Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Wednesday, 7 May 2014
Joint Oireachtas Committee on Transport and Communications
School Transport Scheme: Bus Éireann
2:40 pm
John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I apologise for the delay. We had some issues to clarify in our private meeting, which went over time. The purpose of this meeting is to engage with Bus Éireann in regard to the procurement process for the awarding of contracts under the school transport scheme. In the interest of transparency, I wish to put on record that I have previously tabled parliamentary questions relating to Bus Éireann, including matters relating to procurement. These questions are a matter of public record.
On behalf of the committee I welcome Mr. Martin Nolan, chief executive officer of Bus Éireann, who is accompanied by his colleagues, Ms Andrea Keane, chief financial officer and company secretary; Mr. Gerry Gannon, manager of schools transport; Mr. Joe Kenny, manager of human resources and regional manager for the east; Mr. Colm Costello, group chief solicitor; and Ms Margaret Hubbard, procurement and materials manager. At this point the committee will not discuss any allegations made against Bus Éireann related to the school transport scheme or any investigations undertaken by Bus Éireann into allegations made. The substance of the allegations falls outside the committee's remit and relates to matters more appropriately dealt with by the courts. There is litigation in train on the matters relating to those allegations and the committee is mindful of allowing that litigation to take its course without any interference.
I draw the attention of the witnesses to the fact that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against a person or an entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. I also advise that the opening statements submitted to the committee will be published on its website after the meeting. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.
Before allowing Mr. Nolan to begin, I reiterate that we are not here to discuss any allegations made against Bus Éireann relating to the school transport scheme or the detail of any investigations undertaken. I ask Mr. Nolan to limit his presentation to ten minutes as members have received the full document already. Perhaps we could gain more from the meeting with the questions from members. We will not blow the whistle after exactly ten minutes.
2:45 pm
Mr. Martin Nolan:
I will speak to some parts of the document. The Chairman has already introduced the people accompanying me, and I have brought various levels of expertise to answer any questions. We have expertise on school transport, financial and legal issues, as well as procurement. I thank the committee for giving me the opportunity to address it, and we have been invited here to discuss the procurement process for the awarding of contracts under the school transport scheme.
Bus Éireann is a large, complex organisation with up to 10,000 people working, or in reserve, to deliver our services to rural and provincial Ireland on a daily basis. We are a competitive public transport company based in communities throughout the land. Our ethos is to think national but act local, where the greatest knowledge of local transport requirements and resources reside. We are a safe, effective and efficient provider which has delivered large savings during recent economic conditions.
The school transport scheme delivery is complex but its purpose is simple in terms of its support for access to education policy. It is to get 114,000 rural children to or from school safely twice daily. There are 40 million journeys on the scheme annually, and it is a public private partnership, where 90% of the services are delivered privately under our direction and to our standards. We are one of the largest supporters of rural Ireland, with nearly €110 million in 2013 alone being paid to 1,400 contractors directly employing 5,500 people. This money gives them the basic income to run their businesses but also ensures that 3,500 vehicles are available in rural Ireland to provide other emergency, sports and social transport services that might not otherwise be there if we ran the school transport scheme in a different fashion. We also provide direct employment in rural Ireland. The school transport scheme does not make a profit for Bus Éireann, and all moneys received under the scheme are spent on the scheme.
I will give a brief update on the general company before discussing how school transport works and procurement. Currently, Bus Éireann provides nationwide bus and coach services across three core products. There is the public service contract, including city, commuter and rural services, to the National Transport Authority, NTA. A second product is the school transport scheme, operated on behalf of the Department of Education and Skills, and the third product is our commercial Expressway services. The operations and delivery of the three products are fundamentally linked, and we try to run as many products or services out of rural depots to ensure the efficiency of all products and provide a good service to communities. We are no different in that regard from An Post in that for us to maintain rural depots and services, we need to put as many products as possible through those depots to spread the costs. Expressway services have had a difficult time in the recession through lower patronage and additional competition but I am pleased to say these services have achieved a break-even position.
It must be remembered that the main remit for Expressway services in a public service organisation is to help defray the cost of the public services to the State. The overhead absorbed by the commercial product is €5 million to €7 million per annum and also these services cover towns and villages that are not commercially viable. If those services had to be replaced, it would cost a further €6 million to €7 million. Our subvention is currently €32 million per annum but if the commercial services disappear, another €11 million to €14 million per annum would need to be found to maintain services. We also could make the same services more profitable by coming out of more towns and villages but that is not part of the company's ethos. We understand the necessity to maintain as many commercial services as we can for rural Ireland but it has to be recognised that we are putting ourselves at a commercial disadvantage in doing so.
Bus Éireann is the largest customer of the bus and coach industry and related suppliers in Ireland. Our employment and contracts are a huge boost to rural Ireland, especially during difficult economic times. In its dealings, Bus Éireann is committed to the highest standards of propriety, quality, honesty, openness and accountability with all of its customers, staff and business partners.
We have had a difficult time over the past seven years, like most of the rest of the country. Nevertheless, we have delivered 30% savings on subvention for public services since 2009 and Bus Éireann has implemented two staff cost reduction programmes in that timeframe. There has been a 12% reduction in internal staff numbers, with twice the number of back office staff leaving as those from the front office. Overall operating costs have reduced by 15% in that time but we have also managed to maintain very high customer satisfaction levels. In that time we have re-engineered our network and the ground work is there for the next few years in the current network. We should recognise the part played by the NTA in the process, and we have also implemented new technology, new systems and new additions to the fleet. All of these improvements have helped governance, operational efficiency and safety and quality assurance in the company.
I will explain the context of our relationship with the Department of Education and Skills. Bus Éireann manages the school transport scheme on behalf of the Department, subject to the policy requirements and criteria of the scheme as set out. In order for the scheme to operate effectively, it is necessary for the Department and Bus Éireann to ensure that they co-operate closely in respect of a broad range of functions and policy matters. Overall responsibility for the provision of school transport lies with the Department of Education and Skills, and the Department oversees its general administration.
