John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There are two distinct parts to this morning's meeting. We will deal with Chapter 6 on the land swap as a single item as it involved two Accounting Officers. Ms Geraldine Tallon can be excused from the meeting for the second part when we will deal with the Office of Public Works, OPW, Vote. Before we deal with the business of the committee, a request has been circulated to members that we reserve a seating area for Members of the Oireachtas who would like to attend our meetings. I have no difficulty with that.

Clerk to the Committee:

Over the last number of weeks we have had an issue, especially when dealing with the Central Remedial Clinic, CRC, where the Committee of Public Accounts does not allow substitution and non-members cannot contribute but a number of non-members sought to contribute and came in to sit at the table. The Committee on Procedure and Privileges, CPP, has asked us to reserve seats so that Members of the Oireachtas do not have to sit in the Public Gallery if they come to this committee to observe proceedings. A number of chairs are being put at the back so Members of the Oireachtas can come in and sit down.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They are not to sit in the place of the PAC.

Clerk to the Committee:

Pardon?

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is there, not here.

Clerk to the Committee:

Yes, absolutely.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is all right. We do not want to be supplanted overnight. We did not want an invasion.

Clerk to the Committee:

We have to hold the line.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is a hard job to get a seat around this table. One wants to hold onto it.

Gerald Nash (Louth, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We want it still to be special.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That arrangement is okay and it has been made known to the other members. Members should always remember when they contribute that there is a super-substitutions bench there in the back. We can send for replacements.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Will the clerk put a few little tables in front as well?

John Deasy (Waterford, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

He had better put in some lunch boxes.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We could put a fifth chair there for the unnamed source.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Am I right in thinking that they are, however, not permitted to attend the private session this afternoon?

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes, that is correct.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Thank you.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Are the minutes of the meetings of 22 and 23 January 2014 agreed to? Agreed. There are matters arising from the minutes. At last week's meeting the committee agreed it would seek information from the Department of Justice and Equality and the Health Service Executive, HSE, on funding to the Rehab Group. The Rehab Group also receives funding from SOLAS, formerly FÁS, and that body has been asked to supply details regarding that funding. We received documentation late yesterday from the Department and the HSE. This was circulated to members. We can examine these issues with the public bodies and Rehab and we should put this on our work programme. It is an important matter and we need to give all parties involved, including the committee, time to prepare evidence so the expenditure of public moneys can be fully examined by the committee. Not all information is in yet so we can pursue that and present it when that arrives.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Does that mean we are not making a decision on whether to call in Rehab today?

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

No, because we have not received all the information. That is still coming in. The HSE is spending a considerable amount of money, approximately €50 million. SOLAS, formerly FÁS, has a considerable budget, so we need to get those details. When we have them over the next week or so, we will bring them in.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

How long will we give them?

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The various agencies, including Rehab, have been given the time to respond. They are in the process of doing that. We are in the process of gathering the facts and figures around this. It will be up to members when they see the information as to how much time they need to examine it and then have a full meeting on it.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Within, say, two weeks?

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There are several Accounting Officers. There is the HSE, the Department of Justice and Equality and the Department of Education and Skills. There are three different Accounting Officers, three different sets of information, and the set of information we receive from Rehab.

We are looking at all of these elements being drawn together for a meeting. To make the meeting constructive and worthwhile, members will be required to examine the information. It is too early to set a date and we must agree it with the bodies concerned.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

This is reasonable and we need all the information in front of us. The HSE and the Department of Justice and Equality were quite prompt in responding to us but I notice in the correspondence from the Department that it observed responses to the audit report which had been sought have not been received from Rehab. I presume it is pursuing the matter with Rehab and should the additional information come forward we will receive it. We need all of the information and there should not be any undue delay. I wonder whether SOLAS will be as prompt as the HSE and the Department. I hope it will. When we receive the information we should not delay in making a decision to invite Rehab and the Accounting Officers to come before the committee and expedite the matter.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

