Joe McHugh (Donegal North East, Fine Gael)
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We are now going to hear from representatives of Justice for the Forgotten to discuss their work to support those affected by violence in Northern Ireland. On behalf of the committee I am pleased to welcome Ms Margaret Urwin from Justice for the Forgotten, who is accompanied by Ms Anne Cadwallader of the Pat Finucane Centre, the author of the recently-published bookLethal Allies: British Collusion in Ireland. I acknowledge the presence of several people who have joined us in the Visitors Gallery, who are representing some of the families affected by violence in Northern Ireland. We have Kevin and Catherine O'Loughlin, Bernie McNally, Bernadette Joly, Thomas O'Brien, Noel Hegarty, John Byrne, Derek Byrne, Alan White, Monica Duffy-Campbell, Pat Fay and Raymond Walker. You are most welcome to today's meeting.
Before I invite you to make your presentation I advise that you are protected by absolute privilege. However, if you are directed by the committee to cease making remarks on a particular matter and you continue to so do, you are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of your remarks. You are directed that only comments and evidence in respect of the subject matter of this meeting are to be given and you are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, you do not criticise or make charges against a Member of either House of the Oireachtas, a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Without further ado I call on Ms Urwin to proceed with her opening statement.

Ms Margaret Urwin:

Thank you, Chairman, for inviting us today and good morning. Justice for the Forgotten was formed in 1996 to represent and support the bereaved families and survivors of the Dublin and Monaghan bombings. We have gradually extended our remit over the years to include the families of other bomb attacks in the South during the 1970s, including the Dublin bombings of 1972 and 1973 as well as the Belturbet, Dundalk and Castleblayney bombings. We also represent the families of the Miami Showband and several families whose relatives were killed in single incident attacks. Justice for the Forgotten, JFF, is the only dedicated organisation working with victims in this jurisdiction and is best placed to deliver services that are supportive and sensitive to the needs of victims. Our services are available to anyone bereaved or injured as a result of the conflict, regardless of political or religious affiliation.

Our work in the past included assisting the efforts of the late Judge Henry Barron during his inquiry into the Dublin and Monaghan and other bomb attacks. Justice for the Forgotten made 52 submissions to Judge Barron during the course of his investigations; we carried out our own inquiries and we interviewed people with information. Uniquely for an NGO, we were authorised by the judge to suggest lines of inquiry for the inquiry to pursue, signifying our authoritative knowledge and experience of the cases before him.
During the lifetime of the Remembrance Commission, we assisted the State extensively by identifying and locating many victims' families and survivors. We were responsible for channelling at least €1.5 million of the commission's fund to victims. The Remembrance Commission was established as a result of the recommendations of the late former victims' commissioner, John Wilson, in his report, A Place and a Name, published in August 1999.
We were centrally involved in the procurement of permanent memorials in the State. We approached and liaised with councils and the Remembrance Commission in this regard. To their credit, the councils contacted responded enthusiastically, providing partial funding for the memorials, the core funding for which came from the funds of the Remembrance Commission. As a result of these efforts, memorials were erected in Belturbet, Castleblayney, Dundalk and in Dublin for the Miami Showband. Memorials had already been secured in Talbot Street and Glasnevin Cemetery, Dublin, and in Monaghan for the 1974 bombings. A memorial for the victims of the 1972 and 1973 bombings was set into the pavement in Sackville Place, with financial assistance from Dublin Bus. The unveiling ceremonies of these memorials were very moving occasions, when the relief and joy on the faces of the families that their loved ones were being given official recognition was evident, and whole towns came out to commemorate with the families. This experience brought home to us the importance of physical structures of remembrance, not only to families and survivors, but to the wider communities in which they are placed. We provided counselling and holistic therapies where requested, but we found that the focus of the majority of those we represent was in recovering the truth of what happened to their loved ones.
We were funded for a decade by the Government from 2000 to 2009. When the Government withdrew our funding, and we failed to procure an alternative despite strenuous efforts on our part, we were forced to close our doors in July 2010. However, the Pat Finucane Centre, based in the North, came to our rescue and managed to secure limited funding for us as part of its organisation under the PEACE III programme. As a result, we were able to re-open in December 2010. The funding covers just one salary, travel and room hire expenses. Funding to run a Dublin office was refused because we were and are outside of Special EU Programmes Body's remit. This limited funding will end in June 2014. Much work remains to be done.
Although the Barron inquiries provided a considerable amount of new information, giving much solace and comfort to the families concerned, the outstanding thorny issue remaining, ten years after the publication of the Dublin and Monaghan report, is the failure of the British Government to co-operate in any meaningful way with Judge Barron's investigations. In his report on Dublin and Monaghan, the judge said that the value of information provided by the NIO was reduced because of the reluctance to make original documents available and London's refusal to supply other information on security grounds had resulted in the scope of his report being limited. The British Government has, so far, failed to comply with two Dáil motions passed unanimously on 10 July 2008 and 17 May 2011, calling on it to make the undisclosed files available to an independent, international judicial figure for assessment. Over the past year we have been in discussions with the British ambassador on how a way forward might be found, but despite some hopeful signs, no positive outcome has yet been achieved. We hope to continue our discussions with him in the coming months.
We had a significant breakthrough recently when the Police Ombudsman for Northern Ireland accepted that our complaint regarding the RUC's investigation into the Dublin and Monaghan bombings fell within its remit. Its historical directorate's investigation is due to begin this year. Another single incident case, whose family we represent, was also accepted by the police ombudsman in November. We have submitted a complaint on behalf of the Dundalk families and are awaiting a decision on that case. We will be submitting further complaints in respect of the other bomb attacks in the coming months. The Miami Showband case was accepted more than a year ago, but those murders occurred within the boundary of Northern Ireland. We view the investigation of deaths that occurred in this jurisdiction by a Northern Ireland statutory body as very significant progress, as the remit of the historical enquiries team was confined to Northern Ireland.
We are liaising with An Garda Síochána about the Belturbet bombing case, for which the chief superintendent for the Cavan and Monaghan division has recently taken direct responsibility. I confirmed this morning that I will be meeting with him next week to discuss the Belturbet bombing. The Garda Síochána in Monaghan is also reviewing another single incident murder case, at our request, for any new evidential opportunities.
Justice for the Forgotten, along with the Pat Finucane Centre, has been centrally involved in researching archival material over many years in both the National Archives of Ireland and the UK National Archives in Kew. Some of the results of this research have been included in Anne Cadwallader's best-selling book, Lethal Allies, on which she will brief the committee shortly.
A decade of commemorations has begun during which the centenary of many key historical events in our country will rightly be remembered. This year also marks the fortieth anniversary of the Dublin and Monaghan bombings in which 34 people lost their lives, the greatest loss of life in a single day of the entire Troubles. We intend organising special events to commemorate this significant anniversary and would welcome any suggestions or assistance the committee may be able to provide in order to make this a truly memorable one for the families and survivors.
As I mentioned earlier, the cost of funding a Dublin-based office was refused under the PEACE III programme because we are outside of the Special EU Programmes Body's geographical remit. From the outset, that body's remit was confined to the social and economic development of the six northern counties and the six counties immediately south of the Border. However, although we recognise that the development of economic and social conditions are very important, the most tragic and continuing legacy of the past is the impact on families and communities of the loss of life of family members and friends and the injuries and trauma suffered by survivors. We face a situation at the end of June 2014 when the PEACE III programme ends, of once again being placed in the position in which we found ourselves in 2010. PEACE IV funding will not come on stream before 2016, which may provide us again with limited funding. A new service, the Victims and Survivors Service, has been established in Northern Ireland, which will provide funding for victims' organisations within Northern Ireland. However, it has no remit to fund victims organisations outside of Northern Ireland.
We are bound to ask why it is considered that victims of the same conflict, but who were killed outside the territory of Northern Ireland, have a lesser need than those killed within its boundaries. Some 120 people were killed in the Republic during the Troubles - 51 of them in Dublin alone. Additionally, some families who lost loved ones in Northern Ireland subsequently moved to the Republic. The Victims Commissioner for Northern Ireland, Ms Kathryn Stone, invited us, along with representatives from the Tim Parry and Jonathan Ball Foundation in Britain, who are in the same difficult position as ourselves, to meet with her recently to discuss our funding problems. The meeting was also attended by representatives from the Office of the First Minister and Deputy First Minister and the Victims and Survivors Service.