The operation of a safe school transport service, provided in an efficient and effective manner, is the highest priority for Bus Éireann in its management of the scheme. Bus Éireann operates three separate schemes on behalf of the Department, each with their own distinct criteria, under the umbrella of the national school transport scheme. These are the primary school transport scheme, the post-primary school transport scheme, and the school transport scheme for children with special educational needs arising from a diagnosed disability. One third of the cost of the scheme is on special needs.
As part of this responsibility, Bus Éireann ensures that schemes are applied nationally in an impartial, uniform and equitable fashion on behalf of the Department. The scheme is a policy instrument designed to facilitate the achievement of the objectives of educational policy. Bus Éireann is very conscious of its responsibility to ensure that the nation’s children are conveyed to and from school by the safest and most reliable means of transport possible in the most efficient and effective manner. A wide range of measures and controls are in place to enhance the safety of our school transport services.
These include operational performance checks as well as checks on driver licences, insurance, PSV licences, the vehicles used, the nominated drivers that contractors must tell us about and the background Garda vetting check under which almost 12,000 individuals have been processed at this stage.
The school transport scheme is a very significant operation serving over 114,000 children, approximately 10,000 of whom have special educational needs. We serve almost 3,000 schools with 4,000 vehicles operating over 6,000 routes. Over 40 million individual journeys are undertaken in the scheme every year. The number of vehicles involved is more than the combined fleets of Dublin Bus and Bus Éireann. The management of the school bus network is co-ordinated and integrated where possible with the provision of local transport services. For example, over 3,000 schoolchildren use Bus Éireann's other services and use the rail and bus services of Dublin Bus.
In the annual statement of accounts in 2008, the cost of the scheme was €162 million. Over €30 million has been saved by Bus Éireann, working in conjunction with the Department of Education and Skills, from this figure and largely reinvested in 750 new services and 2,000 service improvements. Over €20 million of this amount was saved due to re-organisations of the network of contractor and Bus Éireann services undertaken on an ongoing basis by our local school transport offices, as well as through renegotiation of contract rates and retendering of existing contracted work. Since 2008, and in view of the serious financial challenges facing the country, Bus Éireann has also provided a rebate to the Department, the cumulative value of which amounts to some €10.5 million. These positive results echo the findings of the value for money review of the school transport scheme which endorsed Bus Éireann's role stating, "There is not an alternative national organisation with a regional dimension currently operating in Ireland which is an alternative to Bus Éireann for operating the school transport system", and, "No existing organisation is operating in Ireland with the range of expertise in place other than Bus Éireann."
Our services are organised across five regions through 11 local offices. Each region is under the authority of a regional manager who is responsible for all services in that region, including the procurement of contractors subject to procurement policy and the renegotiation of contract rates. We use a mix of our own vehicle resources and those of contractors to deliver school transport services. As noted in previous reports, this maximises economy and efficiency while at the same time retaining the ability to maintain full service coverage in the event of a threat to service for whatever reason. Almost 90% of the vehicles used to provide school transport services are provided by private contractors. Since the late 1990s the number of vehicles in the scheme has more than doubled from some 1,700 contractor vehicles in 1998 to over 3,400 now.
In the Celtic tiger years the number of new services required each year surpassed the level of interest received from the market. The way the system worked then was that we placed advertisements in local and national newspapers and when contractors applied they were put onto a panel. The local offices then drew up lists of suitable operators from the panel and invited them to quote for work when it became available. In our experience there tended to be little or no interest in school transport contract work when the economy was strong because other more lucrative opportunities were available. In 1999, for example, only 42 applications were received nationally from private operators and of these, 26 failed to meet the necessary standards in terms of documentation. All of the remaining 16 were recruited but a further 69 were needed to meet demand and these had to be found through canvassing of existing contractors.
Between 2001 and 2008 the shortage of suitable potential contractors was so acute and the additional cost that was invariably involved in recruiting new operators to replace those withdrawing from the scheme meant that, by agreement with the Department, existing contracts could only be opened to tender in very limited circumstances. There was more than sufficient new work being introduced each year to satisfy what demand there was from the market, with an average of 200 to 300 new vehicles needed annually. Quotations were always sought for new work from a minimum of three suitable operators, where possible.
In 2008 and by agreement with the Department, 150 existing services were retendered, but only 36 large buses were offered by the market in response. As the economy declined, interest grew again and in 2010 a more structured approach to the procurement of contractors was introduced with the introduction of an award criteria and a scoring matrix. In 2011 a revised tendering process was introduced, further enhancing the existing process. This is a competitive procurement process conducted in accordance with the negotiated procedure under EU Directive 2004/17/EC. This is the process now in place.
The revised tendering process is managed by each of the 11 local school transport offices and overseen by the procurement and materials department of Bus Éireann. The local school transport offices receive and evaluate all tender responses and the procurement and materials department liaises with and advises the local school transport offices on any queries that may arise during the process.
We advertise onetenders.gov.ie and in the Official Journal of the European Unioneach year. A pre-qualification questionnaire, PQQ, document is attached to the notice and can be downloaded or obtained from the local school transport office. These PQQs are submitted to Bus Éireann. Our written submission goes into great detail on the procurement process, including outlining what happens to both successful and unsuccessful tenderers and the negotiating procedure we go through so I will not go into that now.
Under the revised process, 100% of existing contracted work is subject to tender at least once in five years on the basis of an average 20% per year. Successful operators under this process are awarded a five-year contract. The panels of pre-qualified applicants established in each local regional office are also utilised when new work arises and is being introduced for the first time. In this case a minimum of three quotes are sought. The tendering process allows Bus Éireann to achieve the procurement objectives in terms of value for money, access to the contracts for all interested parties, transparency on how the contracts are awarded and equality of treatment. It is also in line with Government policy where expenditure of public funds is concerned.
The procurement process is large in a European context. If the call for tender for the east of the country went out in one go, for example, 150,000 documents would have to be sent out. That is why we do 20% per annum. It is a very significant undertaking which is executed impartially and fairly across the country. Since 2011 the annual re-organisation of services undertaken by Bus Éireann school transport offices has generated some €15.8 million in savings, with €4.63 million of this figure coming from the retendering of existing services under this procurement process.
