy situation.

A new tenant purchase scheme is about to start. I believe the moneys in question should be ring-fenced for housing and not put to any other use. I would like to hear people's opinions on that. In the past, these moneys have been used for various things. That is a scandal. It should be ring-fenced.

I would like to speak about the issue of financial contributions. In my own area of Finglas, more than 100 people who are on a list to go to senior citizens accommodation or otherwise are waiting for financial contributions. There is a source of revenue that can be utilised if it can be brought on stream again. There is a danger in this regard, however. We have to make sure this does not add to the property bubble and cause prices to be put up. That is why rent controls are so important. We must put them in place in order that increases do not happen.

I want to ask about what happens to couples who own properties when they separate. A different rule seems to apply in rural Ireland compared with Dublin City Council and the main local authorities. Dublin City Council will accept that someone has a housing need if he or she can prove that he or she is separated and cannot afford a property. If such a person moves back to Dublin from another area, he or she can get a letter stating that he or she has a housing need. If the property is sold, the funds accruing from that will go towards the local authority, if necessary. Some local authorities do not seem to act in this manner. I have received mixed reports from Cork and places like that. I would like to hear about the experience in the local authorities that are represented at this meeting. Is there a block of people who end up in these situations?

I have told the Minister that solutions are needed. We have identified through parliamentary questions that €1 billion is available to be used under the strategic investment fund, or the old pension fund. We need to start building more social housing. I know people have said it is not the be-all and end-all, but it sets the parameters for the control of housing. There are many positives associated with the construction of social housing. It can be used to take people off the rent supplement or rental accommodation schemes. The savings that accrue from building social housing and putting people into it are important, as are the moneys gathered by the local authorities as a result. There are many pluses in this regard.

I would like to say a few words about the issue of homelessness. More than 5,000 people are on the homeless waiting list. Many people are presenting as homeless. It has been mentioned that 46 families presented themselves in a single month. That is mad. There is no way we will end the homeless strategy in such circumstances. I would like to hear people explain how the present policies will solve the homeless situation. I cannot see it. When I spoke to a manager in Dublin City Council the other day, he told me that the council is being told to direct homeless cases as priorities. It is all very well and good to direct most of the housing that is coming on stream to this sector, and I agree with such an approach, but we have to watch what we do thereafter. People on the housing list or on rent supplement can have a housing need that is every bit as bad. They could eventually end up on the homeless list. It is going to be a vicious circle. I think we need to be careful about how we do things.

Michael McCarthy (Cork South West, Labour)
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The Deputy might ask two specific groups to respond to his points.

Dessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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I addressed a couple of questions to the local authorities.

Michael McCarthy (Cork South West, Labour)
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Will I start with the officials from Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council? Maybe the officials from Limerick or Roscommon might join in.

Ms Kathleen Holohan:

We will try to answer the questions between us. The Deputy spoke about the Part V system. I can only speak about the experience of Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council. There were difficulties associated with it in our county at the height of the boom when developers wanted to give us money and did not want to give us units. By the time the collapse had come, they wanted to give us units but they did not want to give us money. It had turned around. We achieved nearly 600 units between social and affordable housing in that period. It took an awful lot of complex work. By the time the developer applied for planning permission, he might have been quite a long way down the road in terms of design, etc. This meant we did not have as much control over the design of the units as we might have liked, or would have had we been building the units ourselves. We got a developer to build a halting site for us. Various things like that were useful. The Part V system certainly had its place and had a role to play. I would not like to see it disappear completely.

Dessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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The issue here is that it is being watered down.

Ms Kathleen Holohan:

Yes.

Mr. Tom McHugh:

It has been mentioned that the Irish Council for Social Housing, the four Dublin local authorities and the voluntary housing bodies are trying to work together to alleviate the current severe homelessness situation. It is not acceptable for anybody - the housing applicants or the housing authorities - that a number of people are living in hotel accommodation. We are working closely with the Dublin Region Homeless Executive to try to alleviate that situation. The Deputy mentioned the prioritisation of homeless cases by local authorities. This is one way of alleviating the problem. If we can try to get some more units made available to us through the voluntary housing bodies, that might get us over the current situation with regard to those in hotels.

As we said in our submission, the basic problem at the moment is housing supply. It has been made much worse by the current situation - the increased number of people on the waiting list and the increased number of people presenting themselves as homeless. The prioritisation of homeless cases by the local authorities, together with the provision of additional units from voluntary housing bodies that we are hoping for, will at least get those families out of hotels and into more suitable accommodation.

