Andrew Doyle (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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We will recommence our deliberations. This part of the meeting will involve a discussion with Coillte on maximising the usage and potential of land. I welcome Mr. Gerry Britchfield, acting chief executive, Mr. Gerry Egan, group director of strategy and corporate affairs, Mr. Gerard Murphy, managing director of Coillte Forest, and Mr. Mark Foley, managing director of Coillte Enterprise. As they are probably aware, the committee has commenced a series of meetings with key stakeholders and experts in order that they might assist it in examining the current policy relating to and options available in respect of land use and to consider how best to maximise land use and the potential of land across Ireland. We look forward to hearing from our guests about our forestry and its role in reducing the country's carbon footprint.

Before we commence, I wish to inform the witnesses that they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. If, however, they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to do so, they will be entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against a Member of either House, a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I invite Mr. Britchfield to make his opening statement.

Mr. Gerry Britchfield:

I thank the Chairman and members for giving us the opportunity to make a presentation to the committee. Coillte is the largest landowner in Ireland, with an estate extending to some 445,000 ha or 7% of the land area of the country. We have a presence in every county and we employ over 900 people directly. Our log supply is the lifeblood of the Irish forest products sector, which supports 12,000 jobs mainly in rural locations. We export our forest products to over 32 countries worldwide. We are at the heart of Ireland's drive to deliver 40% of electricity generation from renewable energy sources by 2020. We provide valuable public good benefits to the people of Ireland, ranging from recreational facilities to landscape protection to nature conservation.

Our understanding is that the committee is considering how to optimise the potential of Ireland's land, particularly in the context of achieving the targets set out in Food Harvest 2020. The overall vision relating to this is to act smart, think green and achieve growth. One of the key challenges set by Food Harvest 2020 is how to achieve the targets envisaged in respect of growth - for example, an increase in the value of primary agricultural output of €1.5 billion by 2020 - while also delivering on Ireland's environmental commitments, such as a reduction in our greenhouse gas emissions. We are of the view that Coillte's land bank can play an important role in squaring this circle.

Our natural resource assets and skillsets can be deployed to support the objectives of Government with regard to Food Harvest 2020 and to underpin other key policy objectives in a number of ways. In the first instance, our forest asset can deliver a range of benefits for Ireland including increased carbon sequestration from the trees we grow; low-carbon energy-efficient building products from a vibrant sawmill and panel products sector; and by enabling the development of a highly efficient supply chain from forest plants to harvesting to routes to market in order to encourage more afforestation by landowners. In addition, our land is ideally placed to support the roll-out of the Government's renewable energy agenda, which, in itself, will contribute strongly to lowering our greenhouse gas emissions by 2020. Coillte has substantial wind energy potential and a pipeline capable of producing 500 MW will be constructed in the envisaged timeframe. We will facilitate the build-out, by third party developers, of significant additional wind energy capacity in the coming years through the provision of lands, rights of way over access routes or way-leaves. We are also working to enable the growth of a high-efficiency bioenergy sector in Ireland. To this end, we recently made a strong case to the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources in respect of the introduction of a renewable heat incentive.

I will now hand over to Mr. Gerard Murphy, the managing director of our forest business, who will expand on the benefits which our forest asset can deliver for Ireland. Mr. Mark Foley, managing director of our enterprise business, will then provide more detail on the renewable energy benefits we can contribute.

Mr. Gerard Murphy:

I wish to take the committee through the activities of the forest division of Coillte and its role in helping to achieve the objectives relating to Food Harvest 2020, particularly in respect of climate adaptation, carbon mitigation measures and biodiversity. The forest division is responsible for the management, protection and stewardship of the State's forests, a resource which is very important in helping to mitigate the effects of climate change. This assertion is underpinned by a national forest inventory statistic which shows that the Coillte estate has a stock of over 200 million tonnes of carbon locked in its forests and soils. In the context of the 445,000 ha it manages, the division carries out a wide range of activities from planting, tending and protecting the company's crops to forest road building, the harvesting and sale of roundwood and providing public goods.

I have included a number of statistics in slide No. 4 to illustrate the scale of our operations and the importance of what we do in supporting the wider forest industry and rural development. The lands for which Coillte is responsible represent over 7% of Ireland's landmass and the company sells almost 2.5 million cum of roundwood to a diverse range of industrial users. This accounts for approximately 80% of the total roundwood available in the market. Each year we plant approximately 6,000 ha of forests with 15 million trees. We maintain 9,500 km of forest roads and trails, building a further 100 km of new roads each year. In total, we reinvest over €30 million into our forests every year in the context of replanting and tending trees and building roads. Some 18 million recreational visits are made to our forests annually. A total of 20% of our estate is managed primarily for the purposes of biodiversity. Our sustainability credentials are certified by the international and independent Forest Stewardship Council, FSC, which is very important in the context of accessing international markets for the industry's finished products. This year, we hope to be endorsed by the programme for endorsement for forest certification, the PEFC standard, and to have our environmental management systems certified to ISO 14000 standard.

Coillte has a presence in every county in Ireland and is a very important contributor to rural development. The forest division alone employs over 450 staff and engages approximately 460 contractors who, in turn, employ over 1,300 people. The division is organised into regional units - business area units, BAUs - in order that decision making is decentralised as much as possible. We developed a new strategy for the division last year and our ambition is to become recognised internationally as a leading sustainable and commercially successful organisation - delivering roundwood and public goods in a manner that will be highly valued by the shareholder, our customers and our stakeholders - in the next five years. There are five central themes to our strategy and these are very closely aligned to the Food Harvest 2020 themes of acting smart, thinking green and achieving growth. These themes include being more efficient, investing in our people and systems and ensuring we are competitive on a sustainable basis. We are aiming to be smarter in what we do in the context of improving the performance of our estate, mainly through optimising the use of our estate through a flexible set of silvicultural regimes and plant material, improving the productivity of our estate and aligning all our compliance and certification requirements. We provide significant public goods to society. Our strategy is to seek recognition for these goods and thereby ensure that the value of the forest estate will be recognised in a more substantial manner.

We want to unlock the considerable value of the private forest estate through supporting the mobilisation of the private supply which is due to become available during the next ten years. I will elaborate on this strategy, particularly in terms of how it supports and assists in the development of the carbon stock in our estate.