As already mentioned, Bus Éireann is committed to the highest standards of propriety, quality, honesty, openness and accountability in its dealings with all of its customers, staff and business partners. We have a strong system of internal controls in the company, through both the board audit committee and the CIE audit committee but both our internal and external auditors constantly review systems for weaknesses and recommend improvements. We have a good faith reporting system rather than a whistle-blowing system which deals with the responsibilities of employees and management for the detection and reporting of any alleged impropriety or fraud.
The CIE group's code of business ethics for employees is very important and has been circulated to all employees in the company. This code establishes the principles of honesty, integrity and legality, among other principles, with which Bus Éireann employees are expected to conduct their business. Bus Éireann takes allegations of misconduct by Bus Éireann employees with respect to the operation of the school transport service very seriously and has carried out athorough and comprehensive investigation, in line with company control procedures and governance. As a complaint was made against specific named Bus Éireann employees and not against Bus Éireann itself, it was appropriate for the company to investigate the complaint in the first instance as an employer. The Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, the Minister of State with responsibility for commuter and public transport, and the Minister of State with responsibility for training and skills requested a full report from Bus Éireann into the entire matter. This report was completed and signed off by the Bus Éireann audit review group, ARG, and our chairman. The ARG is also attended by the CIE group head of internal audit and the CIE group chief operating officer. This has now been completed and circulated not just to the three Ministers but to this committee and the Committee of Public Accounts.
With reference to the original allegation the investigation team reached the conclusion that there was no basis for the allegations ---
2:55 pm
John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I should inform Mr. Nolan that allegations of misconduct are outside the remit of this committee.
John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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That is fine but we are acting on legal advice and I just wanted Mr. Nolan to be aware of that.
3:05 pm
John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I accept that.
Mr. Martin Nolan:
We are where we are.
Bus Éireann is a complex company with a public service ethos that has been competing successfully across a range of public and commercial products. Its success in keeping these products bundled is fundamental to maintaining services in rural areas. The basicincome of the scheme for small contractors has a much wider bearing on keeping the rural social fabric going. We are a well governed company and group with the appropriate checks and balances. We have recently agreed that the Comptroller and Auditor General can have access to our financial records for schools. To our knowledge this is the first time a semi-State company has done this. The company also comes under the freedom of information legislation. We are a company that thinks national but acts local for the good of the community. The vast majority of Bus Éireann staff live in the communities in which they work and understand their duty of care and responsibility to deliver people from A to B in a safe, effective and efficient manner.
The school transport scheme does not make a profit for Bus Éireann. All moneys received under the scheme are spent on the scheme. Bus Éireann has significant skill and expertise in all aspects of operating a safe and efficient school transport scheme and these skills are utilised by the Department of Education and Skills in order to operate the scheme. School transport is a very different operation from the PSO services. Its remit is much more than just transport, it was established with the objective of facilitating equality of access to primary and post-primary education by providing transport to children who might otherwise have difficulty in attending school regularly. The school transport scheme is administered by Bus Éireann and is designed to assist in implementing educational policy as determined by the Department of Education and Skills.
I thank the Chairman for the opportunity to address the committee and I welcome questions.
Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome Mr. Nolan and his senior staff from Bus Éireann and thank him for providing his opening statement in advance.
I am disappointed that as a member of this committee I am not in a position to have had sight of the documents that have been sent to the secretariat by Bus Éireann and the whistleblowers. The committee has taken a decision on legal advise, from which I dissented, not to circulate the documents. It is my belief that this is a fundamental flaw in our system. It impacts negatively on me as a public representative that I am expected to deal with matters that come before me but by the wish of the committee may not look into issues of such a serious nature that have been making headlines in the media, for example, issues on the way taxpayer's money is spent, matters that go to the core of the administration of the State. Notwithstanding the situation that has developed in other institutions of State in the past number of years, some people choose not to learn from these lessons. I am disappointed about that. I will remain within the legal guidelines that have been outlined in spite of my objection to it.
My questions relate only to overall policy matters as I am constrained from dealing with the pertinent issues that Mr. Nolan seems to want to discuss.
In his statement Mr. Nolan states: "The school transport scheme does not make a profit for Bus Éireann". The recently published report conducted by FGS for the Department of Education and Skills looks at the totality of the school transport scheme and in Appendix 4 it discusses Bus Éireann's indirect cost workings. It states that the charges are comprised of direct costs, 13% add-on for other cost recovery, and reasonable profit, depreciation and interest. It goes on to state that the 13% add-on to the direct cost charged to the Department of Education and Skills in the statement of account is intended to provide for direct cost not included in the school account, indirect cost incurred by Bus Éireann, shared indirect costs which provide services for both road passenger and school operations and reasonable profit. The reasonable profit element is to compensate Bus Éireann for other items such as reputational risk, exposure to risk, capital investment risk and so on.
The FGS is a reputable accounting and auditing company and it believes that the Department of Education and Skills is paying Bus Éireann a figure that encompasses a figure for profit. As the Department of Education and Skills published this FGS report, it must be the Department's view also. I am not going to make allegations about how Bus Éireann prepares its accounts, but can Mr. Nolan try to help me in bridging what the FGS report states and what Mr. Nolan said in his opening statement that the school transport scheme does not make a profit for Bus Éireann?
Mr. Nolan explained the difficulties in procurements during the better economic times and that in 2011 the company changed procedures to reflect the 2004 EU directive. Will he give us the detail in percentage terms from 2011 to 2013, inclusive, of the routes awarded in accordance with the 2004 directive?
I wish to deal with the policy matters rather than the specifics of the investigation. Mr. Nolan states that the investigation team reached the conclusion that there was no basis for the allegations, no basis for disciplining any employee and no basis to refer the matter to An Garda Síochána. Further on he states that whereas we cannot categorically deny or conclude that it never happened, there is no evidence to suggest that any gift has been accepted by any individual that breaches the company code of ethics. He further states that information that has come into the public domain in recent times does not add anything to that. Specific allegations have been made in a Sunday newspaper-----
John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Dooley I want to do this straight down the middle. I said it to Mr. Nolan and I am repeating it to Deputy Dooley, I do not want any reference to this. As he is entitled to do, Deputy Dooley has brought into the public domain that he is a dissenting voice from this decision. I want to put on record that the Committee on Transport and Communications got legal advice and it is the decision of the committee that we would not allow anything to prejudice the cases that are ongoing in the courts so as to allow justice to be done in the place that justice can be done.
Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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The Chairman will also note that the decision that was taken precludes members of the committee from being circulated with the documents that were rightly provided to us. At no time during the private discussion did I seek to follow a course of action that would have had in any way an impact on a court case. I think that when documents are circulated by a semi-State agency to members, there is an absolute entitlement for members of the committee to have sight of those documents.
John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The overall decision of the committee was to take the legal advice. The Deputy has stated publicly that he has dissented from that view, and he is perfectly entitled to do so. The decision that was taken is on the public record. We do not want a rerun of the arguments made in private session.
Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I reserve the right to seek redress in the courts based on my legal advice.
John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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We do not want to prejudice the rights of people involved in court cases. I do not want to prejudice the Deputy's rights. I support the Deputy's rights.
Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Thank you Chairman. Based on Mr. Nolan's assertion that nothing has come into the public domain that would lead him to change his approach in regard to the investigation that was carried out previously and notwithstanding the legal advice he has been given, will he try to give us some comfort as to how he has arrived at that conclusion? Am I asking Mr. Nolan to do more than is possible in light of the constraints imposed?
3:15 pm
John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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As I said earlier, Mr. Nolan can answer the questions that fall within the remit that we have been given.
Mr. Martin Nolan:
That is grand. At this stage, we have provided all possible information on these documents. We have provided a full and detailed report to the three Ministers and the two committees. I can say, without going into the individual allegations, that they go into the procurement process, the company's ethics policy and its good faith reporting policy in great detail. Most of the documents involved in the report are in the public domain anyway. They are brought together in the report in a fashion that makes it quite clear where our conclusions come from. I do not think I can say much more to the Deputy on that.
The CIE group has a strong ethics policy which is set out on its website. Employees are not entitled to accept gifts or hospitality worth more than €70, which is a minute value. One has to get permission from one's boss, etc. From a procurement point of view, over 80% of school transport contracts have gone out in the public domain at this stage and have been re-tendered. The last 20% of contracts, including all the special needs services, are out at the moment.
I thank the Deputy for asking a question about the FGS report. The funds within the school transport scheme are hermetically sealed within that scheme. Any reserves that exist are spent on school transport. As this is a complex area, I will ask the chief financial officer, Ms Andrea Keane, to bring the committee through it in a little more detail.
Ms Andrea Keane:
I reiterate our chief executive's statement that Bus Éireann does not make any profit from its operation and management of the school transport scheme. I will set out the ways in which all the money received in respect of the scheme is spent on the scheme. It is spent on the direct provision of services; on the indirect overheads of Bus Éireann in running the scheme; on capital reinvestment within the scheme; on one-off costs which would include, for example, voluntary severance payments to deliver further efficiencies for the scheme; and on the risk reserve. The risk reserve, which is held in the company's account and ring-fenced for schools, deals with unforeseen charges which can and do arise from time to time. It might be helpful for the Deputy to note, following his comments about the FGS report specifically, that the report states that profit can have a wide range of meanings and notes that what is commonly referred to as profit within the report exists to compensate Bus Éireann for the additional expense and risk incurred in the management of the scheme.
Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Can Ms Keane clarify what her position within the company is?
Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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What is the amount of the risk reserve?
Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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What would it have been last year? Perhaps Ms Keane can give me a profile of it over the last five years.
Ms Andrea Keane:
The figure has ranged from €4 million to €9 million over the last period. The fluctuations are linked to the capital investment programme within the scheme. We have two significant capital reinvestments for school transport at the moment. A significant IT system that costs approximately €2 million is being funded through this facility. We are also looking at purchasing school buses for the provision of direct school services.
Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Would I be right to say the risk reserve would not be used for purchasing buses or IT systems?
Ms Andrea Keane:
As I have said, the risk reserve is €6 million at the moment. Bus Éireann and the Department of Education and Skills feel it is prudent to have a level of risk reserve for charges that can come up. If there is a pressing need for capital investment, it might be considered that the risk reserve should be reduced to €4 million, for example, and an additional €2 million should be spent. We have agreed in our discussions with the Department of Education and Skills that there is a level below which it would not be prudent to allow the risk reserve to drop. Charges associated with the scheme, outside of capital investment, have arisen from time to time and have been applied from the risk reserve.
Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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It is not the case that an amortisation in Bus Éireann's accounts seeks to work it down over the lifetime of the equipment.
Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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The risk reserve is a little piggy bank that is available to Bus Éireann when it wishes to make a further investment in upgrading or augmenting its service or capital assets.
Ms Andrea Keane:
Exactly. It is important to reiterate for the committee that it is exclusively held for school transport purposes. As I have said, it is used to meet additional charges that can arise from time to time. There have been additional liabilities that have come out of it. If the risk reserve had not been available, those charges would have been met from the current account for school transport.
Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Ms Keane.
Paudie Coffey (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. Nolan and his colleagues for their presentation. I would like to set out my position on the issue about which Deputy Dooley has expressed concern. I understand his worries and frustrations as a Deputy and as a parliamentarian. I would like to reiterate what the Chairman has said. The committee has received strong legal advice to the effect that the documents presented to the committee should not be circulated. If we were to do so, we could prejudice matters that are before the courts at present. I do not think anything is preventing the Deputy from receiving the papers in question from Bus Éireann, which is a semi-State company, if he so wishes. He can do what he feels fit with them at that stage. That point needs to be made clear.
Mr. Nolan mentioned two policy documents - the good faith reporting statement, which is a CIE policy document, and the code of business ethics for employees. Could he tell me, without disclosing any specific details, how often these policies are reviewed and adopted by Bus Éireann management? Are employees fully aware of their obligations under these policies? If so, how are they made aware of them? Do they sign something to indicate that they understand and accept their obligations? Has Bus Éireann ever had any reason to discipline employees under the terms of these policy documents? Perhaps those questions can be answered without disclosing any specific details.
I note that the model used to deliver school transport relies largely on outsourcing. Approximately 90% of vehicles used under the school transport scheme are provided and operated by contractors. Does Bus Éireann run a risk management and analysis system to ensure compliance not only from a health and safety and vehicle fitness perspective, but also from a public procurement and financial probity perspective? Who is the person within the organisation who is responsible for ensuring full compliance? How often is that system audited and reported on to the executive?