Michael McCarthy (Cork South West, Labour)
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Does Mr. Ryan wish to speak on behalf of Roscommon County Council?

Mr. Tommy Ryan:

Deputy Ellis referred to the sending of letters to partners who are in the process of separating. Roscommon County Council does not issue letters saying that such people qualify for social housing. However, we have an arrangement with the Department of Social Protection and the community welfare officers whereby they look favourably on any applications for rent supplement made by such people. While we do not formally issue letters to such people telling them they qualify for social housing until the issue of the ownership of the family home has been resolved, there is still an arrangement in place with the community welfare officers to ensure they are not left in a position in which they are unable to provide accommodation for themselves.

Dessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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The problem we have with this issue is that the rules seem to differ across the various local authorities. Some local authorities are adopting a hardline attitude to the owners of properties and will not move until the issue of ownership is resolved. Dublin City Council has been much more flexible in the sense that it accepts there is a housing need. It will allow a person to access rent supplement without putting him or her on the housing list. This does not seem to be working elsewhere. It is a serious problem. People cannot stay in their homes. It depends on which county one is in. One is better off in one county than in another. That is the point I am making.

Mr. Tommy Ryan:

They can access rent supplement in Roscommon. They do not get a letter putting them on the social housing list but they can certainly access rent supplement. There is no issue with people not being able to get accommodation for themselves in the case of a family separation and the ownership of the family home being sorted.

Dessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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My point is that some local authorities are not even doing that.

Marcella Corcoran Kennedy (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I thank the delegations for attending the committee to help us in our consideration of this matter.

Do the local authorities see a value in the re-introduction of the shared ownership scheme which assisted people in the past in acquiring their own homes? The Fr. Peter McVerry Trust stated that homelessness doubled in the boom time when there was much building. Has it any means of accounting for how and why that happened? The Irish Council for Social Housing stated the nominations protocol which was agreed between the four Dublin local authorities is not fully implemented. Why is this the case and how can it be improved? Could the council also give us more detail about the use of the leasing model for small housing associations? What are the views of the delegations on rent controls?

Mr. Donal McManus:

There have been difficulties with leasing for small housing associations, especially bodies which have to raise finance. There has been some uptake of social leasing by small associations but it has been difficult for them to raise finance. We recommend they use social finance companies. Leasing tends to be used by the more active associations.

Ms Kathleen McKillion:

The nominations process was developed several years ago with the four Dublin local authorities to prioritise homeless nominations for casual vacancies that occur within housing association stock. It, however, does not seem to be implemented on the ground. We ask our members about nominations they receive but they are unable to identify them or it has not been clear they have been prioritised. There seems to have been some recent improvement in that. We do need to address this current situation in homelessness but it needs to be balanced by ensuring mixed and sustainable communities.

There has been some talk about rent controls. There is an issue of rising rents, particularly in Dublin. I have evidence of it personally with getting 28 days’ notice of a significant rent increase. There is very little one can do about that when the market is moving that way. It certainly causes serious issues for those on rent supplement. We all see the advertisements for letting which state applicants on rent supplement are not welcome. There needs to be a review of the caps.

The whole move to HAP, housing assistance payment, appears to be workable. It makes sense to have a long-term housing support in the place of the local authority. We have not, however, been included in the proposed direct deduction of source from welfare as the local authorities have. We do need to have a role and know what impact it might have. It appears to suggest it will increase housing provision and that there is money available. We need to know about that. We certainly feel the housing list may reduce if people accommodated through HAP are deemed to be adequately housed.

Mr. Tom McHugh:

Our experience to date of shared ownership schemes has been that the majority of our loan arrears are caused by those with shared ownership loans. I would urge caution in further rolling that out.

Mr. Pat Doyle:

We raised the increase of homelessness in Dublin during the boom to remind members that a new housing build in itself will not reduce homelessness. That is why we are calling for a national housing strategy. During the boom, thousands bought a second home for buy-to-let. We had shared ownership for certain groups but many homeless people did not have access to them because they did not have employment. That was at time when we were talking about full employment. Most homeless people, particularly young single males who left school at 14 and were in and out of the prison system, were not getting these jobs during the boom. We had a housing boom with full employment and yet there were people from the low socio-economic groupings on the edge. We are looking for a housing strategy that will not be all three-bedroomed houses but that the most vulnerable and marginalised will get access to housing.