The Victims' Commissioner expressed her concern at the exclusion of organisations outside of Northern Ireland from funding opportunities. At a recent conference in the Stormont Hotel, Mr. Kenny Donaldson of Innocent Victims United appealed for equal funding opportunities to be made available to victims' organisations in the Republic of Ireland and Britain.

While we acknowledge the funding and support we received from the Government in the past, there now seems to be a general amnesia, in the media, in civil society and even in Government, that there are victims of the Troubles in this State. While we readily accept that the great majority of victims are within the North, nevertheless it has to be recognised that victims here have continuing needs too. It is only fair to point out that the Government does fund the Commission for the Location of Victims' Remains and also provides assistance for a defined number of injured survivors who need medical aids such as prostheses, hearing aids, etc., but the greatest need for the majority of victims is in the area of truth recovery.

Any truth recovery process has to be inclusive of all victims of the Troubles. While it is our view that the proposals of Drs. Haass and O'Sullivan were constructive and worthwhile, the amnesia to which I have referred is, unfortunately, evident in the proposed Haass agreement of 31 December 2013 as denoted by its final published draft. The draft tells us that the proposed historical investigations unit would "take forward the remaining caseload of the HET and the conflict-related cases before the PONI". This fails to take into account the many cases in the Republic which would not be eligible to be brought before police ombudsman and the remit of the HET has, since its inception, been limited to Northern Ireland.

The response by Amnesty International to the failure of the Haass talks reinforces this sense of amnesia. The executive director of Amnesty International Ireland said: 'We are disappointed the parties failed to reach an agreement on dealing with the past, but determined to press for truth and justice for all victims in Northern Ireland." He should, of course, have said: "for all victims of the conflict." We appeal to the committee that, in the event of the Haass proposals being taken forward in the future, to make representations to the relevant parties to ensure that all victims are treated equally. This may necessitate the passage of specific legislation.

On the issue of funding, where there are structures in place including the North-South Ministerial Council, the British-Irish Council and the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly, it cannot pose an insurmountable problem to find a way to provide very modest funding for a small organisation in order that it may continue the work I have outlined to the committee today. Dublin, Westminster and Stormont should be able to reach agreement on this issue. We appeal to the committee to use its influence in this area also.

Failure to treat all victims equally is discriminatory and, in the absence of equality, talk of reconciliation rings very hollow indeed.

Joe McHugh (Donegal North East, Fine Gael)
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I thank Ms Margaret Urwin. I will take Ms Anne Cadwallader's contribution before opening it up to the committee. I note that Ms Cadwallader has quite an extensive dossier. I will give her a choice. She probably wants to read it into the record but, if so, it means she will have less time for engagement. It is up to her but if she wishes to summarise it, that would give us more time for engagement.

Ms Anne Cadwallader:

If I can, I will skip over it.

Joe McHugh (Donegal North East, Fine Gael)
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I will leave it up to Ms Cadwallader.

Ms Anne Cadwallader:

I thank the Chairman and committee for having us appear before the committee. Some members may remember me from my previous incarnation as BBC correspondent in Dublin for five years in the 1980s and later as Irish Presspolitical reporter in Leinster House at the end of the 1980s. It is great to be here as a participant and not just as a journalist. I am here specifically to speak about the book we have just published, Lethal Allies. In case anybody thinks, because it is a best seller, that I am about to retire and move to Bermuda, I am not getting any funding from it. Any money we make in profit will be ploughed back into the PFC because, as Ms Margaret Urwin said, our funding runs out in June. After that, who knows what will happen? However, it will keep us going for about a day and a half.
Some of the reviewers of the book have used the term that the Pat Finucane Centre is a campaign group for republican victims. I want to correct that. There is nothing wrong with being a republican - far from it - but we are really defenders of everybody's human rights and we are also involved in an outreach to the Unionist community which, for obvious reasons, we cannot go into in too much detail. We help anyone who comes and asks us for help. We are named after Pat Finucane. The Finucane family is well capable of campaigning on its own behalf. We believe, as he did before he was murdered, that the best way of upholding human rights is through the law, through the imposition of the law with fairness and equality on everyone.
A third of the people killed, whose deaths I detail in Lethal Allies, were killed south of the Border and most of them in Dublin. Let us eschew any partitionist mentality in our brains. The violence affected everyone in the 32 counties of Ireland, North and South, and everybody should be treated equally.
It is interesting to note that most of those murdered in the North were not republicans - in fact, only one was a republican. He was killed just south of the Border, probably by some undercover British execution squad. Most of those killed were civilians, non-combatants, and included civil servants, shopkeepers, farmers, a pharmacist, a metal fabricator, musicians, the Miami Showband, an ambulance driver and so on, while six were members of the SDLP, which was their only involvement, and some were members of the GAA. Others were probably killed merely because they were successful and were part of that new generation of upwardly mobile Catholic well-educated middle class and it was decided they had to be intimidated and some of them had to be killed. That is what happened.
There is much accusatory talk at the moment about people trying to rewrite history. There is nothing wrong with rewriting history if one is rewriting it accurately. The PFC, unashamedly, says we are involved in trying to rewrite history. What we have discovered from our research is that it simply does not fit in with the history, the dominant narrative, as it is called by academics, of the conflict that has so far been told. It is in everybody's interest to reject propaganda and speculation and any inaccuracies from wherever they come and focus on facts. As Dr. Haass put it in his proposals, the time to rise to this challenge is now. We do not have the luxury of putting it off any longer. We must ensure the past does not overwhelm the present and the future.
I wish to speak about Lethal Allies.The book has sold more than 12,000 copies so far. We are travelling to Brussels later this month and to the US in March. Most of the real investigative work was done by my colleagues before I joined the PFC. I put it all together which was a difficult task.
What is different about Lethal Alliesis very simple. It is based on fact. There is nothing in the book that has been challenged since it was written. Nobody has come back to tell us we got something wrong. That is not to say it will not happen in due course but so far, thank God, it has not happened because everything we wrote was checked and rechecked and is factual. It was so important to get facts out, not opinion, not speculation.
The book came about because there was a story to tell - the story about the wasted lives of 120 people. It is a story about the failure of both the British and Irish states to defend the lives of their citizens. The key lesson to be learned from Lethal Alliesis that collusion fuelled the conflict. Did collusion bring the violence to an end a single day earlier than it did? No. Did collusion save a single life? No. As Father Denis Faul put it, collusion taught Nationalists that they could not trust the police, the UDR or the courts. Confidence in the rule of law collapsed.
There may still be people even sitting in this room who believe that collusion is both propaganda and did not happen, that it is made up. It is true the word has been overused like a political sledgehammer. Both sides of the community and those who live in the South have much to gain from understanding its nature. Facing up to the past is going to be like looking at one's own face in the mirror after a hard night, sometimes not the easiest of experiences.

It all started off with my colleague who works with me in Armagh, Mr. Alan Brecknell whose father was shot dead and blown up in an indiscriminate attack on a bar in 1975. His family were told not to come to his funeral because they would be attacked by the IRA, which was far from the truth. When he discovered that was a lie, because his father was killed by loyalists, he started investigating, and enlisted the support of the Pat Finucane Centre, PFC. The PFC spent many years working hard on investigating what went on. That was helped immensely when the then Taoiseach, Mr. Bertie Ahern, whatever his other failings, supported by the Oireachtas, ordered the inquiry under Mr. Justice Henry Barron. His work resulted in vital forensic evidence about the so-far hidden links between perpetrators and ballistic and forensic links coming into the public domain. He had the facts. His final report prompted the joint committee to conclude that it had no doubt that collusion between the British security forces and what it called terrorists was behind many if not all the atrocities considered. The joint committee said the British Cabinet was aware of the level to which the security forces had been infiltrated and its failure to respond had allowed the problem to grow.
The Mr. Justice Barron inquiry stepped up the process a gear or two and then the Historical Enquiries Team, HET stepped it up another gear or two when it began work. A critical fact for us was that the HET officers had access to what in our sphere of influence was considered the Holy Grail, the RUC secure depository of files in Carrickfergus. They were security vetted so they could get the files. At the start, many officers were sceptical about collusion as they regarded it as propaganda, but when they saw the files, they began to talk not about alleged collusion but about collusion. I am tempted to describe what they found as a goldmine, but that would be gilding the lily. One senior officer described to me that they had discovered a cesspool, as it was referred to. Individuals were making a significant difference. Meanwhile the PFC and Justice for the Forgotten were also continuing the work of investigating the national archives in London, finding much of interest, including the fact the British knew as early as 1973 that the UDR was hopelessly infiltrated by loyalist paramilitaries but did nothing about it. We also found that weapons were disappearing routinely from UDR armouries right, left and centre, month after month and were being used to kill people. As the HET's reports began to emerge, families began to understand what had been kept from them for more than three decades.
I will give an example. Members will be aware of Mr. Eugene Reavey and what his family went through. The three brothers of Eugene Reavey were killed almost exactly 38 years ago on 4 January 1976. One gun that was used to kill them was a Sterling sub-machine gun. Five months after the murder of the Reavey brothers, the same gun was used in a gun and bomb attack on the Rock Bar in south Armagh, in which each and every single assailant was a serving RUC officer. It had been stolen from Glenanne UDR base and it was used to murder eight other people, including SDLP branch chairman, Mr. Denis Mullen, an elderly farming couple, Alan Brecknell's father, Trevor, and two others in the same incident, including a 14 year old boy. A tenth man was shot dead, after which the gun was recovered. The gun had killed 11 people in 11 months, leaving 19 children fatherless, orphaning five children, yet the HET could find no evidence on an investigation into the disappearance of this gun. A second gun, a Luger used to kill the Reavey brothers had also been used to kill Seán Farmer and Colm McCartney, a cousin of Seamus Heaney, as they returned home from an All Ireland semi-final at Croke Park. It was also used in the attack on the Rock Bar. The guns were being shared and swapped and taken from the UDR and were used by both serving RUC officers and loyalist paramilitaries. It did not matter. They got the guns and used them to kill people. This was never investigated.
Another example is when four serving police officers were involved in an attack on the bar called the Step Inn. It was known about in advance and it could have been stopped by the stroke of a policeman's pen. It went ahead and two people were killed, the mother of three young boys and a young plumber who played GAA. The RUC special branch knew all about it and knew about the involvement of four police officers in that attack, yet did nothing to prevent it. When it happened, they did nothing to investigate it. Those families have only recently discovered the facts and are on the brink of taking legal action, which they are very reluctant to take for obvious reasons. However, how else can they make accountable those who failed to uphold their rights?
There are questions about the role of Mr. Robin Jackson, possibly the most prolific killer during the entire period of the Troubles. He probably killed between 50 and 100 people. It has been established beyond any shadow of doubt that he was an RUC agent. He was allowed to continue. He died of natural causes. There are many people in the North who lost their relatives as a result of his work.
The families we speak for, and all other bereaved families, have an inalienable right to the truth. They are the real losers in the conflict. The wider society in Britain and Ireland also needs to discover the truth about collusion. In a normal crime context, the police gather evidence - forensic, admissions, eye-witness evidence. If that crime is collusion, who is there to seek evidence? Those directly involved hardly qualify.
In an article in the current edition of History Ireland, Professor James Hughes of the London School of Economics writes that the British Army's abuses of human rights in the North were not "merely low-level tactical excesses by undisciplined and racist troops but ... institutional, systematic, and approved or covered-up at the highest levels". Professor Hughes and others, point to more current disasters in Iraq and Afghanistan. The British Government currently faces a complaint on behalf of 400 Iraqi families at the International Criminal Court alleging they represent thousands of people tortured, shot, hooded, sexually assaulted and subjected to mock executions. In recent days, the British Prime Minister, Mr. David Cameron, has ordered an investigation into claims that the SAS was involved in the storming of the Golden Temple at Amritsar in which between 400 and 1,000 people were killed.
We owe it, not just to our children but also to grandchildren, to continue this work, because the work we have done shows we can establish the facts about the violent past, and when the past is honestly faced up to and examined, it has a reconciling quality. We owe it to people living far away in current theatres of war, and those yet to come, that we must learn from the past. Otherwise all we can say is that we do not learn from the past, which would be a tragedy. That is a tragedy we are trying to prevent.

