Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I welcome to the committee the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, Deputy Frances Fitzgerald, Mr. Jim Breslin, Secretary General, and Mr. John Lohan and Mr. Alan Savage from the Department of Children and Youth Affairs. This is our quarterly meeting with the Minister. The questions have already been sent to the Department and I thank the officials and the Minister for answering them in a timely fashion. It makes life easier for everybody.

By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence you are to give this committee. If you are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and you continue to so do, you are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of your evidence. You are directed that only evidence connected with today's proceedings is to be given and you are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, you should not criticise nor make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I call on the Minister to make her opening remarks.

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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I am pleased to have the opportunity to update the Joint Committee on Health and Children in support of its quarterly review of my Department's work. Today’s meeting provides another opportunity to bring Deputies and Senators up to date on important developments in the work of my Department since our last quarterly review in October, as well as looking ahead to the immediate future.

The President signed the Child and Family Agency Bill 2013 this week and yesterday I signed the commencement order, which means that the Child and Family Agency will be established on 1 January 2014. The Bill has been enacted and the commencement order, by way of statutory instrument, has been signed and that effectively clears the way for the establishment of the new agency. This is a historic development and a significant milestone for all of us who are concerned about child welfare services for families and child protection. It is a significant milestone in the programme for Government because it is a big initiative to transform fundamentally how we deliver child protection services. We have removed these services from the HSE and created a standalone agency with a dedicated focus on children's services and child protection.

Chairman, I want to take this opportunity to thank you and all your colleagues, particularly the party spokespersons, namely, Deputies Ó Caoláin and Troy, for the very constructive parliamentary scrutiny we have had in the development of the Bill. I believe this parliamentary scrutiny, as well discussion with NGOs, has added considerable value to the legislation. It is a solid foundation. We are all conscious of the decades where child protection services were not meeting the kind of standards we would all like to see.

We now have the necessary foundations in place and must commence the work of eliminating the fragmentation of children's services as recommended in the task force report of 2012. We must also ensure, which I am confident the legislation will do, that the agency works within a strong framework of public accountability. That is very important. Clearly, change will not happen overnight. There are many challenging issues to be addressed in terms of a changing society and the pressures on families in relation to alcohol and drug addiction, about which we have spoken previously at this committee, children's needs not being met and children needing to be taken into care. The recent publication by Dr. Carol Coulter, among others, has given everyone an insight into the precise challenges that the services are meeting on an ongoing basis.

The formation of the agency will bring together key services relevant to children and families, including child protection and welfare services currently operated by the HSE, the Family Support Agency and the National Educational Welfare Board. The agency will be tasked with achieving a new strategic focus, better management and consistency of approach so as to deliver a world-class Irish service model of child welfare and protection. It will also have statutory responsibility - this was a feature of our discussions - for ensuring that every child in the State either attends school or receives a certain minimum education. This responsibility currently comes within the remit of the National Educational Welfare Board. The challenge now is implementation. The budgetary parameters have been set out in this week’s Revised Estimates. I am now in a position to finalise and formally notify the agency of its first allocation. As members will be aware, careful planning has been under way for some months now. This is the largest public sector reform ever undertaken by a Government. The agency will have 4,000 staff and a budget of €600 million. I would like to place on the record my appreciation of the work of the staff of my Department, led by the secretary general, Mr. Jim Breslin, on this process. An enormous amount of work has been done at every level, including at HR level in terms of engagement with the unions and staff. A huge implementation plan has been put in place. In terms of accountancy, a separate budget has been put in place for the agency. One can only imagine the task it has been to separate out that budget from the HSE. In my view it has been done effectively and efficiently. As this work often goes unnoticed I take this opportunity to pay tribute to the staff for their time and effort in implementing the plan to ensure transition to the new agency on 1 January 2014.