SOLAS was written to a bit later than the others on this matter so its information has not come in because of this delay. With regard to Rehab providing the information to the HSE, the information requested is detailed and it will take time, but no time will be wasted in gathering the information.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I agree with all comments. It is important to note this discussion arose based on comments made in the Dáil by a Minister regarding the administration of the charitable lottery fund and public concern over the salary level of a CEO, which still has not been disclosed. We have now received, albeit late last night, a copy of the internal audit report and, as Deputy McDonald stated, the Department of Justice and Equality is making a serious accusation, which I presume to be correct, in stating Rehab never responded. The Department stated there was a management response to the audit findings and recommendations sought from Rehab as a routine element of the audit process and this was not received. We also have in our pack from the Department a letter from the chief executive of the Rehab Group to the head of internal audit, Mr. Walter Johnson, on 23 August 2012. To my mind this letter does not answer the audit findings or recommendations but seeks a meeting for the chief executive with the Department and the head of the internal audit. Can we have clarity from the Department as to whether the meeting ever went ahead?

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is one of the points which came out in the correspondence, along with a number of others, which require to be clarified. The clerk will clarify these points as we go along. This is what I stated about getting the full information. As the information is provided and the clerk analyses it, these questions crop up and they are then asked of the relevant authority. When this information comes in, the pack which the members have will be more complete.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I want to make a point on providing the committee with information. An internal audit report which is before us made very serious recommendations. There is an assertion from the Department of Justice and Equality that almost two years later these recommendations have not been responded to by the Rehab Group and I seek clarity from Rehab on this. I wish to make an associated point with regard to section 38 agencies. Tomorrow is D-day for compliance statements as they had until 31 January to respond. To date, the HSE has been very prompt in our exchange. I expect it will know by tomorrow who is and is not in compliance, and I ask it to correspond with us promptly as it would be helpful.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We are seeking information from a number of parties on Rehab. Will the clerk inform groups when correspondence has been received from others so we have co-ordination on what has been received and people are aware of the information sought by the committee and what information it has received, so the process is efficient and fair?

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We will come back to this matter next week.

I wish to refer to a letter from the Minister for Justice and Equality on the referral to the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission of the issues raised by the whistleblowers. We will meet one of the whistleblowers in private today and in respect to the Minister's letter the committee will seek to help the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission in any way it can. We received legal advice.

Clerk to the Committee:

We are getting legal advice because there are issues in terms of how we can help.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We had it last week. The committee heard legal advice from the parliamentary counsel last week on this information and the concerns around the issue of giving over the information. This legal advice will be clarified and we will revisit the issue next week.

No. 3 is correspondence received since our meeting of 23 January 2014 from Accounting Officers and Ministers. Correspondence dated 22 January 2014 from Mr. Martin Whelan of NAMA is with regard to further information requested at the committee meeting of 20 December 2013, to be noted and published.

Eoghan Murphy (Dublin South East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The first part of this correspondence details the most recent annual evaluation of NAMA's board of directors but it makes reference to the questionnaire, the final report and the action plan from the process being given to the Comptroller and Auditor General. Is it possible for us to see this documentation or is it a question for NAMA?

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We would have to ask NAMA for it.

Eoghan Murphy (Dublin South East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Can we do so? It pertains to part one of the documentation received.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We can do that. No. 3A.2 is from Mr. Ray Mitchell of the HSE regarding the remuneration of staff in section 39 agencies, to be noted and published. No. 3A.3 is dated 29 January 2014 from Mr. Brian Purcell, Secretary General at the Department of Justice and Equality regarding payments to the Rehab Group to be noted and published. No. 3A.4 is dated 29 January 2014 from Mr. Ray Mitchell regarding payments to the Rehab Group to be noted and published.