Joe McHugh (Donegal North East, Fine Gael)
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I thank Ms Anne Cadwallader and Ms Margaret Urwin for their contributions. Ms Cadwallader's chilling account brings us vividly to events of that time. Deputy Brendan Smith is offering and Ms Margaret Richie, MP, will follow.

Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome Ms Margaret Urwin and Ms Anne Cadwallader and compliment them on their presentations. Ms Cadwallader has done the public a service in the publication of the book Lethal Allies. As the Chairman said it is chilling to read the stories. Some months ago, I heard the former Deputy First Minister, Mr. Seamus Mallon, recall in graphic detail some of the atrocities that were carried out in parts of Armagh. Some months ago, we had the opportunity to listen to Ms Denise Mullen and Mr. Eugene Reavey giving their account of the atrocities that were committed against their families. I have been familiar with the work of the group Justice for the Forgotten for some years through Ms Urwin, with particular reference to the atrocities and murders that were carried out in my constituency in Belturbet, Monaghan and Castleblayney. It is most disappointing that the British Government has so far failed to comply with two Dáil motions that were passed unanimously in 2008 and 2011. This committee should send a unanimous recommendation to the Taoiseach, Tánaiste and directly to the British ambassador reiterating our concern that the British Government has failed abysmally to take into account the concerns expressed unanimously by a sovereign parliament.
Ms Urwin mentioned the celebratory occasions, which is probably not the right word, when monuments were unveiled. I was very glad to be able to participate in the unveiling of the memorial in Belturbet. It gives official recognition to the desperate murder of young people on that night in December 1972 in Belturbet.

In my dealings with the families, the only message I got from them was that they wanted the truth. None of them ever wanted revenge. I compliment the families, Justice for the Forgotten and the Pat Finucane Centre on the dignified manner in which they have worked and on their commitment to advocating on behalf of the bereaved. I am glad that some of them were able to be present today. I know some of the names that were read out, having attended the commemoration of the Dublin bombing on Talbot Street each year. We should send a firm request to the Taoiseach or the Tánaiste asking him to seek British Government co-operation again. We should also send that request to the British ambassador, given how our guests have been in discussion with him for a considerable period.
When Lethal Allies: British Collusion in Irelandwas published, I read it immediately. It does a public service in outlining the campaign of murdering innocent people that was assisted by so-called state forces.

Joe McHugh (Donegal North East, Fine Gael)
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Ms Ritchie is next, followed by Deputy Feighan.

Ms Margaret Ritchie:

I welcome Ms Urwin and Ms Cadwallader. I had the courtesy of Ms Cadwallader's presentation in the House of Commons a couple of months ago.
I support the need to find the truth so as to ensure that the elements of the Haass outcomes dealing with the past are implemented by way of legislation. This matter builds on the Eames-Bradley report. Collusion fuelled the conflict. People are looking for truth, some measure of justice and accountability from the British and Irish Governments.
I take Ms Urwin's point, which was re-emphasised by Deputy Smith, about the two Dáil motions that the British Government has failed to recognise or acknowledge. Those of us who are Members of the House of Commons have a duty and responsibility to pursue the British Government in this regard. We will do so.
Recently, we learned courtesy of The Guardianthat the British Government had Ministry of Defence files at Swadlincote in Derbyshire, many of which related to the North and state collusion. As late as June 2013, the Historical Enquiries Team, HET, did not know that these files were available or what they contained. We must force them out into the open. As has been stated, there could be information in them that relates directly to what happened in the Dublin-Monaghan bombings and could be of help to Justice for the Forgotten. The committee could pursue this matter and make overtures to the Taoiseach, the Tánaiste and the British ambassador. We in the House of Commons will follow it through. A colleague of Ms Cadwallader's, Mr. Ian Cobain of The Guardian, is also anxious to pursue these matters.
Ms Cadwallader has done us all a significant service with Lethal Allies: British Collusion in Ireland. She has shone a light where others were afraid to do so, namely, on collusion, its impact and how weapons that belonged to state forces were used and misused to kill innocent people in many parts of the North. I know some of their families well. Those people eschewed violence. All they wanted was to be a part of the democratic process and bring about a shared and reconciled society in the North and on this island.
As Deputy Smith stated, it is important that the Irish Government put pressure on the British Government to bring this necessary truth and justice forward so that we can put to bed once and for all the terrible atrocities of the past. Of equal importance, we must examine the element raised by Ms Urwin, that being, the Haass talks did not consider other victims. A light must be shone on this as well. The other elements of the Haass talks must result in implementation, legislation and resolution, since these are the most important issues. We must never forget the trauma, pain and suffering of all of the victims and survivors.