The mitigation benefits of forests as a carbon resource and a sink for carbon sequestration is well documented but also forests can provide a role in offsetting the negative impacts of climate change such as reducing flood risks. We have seen that in the recent months with the level of flooding that has occurred here. I have identified four areas of Coillte forests that can support the State's policy on carbon mitigation and sequestration. It is well documented that establishing forests increases the capacity of carbon sequestration. For example, for every hectare planted three to 15 tonnes of CO2 per annum is removed from the atmosphere but, obviously, that depends on the soil, the species and the age of the crop. We plant 5,500 to 6,000 hectares annually under our reforestation programme which ensures that the carbon pools locked in our estate are maintained and enhanced. We also support the national afforestation programme, which is driven through incentive schemes, to encourage farmers to plant their lands by providing specialist management services, markets for their thinnings, advice and access to our road network. The latest wind blow is an example of where we have worked very closely with local forest landowners to deal with the aftermath of the storm. We also have more than 700 farm partnerships in managing approximately 12,000 hectares of forests.

Another area that is very important in increasing carbon sequestration, especially as land becomes more difficult to source for forestry, is to increase the productivity of the existing forest estate. This can be achieved by utilising the right species and using properly adapted forest reproductive material. We have found that improved material of the right provenance can improve growth productivity of the estate by 20%. There is a direct correlation between forest productivity and increased carbon sequestration. Coillte has an advanced tree improvement programme for our major species that have been developed over 25 years as well as maintaining a range of seed orchards, the seeds of which are available for the wider industry. I believe there is significant uplift potential in the productivity of both the private and public estate through the proper use of the right forest reproductive material. Another way of increasing forests productivity, as well as the benefits of replacing fossil fuels, is to investigate the possibility of using fast growing forest energy crops. We have hundreds of hectares of trials in eucalyptus and other species which produce significant yields of wood in short rotations. We are investigating whether they are adaptable to Irish conditions.

To ensure that forests capture carbon on a net basis, it is also crucial that there are sustainable supply chains developed across the industry. Having a strong chain of custody in independent schemes like SFC or PFC gives the confidence that forests are being managed on a sustainable basis. Over the last ten years we have also supported the development of a viable contractor base in harvesting and haulage and work to ensure that proper training regimes are in place, especially in health and safety. Training in harvesting and haulage will remain a key challenge for the sector over the next number of years. We are also developing supply chains for energy wood that replaces fossil fuels and my colleague, Mr. Mark Foley, will expand on this later.

The final pillar of carbon mitigation is in the use of low carbon building products. Wood after harvesting continues to lock in carbon, as is the case with sawn wood produced by our sawmill customers or panel boards produced by our Coillte panel board mills. The increasing demand for energy efficient construction is driven by carbon mitigation measures such as the EU directive on energy performance in buildings. We believe concepts such as zero carbon construction in reducing carbon emissions are driving significant change in the market. This concept seeks to have a yearly net carbon footprint of zero and is achieved, first, by reducing the energy consumption needed in buildings and, second, utilising materials with low carbon emissions related to the manufacturing process. The OSB and MDF products that we produce contribute very favourably to this type of construction due to their use in highly thermal efficient off-site construction systems and through the carbon locked in the material.

I would like to conclude by showing how the forest estate further contributes to the "thinking green" theme of Food Harvest 2020 in the area of public goods. While more than 25% of our forest estate has statutory environmental designations, nearly 40% of our estate is managed with some form of environmental designation. We manage and protect these areas using an environmental management system which we proactively develop and improve. However, our strategy is to be even more proactive and to create a greater awareness of the type of public goods we provide and to seek recognition for them. In association with the Heritage Council, we commissioned an independent study to quantify the economic value of biodiversity, cultural heritage and landscape protection. The study, which has just been published, calculated that the value of these public goods was more than €500 million. A previous study on forest recreation showed a direct value contribution of €97 million and a further €270 million generated to the local community in terms of visits to the forests.

Our policy is to work with local communities and local authorities in developing these facilities. A number of significant examples in this area on which we have worked include the Ballyhoura Mountain trial bikes, Lough Key forest park, the Dublin Mountains Partnership, Wild Nephin and the Cavan Burren Park. Another good example of biodiversity work, which has strong links into the area of carbon sequestration, is the work we have been doing in restoring bogs under an EU Life funded project. More than 5,000 hectares are being restored back to their original state of bogs. We believe there is a need to develop innovative means of recognising the value of these initiatives in order to use the potential of these public goods to further drive rural development.

In conclusion, we believe that forestry and Coillte's key role in the sector provide important contributions to the national agenda on climate adaptation. We continue to be committed to playing a constructive part in national policy. I will hand over to Mr. Mark Foley who will take the members through other contributions we make in reducing our carbon footprint, particularly in the area of renewable energy.

Mr. Mark Foley:

I am responsible for the division of Coillte which seeks to create additional value in terms of the land under our management where forestry is not the primary use. This is primarily in areas such as wind energy, biomass, providing land for infrastructure projects and other land uses as well as telecommunications mast sites. Slide 10 shows a map of Ireland and members will note that Coillte's 6,000 plus discrete properties reach far and wide into the heart of rural Ireland. Attributes such as location, local geography, topography and elevation combine to make Coillte's land assets highly desirable for a wide range of end applications.

Turning to renewable energy, particularly wind energy, it is not widely known that Coillte has been a key player in the development of Ireland's renewable ambition since the pioneers of this vibrant sector unfolded a new vision for sustainable green energy in Ireland as far back as 20 years ago. Before I talk about Coillte's portfolio and our five-year strategy, I will remind members why renewables are so important to Ireland, a peripheral country on the western tip of Europe with very limited natural resources. There are four reasons renewables are important. First, the 2009 renewables directive from the EU sets out a very clear and unambiguous ambition for Europe to achieve legally binding targets for 2020 and that European ambition cascades into very specific targets for individual countries including Ireland. We have three targets. Our targets for electricity from renewable sources is 40%, the target for heat is 12% and the target for transport is 10%. I will deal with the first two in my presentation, which are relevant to Coillte.