We are also calling for an oversight body on rents and rent legislation. The private rented sector has always formed part of the market for housing homeless people. We need regulation in the rental market and for rent caps to be linked to inflation. We have had rent caps reduced in the past years. They need to be increased now to go with market value.

We do not want, as Deputy Ellis said, people heading into homelessness as a means of getting housing. We do not want families going into hotels which might be ten miles from their child’s school just to get access to housing. I believe we can end long-term homelessness, namely those who are homeless for over six months, by 2016. That is why we believe the acquisition of housing rather than its build over the next two years will help us hit that target.

Deputy Michael Kitt:

I welcome the delegations to this meeting. The Limerick delegation stated there was adequate land zoned for the building of houses. If we are to have a successful strategy, we need to have a mix of acquiring and building housing. Voluntary housing associations will often acquire parochial, diocesan or trust lands. Applications have gone in for the CAS, the capital assistance scheme, and decisions will be made on them soon. There might, however be an issue about acquiring land. Are the rural local authorities going that route?

How many cases of youth homelessness, particularly in Dublin, are there? Ghost estates are a big issue with rural local authorities.

There are many houses but they are in the wrong areas. I represent a rural part of Galway, which has houses but they are not in the right places, and this is also happening in Dublin with regard to families in hotels. They are also in the wrong place and should not be there. As Mr. Doyle mentioned, there is an issue of other Departments being involved with regard to education, employment and the health services. In Galway city, the Simon Community and the HSE try to organise dental, podiatry and chiropody services for people who are homeless. I fully support voluntary organisations being on a high-level group. There are two high-level groups and there is much analysis but not enough action. We would all agree on this. Mr. Doyle also mentioned establishing a special Oireachtas task force to examine the issue of homelessness. I suggest the committee could support this because it is a serious situation and the committee could feed into the policy, and the right policy would be deliverable. We could tackle the homeless issue through such a task force. I hope the committee will examine this.

Mr. Doyle also mentioned a dedicated unit in the Department and I fully support this. Will there be dedicated units in local authorities as there is with regard to tenant purchases or housing grants for disabled persons? Sometimes when one speaks to a local authority about mortgage-to-rent scheme cases, not much information is available and there is no dedicated unit for those who face eviction. We do not want to see evictions continuing if we can come up with a solution which would be acceptable to local authorities and the banks with regard to the various forms one must complete before one is even considered for the mortgage-to-rent scheme.

Michael McCarthy (Cork South West, Labour)
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Deputy Kitt raised an issue with regard to rural local authorities and I will ask the representatives from Limerick and Roscommon to reply.

Ms Caroline Curley:

The questions asked by Deputy Kitt were with regard to zoned lands and the role of voluntary housing associations. We have no issue with voluntary housing associations playing a role. In our submission we indicated that plenty of land is zoned to meet housing demand but the issue is getting the moneys freed up from the private sector to increase private output. I can only speak about Limerick and much of the talk here seems to be about larger urban areas such as Dublin and about the homelessness issue.
Deputy Kitt asked about youth homelessness and thankfully it is not a huge issue for Limerick. There is a regional homeless centre in Limerick and approximately 1,000 calls are received per week. We have sufficient and adequate beds in the city and we work hand in hand with a number of voluntary agencies. We do not have people on the streets.
Limerick is very fortunate with regard to ghost estates as it was unfortunate during the boom and they are not a large issue. We are in the process of acquiring one of the ghost estates in the city which will be used for social housing. It takes much paperwork with regard to receiverships or NAMA.
Having dedicated units in local authorities depends on the size of the local authority. In some smaller local authorities all staff must be au faitwith all areas. Some schemes may not be promoted or do not work. We have only had a handful of cases in Limerick for the rent-to-buy scheme, but people are well used to dealing with voluntary agencies and bodies and are familiar with the schemes they operate.

Mr. Tommy Ryan:

The ghost estates were planned during the boom when we had continuous growth. There are some ghost estates in smaller towns and villages in Roscommon which were developed in accordance with population projections at the time. Due to the downturn in the economy, there is not the same demand for houses in these locations. The demand for social housing in smaller towns and villages has also fallen. Many unfinished estates are in smaller towns and villages where demand for social housing is not high. The demand is in larger urban centres such as Roscommon town and Monksland, which is near Athlone. This leads to a supply issue as these areas do not have enough housing. There will be a need for some form of construction programme, such as direct provision by the local authority, long-term leasing from the private sector or approved housing bodies under the capital advance leasing facility, CALF. Rents for private accommodation are increasing so the only solution in larger urban areas is to begin construction.