The next item is individual correspondence. Correspondence dated 22 January 2014 was received from Mr. Liam Noonan regarding the installation of water meters, to be noted and a copy forwarded to the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government for a note on the issues raised. Correspondence dated 22 January 2014 was received from Josephine Feehily of the Revenue Commissioners regarding a reply to correspondence from an anonymous source regarding a waste of money in the Revenue Commissioners' customs and excise division, to be noted.

No. 3B.3 is dated 24 January 2014 from Mr. Ray Mitchell regarding Stewarts Hospital, Palmerstown, to be noted and published. Correspondence dated 24 January 2014 was received from Mr. Tom Heffernan at the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform regarding a follow-up from the Committee of Public Accounts meeting of 15 January 2014 with Irish Water, to be noted and published. Correspondence dated 16 January 2014 was received from an anonymous source regarding the HSE in Meath, to be noted and a copy to be forwarded to the HSE for a note on the issues raised. Correspondence dated 27 January 2014 was received from the clerk to the Dáil Committee on Procedure and Privileges regarding attendance at Committee of Public Accounts meetings by non-members of the Committee of Public Accounts, to be noted. I dealt with this earlier and we agreed.

Correspondence dated 22 January 2014 was received from Mr. Owens, IT manager at the CRC, regarding clarification of a position in receipt of top-up payment in CRC, to be noted and published. A clarification has been published on the Committee of Public Accounts web page. I presume Mr. Owens has been informed.

With regard to documents relating to today’s meeting, we have received briefing papers from the OPW and from the Department and opening statements. These are Nos. 3C.1 to 3C.5.

No. 4 is reports, statements and accounts received since the meeting of 23 January. These are Nos. 4.1 to 4.6 and cover a number of agencies which report to us. If members have any issues in this regard, they can raise them with the clerk. We note the accounts.

The work programme is now on the screen. Is it agreed that next Thursday we will deal with Dublin Docklands Development Authority's annual accounts for 2012? Agreed. Do members wish to raise any other issues?

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I do not know whether it is appropriate to raise it now, but there are riding instructions for this afternoon. At 2 p.m., we have a meeting with the whistleblower. I do not know what the rules of private session are and I do not know whether we keep a record of it. I gather that there are no actual rules. Precedent is that no transcript be kept, if there is any precedent at all. I do not know what the rules of engagement are in terms of what information we can release afterwards, for example, whether a statement can be issued, whether we can talk freely to the press without mentioning names, etc. Could we have some guidance on this?

John Deasy (Waterford, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is-----

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

May I finish, please?

John Deasy (Waterford, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

This is a joke.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Could we get some guidance on what we can and cannot do? Would it be possible to have a transcript of the meeting kept?

Clerk to the Committee:

May I reply?

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes.

Clerk to the Committee:

The Deputy asked me about this matter and I discussed it with the legal adviser. As it will be a private meeting, there will be no transcript. My advice is that this is well-established parliamentary practice not just for the benefit of members, but also for the protection of the witness. A recording will be available to me as clerk for preparing a report. That recording will allow us to clarify any issue that a member has. The strong advice given to me is that we need to protect the witness as much as possible. As he has asked for the meeting to be in private, his evidence will remain confidential and be treated appropriately.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I do not disagree with the clerk, but I am not sure what the witness's view is of this. He might well prefer a transcript to be kept. In what way is this protecting the witness? I would have thought that he would have been protected by having a transcript. Is it not important that we hear the witness's opinion on that?

Clerk to the Committee:

Given that we advised the whistleblower to take legal advice to ensure his protection as much as possible, it suggests to me that there is a danger in a transcript being out there. If he inadvertently mentioned something in respect of which he was not protected, he could be exposed. If there is a transcript, the line between public and private gets a bit blurred. We have told him that, if the meeting was in public session, absolute privilege would protect him from charges of defamation in respect of the information he provided, but it would not protect him if he told us how he procured the documents. He could be accused of doing something that he should not have. We are trying to protect the witness at all times.