The second reason renewables are important is our excessive dependence on imported fossil fuels which today still exceeds 90% of all energy needs. I do not need to spell out to the committee what this means in terms of the risk to Ireland from both the perspective of security of supply and that of the cost of energy. The third reason is climate change. The members no doubt will have read that the International Panel on Climate Change reported again this week with a very clear statement that "It is extremely likely that human influence has been the dominant cause of the observed warming of the planet since the mid-20th century". Therefore, arguably, the preservation of our planet and the stewardship of our natural resources may very well be the greatest issue facing mankind in the 21st century. The final reason renewable energy is important is economics. The Redpoint study for IWEA and, more recently, the Poyry study, The Value of Wind Energy to Ireland, which was produced within the last two weeks, confirms that the increased deployment of wind energy does two things - it reduces the wholesale cost of electricity and, crucially, it stimulates employment.

I will move on to slide 12. I have included on this slide a screen shot from EirGrid's website at 5 p.m. on Wednesday, 26 March. Members will see that renewables accounted for 20.6% of all energy generated in the preceding 24 hours. That is a very good story for Ireland. Coillte has enabled 40% of current installed generation capacity, 2,000 MW of renewables, which blows on the grid today. The way we have done that is by selling upland sites to wind farm developers to facilitate the construction of new generating plant. We facilitated access to sites for construction and maintenance through the provision of rights of way across our lands. We have provided way-leaves for developers and we have supported the ESB, as the distribution system operator, and EirGrid to connect wind farms and build grid capacity. We have completed in excess of 80 transactions in this sector in the past 15 years and the revenue from this activity has enabled Coillte to fund the development phase of our own portfolio of projects.

One could ask what is Coillte’s role as we look to Ireland’s ambition to 2020 and beyond. First, we intend to capture more of the value in this particular sector for our shareholder by developing and operating some of our own projects, including partnerships with strong companies such as the ESB and SSE plc, formerly Scottish and Southern Energy plc. Coillte’s development portfolio comprises nine projects across seven counties in Ireland with the potential to generate more than 500 MW of operating capacity. Developing the projects will provide Coillte with secure REFIT-backed income streams for the next 15 years, helping to balance our income profile which is currently over-dependent on the construction sector.

The second point in terms of Coillte’s role is that we will continue to be one of the largest suppliers of land to the sector in the form of high-quality sites, rights of way and way-leaves enabling the industry to deliver the necessary electricity generation and grid capacity to allow Ireland to reach its 2020 targets. In that regard the next four years are absolutely vital as the REFIT incentive ceases at the end of 2017.

The third role for Coillte is that it is committed to open and transparent presentation of all facts and the best scientific data relating to its wind farm developments. We believe that early engagement with communities is absolutely essential. We believe that communities have a right to be heard and that an appropriate form of community benefit provision should be an integral part of all development projects.

Fourth, much has been spoken about the potential for a major export project whereby renewable energy from land-based wind farms in Ireland – the midlands in particular – would be deployed to provide green energy to the UK. We believe such a project merits deep consideration as it offers the potential for very significant investment in the indigenous economy with the attendant benefits in terms of job creation, economic activity and returns to the Exchequer. We are mindful of Government policy in respect of this particular area.

We believe that Ireland has a unique and exceptional opportunity to drive the renewables ambition to best-in-class levels giving real leadership in this space in Europe, maximising our potential for what is a free, natural resource and helping to mitigate CO2 emissions in other sectors of the economy. Today, we are talking about the potential benefits we could achieve in mitigating the effects of agriculture. Our provisional estimate suggests that 1,300 MW of newly installed wind generation capacity has the potential to mitigate a substantial proportion of the incremental emissions arising from the projected increase in the national herd between now and 2020 as part of the Food Harvest 2020 strategy. In that regard, we would welcome a new gate process which prioritises projects of scale and with low planning risk which are capable of being delivered in the medium term for the benefits of Ireland Inc.

I will move on to slide 14 and talk about biomass, in particular small diameter round wood which originates from Ireland’s forests and how it can contribute to the development of a vibrant and competitive manufacturing sector which generates its process heat requirements from a renewable feedstock rather than fossil fuels. In that regard, I will turn to the Government White Paper on energy policy which sets a target of 12% of thermal energy to come from renewable energy sources by 2020. The renewable heat sector, however, remains largely underdeveloped having grown very slowly to 5.2% in 2012, mainly as a result of wood waste utilised in the timber processing sector. Based on our current renewable electricity standard – heating, RES-H, trajectory, Ireland’s 2020 target will prove very difficult to achieve.

We believe that the introduction of a renewable heat incentive, RHI, is now essential. An RHI is a payment system for the generation of heat from renewable energy sources similar to the REFIT scheme for electricity. Generators of renewable heat are paid an agreed rate per kilowatt hour for hot water or steam which they generate and use themselves. The payment is for an agreed period and index linked. We believe such a scheme would be self-funding from an Exchequer perspective. The scheme was introduced in the UK in 2011 and has resulted in more than 611 MW of installed thermal capacity spread over nearly 3,000 accredited biomass installations. The source of the data is the Department of Energy & Climate Change, DECC, in the UK. The resulting benefits have been recycled through the UK national economy, stimulating economic activity, creating new jobs in engineering, design, installation and maintenance of biomass boilers themselves and through the associated operations such as logistics required to process and supply the local biomass.

There is now an imperative for Irish industry to adopt green energy solutions. However, project economics for large-scale renewable heat investments are proving very challenging. The relatively high costs of biomass boiler technology present a significant barrier. An RHI would offset the higher capital investment required, thereby improving project economics and encouraging the wider deployment of biomass renewable energy technologies. The benefits are very clear. First, a reduction in Ireland’s reliance on fossil fuels, a reduction in our greenhouse gas emissions and improving domestic fuel security. Second, improving and strengthening the competitiveness of Irish industry by minimising carbon taxes, replacing fuel costs and protecting against fossil fuel price volatility. Third, stimulating rural development and local job creation because it is a labour-intensive business and is very much rooted in the local community; providing a vital outlet for our growing private timber resource which will come to market in the next decade, giving it a market and a channel for growers of short-rotation energy crops; and reducing the future level of EU fines which may manifest in a situation where 2020 targets are not met. The final point relates to helping offset emissions in other sectors such as agriculture.

Coillte is underpinning the future energy supply of one of Ireland’s leading pharmaceutical plants. It is biomass in action in the real world. This is our flagship case study. Having secured a five-year biomass fuel supply agreement with Astellis Ireland Limited in Killorglin, County Kerry, we now supply the plant with all of its biomass renewable energy requirements and have done so for the past 28 months. We are successfully delivering both security of supply and lower energy costs to a world-class company. Astellis is one of the top 20 pharmaceutical companies in the world and employs 1,600 people globally. It operates a modern finishing facility in Kerry where it manufactures organ rejection drugs.