Roscommon has a number of small local parish approved housing bodies and I am not sure whether CALF would be suitable for them because it is not fully funded. These bodies are not in a position to avail of it and it will only be available to larger housing bodies. This will leave a gap in smaller towns and villages such as we have in Roscommon and east Galway. I do not know how this can be dealt with unless through direct provision by local authorities or a change to the scheme which would suit small housing bodies. We have a demand for houses throughout a large geographical area but the unfinished estates will not resolve the problem.

Ms Kathleen McKillion:

What Mr. Ryan outlined is also the feedback we have received from our smaller members throughout the country. The Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government acknowledges that CAS works by providing the association with a percentage of the market rent paid to the landlord who receives a deduction because the housing association is managing the property, or there is a loan through the Housing Finance Agency or the local bank. The percentage is based on the market rent, so where market rent is low outside Dublin it does not stack up financially. There is an absolute deficit in housing supply throughout the country and it is acknowledged it will work in urban towns. This is why CAS is critical with regard to acquisition and new build.

Mr. Pat Doyle:

I echo what Ms McKillion stated. It is also not suitable for specialist housing associations such as the Peter McVerry Trust which works with the more lower threshold groupings. One cannot apply to build 20 units in one location for very difficult and challenging people. One needs a pepperpot approach with scattered housing, for which acquisitions are perfect.

To answer Deputy Kitt's question on youth homelessness, this will always be an issue so long as large amounts of alcohol are consumed in homes. So long as alcohol is readily available from off-licences there will be family violence and break up and generally young people walk in response to this. There is also the issue of parents prematurely dying because of alcohol and drug misuse and children walk away.

In the past week we picked up two teenagers aged 19 and 17. Their parents had died prematurely and the younger child was in the care of the older child, whom we still consider a child but whom the State considers an adult. Their landlord increased the rent and they walked. We were asked to pick them up between Gardiner Street and Dorset Street. We did so and they have been housed. We also picked up two brothers, aged 20 and 17, at a railway station on the south side. We received a call from Irish Rail to state they were sleeping in the railway station. They had never been in homeless services but their mother fled from domestic violence and while the mother and young daughters were taken into a refuge, the two boys were not. It was considered to be a child protection issue to have them in a refuge with younger children. They were left to sleep in the railway station and we picked them up.

We will always have a problem with youth homelessness and the issue is how we respond to it and the services we put in place. We could support the two boys in an apartment setting where we visit them. They do not need to come into homeless services, or to be introduced to drugs and criminality in the city centre. We could house them in an apartment and visit them daily if we had access to apartments. The difference between now and two years ago is that back then we would have put them into private rented accommodation, paid a deposit upfront and then seen what we could get back from the Department of Social Protection later, but now we compete with 22 other people for the same private rented accommodation. This is why we need a return to acquisitions.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I welcome everyone here. I also welcome this discussion because there is no more urgent discussion to have and I hope it will lead to action and policy change.

Do the delegations categorise the current situation as a crisis? I want to know because one cannot begin to address the problem unless one alerts people to how serious it is. Maybe the problem is more acute in my area than in other areas. Deputy Catherine Murphy has alluded to the fact that the problem is very bad in Kildare and we have heard testimony from Limerick and so on. I would describe the problem in Dún Laoghaire as an emergency because I have never seen anything like it. The staff in Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown council have been completely overwhelmed by what is going on. My office has become an extension of the welfare, homeless and housing departments of the Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council with the arrival of a number of families in dire circumstances. I have never seen a situation where the council literally says to people, "We do not know what to do. We have nowhere to put you." That is how bad it is. If we are going to force the issue on to the Government's priority agenda then we need to name it as a crisis. Do the delegations agree with me that this is a crisis?

The Peter McVerry Trust alluded to the fact this crisis did not start in the past two or three years and that a build-up to the problem was already apparent during the boom. I wholeheartedly concur with its view. Housing has always been the biggest issue for me and accounts for about 80% of what I deal with. The problem has got severely worse but it has always been the biggest issue for me.