Mr. Martin Nolan:
I will deal with the Deputy's questions in reverse. He asked about the systems that have led to 90% of services being tendered to private operators. From a health and safety perspective, we employ the UK Freight Transport Association to come across here every year. We give the association a list of all vehicles, including Bus Éireann vehicles. It chooses 7% of them at random to have their maintenance checked. If it is not happy with the maintenance, it checks the maintenance facilities of the relevant operator. We act on the reports that the association gives us. It depends on the standard of maintenance of the vehicles. We have been doing this check in between the annual DOE tests for the last seven or eight years.
From a public procurement and probity perspective, the CIE group's internal audit division conducts audits of all of Bus Éireann's systems under the guidance of the CIE board's audit committee. This division has complete autonomy to go anywhere in Bus Éireann group when it is auditing these systems. Our auditors, PricewaterhouseCoopers, come in on top of them to check the work of the internal audit people. PricewaterhouseCoopers would say that our systems have a strong level of internal control. The date on the latest good faith policy is 2013.
The code of ethics has been changed four times in recent years to include some new items. Last year the gift value was €120 but this has been reduced to €70. On the issue of discipline, I will pass on to our HR manager, Mr. Joe Kenny, to get the exact figure on it.
3:25 pm
Paudie Coffey (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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Who was the responsible person within the organisation? I presume there is a tier of responsible persons.
Mr. Martin Nolan:
There is a tier of responsible people, including myself as chief executive. Ms Margaret Hubbard, the procurement and materials manager, looks at the rules and policies that should be put in place. The regional managers review the work of the regional school transport managers and review the work of the chief clerks. We also have the internal audit department, the external audit department and two audit committees; our own audit committee and a CIE audit committee. There are plenty of people there.
Paudie Coffey (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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In that regard, I presume Bus Éireann has a fully documented and recorded system of all sign-offs in respect of compliance at the various tiers.
Paudie Coffey (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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In regard to the selection policy for bus operators, does Bus Éireann have methods and criteria that are fully documented? Does it have a recorded system of people who are selected and the criteria under which they are selected?
Mr. Gerry Gannon:
There is a pre-qualification questionnaire, PQQ, which is placed with the notice on the e-tenders website. The pre-qualification questionnaire is quite exhaustive in terms of the standards it outlines with which operators have to comply. For example, safety documentation such as vehicle roadworthiness, driver licences, tax clearance certificates, registration and make of vehicle, PSV licences and road transport operator licences must be presented. In order to qualify to the panel, an evaluation process is undertaken of the PQQ applications and contractors are either successful or unsuccessful. If successful they go onto the panel for tendering.
Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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I welcome the delegation from Bus Éireann. As Deputy Coffey has said, in reference to a previous speaker, nobody in this committee has a monopoly in terms of concern or in terms of allegations made or which are in the public arena. To suggest otherwise is disingenuous to the committee and to the member who made it. Discussions that are held in private should be private but, obviously, they are not. At no stage in private discussions did any one person monopolise their concerns in respect of allegations. I want that put on the record. I was not present at any meeting where only one person expressed concerns but I was present at a meeting where the majority expressed a view that the legal opinion given to the committee was the appropriate course of action.
In page 5 of his presentation, Mr. Nolan said that the cost of the Bus Éireann administered element of the school transport scheme to the Department of Education and Skills in 2008 was €162 million. He also said that more than €30 million has been saved by Bus Éireann. However, one of the contributors said the scheme did not make a profit. Given that Bus Éireann saved €30 million in conjunction with the Department of Education and Skills and made 2,000 service improvements, what was Bus Éireann doing prior to that time if it could not make those savings? We had to wait for the collapse of the economy before those savings were made. What was going on in the company up to then, given that it was operating the service at a cost of €30 million in excess of that at which it could operate post the collapse of the economy?
Further on in his presentation, Mr. Nolan said that in 1999 Bus Éireann experienced difficulty in attracting applications from private operators and "these had to be found through canvassing of existing contractors." What exactly does he mean by that? What processes were engaged in for canvassing of contractors? Did it take the form of telephoning people or going out and meeting people and, if so, were terms and conditions offered that may have been more amenable than those offered up to then? Were the terms and conditions offered better than those already in place and were enhancements given?
Mr. Martin Nolan:
In reference to those allegations, the reason I sent the report to this committee and the Committee of Public Accounts is that there was an allegation that I misled the Committee of Public Accounts. I did not do that. We gave a complete report to the three Ministers and the two committees to assuage those arguments. I invite my colleague to speak about the canvassing issue and how we delivered those vehicles during the noughties.
Mr. Gerry Gannon:
I will take the question on the savings and efficiencies first. Between 2008 and 2012 the cost of the school transport scheme to the Department of Education and Skills was reduced by €12.5 million off the bottom line from €162.2 million to €149.47 million which in itself is not insignificant. There was more than €30 million worth of savings in the same period. Those savings were achieved through the re-organisation of the network, the retendering of existing services and the renegotiation of rates. Another way in which the saving was achieved was that Bus Éireann provided a rebate to the Department of Education and Skills of €10.5 million. I can provide details of the €30 million.
The reason the €30 million does not reduce off the bottom line by itself is because of the additionality that is introduced to the school transport system every year in terms of sanctions for new services and improvements to services which amount to more than €6 million per year. In that five-year period, 2008 to 2012, it was more than €25 million worth of additionality. In simple terms, the re-organisation of services saves the money that paid for the additional sanctions but because the savings exceeded the cost of the sanctions, the actual cost of the school transport scheme was reduced, hence the bottom line reduction of €12.5 million.
Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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My question was why those savings had not been made earlier. Why did the economy have to collapse before the Department of Education and Skills insisted that savings were made? Why were these efficiencies not insisted on all the time?