The board of the Family Support Agency, which I appointed in September 2013, chaired by Ms. Norah Gibbons, will be, from 1 January 2014, the board of the new Child and Family Agency. Early in 2014 I will set out the performance framework for the agency, which will form the basis of its first corporate plan. The performance framework is intended to communicate the overarching values, priorities, activities and resources within which the Department will assess and track the agency’s performance. No doubt we will have an opportunity to discuss that during a meeting of this committee. This process will give transparency to the Government’s expectations for service delivery, identify changes in policy, set key service improvement priorities and create a demand for accountability for the delivery of the services in line with principles, quality standards and the resources allocated. I will keep members informed of these developments as they progress in the new year. During the course of passage of the legislation there was much discussion on issues such as performance and accountability, the need for reporting to the Minister and the setting of priorities.

The preschool quality agenda has been a topic of considerable concern within this committee. There are currently almost 2,000 preschool inspection reports now online. I have brought forward legislative changes in the Child and Family Agency Act to provide for statutory registration of all preschool services, the introduction of new enforcement powers for inspectors at pre-prosecution stage and increased penalties at District Court level for offences under the Act. New national preschool quality standards have been developed and will be launched shortly.
Minimum qualification requirements for staff working in preschool services are being increased. Budget 2014 includes an allocation of €4.5 million to establish a new national quality support service for preschool services, the recruitment of new inspectors and to support training and upskilling.

We are also presented with a wealth of valuable information from the Growing Up in Ireland surveys. I recommend that every policy maker in this country familiarise themselves with the data from that study. We are currently very data-rich. The most recent presentation by the Growing Up in Ireland study, which comprises representatives from Trinity College and the Economic and Social Research Institute, ESRI, sets out the situation in respect of Ireland's five year olds and shows that the preschool year has been very successful in helping children to transition to primary school. It also highlights the groups of children who remain vulnerable. The committee may in the new year wish to discuss the 15% to 20% of children who need particular supports in order to thrive. We need to focus on that group. While the vast majority of children are doing well, a cohort of children are not. These are the children on which we must focus during the coming months and years.

The publication last week of a further tranche of reviews conducted by the National Board for Safeguarding Children in the Catholic Church, NBSCCC, are a reminder of the past consequences of inaction and failures to protect children. We know from these reports that there is now greater focus in the diocese on child protection. I welcome that my call that these reports be published has been answered and that there will be ongoing publication in this regard. There is more work to be done in relation to the congregations so that we can see precisely what is happening. I have asked for a timeframe in respect of publication of those reports. I am hopeful that by the end of next year all of the congregation reports will have been published. As members will be aware, the recently published congregation reports contain some disturbing findings. They also contain many points in relation to other countries where the orders are operating and the risks to children in those areas, which need to be followed up. I would like everybody involved to do what they can to ensure that the types of improvement brought about in Ireland in this regard are standard practice in work overseas.

I also recently launchedthe report entitled An Examination of Recommendations from Inquiries into Events in Families, their Interactions with State Services and their Impact on Policy and Practice, authored by Dr. Helen Buckley and Dr. Caroline O’Neill, which notes thatmany inquiry recommendations have acted as a mechanism for positive change. The committee might be interested in hearing first-hand about that report from Dr. Buckley and Dr. O'Neill in terms of their recommendations for moving forward and how we ought to be learning the lessons of past inquiries, which information is very helpful.

On the area-based childhood programme, the additional areas have been announced. There are now 13 areas in which the area-based childhood programme will operate. I was most impressed by the coming together of agencies in regard to what they wanted to see happening in their areas. For example, in one area in Dublin, 42 organisations came together and put forward a submission in respect of area-based support for children and families. One of the criteria for funding under this programme was such inter-agency work. It is interesting to note that when one makes inter-agency work a criterion for funding, organisations at local level are able to ensure this happens. We need to see a lot more of this. It was certainly a feature of the projects submitted. The engagement between all of the services working in particular areas was very welcome. We must now work to implement the programme. I welcome the efforts of organisations in putting together their submissions. We will continue to work with approximately 12 of the programmes in a mentoring capacity. The first group of areas will continue to be involved in the projects. There is also another a group to which we will provide mentoring so that they can get to the point at which they are equally able to deliver the types of programme that are being supported this time around.