I will now turn to land generally and how Coillte has responded to the needs of customers and stakeholders alike through the deployment of our land asset for a wide range of end uses. Coillte has a long and proud tradition of adding value to our land asset, thus ensuring that additional value is captured for the shareholder over and above that which our forestry activities generate. Members will see from slide 19 that value creation is not just restricted to a Coillte context but of equal importance is the value we have brought to a range of sectors, customers and communities in the past decade. I will refer to some of those sectors. In terms of infrastructure, where our primary customer base has been State-owned local authorities, Coillte’s land asset has helped unlock solutions to key infrastructure provision including water schemes, the construction of new roads and motorways, county road upgrades and various utility schemes. Activity in this sector has been low since 2008 due to the recession. However, we are very pleased to see activity recommencing in both County Donegal and County Galway as key county roads are being prioritised for improvement in 2014.

In terms of development, our activities have extended across many aspects of the sector.

Irish Distillers' soon-to-be-commissioned state-of-the-art facility for the maturing of its branded Irish whiskey products near Midleton, County Cork, is a prime example. These lands for this signature development were sold by Coillte to Irish Distillers Limited in 2012 and we are proud to be associated with such a successful export brand for Ireland. Clearly, this market sector was buoyant pre-2009 but there are still occasional once-off transactions in this sector of which Irish Distillers Limited is a case in point. Since the onset of the recession, activity in aggregate in residential property has been limited. However, Coillte continues to support local communities in the form of land for sports and community facilities, such as the example illustrated in the slide on display, where Coillte provided allowance for Emo GAA club in County Laois.

Turning to agriculture, Coillte is mindful of Ireland's ambition, as articulated in the Food Harvest 2020 strategy, and we have seen significant activity and strong pricing in this sector in recent years. Our activities, in the main, relate to small to medium-scale transactions with farmers who seek to increase their holdings and thus increase their own output, typically by acquiring adjoining lands from Coillte. Last year, approximately 85% of all land transactions were in the agricultural sector. Coillte also plays an important role in connecting communities through the deployment of its land asset in support of telecommunications infrastructure across the length and breadth of Ireland. Coillte has a portfolio of 429 telecommunications towers on its lands, of which 116 are owned directly by the company. These new structures were built by Coillte to support 3 Ireland's requirements to deliver the national broadband scheme between 2009 and 2012. The remaining sites are leased in the main to the major telecommunications operators. I have no doubt but that Coillte's land assets have and will play a key role in realising Ireland's ambition to ensure that rural Ireland is not disadvantaged in securing high-performance broadband connectivity into the future. I will conclude by drawing members' attention to a recent innovation whereby Coillte joined forces with a company called OCMS Ireland to market Coillte's estate as a prime location for film and television ventures, both home-based and, in particular, the big budget US productions. This initiative was welcomed warmly by the Irish Film Board and the Department of Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht.

Mr. Gerry Britchfield:

To wrap up, having heard from my colleagues, I hope the joint committee will agree that Coillte is highly relevant to this debate and as the largest landowner in the State, has a significant role to play in support of the Government's objectives under Food Harvest 2020. By deploying our natural resources and our skills sets, we can deliver increased carbon sequestration from our forests, low-carbon energy-efficient building products, confidence for those landowners who wish to plant new land that an efficient supply chain is in place and renewable energy from wind and biomass, each of which will contribute to reducing Ireland's greenhouse gas emissions, thereby providing headroom for growth in agricultural output to meet the Government's Food Harvest 2020 targets. We have left members with a number of recommendations we believe could enhance further our ability to contribute, including a renewable heat incentive to encourage the growth of bioenergy, a clear signal of the Government's ambition for wind energy post-2020 and recognition for the provision of valuable public goods. We hope the joint committee has found our submission to be useful and we will be happy to take any questions members might have.

Tom Barry (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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I thank the representatives from Coillte for their highly informative presentation. I am delighted Coillte has put so much stock into its renewable incentive scheme, to which I will turn in a minute. If possible, it would be nice to have sight of Coillte's submission, which is a subject on which I have lobbied the Government extensively. While I believe the future lies there, it is not without its problems. Before returning to this issue, I have a few other questions. First, have the recent storms caused much damage to Coillte's crop? On a small albeit highly relevant housekeeping issue, I farm a lot of land close to Coillte properties and the quantities of wild deer and wild horses are becoming an absolute nightmare. They are damaging produce and are very difficult to remove. Has Coillte a policy to deal with this problem? I ask because with these creatures coming out onto the roads on a regular basis, it will eventually become a public hazard. Do the witnesses have any comment to make on the early plantations from 1995 onwards? Many people, including myself, planted forestry back then and quite simply, we planted for the grant. We did not have the skills of forestry management we should have had and, in hindsight, many of us are disappointed that we did not choose better in respect of tree type. Is there a mechanism whereby this could be considered in the future or does Coillte have ideas in this regard?

As for wind energy, I am not being negative here because I agree with the witnesses that it has great potential and there certainly are highly positive arguments for it. However, I have attended many anti-pylon, anti-transmission line or you-name-it meetings and as the witnesses are aware, certain people hold very strong feelings and have fears in this regard. They do not like wind turbines or transmission cables. Some people make the point that they do not want them, either underground or overground. In fairness to such people, they attend such meetings, where they make highly valid arguments. The problem I perceive is that people such as the representatives from Coillte do not attend such meetings, although they should. They should be giving the counterargument because the public is there to be informed and eventually people will make their own decision. I believe that when they become aggressive, people are losing the argument. I have been attacked physically at these meetings and it is just unbelievable. However, if Coillte intends to make this a major part of its policy, it must attend such meetings and must begin to disseminate the facts because eventually, that is what people will deal with.

On climate change, while everyone has heard about it, most people are not too bothered. They might see a television programme and so on but when getting on with their general daily lives, they do not worry about climate change. They worry about how to pay the bills. I hear people talking about production and recently, one heard that wheat production would fall and no one would have enough wheat for their bread and so on. The facts and the reality in Ireland is that last year, the price of one tonne of wheat fell by €80. That is what it meant to be a wheat farmer in Ireland. Cereal farmers were almost forced out of existence until the crisis in Ukraine arose and introduced instability, thereby leading to the price of wheat rising by €15 per tonne. It is terrible to believe that one's existence is based on some other country having a crisis. However, in respect of climate change, the world still is producing plenty of food and until I see differently and the price increases, that argument will still be there.