There will be an audio recording of the meeting. This is for the protection of the committee and the witness in case an issue arises subsequently. However, we would be blurring the lines between private and public if a transcript could be made available afterwards. This is the advice that I have been given.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Could we ask the witness whether he would prefer that the transcript be kept?

John Deasy (Waterford, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

This is absolutely ridiculous.

Eoghan Murphy (Dublin South East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

An audio report of the meeting will be made.

Clerk to the Committee:

Yes.

Eoghan Murphy (Dublin South East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is for us to seek clarity at a later date, for example, for the report.

Clerk to the Committee:

Recordings are primarily kept by me in order to prepare the minutes of meetings. In the long term, we will prepare a report on the fixed charge notice system. We may ask that matters be referred to the Garda ombudsman for investigation in respect of some of the evidence provided. We have mentioned this to the Garda Commissioner. That might be useful, but-----

Eoghan Murphy (Dublin South East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The practice with private sessions is not to keep transcripts-----

Clerk to the Committee:

Correct.

Eoghan Murphy (Dublin South East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----and the legal advice is that a transcript might endanger the witness.

Clerk to the Committee:

Yes.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I do not know if we are dancing on the head of a pin. The issue is whether a record is kept of the meeting. If it is held in audio form, one can just as easily argue that the witness will expose himself to some kind of legal problem as would be the case if it was held in written form. It would do no harm to get the opinion of the witness presenting, but I hear what the clerk is saying regarding his legal advice.

My question is slightly different. Regardless of whether there will be a transcript or an audio recording, can others besides the clerk and committee members seek access to the audio recording or compel the committee to hand it over? For instance, would ministerial colleagues have access to that audio recording? If A. N. Other third party wished to have access to it, who would make the call? Would the committee be informed? More to the point, would the witness be informed?

Clerk to the Committee:

I can only go by my own experience in this organisation, which dates back a long time. The recording is kept by the clerk to the committee. I know of one instance during a previous Dáil when a Member of the Oireachtas, a then member of another committee, sought access and was refused. The recording would purely be kept for the purpose of the Oireachtas and would be in the possession of the clerk. For wont of a better word, it would be an Oireachtas document, in that it would be owned by the Oireachtas. Other than by going to the courts, no one could take it and give it to anyone else.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is an Oireachtas document. Would it have the status of a committee document?

Clerk to the Committee:

It probably does. It would be in the possession of the committee.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The clerk knows of a precedent in which a Member of the Oireachtas sought to hear an audio recording and was refused.

Clerk to the Committee:

That is my understanding.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is problematic.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

So that we do not get bogged down on this, we will refer some of the Deputies' questions to the parliamentary legal adviser before the meeting. We will at least understand the rules of engagement with the individual.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

And to the whistleblower.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

All of Deputies Ross, McDonald and Murphy's questions, yes. We will put them to the legal adviser, but we need to get on with this meeting.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

If I may, I will make an observation. We have received lengthy legal advice on this matter and put the questions clearly to the secretariat's legal adviser, who will attend our meeting. Following all of that, we need further legal advice. There must be due process and fairness. This is a legal issue as well as a parliamentary one. Let us follow due process.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

On a point of information, I was Chairman of a committee during the previous Dáil. Many committees commence their meetings in private session and the transcript starts in public session. There was confusion. As Chairman of that committee, I listened to the audio tapes with the clerk across the road in Kildare House to clarify what was stated by various members in private session. The clerk might not be aware of this, but it can work both ways. I can verify that I have done that.

John Deasy (Waterford, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

This committee has finally entered the "Twilight Zone". Everyone in this room knows that, within a half an hour of what is said here, the information will be in the hands of a journalist.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is wrong. I would say 15 minutes.

John Deasy (Waterford, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Chairman is right. It is absurd.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We are moving on, but we will check on the questions that are relevant to the meeting. We will invite the witnesses.