I wish to say a brief word on detention centres for children. The major capital project has been officially launched and construction is under way. The Chairman was concerned about the campus manager. A new campus manager has been appointed by the board of management of the detention schools following an open competition and has taken up duty from the start of this month. That is a key step towards our plan to amalgamate the three existing detention schools. A relevant court case unfolded recently, as Deputies and Senators will be aware.

We are working on after-care provision and it will be included in the child care Bill, which I hope to have ready in January. Focus Ireland has welcomed the progress on after-care provision, which we are putting into legislation for the first time.

We will be publishing the national children and young people policy framework. A great deal of work has been done in my Department and with other Departments. I have recently updated the Cabinet on progress and I hope to publish the framework early in 2014. It is a framework for all of Government. The committee will have noted the section on children in the Medium Term Economic Strategy 2014-2020 document, which was published this week. It references this plan as a goal of Government. We will work from the framework, which has three different elements.

Several important Government commitments have been met by the Department, including holding the children's referendum and providing for the establishment of the Child and Family Agency. We have started the transfers from St Patrick's Institution to Oberstown and we have expanded the response to area-based poverty under the area-based childhood initiative. There will be a new phase in 2014 when, using the children and young people's policy framework, we bring further direction and energy to achieving improvements.

I hope that has given the committee some idea of the work done by the Department since we last met. I am appreciative of the work of the committee and its interest in this area.

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the Minister and her officials this morning. In her statement the Minister alluded to the problem of alcohol addiction in the area of child welfare. Recently, we had the Government rapporteur before a committee. He cited the problem of alcohol addiction and the need for a ban on alcohol advertising. Where does the Minister stand in this regard? Does the Minister see it as something that she and her colleagues will be pursuing vigorously in the new year?

It is welcome that the Child and Family Agency is finally in legislation. The Minister alluded to the report that the task force gave her in 2012. Key recommendations of that report were not implemented, including, specifically, the recommendation that the child and adolescent mental health services should come within the new agency and the recommendation on public health nurses. Will the Minister update the committee on when she envisages those key services coming under the remit of the Child and Family Agency? Will the historical deficit be carried over? Has the Minister been able to secure additional funding to ensure that the agency is starting from a clean sheet?

There are some issues with the preschool quality agenda. I have asked on several occasions but failed to get an answer in respect of the €900,000 training fund. Originally, the Minister stated that Early Childhood Ireland was awarded a grant. Earlier this week, the Minister described it as an extension of its funding. I am still somewhat perturbed about how funding can be allocated without expressions of interest or without ensuring that we are getting value for money. I reiterate that I have no problem with Early Childhood Ireland but I believe that the allocation of State funding should be done in an open and transparent manner and through proper procurement processes.

The Minister has recruited additional staff to the inspectorate and that is to be welcomed. The Minister alluded previously to the fact that she would be moving away from public health nurses and moving into the area of specialists in early childhood education to ensure a more rounded approach from an inspection point of view. Most of the advertisements that went out cited a requirement to be a public health nurse. Perhaps the Minister can update us on the position. When does the Minister envisage moving to specialists in early childhood education?

I asked a specific question on the mentoring programme. It was brought to my attention that the position seemed to be more advanced than the reply given to me. The Minister identified how she would implement the mentoring programme. She explained that it would be rolled out nationally and that there would be one supervisor for Ireland and then several regional supervisors. Where exactly is the process? Has the Minister moved away from that?

Another issue relates to the safeguarding of children. I am surprised that today, almost three years into the Minister's tenure, she did not mention the Children First legislation, an issue she had said was a key priority of hers. This is one of the most critical tranches of legislation and we are still awaiting it. Perhaps the Minister will update us today on when it will come before the committee and when we can expect to see it going through the Houses of the Oireachtas.

The Minister referred to detention schools for children. The Hogan judgment relates to people's entitlement to remission. What plans does the Department have in place to meet the judgment? Perhaps the Minister could update the committee on that.