In terms of a starting point for dealing with the matter, it is important that we recognise there has been a market failure in terms of the provision of affordable and social housing. Do the delegations agree with me?

I am worried by the fact that the Taoiseach still talks about the issue in terms of the need for 25,000 houses to be provided per year. I am worried by the fact that he has not made a distinction between commercial and for-profit provided housing and affordable and social housing which, in my opinion, are two very distinct things. Do the delegations agree with me? I do not believe that the for-profit market can resolve the problem. As the McVerry Trust has stated, the government did not resolve the matter during the boom and the problem has worsened since the bust. The idea that the market can deal with the problem is, to my mind, fantasy in the extreme. The distinction has not been spelled out in the responses received from the Government on the nature of the crisis. I would like the delegations to comment on the matter.

Can we start to name figures for what needs to be done? We had a drama concerning numbers in the Dáil when we discussed the matter. When we said the budgets were being cut the Government replied this was not the case and that new money was now available for social housing and so on. Then one looked at the figures and was left wondering. The latest figure to emerge is 400 which means we will have 400 new houses. How many social and affordable houses do the delegations think we need? I do not mean the general provision of housing supply. How many social and affordable houses do we need? It is our opinion that we need 10,000 per year for five years minimum in order to deal with the crisis.

There are short-term and long-term characteristics to the crisis which were spelled out by the organisations. What will we do in the short-term? I direct my questions first to the McVerry Trust and then Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council, in particular. What can we say to the families who live in diabolical and unacceptable conditions? I am dealing with many of them and know that the council is very familiar with them also. What can we do? What has to be said and done to get people out of dire situations? Nobody should have to drag their kids ten or 15 km across a city, as is currently happening. Do we need a policy whereby a person, for example, in Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown is not sent to another administrative district for emergency accommodation? That should be the case and is self-evident.

Michael McCarthy (Cork South West, Labour)
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Shall I ask the Peter McVerry Trust and then Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council to answer in that order?

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Yes. I have a couple of more questions and the first one is on rent caps. I am not in favour of pumping rent allowance into the pockets of private landlords but rents are spiralling. Should we vary rent caps in the short term?

Community welfare officers are restricted to a rent allowance cap. Can the council confirm that the councils in RAS arrangements often pay way over the cap in order to keep landlords and stop them walking away from RAS arrangements? If the council can breach the cap but individuals cannot get the community welfare officer to do so then that is double standards which is a crazy scenario. I also want to know what the delegations think of long-term leasing arrangements.

As the council people cannot comment on policy and so on I shall direct my last question at the McVerry Trust. What does the trust think about the re-introduction of property-based tax reliefs to encourage speculation, as I would describe it, in the property sector through, for example, real estate investment trusts? Does the trust consider, as I do, the initiative to be a worrying return to the practices around property that helped produce the crash in the first place?

Michael McCarthy (Cork South West, Labour)
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I suggest that we finish after the witnesses reply and after I call Deputy Catherine Murphy back in because we must vacate the committee room shortly. I call Mr. Doyle.

Mr. Pat Doyle:

There is a lot to get in but I shall try my best.

Michael McCarthy (Cork South West, Labour)
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The last contribution took more than five minutes.

Mr. Pat Doyle:

The first thing we said today was that we need a national housing strategy to match the very welcome homeless strategy announced by the Minister. We need a housing strategy in order to ensure, or try to ensure, that we do not return to the failures of the past. The last boom did not work for homeless people as evidenced by the fact that the number of people homeless increased. During the boom we all knew people who had a second home and it was so prevalent that people thought they were doing something wrong by not having one. People felt inadequate if they could not claim to have a house in somewhere like Bulgaria and maybe one in Sligo as well. We do not want a return to that situation and we do not want incentives created to encourage people to start speculating again in the property sector. That is not what we are about and is why we want a housing strategy that includes all elements of social housing, particularly for families and people who are young or single.

We also want social housing for people with complex mental health needs who are never going to marry or have children but need to be housed in the community. We want to do that work alongside our colleagues in the local authority. We work closely with our local authority colleagues. Although they are extremely busy and swamped, as we all are, they are not out of their depth. However, they have been hampered by cuts in staff levels, embargoes and reduced budgets yet have the will and desire to bring about change. Nobody wants to be saying to people, "I can't do anything for you". The fact that people have said it shows how much the system has failed. The staff of the McVerry Trust, along with our local authority colleagues, do their best to alleviate the situation.