On infrastructure, many of the arguments put forward by those who oppose pylons are based on their perception that all these developments are for the benefit of developers collecting money. They argue they receive no benefits themselves from it. As for wood gasification, I bought a wood gasification boiler a few years ago. I apologise to the Chairman but I will be finished in a minute. Of the wood gasification boilers brought in through the SEAI scheme a number of years ago under which one received €2,000 in grant aid, only 30% of them still are in use. The rest of them have been scrapped and that scheme has been closed. The reason that scheme is finished is because there was complete exploitation of people buying boilers. No expertise was available to fit them properly or maintain them. I eventually bought a 75 kW boiler but initially was given a quoted price of €7,000 by one person. I was obliged to travel to Northern Ireland to get a person in the scheme to sell it to me for €3,000. This is unbelievable stuff and one cannot have differences in price of more than 100%. It strikes me that Coillte may need to get into the selling and servicing of such boilers to make them work. Moreover, on the introduction of the renewable heat incentive scheme in England, it was commercially-based at the outset but it then was discovered that 80% of total use was in the private sector. Coillte should become involved in getting it into people's homes.

As for Structural Funds from Europe at present, through the Common Agricultural Policy there is a push for small to medium-sized enterprises to become more carbon-friendly. I believe submissions in that direction would be highly positive.

One aspect I note - I have been involved in this in trying to get one of them off the ground - is that banking is a significant issue. The banks view anything to do with a renewable project, because one must co-fund the Structural Fund, as a problem. They are writing it off and they want full equity brought in. They do not value the equipment because it is novel technology. When one has this equity issue, there will have to be some way to credit-guarantee the investment by private companies. While it is a great idea - so is world peace - the question is how we get to that point. At present, for small businesses, it is difficult to do.

Andrew Doyle (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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In fairness, I am not quite sure what that last point has to do with Coillte.

Tom Barry (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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I am sorry. My point is-----

Andrew Doyle (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy should put it back into context here.

Tom Barry (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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It is the renewable heat incentive scheme. If they are promoting it, they will have to start joining up the thought process of how businesses achieve funding to put these in place.

Willie Penrose (Longford-Westmeath, Labour)
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I thank the representatives of Coillte for their presentation. No doubt the Coillte land will play an important role in land utilisation in the future.

I will focus upon it as somebody who has been involved in this and has not been aggressive, but has argued logically against the invasion of people's space by corporate entities, which I hope is not done in collusion with Coillte. I note Coillte has nine projects over seven counties in order to contribute to the 500 MW portfolio of renewable energy. Everything is grand, except when things are imposed upon communities with no community dividend or benefit.

More particularly, we all are aware of the additional guidelines, and that there are planning guidelines, and there are reviews of all of those taking place. That is grand to a point. Previously, the wind turbines that Coillte was looking at were approximately 54 m in height. Now they are stretching up to 180 m or 185 m, which is 600 ft., and these are to be 500 m from a home. There is fear about the impact and the diminution of value. All of this happens without any strategic environmental assessment and disregarding the Aarhus Convention. They just walk in as corporate bullies. I want to ensure that Coillte will not be part of this corporate bullying that occurs. It is corporate bullying. Many of my colleagues will not understand that, but when one lives in one of the five counties of the midlands, one will see it at play. There is sneakiness, with deals being signed overnight and behind people's backs, and neighbours being taken out of the system. There is family against family. This is what has resulted. Nobody seems to appreciate it. I have made the Minister acutely aware of this.

The important point is this. Coillte has lands way out in rural areas, well away from communities, where there is no problem. Bord na Móna has also. It is all right provided they comply with the planning standards that are brought in, but one must have respect for everything, including the habitats, the SPAs, the SACs, the NHAs, etc. An ordinary farmer must have respect for these, and I hope the corporations that are involved with wind energy have it too. Obviously, they can utilise the land for those projects and give way-leaves. How many of these have taken place to date? Have there been many of them in the midlands? That is important.

Is Coillte aware that we may not have any energy for export? Let us look after ourselves first. Coillte will be aware of what is happening in Britain. I hope it is not devising schemes in isolation. We all will be aware that in Britain they are moving to a different way. They are now looking again at nuclear energy. Surely, as a semi-state company, with the shareholder being the State in the person of the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Coillte will be aware of the importance of this situation in a context in which the British Government will not allow its rural landscape to be devastated and destroyed. The UK Minister for Energy and Climate Change, Mr. Davey, MP, has had to change course. The UK Prime Minister, Mr. Cameron, MP, has changed course. They are now looking at fracking and nuclear power. They now have all the other options. That is why this intergovernmental agreement has not taken place, and with God's help it will not take place. Let us look after what we have at home.

Wind energy is 25% to 30% efficient. When there is plenty of wind one gets nothing, and it needs a carbon-based, or fossil-fuel-based back-up to ensure continuity of supply. Is it as big as all this great profession of achievement that is being laid out for it? If it was not subsidised, would it be on the park at all? These are questions that I hope Coillte is examining and I hope it is taking cognisance of the wider community view. Otherwise, it is heading for trouble.

Deputy Barry is correct; we are there at meetings. Now I have a view. I do not believe in this wind energy concept. It was brought in in 2009 under the national renewable energy action plan. There was no strategic environment assessment. There was nothing on it. It was merely foisted on us by then Minister, Mr. Ryan, and those people. There is no use in Coillte heading down into the logjam. For example, in one county 6,000 residents took out their pens and wrote to Westmeath County Council objecting to it. That is considerable. In any county development plan, most here who were councillors will be aware that there would not be 20 submissions. In this case there were 6,000. They reflected the community view.

Coillte has a lot of land in Westmeath. I am aware of it because my late uncle worked in the company. It is right beside me. I do not have any difficulty as long as Coillte works with Bord na Móna - which, I note, has a role - and as long as it complies with the various standards. However, I want Coillte to know that this is not a done deal. There is a lot of work to be done with Coillte and all the others, and I do not anticipate that there will be any more chance of going around and imposing projects on people. They will have to bring the people with them and show the benefits. They should show that there is a community dividend in it at the end of the day and it is not all for corporations to make plenty of money and then sell off in a couple of years' time and leave us carrying the baby. We are already recovering from unfinished estates. We will have another type of ghost estate, consisting of lands blighted with turbines, across the country - including, if Coillte is not careful, some of its land. Who will pay the dividend then?