The Minister alluded to the children's rights referendum, which we all worked on and supported. The referendum is over 12 months past. I gather there is a further challenge to the result in the judicial system. Does the Minister have any indication of when we will be in a position to bring forward the legislation to give effect to the referendum? I suspect the Minister will not answer the question, but it is disappointing that 12 months on from when the people cast their vote, the result has not materialised. The reason it has not happened is that at the time a mistake was made by the Government in publishing documentation that was clearly in breach of the McKenna judgment. The children of Ireland are paying the price for that today.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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To get off on a better note, I take the opportunity to wish the Minister and her officials a very happy Christmas. It is most important that we have the child and family agency ready to roll from the beginning of the new year. It is, without question and as the Minister has described, historic. It will live up to that, I have no doubt, over the years ahead.

At the conclusion of the legislation in the Dáil, I wished all those involved well in their respective roles and responsibilities, including Norah Gibbons and Gordon Jeyes. Have all the board positions been filled? With the Minister confirm whether that is the case? We should give the new agency the opportunity to settle in. I have no doubt there are many things I could ask, but we need to give the agency a period to settle in and then the more searching questions can apply. I wish the agency well in the major undertaking that it is now embarking on.

I received responses to specific questions I tabled in advance of today's quarterly meeting. I wish to ask some brief questions regarding the ongoing address of the issue of the children of the Roma families taken into care in Dublin and Athlone.

The Minister has indicated in her response that she has received reports on each case from the HSE's child and family services. I presume they have been authored or signed off on by Mr. Gordon Jeyes. Will the Minister clarify this regarding the Dublin and Athlone cases? She has advised that the reports have been furnished, in turn, to the Ombudsman for Children, Ms Emily Logan, whose investigation is ongoing. Will the Minister indicate when she expects Ms Logan to publish her report? Do we have any idea of the timeframe Ms Logan has indicated she will require in order to complete her investigations and publish her report, including any recommendation she might make? This important matter has not only attracted domestic attention but also international attention. I am mindful of the fact that people are looking at this issue because we are conscious of the backdrop to these cases on the European stage. I am anxious that we continue to pursue that matter for all the right reasons.

As regards attempts by adopted persons to trace their birth mother or birth parents, as the case may be, the Minister has indicated that the HSE is in the process of reorganising the information and tracing system to allocate social work resources countrywide in a way that will allow for reduced waiting times. There are serious disparities in the experiences of many such persons. How far on is the HSE in organising information given to it by a raft of organisations, including religious and secular institutions? The list is substantial, as the Minister said. It is welcome that this information has now been placed in the State's hands and that the HSE is progressing its reorganisation. What change, if any, can adopted persons expect in the HSE's management of these files, compared to the regimes that had that information in their care during all these years? Can we expect an improvement in the position for adopted persons who are anxious to trace their birth mother or birth parents, as the case may be?

The Minister has also indicated that she is continuing with her preparations on the heads of the adoption information and tracing Bill. She has said she is anxious to bring the heads of the Bill to the Government at the earliest possible date. Will she indicate when she expects to bring them before the Government? Will she publish them? When does she expect the Bill to be published? Will we see sight of it in the first six months of 2014?

My last question concerns the closure of the Rath na nÓg care centre. I do not intend to labour the point, but Question No. 24 continues to be an issue of some concern to me. I have received correspondence from Mr. Jeyes in this regard and will be addressing the matter directly with him, I hope early in the new year. I wrote to the Minister about it and expressed my concerns about the directive to close down the facility. The directive was issued from the national office. Despite the fact that we have had a meeting since, I advise the Minister and Mr. Breslin that I have received no response to the Minister's correspondence to me. That is a matter of concern to me.

I am also concerned that I have received correspondence from Mr. Jeyes following comments I made in public on this matter. I repeat my earlier points. I wish everyone with responsibility for the new agency every success. I have no question on their competency, but I am concerned. I will address these matters again with the Minister in the future.

Jillian van Turnhout (Independent)
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I also extend season's greetings to the Minister and all of the staff in the Department of Children and Youth Affairs. As I realise it is not resourced to the levels we would all wish, I can understand the pressures involved.

I welcome the Minister's commitment on aftercare services and think she will receive cross-party support for that measure which will make a real difference to children's lives.