With regard to rents, the Minister announced about two years that she was reducing rents because they were falling and the market required it but now we need them to go back up again. We need rents to be linked with inflation. We need an index-linked rent system for the following reasons. It would allow us to control the market; it would not allow it to go bust; and it would allow people in desperate need to break into the market. It would also allow people who are in the market to stay put if they have not been given letters by landlords threatening that their non-payment of €200 next month, for example, which would leave them out on the street and push them into the homeless market.

Let us remember that it is the most chaotic and vulnerable people who get stuck in homeless services. We want to get families in and out of the system as quickly as possible. Nobody wants their kids going to school saying they are homeless and nobody wants their kids to travel 15 km either. We have a local housing strategy in place that we try to follow but it have been very difficult. We feel that the homeless response needs to be locally based which is what we have done. The trust has been given a contract to open a new hostel in south Dublin, the first in the south Dublin area. We pursued that strategy because we believe that homeless services should be based in the community.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Are there spaces available in the hostel?

Mr. Pat Doyle:

We are full. The hostel has been over-prescribed.

We also need accommodation in Kildare. The only option for a person who lives in north Kildare but seeks a homeless service is to go to Dublin city or south Kildare because there is nothing available in north Kildare. There is also Maynooth, Leixlip and Celbridge.

These are huge population hubs without a single hostel among them - I live there. As for how much housing is needed, the Deputy was probably talking about a national figure and at the moment, we are regional. We are Dublin-based and are going into Wicklow and Kildare at the moment. Moreover, we are hoping to do some business with our colleagues in Limerick but I probably am not allowed to say that in this room. However, we have written to Limerick County Council and have offered our services. In particular, we wish to go into communities such as Moyross and other estates like that, because that is what we grew out of, namely, Ballymun and other estates. The Deputy should remember that the only regeneration project to be continued was the one in Limerick and so we would love to do some work there but that is end of the pitch. As for how many units we need, I would say 2,000 to 3,000 units and not 10,000 units. The Deputy may be aware of different figures nationally. In Dublin however, were 2,000 units to be brought online annually and if we knew they were coming online for the next three or four years, we could do a huge amount to accommodate families and to bring down the numbers in hostels, thereby allowing the most vulnerable at least to get a hostel bed. I hope that answers the question.

Michael McCarthy (Cork South West, Labour)
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The next speaker will be from Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council.

Mr. Tom McHugh:

I wish to echo the point made by Mr. Pat Doyle on the need for a housing strategy. Our submission to the joint committee has identified a number of possible solutions or assists towards solutions in providing a more strategic and integrated approach to the entire issue including all stakeholders, which includes the voluntary housing bodies, the local authorities and the financial institutions. In respect of rents, rent caps, the rental accommodation scheme, RAS, and so on, Mr. Pat Doyle's reference to some level of indexation whereby rents would not be increased without regard to some measurement makes sense. To what it is indexed would have to be teased out and that probably is a longer-term solution because I cannot envisage such a regulation being introduced in the short term. There is a difficulty at present in respect of rent caps, competition between local authorities and people trying to obtain private rented accommodation but as I have said a few times in the past, the problem at present is the supply simply is not there. If that supply is not there at a time when people are trying to obtain private rented accommodation and the local authority is trying to enter into leasing and RAS arrangements, then this competition arises. The local authority is not subject to the rent caps on rent supplement. Ours is based on market value or a discounted rate on the market value that exists at the moment.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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To clarify, in cases where rents are increased by landlords in RAS arrangements or whatever, Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council is breaching the caps which individuals cannot breach in private arrangements with landlords.

Mr. Tom McHugh:

What I have said is the local authority is not subject to the social welfare caps that are in place. We base our arrangements on a discounted current market value. I understand those rent caps are being reviewed at present. They were last reviewed in June of last year. My understanding was they were not due to be reviewed for a period of 18 months but I understand that has been brought forward. At present, however, the main difficulty is the lack of supply, which means the entire market has compressed and there is increased competition for those units. At present, no units are available in our county that would be at or under the social welfare rent caps at present. I think that is all.

Michael McCarthy (Cork South West, Labour)
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I call on Mr. McManus, to be followed by Deputy Catherine Murphy.