Michael McNamara (Clare, Labour)
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I am not entirely sure I agree with my colleague, Deputy Barry, that people are as indifferent to climate change as he claims. As a result of storms, there are many frightened people living on the western seaboard of Clare. Of course, it is difficult to pin down whether or not the storms are a result of climate change, but there is a considerable amount of scientific evidence to suggest that they are going to become more prevalent in the future.

I am interested in much of what the witnesses said, particularly in regard to carbon sequestration from forests. Do they have any statistics on how that compares to other carbon sequestration - for example, in hedgerows? Are certain species better at carbon sequestration? Are the native broadleaf trees better at carbon sequestration than Sitka spruce? There is the Coillte estate, there is whole forest estate and then there are hedgerows. What percentage of the total carbon sequestration is allotted to each of those sectors?

I presume the majority of trees in Ireland are in forests but I would not be as certain that the majority of native broadleaf trees are in forests. One might find a greater number of native broadleaf trees in hedgerows than in the forest estate. Do they have any statistics on that? I accept that much of what I have asked goes far beyond the strict mandate of Coillte, which is why they came here.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I have a few questions, one of which follows on from the questions on species mix and biodiversity. I would like to hear the delegates' views on the trade-off between heavily emphasising the production of Sitka spruce, because of its short-term commercial value, and developing forestry as an amenity and environmental asset. It is self-evident that broadleaf trees have a much greater amenity value for walkers and visitors. We are under-performing in this area given that Ireland used to be covered in oaks and other broadleafs. What will be done to expand in this area? This is very important at all sorts of levels. Native species are far more conducive to ensuring biodiversity than conifers, in addition to their having a tourism and amenity value. Sitka spruce is not particularly conducive to promoting biodiversity.

Very serious questions must be asked about the impact of the overemphasis on Sitka spruce on soil and water. It results in acidification. A doctor in Galway has suggested the outbreak of cryptosporidium-related illness in the Galway water system had something to do with the acidification of water and soil around Lough Corrib. I am no scientist and do not know whether this is correct. However, I have certainly heard plausible arguments that the acidification of water and soil is bad for fish, biodiversity, and soil quality. This has a knock-on effect in terms of flooding. Trees could be extremely helpful in holding riverbanks together. They prevent soil erosion and the more devastating effects of flooding. It has been suggested to me that native species are far better at achieving this. They have deeper roots and they are better for the soil because they enrich it. Sitka spruce, on the other hand, essentially impoverishes the soil and does not have the same qualities and strengths that native species would have along riverbanks, etc. What do the delegates have to say about that?

Following on from that is the question of agroforestry. This is linked to what Deputy Tom Barry was stating about farmers not having the expertise that is required. The advocates of agroforestry say that if one plants native species in and around pasture fields, it results in a great improvement because the trees serve as a windbreaker, enrich the soil and increase biodiversity in a way that is actually good for farming. Often, however, farmers do not see it that way. They see forests as taking up land that could be used more productively although agroforestry has the opposite effect. If one lines fields and areas that might not be best suited to cultivation with forests, it can have an enriching effect.

I drove to Donegal via the North. It was noticeable on driving through County Tyrone that, in the middle of farming land, there are big clumps of native species. They were on the uplands and in places where one might not be able to grow anything else, or places that might not be suited to more commercial farming practices. This phenomenon was much more evident than in County Donegal or elsewhere in the Republic, where I simply noticed field after field with very few trees. What are the delegates' views on this? What can Coillte do to encourage tree planting?

On the wider issue of afforestation, when Coillte is asked what its role could be in reaching the European average of 30%, which should be the absolute minimum in a country such as ours, it states there is nothing it can do because it cannot get the grant aid and does not have the land. That is crazy. If this is the case, we will never meet the targets. It is pretty self-evident that we are not meeting them. It will cost the State if we do not meet them in the longer term. How can we sort out this problem? The body that owns 50% of the forest estate in this country — the biggest owner of land — is saying it can contribute nothing to meeting what are absolutely vital targets for afforestation. Do we need to restructure Coillte? Must we remove the commercial aspect? I do not know what we have to do but it seems we have to do something if Coillte is to contribute to meeting our afforestation targets. If we do not, those targets will simply never be met.

Mr. Gerry Britchfield:

I shall answer the questions in the order they were asked, beginning with those of Deputy Barry. With regard to the RHI, we would be more than happy to provide the Deputy with a copy of the presentation we made to the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources. We believe there is a pretty compelling case for introducing an RHI to encourage bioenergy use in Ireland.

With regard to the storms and the damage to our estate, I will hand over to Mr. Gerard Murphy, who will say little about this.

Mr. Gerard Murphy:

We are still doing aerial reconnaissance and do not have an absolutely accurate estimate at this stage. We estimate that between 4,500 and 5,000 ha of forest have been damaged, mainly in the southern part of the country. We also estimate that there is probably 1,500 to 2,000 ha of private forest down, mainly in the western package. The material that came out was planted in 1995 and onwards. Our estimate of the total volume damaged in our estate is approximately 1 million cu. m, which is less than half of an annual cut. While the damage is very serious, we can manage it. We had storms before, in 1997 and 1998, and while they caused significant issues, it was a matter of trying to manage the supply to our customers while protecting potential future supply. Unfortunately, many of the crops damaged were close to the age of full production. We are working with the national task force, which is chaired by the Minister responsible for forestry. We are trying to obtain more accurate figures on the damage.

Mr. Gerry Britchfield:

The next question concerns our policy on wild deer. Once again, I will turn to Mr. Gerard Murphy.

Mr. Gerard Murphy:

I share the Deputy's concerns. There is no doubt that the deer population in certain parts of the country presents issues. We have heard this from many landowners. We have a policy on managing wild deer in our estate according to accepted principles of sustainable deer management. This means balancing the conservation, control and use of the species in a way that actually makes sense. A very important aspect is collaborating with other landowners because deer are very mobile. Unless we collaborate to deal with the issue, it will be very difficult to address. We have had some good success in County Wicklow, where collaborative approaches have worked. We certainly support the inter-agency deer policy group. I understand a national deer policy is due to be launched shortly, and we certainly would welcome it. A national view is required on how best to control deer populations. In every area of the country, we have deer-management plans. As part of our forest management plans, we have deer-management plans that require monitoring and, if necessary, culling.