Mr. Gerry Gannon:
The school transport scheme is evolving. During Celtic tiger years, there was a tremendous expansion of the scheme. For example, in the two years pre-2008, 2006 and 2007, the three for two seating ratio was abolished. In addition, seat belts were required on school transport scheme services. Therefore, there was considerable investment in the scheme. Effectively, an extra seat was required for every third child carried at that time so that each would have an adult seat. Expenditure was incurred to do that. In 2005 to 2007, the number of new services we introduced on the special needs side of the operation had multiplied tenfold compared to ten years previously. Between 1995 and 1998, an average of 30 new services were introduced every year. Between 2005 and 2008, an average of 300 services were introduced every year, the vast majority being for special needs. While the scheme was expanding at that massive rate the scope to make the savings, which we have made subsequently, was not available then.
Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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What is the cost of the service now?
Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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What was the cost for 2012?
3:35 pm
Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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When one takes the contribution of the families out of the equation is one dealing with €137 million?
Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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Is it €151 million?
Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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Even though Bus Éireann has increased the services over the five-year period by €25 million a year-----
Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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Have the €30 million savings achieved in 2008 been wiped away?
Mr. Gerry Gannon:
Has the saving been wiped away? The saving is that the bottom line cost of the school transport scheme was reduced. In effect, the saving has paid for the sanctions. In other words, if the saving was not made and if the re-organisation of services was not achieved to the efficiency levels we reached, that €25 million would have added to the bottom line of the school transport scheme and one could be looking at a higher cost now.
Mr. Martin Nolan:
It is a demand-led service. The Department sanctions it and we run it. In addition, in budget 2010 the Government decided that there would be a number of policy changes, some of which we introduced ourselves, and there was a target in those changes - different charges for schoolchildren and closed school rules. The target for savings on those areas alone was approximately €17 million and we have delivered them as part of the €30 million as well.
Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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The point I am trying to make is that in the statement it was said that the cost in 2008 was €162 million and that more than €30 million had been saved by Bus Éireann working in conjunction with the Department of Education and Skills. It seems to me that the cost should be €132 million.
Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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The €25 million has been passed on to the Department and the parents.
Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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Essentially, the point I make is that there is no saving.
Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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It has taken me a long time to get a response. The Department of Education and Skills gave Bus Éireann its instructions in terms of the operation of the school bus service. Bus Éireann said it saved €30 million but it has not saved anything.
Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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Where are they if the parents have taken up the slack?
Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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The statement is very clear. The cost of the service was €162 million in 2008 and Bus Éireann said more than €30 million has been saved. It was also said that the cost today is €149.7 million and there is a contribution by parents bringing the total cost to almost €160 million.
Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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There is no saving.
Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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Would Mr. Nolan like to amend the statement to say that there is no saving of €30 million and that the cost of running the service today is the same as it was in 2008?
Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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I did not ask Mr. Nolan that. I asked him how much the service costs today. Mr. Nolan said the cost in 2008 was €162 million with more than €30 million saved.
Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Nolan did not say that. He said that more than €30 million has been saved by Bus Éireann working in conjunction with the Department of Education and Skills from this figure and largely re-invested in 750 new services. My point is there is no saving. Why does Mr. Nolan not say that Bus Éireann has saved nothing between 2008 and 2014?
Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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How much does the service cost today?
Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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How much did the service cost in 2008?
Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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Is there a difference in those figures?
Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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So there is no saving.
Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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In fairness-----
Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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In fairness, the statement is a bit misleading because it says that more than €30 million has been saved but the Department is still paying the same amount of money with an enhancement from the parents. That is what should have been said. Could Mr. Nolan elaborate on the canvassing work?
Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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With respect to Mr. Nolan, the Department did not give the statement; Bus Éireann gave it to the committee.
Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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Perhaps it should be amended to reflect the actual costs of running the service.
Mr. Gerry Gannon:
In respect of the canvassing aspect, in 1999 a total of 42 applications were received. That is fewer than four per local office. Nationally we have 11 local offices so that is an entirely inadequate figure in order to keep services running. One must remember as well that of the 42 applications more than half of the vehicles that were put forward were not suitable in terms of documentation so we could not use them. Only 16 of the vehicles could be used and all 16 were used.
To meet the demand in 1999 we needed 69 more vehicles and they had to be found through referrals and canvassing. That means referrals through people working in the industry approaching operators directly and asking them whether they had additional vehicles which they could put forward for school transport purposes. That does not mean they would be accepted at a lower standard than usual. We cannot, for example, rule out 26 vehicles in terms of suitability and then replace them with 26 vehicles of a lower standard. That simply is not the case. We had to go to the industry to find the additional vehicles that met our standards.
Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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When Bus Éireann went to the industry did it offer preferential terms and conditions? Were better terms offered to those people at the time?
Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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Could I go back again?
John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Four other members are waiting to contribute.
Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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I wish to return to one point about the figure of €162 million. Mr. Gannon said the €30 million was largely invested in 750 new services. Was there a change in the number of services between 2008 and the saving being achieved? What was the number of services at the start of the period and the end of the period? How many services were there at the start when the cost was €162 million and how many services are there now?
Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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The reason I ask is that the witnesses put a lot of weight on the fact that they had re-invested in 750 new services so I am anxious to know whether services were cut prior to that. I wish to know how many services there were at the start and how many services there are now.
Mr. Gerry Gannon:
I have some information which might be useful for illustration purposes and to explain the bottom line and how we get to it. The total number of contractors’ fleet that we had at the start of 2009 was 3,381 vehicles. The additional services sanctioned by the Department of Education and Skills up to September 2009 amounted to 89 vehicles. That is a potential new vehicle requirement of 3,470 vehicles for the start of the school year. One must bear in mind the re-organisation of services and the efficiencies. This is where we talk about network planning expertise being essential. It has been identified in a number of previous independent examinations, including the value for money report, how essential it is. The value of it is that the 3,470 potential new vehicle requirement was reduced because we were able to take 148 vehicles out of the service through using our transport planning expertise. In autumn when the school year started we needed 3,322 contractors’ vehicles. In other words, despite 89 new services being needed we achieved it by reducing the total number of vehicles by 59.
John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Could the witnesses supply the full detail to the committee?
Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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A lot of weight has been put on the saving but we do not know how many services we started with and how many we finished with.
John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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That is what I have sought from the witnesses. Four members are waiting to speak. I will call Deputy Phelan and Deputy McEntee first and then I will call Deputy Griffin and Senator Brennan.
Ann Phelan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Labour)
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The questions I wish to ask are about the tendering process. All anyone ever wants in a process is to be treated fairly and to believe that the playing pitch is as level for them as it is for their next-door neighbour. Nobody likes dealing with a system where they believe there is a bias - real or perceived.