Joe McHugh (Donegal North East, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Murphy will follow Deputy Feighan.

Frank Feighan (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fine Gael)
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I apologise for needing to leave the meeting during Ms Urwin's submission, but I had received it in advance. I thank her for the work done by Justice for the Forgotten.

I am encouraged that the Barron inquiry provided a great deal of new information and has supported Justice for the Forgotten. What more could this committee do? I am a member of the North-South Interparliamentary Association. If we could be helpful, please let us know.

The Troubles were difficult times. Our State did not forget, but it occasionally did not want to remember much of what happened. The Dublin-Monaghan bombings are not remembered in the way the State should. My observation includes myself, in that I may have been remiss. Sometimes, we have not been sent invitations. This matter should be further up the list. More than 50 innocent people died on that day, but they have been forgotten.

I thank Ms Cadwallader for her work. It was shocking. We have met Mr. Eugene Reavey and I am familiar with the Glenanne area. When one drives through Markethill or Bessbrook, the nearest village is Camlough. Within a mile of each other across fields are two completely different communities. Given that such murder and bloodshed occurred in small rural communities across the island, it is shocking that this information is only coming out now.

Has the HET been helpful and where should it go? It has been established, but I have heard that some of its investigations have not been helpful.

I come from Boyle, County Roscommon, which has not been at the coalface of the Troubles. One tries to understand them, but it is difficult to do so, as one did not go through them. Forgive where I am coming from. We all want to see solace and truth for the island and its people who suffered. What would be the best way forward? Would it be a truth commission? Politicians are grappling with this issue and want to do what is right.

I thank our guests for their submissions. As Ms Ritchie stated, they have shone a light where we have all sometimes feared to tread, as doing so could be inconvenient.

Joe McHugh (Donegal North East, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Wall will follow Mr. Murphy.

Mr. Conor Murphy:

I thank Ms Cadwallader and Ms Urwin for their presentations. It is an all-too-familiar story. Deputy Feighan mentioned the village of Camlough, where I was born and reared and still live. It was bombed indiscriminately twice during the period described by Ms Cadwallader. Indeed, a neighbour of mine was picked up at our front gate, driven half a mile up the road and murdered. Those responsible reversed over him as well to ensure that he was dead. It was widely believed at the time that the people involved were local RUC personnel from the neighbouring village of Bessbrook, where their station was.

That was a familiar pattern. It was not just the involvement of people in the actual events but it was the fact the areas were cleared. Helicopters disappeared. There was a level of co-ordination beyond just those involved in the actual shootings, which ensured attacks could be carried out in villages and bars in Nationalist areas generally and on individual families. It also ensured those involved were not interrupted in their endeavours. Those above that again ensured there was no proper investigation and, right up to Cabinet level, people were aware all this was happening and took no action in regard to it.

What happened in Ireland was a familiar pattern which developed in many other colonial sites of conflict that Britain managed over the years, including in Kenya, Aden and other places. It simply perfected and professionalised it more as it went through the conflict in Ireland in regard to collusion, shoot to kill, arming and providing intelligence to loyalist paramilitaries. It was a very familiar pattern. None the less, I think Ms Cadwallader's book has done a great service not just in repeating the facts which we, as a community, knew them to be but in using what limited investigations there were into them to nail down those facts. That has been a great service.

I refer to two issues, including the resource issue for Justice for the Forgotten that seems to have fallen between two stools as the Special EU Programmes Body remit does not stretch that far. The committee should support the mainstreaming of resources for the Justice for the Forgotten group from the Government in this jurisdiction. It provides a very valuable service to victims as well as to the ongoing pursuit of the truth in or around the Dublin and Monaghan bombings.

Ms Richie alluded to the fact that in the implementation of the Haass proposals, in particular dealing with the past, if there is a gap or a weakness, even though the origins of these attacks which took place in this State were from the North, which generally speaking is the area in which I live, the victims were from and the attacks took place on the southern side of the Border. If that proves to be a gap in the systems proposed out of Haass, that is something we need to address through legislation to ensure we do not leave people behind. As Ms Richie said, the conflict did not just affect the people in the Six Counties but people across the island. Attacks took place across the island, even beyond the Dublin and Monaghan bombings. Dublin was attacked again in the 1990s when Martin Doherty was killed trying to prevent the bombing of a pub. We must ensure that if we get to the stage of implementing the Haass proposals and looking at legislation, there are no gaps in that legislation so that all incidents are covered and all victims are supported in that regard.

Jack Wall (Kildare South, Labour)
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I welcome Ms Ritchie, Ms Cadwallader and members of the families. I do not want to go over what was said but I support what Mr. Murphy said in regard to funding for Justice for the Forgotten. If our sincerity means anything, we must allow the group to continue its work without concern about finance. It will continue that work, irrespective of funding. Its determination in regard to this sad piece of history is wonderful. It is great that people care and understand the trauma experienced by and worries faced by the families. We must ensure funding is put in place and that we make the strongest recommendation possible to the Taoiseach and the Tánaiste to allow the group to continue its good work without any concerns. When one is doing research and so on, one must be able to hire people and incur costs. All those things are pragmatic and they must be addressed. I hope this committee agrees to make those representations in order that those concerns of the group will be put to bed once and for all.

People spoke about Ms Cadwallader's wonderful book. It is wonderful in that it underpins the thoughts and ideas which were out there. Further pressure can be applied on the British Government by those in a position to do so, such as ourselves, ministerial committees, etc, to get it to assist in regard to any records or otherwise it has. Ms Cadwallader has underpinned the truth. That is what these meetings and this committee are about. They give people the opportunity to state their case and enable us to move on. There is no use in us just listening. We must take action as well and apply pressure on Departments or Ministers to move this on to the next stage, which is the British Government making these records and so on available. I hope we will move this on to the Taoiseach and the Tánaiste and that we will ensure the concerns about the funding of the group are not in any way undermined and are resolved.