I asked a question on the Child and Family Agency and thank the Minister for the details, which are really useful. Such details, however, prompt further questions. Will the Minister confirm that establishment day is 1 January 2014? As "January" is stated, I wonder if there has been some movement in that regard. I understand the Revised Estimates Volume will be coming out, but will the Minister confirm that the agency will not be burdened with a deficit from the start? Will it be fully resourced?

The Minister has mentioned a corporate plan for three years and the annual business plan. When is it anticipated that these plans will be available?

As regards the agency's budget, over €100 million will go to organisations that provide services. I was surprised to learn that 700 agencies would receive that funding. When I saw the reply, I was surprised to learn that so many organisations, agencies and bodies were providing services. Given that we have a new agency, will there be a process whereby the agency will state the needs it can meet within current resources? Will it also state what it cannot meet and which will, therefore, be outsourced? We are falling into a pattern of funding the same organisations to do the same thing, rather than taking a step back. I know it cannot be done overnight, but I like to believe that with the new agency we will be moving towards a new business model, stating what needs can be met within current resources. Looking at the top ten list, I am not sure exactly what one or two of them are doing. That makes me wonder what the approach is.

I asked about the national children and youth policy framework, which I look forward to supporting. I know that much work is ongoing in that respect and that there is a whole-of-government approach, which is really important. This is not a departmental but a whole-of-government strategy. I was surprised to read in one of the replies to another question that the Irish Youth Justice Service would have its strategy next year. I wonder how these relationships will be interrelated. We could be tripping over strategies, when I thought the idea was to integrate them.

On direct provision, I thank the Minister for meeting the Seanad cross-party group recently. We had a constructive meeting, on which we can follow up. In the response it was said people could report concerns about child protection to the HSE's child and family services, but they are part of the RIA unit. Therefore, from the perception of somebody within the direct provision system, they are reporting to the same people who are making a judgment on their application. That is inappropriate because it must be separate and different.

I remain concerned about special care placements, but that is an issue to which I will return in the new year.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin referred to the Rath na nÓg care centre.

I have serious concerns about whether we as a country are able to meet the needs of these children. There is a long path to the identification of special care needs, so the fact that we have a 45-day waiting list is a major concern for me, as it is for the Minister. We need to put a sharper focus on this issue. It was announced that the heads of the Children First Bill would be revised again. I would like to know when that will happen so we can examine that and be supportive.

Colm Burke (Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister and her staff for all the work they have done over the last two and half years. It is not an easy task to establish a new agency and transfer 4,000 people. In a way, it is like taking over a company and doing due diligence beforehand, so it is quite a long process. There is a case of crossover between the Minister's Department and the Departments of Education and Skills and Health. What process is there to ensure no area falls between two stools if there is disagreement over which Department has responsibility for a particular area? I presume there will be teething problems in the first 12 months. Is there a structure to ensure no issue is left in limbo with nobody able to make a decision about whose responsibility it is?

Sandra McLellan (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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Many thanks to the Minister for her opening statement, which gives us a good clear picture of the status of a number of key initiatives this year, including the Child and Family Agency. I thank the Minister for her very thorough response to a parliamentary question on Oberstown. Will interim accommodation be necessary while the new development is built? Regarding the spending of €3 million on the youth programmes in the budget 2014 and the cuts, there is not much going on for young people by way of employment and facilities, particularly in new towns, and the cuts will exacerbate that. The Minister needs to take note of that. When the Football Association of Ireland, FAI, ran the Dublin street leagues there was a 49% reduction in local Garda call-outs, and it cost only €15,000. If one puts in the money one reaps the rewards.

On the level of inspections of preschool facilities, we should seek to ensure all areas are compliant with the minimum frequency of 18 months. Which areas are out of step in this regard and when can we expect that all areas will be subject to inspection with a frequency of under 18 months? I tabled a question on the area-based approach to child poverty initiative before publication of the details. It is a very positive initiative. Are there plans to expand it to other areas within the lifetime of this Government?