Under Bus Éireann's tendering process, does it have an appeals mechanism? If not, do the witnesses perceive merit in having an appeals mechanism? In addition, when a contract is awarded under the company's tendering process, does it have any obligation to follow up with the person who has been awarded that contract to ensure he or she is fully in compliance with employment law? Does Bus Éireann have an anti-corruption policy? If so, what is the architecture of that policy and who are the main personnel who would deal with it?
What are Bus Éireann's investment plans for school transport for the future? In common with other members present, I represent a rural constituency and every June and July, we must deal with severe problems arising for people who find themselves without a school transport ticket and who are trying to get to areas to which they traditionally have gone. While I do not have it to hand at present, I refer to the 3 km rule or whatever it is and members have not been able to deal with that in any satisfactory way. We meet people with medical cards who cry to me that they cannot afford to pay for the tickets. While Mr. Nolan stated the company had €30 million in savings, can any of it be used to come up with a satisfactory solution to these pockets of which there are not many? Some other Deputies also have experienced this issue, which I have encountered in a number of areas. If a novel way could be found to try to solve that issue, I would be grateful. However, the witnesses should deal with the other questions.
3:45 pm
Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses for their attendance. As for the legal advice, I wish to associate myself with the comments by Deputies Coffey and O'Donovan. As Deputy Ann Phelan has touched on some of the questions I had wished to ask, I will turn briefly to the tendering process. Companies that have been going through this process for years and which have had contracts for years may suddenly find themselves failing or losing out. On companies that may be coming in with considerably lower bids in respect of prices and so on, I believe I have raised the question previously both as to whether there is an appeals process and as to whether there is a mechanism by which complaints can be made. If so, is this on the record and is there transparency? Does Bus Éireann have a figure as to how many people in the past actually have made complaints, whether they were successful and so on? On the 3 km rule, is there any discretion in this regard? I have encountered cases in which two siblings might be on the bus but the third sibling has not been allowed to go on the bus. As the witnesses can understand, for a parent it obviously is not logical, does not work and can be highly distressing and upsetting, especially for the third child who is told he or she cannot take this school transport.
I am curious about the age of the buses. I left school in 2004 and can remember friends who used to arrive on a bus that was manufactured in 1979. It was colder inside the bus then it was outside. Is there a cut-off age and is there a standard for the buses in this regard? Following on from that, I refer to the bus crash in Kentstown, which is in my constituency. An inquiry was conducted by Bus Éireann into what happened and how the company conducts school transport. As far as I am aware, the findings have not been published. If this is the case, does the company intend to publish the findings or where can they be found?
John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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We will take those questions from Deputies Ann Phelan and McEntee and then we will wind up with the remaining two members.
Mr. Martin Nolan:
I will pass the school-related questions on to my colleague and Ms Andrea Keane will cover some of the corruption issues. On the overall tendering process, all unsuccessful tenderers are given a detailed breakdown of how and why they did not achieve the tender. This is done under the different criteria in respect of where the successful tenderer was and where they were. As for the appeals process, the regional schools transport manager will hear appeals and they obviously have natural appeals as well. As it is a contracted issue, they may appeal back to the legal end of the house on that.
The age of vehicles is 20 years and we do not go beyond that. The key point about such vehicles is of course that they are well maintained. However, because of public perception and so on, we like to reduce the age. We have just gone out for the first time in a few years to buy a number of vehicles. We also have new public service vehicles on the way and the older ones will be cascaded into schools. Such vehicles will be approximately eight or nine years old.
Mr. Gerry Gannon:
I will respond to some of the queries that related to the policy of the school transport scheme. One of the questions from Deputy McEntee was about discretion. I am taking the questions as I have written them and mean no disrespect. The rules on discretion changed as a result of a budget announcement in 2011. While I can appreciate it is difficult for families to understand it, one reason that one child in a family may not be eligible while the other two could still be eligible is because there is a new set of rules and the new criteria apply to the younger child. The children who already are in the system, if they were eligible, will remain eligible until they leave school. The difference regarding eligibility where the medical card is concerned - this relates to Deputy Ann Phelan's question - is that only eligible children are entitled to the medical card waiver under the school transport scheme. We do not have any discretion on that. We do not have discretion with regard to the manner in which we apply the criteria of the school transport scheme. One of our key responsibilities is to apply it impartially in a uniform fashion on a national basis. Consequently, I am sorry but the answer to that question is "No". I believe I have answered the questions.
Ms Andrea Keane:
To respond briefly to the Deputy, the company has two separate policies. We have a code of business ethics for employees and since 2013, we also have a good faith reporting policy. Both policies are published on our website. In respect of compliance with regard to good faith reporting, the chief executive is required to make an annual report to the board on any issues that have arisen under the good faith reporting requirements and with regard to our code of business ethics. It is reviewed within the company by senior management, including human resources, and is subject to audit by the internal audit department. It last conducted an audit on compliance with this policy in 2013.
Ann Phelan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Labour)
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On the obligation to follow up, if someone receives a tender from Bus Éireann and employs someone else, is there an obligation on the company to follow up that the individual in question is in compliance with employment law?
Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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I asked a question about the bus crash in Kentstown.
Mr. Martin Nolan:
We are coming to the ninth anniversary of the tragic incident at Kentstown. There was a court case regarding it in which the company pleaded guilty to a number of charges. The judgment then came through and we always have stayed in the community and did what we needed to do. The report is in draft format and there are no intentions at this point to publish it. I do not see what it would do to further-----
Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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Have there been calls for the company to publish it?
John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I call on Deputy Griffin, to be followed by Senator Brennan.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry South, Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses for their attendance. At the outset, I welcome the improvements in safety that have occurred in recent years. I certainly remember being on a 54 seater school bus in the mid-1990s on which there were 90 children on one occasion. It was more like the Tokyo underground than a rural school bus but, thankfully, we have come a long way since then. I wish to ask a couple of questions about the nitty-gritty of the tendering process. How are tenders actually received and opened? What does Bus Éireann do to ensure that any sensitive information is protected, is not leaked and that no one who should not know about it does not know about it? What oversight exists in respect of the tendering process?