Martin Ferris (Kerry North-West Limerick, Sinn Fein)
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I apologise I had to leave for 15 minutes. I pay special tribute to Ms Urwin on the tremendous work she and her group have done in keeping that terrible injustice alive and in the public eye and on the work they have done trying to highlight and get justice for the families of those who died, and I think it was said 150 people died in this State. Great credit is due to them. What is embarrassing, from a political point of view, is that the Government has failed to give any funding towards the continuation of the good work the group is doing. Like everybody here, we will make a representation that I hope does not fall on deaf ears, although that happens to be the case in many instances.
I read Ms Cadwallader's book, on which I commend her. She has done a tremendous service to truth and justice by putting pen to paper in this regard. What is striking and very annoying when one reads part of the 2003 Barron report is that the Irish Government showed little interest in the bombings, and when information was given to it suggesting British authorities had intelligence, namely, the bombers, it was not followed up. Again, a huge question mark surrounds the lack of follow through on information given to the Irish Government.
I read Lethal Alliesover Christmas. During the 1970s, in particular, Raymond Murray, Denis Faul and Cardinal Conway continually outlined what was happening in that area, which was known as the murder triangle, and brought it to public and political attention, but there was continuous denial about was happening. All of that has come to pass.
Robin Jackson, Ted Sinclair, James Mitchell, Kerr, the Somervilles and all those who were actively involved in killing innocent people, mainly of the Catholic persuasion, all had an association at one time or another with the so-called security forces and were allowed to continue to operate and carry out the killing of a large number of innocent people. They targeted people because they were Catholics. I read where the GOC encouraged people to use the UDA to protect their communities, irrespective of what it had done. What it was allowed to get away with was disgraceful.

People highlighted it at the time. I remember vividly that it was continuously brought to the attention of the Government here by Fr. Raymond Murray and the then Cardinal Conway. As documented in Ms Cadwallader's book, several meetings took place with the cardinal and members of the British Government at the time, yet nothing was done. It was allowed to continue. I will quote a passage from Ms Cadwallader's book regarding Robin Jackson:

Everything people have whispered about Robin Jackson for years was perfectly true. He was a hired gun; a professional assassin. He was responsible for more deaths in the North than any other person I knew. The Jackal killed people for a living. The state not only knew he was doing it, its servants encouraged him to kill his political opponents and protected him.

Joe McHugh (Donegal North East, Fine Gael)
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I will call Ms Cadwallader at the end. We have three more contributors. We will hear first from Alasdair McDonnell followed by Senator Mary White.

Dr. Alasdair McDonnell:

I will be brief and keep it simple. I congratulate Ms Urwin on her presentation, which brought back memories for me. I was a student the evening the bomb went off in Dublin and I know how scary and dangerous it was and how bewildered people were at the time. I would commit to doing anything to ensure they get justice, which I will come to shortly. I congratulate Ms Cadwallader on the success of the book because it has been a tremendous asset to many of us in tying together the threads of collusion that were running through many events. While the Historical Enquiries Team, HET, had done some useful individual work, it took Ms Cadwallader to pull it all together in her book. I have found it immensely useful.

I want to put on the record that from my perspective, surviving victims, and by that I mean the injured, and surviving relatives of the innocent people who were killed, need and deserve the truth. There is an onus on us all, whether we are operating in the North or in the South, and particularly those of us in public life, to ensure the truth is delivered. We have to do all we can in that regard. Funding for Justice for the Forgotten is a small aspect of that and I urge colleagues on the committee to support any effort that can be made to ensure some funding is given to this group to sustain it because it is doing a very useful job, fulfilling a very useful role and it should not be allowed reach a point where it cannot function.

There is a great deal of information to be absorbed and dealt with and I am grateful to the two people who presented to the committee for informing and educating us across the entire victims and survivors spectrum.

Joe McHugh (Donegal North East, Fine Gael)
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I call Senator Mary White who will be followed by Deputy Seán Crowe.

Mary White (Fianna Fail)
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I will be brief. I am humbled by Ms Margaret Urwin's continuous drive to get justice for the forgotten. What she has done on her own is awesome. I thank her very much for that. I concur with my colleague, Deputy Frank Feighan, that it would be appropriate, and this is not a criticism of the commemoration of the Dublin-Monaghan bombings, that we would put pressure on the Government in this regard. People have empathy with and understanding for this particular group of people, but we should try to engage with the broader Irish community. That is not a criticism but the Irish people should know about this. Over the years, if one ever suggested there was collusion, people would think one was off the wall; they would not believe it. What I found in Ms Cadwallader's book is that at long last it dealt with facts. Like Ms Urwin, Ms Cadwallader is a true Irish patriot.

In the summary of her book Ms Cadwallader states that an agreed truth recovery process is needed not only for the families of the people in the North but for both communities to try to learn from the past. What type of truth recovery process would Ms Cadwallader suggest?

I record that my former colleague in the Seanad, Tony Kett, told me many times that Tony Blair, who I believe should be in The Hague, along with George W. Bush, for all the crimes they have committed and the lies the two Governments told about Iraq where people continue to be killed every day, told the former Taoiseach, Bertie Ahern, that they would not open up any inquiry in this regard or on the Pat Finucane issue. I spoke here to the best friend of the former Taoiseach, Bertie Ahern, who is a friend of mine also, and he told me Blair has insisted he will not allow any transparency in terms of what has happened. That is a fact. I thank the two witnesses.

Joe McHugh (Donegal North East, Fine Gael)
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The final two contributors are Deputy Seán Crowe followed by Senator Mary Moran.

Seán Crowe (Dublin South West, Sinn Fein)
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Like the other contributors I have a good deal to say on this subject in which for most of my life on the island of Ireland I have been interested. I have met families whose relatives were killed over the years, and some of my friends have been killed, but one of the most important things we can do here today is come up with recommendations on how we can move the process forward.