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the members. I will reply in a general way on the legislative programme because everybody has raised it. There were two legislative developments that were additional to the original legislative programme: the preschool changes in the Child and Family Agency Act 2013 and this week’s Adoption (Amendment) Bill 2013 to address an urgent situation regarding Russian adoptions. The Child and Family Agency Act was a major piece of work and was prioritised to meet the target date of 1 January 2014 for the establishment of the agency.

The children Bill was at a very advanced stage. It was interrupted by events in the High Court which meant it was necessary to introduce provisions for remission, as members know, and this requires review of the legislative provisions in the existing Bill and criminal justice legislation. However, that is at an extremely advanced stage. Some final details and any implications that court decision would have in terms of regime change for detention must be dealt with.

The revised heads of the Children First Bill were agreed and drafting is very advanced. We have had some discussions on the sanctions that will apply and have had to have much interaction with the Attorney General’s office on co-ordination, which we always knew would be an issue, between the sanctions and the withholding of information legislation, which the Minister for Justice and Equality introduced over a year ago. Our current discussions are centred on finalising that issue so that there is a perfect match between the two, because we cannot have different sanctions on the withholding of information. A huge amount of work is being done. It is very advanced, and very early in the new year we will be in a position to circulate the final Bill to Government and introduce it into the House.

On the adoption (information and tracing) Bill, my intention all along was to have legislation that is as broad as possible in terms of people’s ability to access information. The most up-to-date legal advice and the European legislation that has emerged in this area tell me that there are very significant constraints on how much historic information related to the birth mother can be shared where a mother has not given consent. There is a constitutional barrier there as well as European legislation, and the implications are restrictive. Many people will be disappointed with that. I am disappointed because I favour as much open adoption as possible. People need and have a right to as much information as possible on their identities. For the future we can make that very straightforward in legislation but historically there is a major problem. I have asked the Chairman of this committee to hold hearings on this as soon as the legislation is ready to go in the public arena, because there will be major public interest in it. People must understand very clearly that there is no wish on my part or that of the Department to restrict access but that there are very serious constitutional issues. The public needs a good-quality discussion on that and I hope the committee will be able to facilitate it. The heads of that Bill will go to committee in the new year and the committee will decide how to proceed.

Deputy Troy made a number of points, one of which was on the development of the child and family agency. The task force gave us a vision and we had to decide how to proceed. I have already gone into much detail about the agencies that will come under the new child and family agency on 1 January 2014. Protocols will have to be agreed to outline very clearly the relationship between the new agency and the mental health services and public health nurses, and there must be a very close relationship between them. Members will appreciate the amount of negotiation that has already taken place on the transition. Exactly what elements of those services should ideally transfer to the agency will require detailed discussion and negotiation, and there are very different views on it. For example, some people working in the child and adolescent mental health area feel those services need to be aligned mostly with adult psychiatry as opposed to children’s services in a child and family agency. I believe there must be a very close working relationship between those child and adolescent mental health services, CAMHS, and the agency if we are to give the best services to children and families.

Last week I met many of the agencies and advocacy groups working in this area to discuss these issues. We have a long way to go in terms of key working relationships. Some good progress is being made. There are some very good initiatives regarding children in care who are being worked with by the adolescent mental health services. The mental health services can work with the new agency in a range of ways, including consultation and direct service, but the young people in contact with the new agency should have very quick access to mental health services and must be a priority for the mental health services.

This links to another question Senator van Turnhout asked about how we will align priorities between the new agency and other services. We will need protocols to begin with about the relationships. I am trying to bring in all the services that were recommended in the first instance. It was felt that would involve a great deal of negotiation with the nursing associations and all the other bodies involved. In terms of the scale of the agency we decided the appropriate way was to proceed in the manner in which we have done. We will be very closely examining the relationship between the agency and the public health nurses and will begin to examine how we can move forward in terms of closer co-operation, new protocols and, perhaps, seeing closer links between the two agencies. We should return to this because, following on from my meeting with the advocacy groups, representatives of CAMHS and other mental health services and the HSE last week, there are some very interesting initiatives and ways forward we can develop in the meantime.