Mr. Gerry Britchfield:

The third question concerned afforestation species selection. Does Mr. Murphy have any comment to make on the approach taken to that issue?

Mr. Gerard Murphy:

In some ways, it is a little difficult to answer that question because once they are established, there is not a lot one can do until the clear fell stage. It is about managing the crop as efficiently and productively as possible. Silviculture management becomes crucial in the case of these stands and ensuring they are thinned. There are various agencies, including Teagasc, that provide advice. We offer management services to landowners if they wish to get advice on how best to manage these areas. I agree that species mix is very important, including ensuring one has the right species. As regards climate change, it is extremely important to ensure one has resilient species.

Mr. Gerry Britchfield:

I will gather together some of the questions on wind energy, including those of Deputies Willie Penrose and Tom Barry. If I do not answer them fully, they can come back to me. As we are led by Government policy, our objective is to try to support the policy of our shareholder - the Government.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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It would be great if the banks did that, would it not?

Mr. Gerry Britchfield:

There are two elements. The targets to 2020 are related to domestic electricity generation. In the context of wind energy, we are trying to assist in meeting by 2020 the target of 40% of domestic electricity generation using renewables. We are completely focused on that objective. As regards how we approach it, we are rooted in communities and have to get on with them in order to be able to carry on our business. We put a lot of time and effort into trying to achieve this. When we are applying for planning permission for our wind farm sites, we are certainly on the ground and attend public meetings in communities in an endeavour to explain why and the benefits. We have a clear view that there has to be a community gain, with which we agreed. There is room for improvement concerning how much goes back to the community. We are working on trying to develop better ways of doing this in the future. In terms of our planning applications, we have been reasonably successful. One cannot satisfy everybody and we are not pretending that we can. There will be opponents of what we are proposing to do, but we make a real effort to engage with communities. We try to explain why we are doing it and there is a planning process whereby those who disagree with us can put their views on the table.

If exporting wind energy supplies is not Government policy, we will not pursue it. We are certainly seeking a lead from the Government in terms of whether this will get off the ground. If it is to have traction, the first thing that needs to happen is that the intergovernmental agreement will have to be sorted out. The Taoiseach and the British Prime Minister, Mr. Cameron, have agreed that there is a period of three months in which to try to come to a conclusion and a solution, if one can be obtained. If one cannot be obtained, we will not be exporting wind energy supplies. If it becomes Government policy and the Government has taken it on as a key objective, we will try to deploy our land to achieve that objective. We are a player because of the fact that we own 7% of the country's land area. We have lands adjacent to Bord na Móna's lands and are working closely with it to see, if this thing gets legs, whether we can join forces to put some impetus behind it. We work with people whom we regard as reputable players. We work closely with the ESB which is a partner on three of our projects. We also work closely with Scottish and Southern Airtricity on one project. We want to ensure what we do meets our standards of corporate governance, that we engage with people and are not seen - as Deputy Willie Penrose described it - as corporate bullies. We are certainly not in that space, as we understand people have concerns. These items are very large and can be up to 180 m in height. We realise these are issues and that we have to engage on them.

We regard wind energy as an important component of Ireland's energy mix. Going back to Government policy, security of supply is a key element. Studies back up the fact that the use of wind energy as part of the mix reduces the wholesale price of electricity. That is our position on the issue, of which we have recently completed a study.

Mr. Gerard Murphy:

We will be happy to make it available to any member of the committee who may request a copy.

Mr. Gerry Britchfield:

Other questions concerned wood gasification boilers. Our RHI policy is mostly focused on industrial heat generation. That is where Ireland can gain most in terms of traction and bioenergy. Many pharmaceutical and dairy companies have big requirements for industrial heat that are being satisfied by fossil fuels. We see a good position on renewable energy solutions for these industrial users. We are focused more on the industrial rather than the domestic end.

Deputy Michael McNamara asked about carbon sequestration in our forests and what different species could bring to the mix. I will ask Mr. Murphy to elaborate on that issue.

Mr. Gerard Murphy:

I am not a scientist and this area can be complex. National statistics have been produced in terms of the Kyoto Protocol for carbon stock in different areas. The question concerning species is a good one. The rate of carbon sequestration depends on factors such as soil type. For example, peatlands will hold more sequestered carbon. There are also factors such as age and species. For instance, in the early years faster growing species like spruce will sequester more carbon. However, because there is a longer rotation period broadleaves tend to capture it over a longer period. It depends on at what stage one measures the rates of carbon sequestration. I am not aware of statistics for hedgerows, but we need to look at all of the different sources in accounting for total carbon produced. They tend to look at forests - above and below the ground and what is captured in the soil. That is my understanding of how carbon is measured.

Mr. Gerry Britchfield:

Mr. Murphy had a figure which showed the overall position.

Mr. Gerard Murphy:

For our estate, it is 200 million tonnes of carbon, a lot of which is in the soil. Because a lot of our forests are located in peatlands which tend to sequester much more carbon it is quite interesting that the carbon is not only retained in the forest but also in the soil.

Mr. Gerry Britchfield:

I will move on to Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett's questions about biodiversity, how the species mix flows into landscape design, the tourism benefits and the impact of conifers on soil and water. I will ask Mr. Murphy to talk about our policies on species mix and some of the initiatives we are taking on life projects to try to improve the mix.

Mr. Gerard Murphy:

As regards our overall management, we strive to do things from a sustainability point of view. We are seeking all the time to balance the economic, social and environmental elements of the estate in a way that makes sense. In the last few years we have been certified independently by the FSC and the PFC to try to achieve that balance. We have a number of policies on our management of the estate.

For example, 20% of our estate is managed primarily for biodiversity. We recognise that there are areas we need to manage primarily. They are not limited to native woodland, but include open spaces and a range of other material. Approximately 15% of the trees we plant every year are broadleaf. That is not on an area basis. Not only do we plant dedicated areas with broadleaf trees, we plant them in buffer zones. Deputy Boyd Barrett mentioned water protection. Where we are managing conifer plantations, we create buffers in sensitive stream areas with broadleaf trees to mitigate the possibility of acidification. We use best practice to manage these areas to minimise the environmental impact, including acidification.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Does Coillte use sampling for assessment purposes?