I would like the witnesses to outline their recommendations on how to deal with this area. They have made the point about the ones they have investigated from the South. What are their recommendations for the South?
Ms Urwin spoke about funding ending in June. Where will Justice for the Forgotten go from here? She also spoke about the Ball and Parry families. Could she suggest a way forward for the different Government bodies?
For those listening at home, how would the witnesses respond to the simplistic narrative of those who say we should forget the past and move on? Some people say that the historical enquiries team is unfair, that it focuses on loyalists not republicans and that it is time to put that to bed, to forget about it. They say that it does not help the process of peace and reconciliation on the island. How do the witnesses respond to that narrative?
We hear the idea that there were a few bad apples in the UDR and the RUC who were generally the best of men and women. There is no doubt that there were good people in those organisations, who were there for their own fine reasons. Do the witnesses believe that there were a few bad apples or do they believe that it was part of a British Government strategy? When I was younger I read Frank Kitson’s book, Low Intensity Operationswhich dealt with the counter-gangs involved in the war in the North and the mobile reaction force, MRF. People talked about communities living side by side, Protestant and Catholic, with no tradition of conflict or tension and the impact that many of these killings had on those communities. It seemed to be a deliberate policy to try to create tension between communities. The recent book about the MRF described taking pot shots and killing people and so on. It also killed people on the loyalist side, Protestants, as well as Catholics, and tried to kill republicans. It was a negative influence.
The narrative we hear today is that when the Brits were there they were honest brokers. The appalling vista is that a Prime Minister would know about a shoot-to-kill policy. There was a pattern in many of the killings to secure the area, those who engaged in the killings were allowed through road blocks and so on. I do not think that the narrative that Ms Cadwallader offers in her book will take off. There is an agreed, accepted narrative about the conflict in the past. That is one reason why many of those opposed to dealing with the past do not want a method for dealing with the past. Maybe that is why the previous contributors spoke about the Haass proposals. There are people fighting the war in the background. They do not want their own past to come out. When the truth does come out, and hopefully it will sooner rather than later, that will move peace and reconciliation forward on the island for all of us. A structure for this has to be established. I would be interested in hearing the witnesses’ views on what that structure should be.

Mary Moran (Labour)
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I thank the Chairman for allowing me contribute. I appreciate the time constraint so I will be brief. I congratulate and commend both witnesses on their contributions today. Ms Cadwallader's book sounds chilling. The truth and statements contained in it are absolutely overwhelming. It is unbelievable.

I met Ms Urwin in Monaghan and concur with her that we must do whatever we can. When I met her two years ago funding was a big issue. I am sorry that she is back here two years later and that we have made no progress on that. She is to be commended on her work. As I come from Dundalk I know of the plaque erected after the Kays Tavern bombing.

Ms Margaret Urwin:

Does the Senator mean the memorial?

Mary Moran (Labour)
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Yes. It is very important to the families and for people in the town. When I bring my children by I point it out to them. I was very young when it happened. I was coming home from school, and did not fully understand what was going on when I heard the bang that evening. One of my neighbours was missing for several hours afterwards and I know the effect that had.

We also need to get on to the Tánaiste and the Taoiseach to get the answers on why these Dáil motions were completely ignored. That is very important and it is something that we can do to move on.

Why was the funding for Justice for the Forgotten withdrawn in 2009?

Ms Margaret Urwin:

Does the Chairman want me to answer that question now?

Joe McHugh (Donegal North East, Fine Gael)
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No the final contributor is Deputy Ellis. He should not follow the pattern set by the committee members.

Mary Moran (Labour)
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I am sorry. I stayed close to brevity.

Joe McHugh (Donegal North East, Fine Gael)
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I am not referring only to Senator Moran. Brevity is alien to the other members but this is an important issue.

Dessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Chairman for allowing me to come in. I thank Ms Urwin and Ms Cadwallader for their contributions. I have met Ms Urwin many times. She is a Trojan worker. I do not know how she keeps it up because it is a huge task and a demanding one. I have not read Ms Cadwallader’s book yet but I hope to do so soon.

I have been a republican all my life. I have been involved in the republican struggle. Like many republicans I have always believed that there was a British Government agenda, a huge behind-the-scenes influence on the conflict as it unfolded. Living in the South I saw that many people did not fully understand that. I believe the Irish Government and the State were happy enough that people did not get the proper information. In my opinion the Irish Government was aware of much that was going on, that there was a lot of collusion. The Governments during that period were in contact with the British Government and its security services, passing information. The Irish Government has questions to answer about those who were in government at the time. That this was going on has passed under many people’s radar.

People in the nationalist and republican areas knew this was happening but it did not seem to come across and there did not seem to be any big outcry. I happened to be in Dublin on the night of the bombings. I was going to a stag party and got off the bus in North Frederick Street when I heard the explosions. Unfortunately, that remains in my memory. The truth has to come out and there has to be a mechanism found for everybody to speak out.

It does not matter whether a person is republican or loyalist. Whoever was involved in what happened and unfolded, it is better the truth comes out. We have members of families who need to know what happened to their family members. We need to have closure for the many people who have been affected. I hope, in time, whether it is through a truth commission or otherwise, that we will get a full picture across the board of what happened, how things unfolded and what happened to people's family members. That is what I hope to see in the future. I look forward to finding a proper mechanism to do that.

Joe McHugh (Donegal North East, Fine Gael)
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Thank you, Deputy. Before I ask the witnesses to sum up, I point out that I am obliged by another commitment and have to leave. With the agreement of the committee, I ask that Deputy Frank Feighan take the Chair in my absence. Is that agreed? Agreed. I thank Ms Cadwallader and Ms Urwin for their contributions today. There will be follow-up in regard to what we propose to do, but I will leave that to Deputy Feighan. I thank the witnesses once again and also thank the members.

Ms Anne Cadwallader:

Before Ms Urwin has the final word, I will make a few brief comments. I was asked whether I think the historical enquiries team, HET, should continue or not. We were terribly lucky that we got HET officers who worked with us and who were very courageous, but it should not just be down to a question of luck. The guys we got were prepared to stand up to the hostility and the discouragement from others not to dig too deep. They had the courage to stand up to them and they did a good job. However, it should not rely on individuals. The HET itself is now hopelessly compromised, no one is co-operating with it, its day is over and we need something new.
I was also asked what the new process should look like. With some tweaking and some changes, Haass is certainly the basis of what would be an acceptable process. Having said that, there would have to be a few changes, but that is up to the political parties. At the moment, the whole thing seems to be unravelling, unless anybody has heard anything different. That would be a shame because this is going to be an intergenerational thing. There is no doubt that the children and grandchildren of those people who died are affected by this. Conflict will start up again, not exactly as it was, but it will continue, whatever about the need for truth of the bereaved families. There is also a duty on the state to try to prevent pressures building up, and there must be a process.
Deputy Martin Ferris asked what help we had from the Irish Government, and I will defer to Ms Urwin on that. Deputy Seán Crowe referred to Kitson and to the architects. Even though it may sound a bit conspiratorial, and members may all think I am crazy, I actually think there was a policy in the 1970s to intimidate those people who were asking for civil and constitutional rights, and it was not just a question of a few very evil men. I think there was a policy from London, but I will not go into that here because it is very complicated. It is worth reading the book, where I go into that a bit.
I want to talk very briefly about the Smithwick tribunal. When the Smithwick tribunal found that, on the balance of probabilities, there had been collusion in the murders of Harry Breen and Bob Buchanan, there was an immediate and contrite apology from the Irish Government and from the Garda Commissioner. We have shown in Lethal Alliesthere is a mountain of evidence in the files that there was wholesale collusion in the murders of more than 120 people. Far from an apology, far from contrition from the British authorities, they are trying to ignore it. They refuse to meet us, they have not apologised, they have not shown any concern and they have made absolutely no statement whatsoever. It is frankly outrageous that this is the situation.
I am a Brit. I am not Irish. I was born and brought up in the home counties of England. My father was in the British Army, as was my mother and my sister, and my brother was a policeman. I am not Irish but I am deeply, deeply ashamed of what my country has done here. However, it was not done in the name of the ordinary British people. It was not done in my name, it was not done in the name of anyone I know and it certainly was not done in my father or my mother's name. There are guilty people there, not the whole British nation. However, as a Brit, I suppose I have a special interest in all of this because I want to make my country own up to what it did here, so we can all move on together in a new spirit of friendship.
I believe the priority of the British Government during this conflict was, above all, to preserve its reputation internationally as an honest broker between these two crazy warring Irish tribes. They still, I think, try to promote their reputation as that, which is why they will fight tooth and nail to avoid facing up to the evidence we have provided in Lethal Alliesand elsewhere. It will be a hard, hard battle. The officers we work with in the HET lifted up a corner of the carpet briefly. We saw what was underneath but, believe me, they are going to try to nail that carpet down again as hard as they possibly can to avoid anybody ever again seeing what they have got hidden.

Ms Margaret Urwin:

Deputy Frank Feighan asked what we could do in the future. Deputy Brendan Smith suggested what the committee can do in terms of bringing pressure to bear on the British Government to honour the Dáil motions that were passed in 2008 and 2011, which is very important. Those committee members who were on the North-South and east-west bodies, the British-Irish interparliamentary Assembly or the British-Irish Council must emphasise to their colleagues from the British side the importance of honouring and complying with these motions.

We met with the Taoiseach in July. We had sought a meeting for a long time and we got our meeting in July. He promised that he would keep raising this with the British. It probably needs to be done in a more public way to try to somehow bring more pressure. I do not think it will be done in private or in one-to-one meetings, certainly not solely anyway. Pressure has to be brought to bear. If this committee can put forward a proposal to the Government on that, it would be very welcome.

With regard to commemorations, I can assure the committee that every Deputy and Senator will get an invitation to the 40th anniversary commemoration this year. Senator Mary White mentioned the fact the Irish people are not engaging with it. Sometimes the media does not even cover it. I have on occasion rung RTE to say it has not even been mentioned on the day of the anniversary of the Dublin and Monaghan bombings, even though a press release will have gone into RTE the previous day. We are dependent on the media to let the general public know about the commemorations but, hopefully, this year being the 40th anniversary, that will not present such a problem.

In regard to funding, I was asked why our funding was withdrawn. We do not know why our funding was withdrawn. The Irish Government had funded us for a decade, as I said, and the Barron report had been held and so on. We presume it was because the Government felt it had done enough and had given enough money, and it withdrew it.

Mary Moran (Labour)
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Was no reason given for that?

Ms Margaret Urwin:

No reason was given but I would assume that was the reason. As members know from my presentation, an awful lot of work remains to be done, particularly now that cases have begun to be accepted by the Police Ombudsman for Northern Ireland. We definitely need help to continue to support the families in that.

On a truth recovery process, we are in favour of the recommendations in the Haass proposals, provided all victims of the conflict and all deaths are included. Mr. Murphy indicated that all deaths that originated in Northern Ireland should be included. That would not be sufficient because many of the killings in the Republic did not originate in Northern Ireland. While we do not represent all of the families concerned, the families of all of those who were killed as a result of the Troubles have the right to know the details and the truth about how their loved ones were killed. The 120 people who lost their lives in this State, regardless of whether they originated in the North, have the same right to the truth. In the great majority of cases where Justice for the Forgotten represents the victim's family, the killing originated in the North. I am speaking for other victims who we do not represent when I state that they, too, have the same rights.

Deputy Crowe asked for our response to those who argue that we should forget the past. Forgetting is not an option. The families of the victims want and need to know the truth if they are to move on. This has been proved in other areas where conflicts have occurred. For example, people in Spain are demanding the truth about what happened to their loved ones during the Spanish civil war when, for example, many people were disappeared. Forgetting about the past or sweeping it under the carpet does not make it go away. It must be faced and dealt with.

Deputy Crowe also referred to the Military Reaction Force, MRF. A "Panorama" programme on the MRF was broadcast before Christmas. If the Deputy is interested, I can provide him with a copy of a little booklet I published on the issue last year. Copies are also available online.

To return to the issue of funding, Justice for the Forgotten's funding requirements are very modest because we no longer have a city centre office. I work from home, which is fine and has significantly reduced our financial need. If the joint committee would like an expenditure budget for the organisation, I will be very pleased to provide one.

Frank Feighan (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses for their attendance and engagement with the committee on the extensive work being done to support and assist all of those who have been affected by the events of the past. As the Chairman stated, we will follow up this issue with the Taoiseach and Tánaiste and reflect on the contributions we heard today, including the findings of Justice for the Forgotten and the matter of the availability of records from the British Government.

Seán Crowe (Dublin South West, Sinn Fein)
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We should discuss possible funding avenues for the Justice for the Forgotten group. Perhaps the joint committee could write to the Taoiseach about the issue.

Frank Feighan (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fine Gael)
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We will write to the Taoiseach to seek funding for Ms Urwin's organisation. I thank members for their attendance.