Mr. Donal McManus:

To reply to Deputy Boyd Barrett, who mentioned crisis and so forth, one could argue there have been crises over the past 20 years of oversupply followed by undersupply, followed by oversupply and so on. However, I believe the point to which he was getting is that social housing is all about market failure. It must be recognised that there is a failure in the market, regardless of whether one calls it a crisis or market failure. I do not know whether the political system is strong enough yet to bring forward the concept of social housing equating to market failure but it must be articulated much more clearly within the political system because it is market failure. Unless one is in Vienna, which has supply as a first choice, one must look at market failure linked to social housing. That must be put on the now in the Dáil in the future. We encourage people to do that.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Independent)
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I wish to revert to a couple of questions I asked previously. We talked about RAS and how what is being paid is over and above what people are getting in rent supplement. However, Limerick City Council has told the joint committee that landlords are withdrawing from RAS, which also is my experience. I believe this is happening where other options are available. How can housing assistance payment, HAP, work if the payments to landlords are lower than the payments for RAS? This is the point I am trying to ascertain because there is no suggestion that these rent caps will be increased significantly. Indeed, when listening to what the Minister for Social protection has to say, while she has indicated she intends to examine the rent caps, she has not stated she will increase the amount in the overall budget for rent caps. This is a significant issue with regard to making HAP work because the joint committee is going to write a report on HAP.

The second issue pertains to resources and I asked a question in this regard earlier. For example, Limerick is the lead authority on HAP, slightly more than 190,000 people live in Limerick and there are 1,075 staff members. However, 210,000 people live in County Kildare and the local authority has 620 staff members. Resources are not deployed equally around the country and the maintenance of RAS and of leasing is very labour intensive. What is Limerick City Council doing in this regard in terms of HAP and the business plan? This is being put out as being a transformative initiative and I agree that in principle, the idea of people not being caught in a poverty trap is transformative. However, it is of no value if it does not work in reality. The amount that is being allocated for renting these properties and the resources to actually run the scheme are the two critical points and unless they are got right, it will not work.

In one further point, I am pleased this issue of homelessness is being perceived as being wider than simply a Dublin issue. I acknowledge completely that it is a major issue in Dublin but it is an issue outside of that city as well. When one talks about numbers, it tends to only be the Dublin numbers that are counted. I personally am dealing with 14 homeless families this week in my office. It is just crazy stuff.

Michael McCarthy (Cork South West, Labour)
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Does Ms Curley wish to respond?

Ms Caroline Curley:

I will respond to the Deputy as best I can. As she stated, Limerick is running the pilot on HAP and the reason to have a pilot scheme is to try to tweak or find out any issues that might arise. All I can do is to confirm that HAP is there and the landlords are embracing it. More than 40 landlords have agreed to sign up at this point. They have tenants in receipt of rent supplement and what is in it for them is they are guaranteed their full payment. Even at that, it is in arrears, but they seem to be happy to come on board with the full payment upfront and from the local authority, as opposed to relying on the tenant to pay them. They are in there with that. We have come across a number where the cap has become an issue. We are running the HAP pilot on an administrative basis and the way we are dealing with those is simply by recording them, because part of this is the learning exercise, that is, to be able to go back and ask what policy is needed to deal with that. To date, it only has been anecdotal evidence that there is an issue with the caps whereas we now are documenting it and it will allow for a better decision to be made.

As for the staff, I did not grasp fully the Deputy's ratio. All I can confirm is what we did in Limerick. HAP is in competition with RAS because one is dealing with the same cohort of people, that is, people who have a long-term housing need who have been in receipt of rent supplement for more than 18 months. In order to run the pilot in Limerick, we made the decision to take staff from our RAS unit. That way, they could hit the ground running. They already were familiar with a number of the clients, were familiar with the landlords and were able to deal with it. It remains to be seen, as we go on and take on more, what the resources will be but again, this is what the pilot is there for, that is, to learn whether we can cope, to learn what are the issues and to decide on what the staffing levels should be to deal with it.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Independent)
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I got the figures on the staff levels of local authorities in response to a parliamentary question. Using Kildare as an example of moving RAS staff to the HAP scheme, I note there is one RAS staff member. The flexibility is not there and one is not comparing like with like nationwide.

Ms Caroline Curley:

That goes with everything we have discussed here this morning. There are different issues and different problems.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Independent)
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Yes, I accept that.

Michael McCarthy (Cork South West, Labour)
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That brings proceedings to a close. I thank all the witnesses. This has been an important engagement that will be of enormous help with the report the committee will produce.