Mr. Gerard Murphy:

Yes. We take samples as part of our environmental management systems, particularly in sensitive areas where we are required to do so to assess different attributes on a before-and-after basis to monitor the overall impact of our operations. There are also long-term studies on acidification and other areas. Acidification is not easy to monitor and must be looked at over a long period of time. UCD and UCC have commissioned a number of studies to monitor acidification, but we monitor streams, particularly sensitive ones, for any environmental damage.

Deputy Boyd Barrett made a number of points on flooding. I agree with him that forests have a very important function which is often overlooked. There is a need to consider more proactively and progressively the ways we can use trees to mitigate flooding such as we have seen in the last number of months. There is work to be done in the area of agro-forestry to come up with more innovative ways of using agriculture and forestry. In other countries, agro-forestry systems have been introduced to benefit livestock and improve and enhance soils. It is a matter of providing the necessary incentives.

The issue to which I come back is what more we can do in these areas. It is all about balancing the issues. I mentioned earlier the greater need to recognise public goods. We have started to be much more proactive about valuing public goods, including biodiversity, landscape protection and cultural heritage. Our intention is to gain more recognition for those values, and we have done some studies with the Heritage Council in that regard. When one obtains recognition of the economic value of these elements, it helps to drive more work. It is about the balance struck, economic recognition and feedback to do more work.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Is that a diplomatic way of saying that if we can get the awareness and the knowledge out there, we can shift Government policy? Mr. Murphy made the point earlier that he is led to a considerable extent by Government policy. In other words, does the change in culture and attributes and a particular emphasis on forestry have to come from us and the Government for things to change with Coillte?

Mr. Gerard Murphy:

The Deputy is absolutely right to say we are led by Government policy. What we are trying to achieve with our public goods is to ensure that there is an improved awareness of what we are delivering in terms of biodiversity benefits, nature conservation, landscape protection and recreation. The first step is to ensure that the public and those in political life recognise the contribution we are making. We consider that if there is recognition, people put value on it. Given the country's economic circumstances, we are not looking right now for large wads of money. We say simply "Let us recognise the value of what we have." If that recognition exists, we can say that not only is Coillte paying a monetary dividend to the State of a couple of million per year, it is also paying a large dividend to the public at large by way of the provision of public goods. Our objective is to raise awareness of our contribution, which will lead to more being done. That is our strategy.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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The last question was on Coillte's contribution to afforestation.

Mr. Gerry Britchfield:

The grant aid for afforestation is not directed at Coillte. We are excluded from that, particularly in relation to the premium elements. Our role is to support landowners, whether they be farmers or others, and give them the confidence to plant. We do that in a number of ways, including our recent work with the private sector on wind blow in the context of the crisis of the last number of weeks. We are trying to create a harvesting infrastructure to facilitate farmers who want to thin their crops. We encourage and support that. We are also providing routes to market. We have two very large panel mills with good demand for pulp wood at a good price. It is a very important support.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Coillte has repeated its contention that it cannot do anything because it does not get the grants and, therefore, can only facilitate private farmers. Of course, Coillte should play its role in that regard. Does Coillte honestly believe, however, that the number of private farmers contributing to afforestation will be sufficient to meet the targets and objectives we should have of reaching an average afforestation level of 30%? I certainly do not. It will not happen without-----

Andrew Doyle (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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The target is not 30%; it is 17%.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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The short-term target is 17%. There is an aspiration, which has been outlined, to at least reach the European average. It is crazy not to aspire to that.

Andrew Doyle (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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That is an opinion. Others might not agree. It is land use in total that we are looking at. The Deputy should bear that in mind.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I do, but with agro-forestry and the other approaches, we can do it. Is there any way around this problem?

Mr. Gerry Britchfield:

Ultimately, it is a question of convincing the people who own the land that forestry is the best option for them. The State already owns 10% of the land area of the country and we do not see it getting involved in going into the market to buy more for planting.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I favour that.

Andrew Doyle (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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That would require CPOs.

Mr. Gerry Britchfield:

We are in favour of saying landowners must be convinced to plant the land.

Mr. Gerard Murphy:

There is a fundamental issue involving land availability for forestry. Irrespective of who does it, there is a question of how much land is becoming available. On the one hand, there is increasing resilience in agriculture, and on the other there is, rightly, the matter of environmental designations in respect of enclosed lands. Traditionally, forestry would have been a matter of the latter. The availability of land is driven by economic factors in agriculture but also by competing land schemes. There are also socioeconomic factors to consider in respect of persuading farmers to lock into forestry for a long period. Coillte getting involved itself would not magically release more land into forestry. It is much more an issue of land-use policy and strategy approaches to encourage afforestation.

Andrew Doyle (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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There are also restrictions on Natura sites which should perhaps be re-examined to permit native woodland species to be developed. They have been prevented. A great deal of the additional requirement could be dealt with that way. It would not necessarily involve commercial afforestation but one could certainly add to the forest estate if the rules on protected zones - Natura sites - were changed. It is very simple. It might be the National Parks and Wildlife Service, which is the larger owner, in collaboration with Coillte, that ended up adding forests, given the competition for land. It is the unenclosed definition that prevents almost all afforestation in designated sites.

We have had a fair thrashing out of the main issues involved. The committee is trying to inform itself on this matter so it can provide suggestions to the Government on carbon emissions.

I took on board some of the points raised about wind energy. I believe it has a critical and strategic part to play in this matter, subject to proper planning procedures and due process, as well as having regard for the local communities where wind turbines will be set up. This issue, however, has to be examined logically and sensibly.

What was presented to the committee today is very valuable. The point about 200 million tonnes of carbon sequestration really struck me. The recent agreement on the review of the Common Agricultural Policy was based on green principles. There are ecological focus areas, as well as green and environmental practices in Pillars 1 and 2. Whether one accepts climate change or not, agricultural policy is all based on a green common sense to work in harmony with the environment while ensuring sustainable food production.

For Deputy Boyd Barrett’s information, the thinking green concept is about giving a monetary value for the percentage of land in designated areas apart from the carbon sequestration value. If the European Commission claims Ireland’s emissions have grown, we have to be able to argue that through land use we are actually reducing our net emissions. The committee is trying to collate such information to provide a report for the Government.

Whether we agree with it or not, last week’s report from the IPCC, the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, will put international focus back on this subject. We will have to play our part in defending ourselves. I thank the delegation for attending the committee and those members who remained for the entire meeting.