Does Bus Éireann accept tenders from operators that clearly are operating below cost? Does Bus Éireann have concerns in cases where operators are tendering well below cost?
Is Bus Éireann aware of the difficulties that causes for the general provision of services?
3:55 pm
Terry Brennan (Fine Gael)
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All of the questions that I was going to ask have been asked. However, I want to acknowledge the support and advice given to us by Ms Egan from the Department.
On the question of tendering, are unsuccessful tenders advised and does the issue of collusive tendering ever arise in the school transport scheme? Are there private contractors? How often would they change or does Bus Éireann tend to use the same private contractors for the job ad libitum? There were other questions but they have already been asked.
It would be remiss of me not to acknowledge the good school transport system that is in existence in north County Louth where I come from. Also, having used the Expressway service from Dundalk to Dublin via the airport three weeks ago, I believe Bus Éireann ought to be complimented on that wonderful service, which departs at 6 o'clock in the morning and arrives at the airport at a quarter past seven. For those from the north end of the country, it is an excellent service to go somewhere and be collected promptly and left back to Dundalk. I acknowledge the service, with which I was impressed.
John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It is uplifting to end on a positive note.
Mr. Martin Nolan:
On collusion, although I will pass on to my school transport manager in a second, there have been three instances of cartel practice over the past 15 years or so that we have had to deal with. They led to some stoppages but we sorted them out.
Mr. Gannon will go into the matter of contractors' below-cost selling. We have minimum criteria that they have to meet. They have to have a vehicle of a certain age and certain standard, all the various tax clearance certificates, etc. Once one meets all of those standards, it is down to an award metrics which Mr. Gannon will explain.
Mr. Gerry Gannon:
With all due respect, I may jump from one question to another here. On the evaluation on the opening of the tenders, the suite of tender documents refers to the confidentiality of evaluation. After the official opening of tenders, no information relating to the examination, clarification, evaluation and comparison of tenders and recommendations concerning the award of a contract shall be disclosed to tenders or other persons not officially concerned with such process.
On canvassing, interference and collusive tendering, the documents state that any attempt by a tenderer to influence the process of tender evaluation and contract award through canvassing or other means shall result in that tender being rejected. Tenderers are advised that the use of improper influence will also result in the tender being automatically disqualified. Examples of such improper influence would be collusion, price fixing, bid rotation or market division.
As to whether unsuccessful tenderers as advised, the answer to that question is, "Yes". Also, at pre-qualification questionnaire, PQQ, stage, if the applicant is not suitable, he or she is advised at that stage. He or she does not even make the panel of suitable operators from which the operators are asked to tender. If they fail at tender, they are written to and given the reasons.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry South, Fine Gael)
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How does Bus Éireann ensure that the information provided in tenders is kept confidential and is not make available to anybody else? I understand that is the policy, but how does Bus Éireann oversee that and ensure that there is no leaking of that information?
Mr. Gerry Gannon:
We have a controlled opening procedure, for instance, at the PQQ stage and at the tender stage. The controlled opening procedure at PQQ stage is mirrored at tender stage and I will not repeat it. What happens is the PQQ or the tenders are received and they are held securely until after the closing date by which I mean they are locked away.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry South, Fine Gael)
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Are these a print-off or an electronic version?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry South, Fine Gael)
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I began the question by stating it was about the nitty-gritty of the system. When it comes in, who sees it? Are they printed off and hard copies stored? Could they go through the detail? For beginners, could I get it openly so that we know exactly what happens?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry South, Fine Gael)
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Who sees those when they come in?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry South, Fine Gael)
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Does anyone else oversee that? Is there any oversight other than those two staff in those local offices?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry South, Fine Gael)
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Without casting any aspersions on anyone, is there possibly a lack of oversight?
Mr. Martin Nolan:
We are also subject to audit. The documentation is there. If anybody has a problem with it, he or she can always appeal or write in to us. With whistleblowing, they can go to internal audit directly. All of that documentation is subject to audit and it would be fairly clear whether somebody has been discommoded or wrongfully picked.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry South, Fine Gael)
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With local authorities, for example, one has an elected member overseeing the opening of tenders to ensure that everything is all right. Is there any such system?
Mr. Martin Nolan:
What will happen in this system is that there is a regional school transport manager and then a chief clerk in charge of each of the offices. The regional school transport manager goes to the chief clerk and they, together, will open the envelops at the same time. From our point of view, that provides the oversight.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry South, Fine Gael)
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Is there an independent person overseeing this? Other than those two staff, is there anyone else?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry South, Fine Gael)
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Is that something Bus Éireann could look at - maybe putting more stringent oversight policies in place?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry South, Fine Gael)
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I merely ask is the Bus Éireann system a foolproof one? Is it something that Bus Éireann would review?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry South, Fine Gael)
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When those tenders are locked away, who has access to that information?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry South, Fine Gael)
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Are they physically locked away in a cabinet?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry South, Fine Gael)
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Does anyone else, other than those two individuals, have access to the key to get into that cabinet? Are they are locked away or put away?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry South, Fine Gael)
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Are the only two staff with access those two individuals referred to?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry South, Fine Gael)
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On receipt, are the hard copies scanned or kept electronically in any place or at any stage in the process?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry South, Fine Gael)
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At all, ever?
Mr. Martin Nolan:
Bus Éireann remains committed to providing the best school transport system in the most efficient and economic manner. The management of the schools bus network to deliver 40 million child journeys each year is co-ordinated and integrated where possible with the provision of local transport services. This is done with both public and privately-owned transport so as to make the best use of local resources and to minimise costs. I thank the committee for hearing us today.
John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. Nolan, Ms Andrea Keane, Mr. Gerry Gannon, Mr. Joe Kenny, Mr. Colm Costello and Ms Margaret Hubbard for their attendance, explaining in detail and answering the questions. I apologise for the late start but the we had to go through a process where we had to get advice in advance. I hope that everyone understands that I wanted to give everyone their legitimate right within the remit of the committee. I want to put that, finally, on the public record.
As there is no other business, the joint committee is adjourned until 12 noon tomorrow when we will meet EU Commission official, Mr. Eric Mamer, to discuss EU energy policy.