I have dealt with the issue on the grant to Early Childhood Ireland on a number of occasions. It is very common for Departments to allocate grants to various organisations and it has started that training. I have given a detailed reply on mentoring. Some thinking has been done within the Department as to how this service might be organised. We envisage a national service with mentors assigned to geographic areas. The Department will be consulting key stakeholders, including Pobal, the child and family agency, the city and county child care committees and the wider sector, in the coming weeks. We will do a round table discussion with all those stakeholders to get their best thinking on how this service should be delivered. It should be a national service with a fair geographic spread. It also means some of the people who have done further training in child care will get opportunities to use that training in developing and professionalising the services.

Members asked about the 2014 budget allocation. The 2014 allocation will have to do solely with 2014 expenditure and will not have to address historic deficits. The Revised Estimates were published yesterday and it will be €602 million in current and €7 million in capital. From 1 January 2014 the board will have 30 days to submit a business plan for the Minister's consideration. Early in the new year I will set out the three year performance framework, following which the board will develop a three year corporate plan. That is laid out in legislation. There are many demands on the services, as we know. There are proportionately more children in the population and more children coming into care.

Deputy Troy began his contribution by speaking about alcohol and addiction issues. The number of young children coming into care from families where addiction is a very serious issue is very striking. The same is happening in the UK. The UK legislation is very strong on giving those children a second chance as opposed to constantly returning them to families where there are serious addiction issues. We must examine very seriously the best interests of the child in many of these situations and see what decision, from both a court point of view and a practice point of view, gives these children the best opportunity. Some children are in very difficult situations where child care services are helping by keeping them in the service for most of the day and in the evening returning them to families struggling with addiction. There are concerns and those cases must be followed very carefully.

Deputy Troy mentioned the current situation. If people take court cases, they must be heard and there is a timeframe. The High Court ruled very favourably on the situation just a view weeks ago. Another element of that case has just been heard and the Supreme Court will give its determination in due course. It is expected around April and the legalities will be finalised then, but I prefer not to comment as I am a party to those legal proceedings.

My private secretary delivered a letter to Deputy Ó Caoláin's pigeon hole last week in reply to the question he raised on Rath na nÓg, so I do not know what happened to that letter. I apologise if he did not receive it. It disappeared somewhere en routefrom my office to the Deputy's pigeon hole. I have a copy of the letter here. We can follow that up after the meeting.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Could I have a copy of the letter?

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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Of course. I will not put it in the Deputy's pigeon hole. I will hand it to him directly.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I will send my pigeon over to pick it up.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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Emissaries are always welcome.

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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I do not know what happened to the pigeon. All the board positions have been filled. The Deputy also raised the Roma situation and the ongoing independent inquiry by the children's ombudsman. All the terms of reference and reports have been given to the ombudsman. It is an independent office. I have no doubt she would be keen to get the report done as quickly as possible but we have not got a timeframe for it. The Roma situation is of considerable international interest given their movement and the very marginalised position of many Roma in this country and elsewhere. It will be very interesting to see precisely what the ombudsman has to say on the actions taken in Dublin and Athlone.

In a reply I supplied, it was stated the number of times section 12 has been invoked. Clearly, a section 12 is taken in an emergency situation. That is the intention. Section 12 was invoked 728 times in 2010, 751 in 2011, 764 in 2012 and 584 in 2013 to date. The ombudsman will be examining section 12. It is very important the Garda can react to situations. The force has been involved in some very difficult situations where emergency action was needed for children. I look forward to receiving the ombudsman's report. It is very important we examine precisely what happened and the interaction between the Garda and HSE.

The Deputy raised a number of questions on adoption information and training. I have given as much information as I have on the records. The Deputy raised a very relevant point on access. The HSE is dealing with this. Priority is being given to gathering all the records together, which is the first step. The service people can expect is the key question. The HSE is examining what allocation of social workers it can make. This is an extremely busy time for the child and family agency coming into being but I will get some extra information and find out how it intends to develop the service. It must take its place in a long list of priorities in this time of change.

It has not been satisfactory. I have heard some very unsatisfactory personal experiences from people trying to get information. We need to offer a professional service but there is quite an amount of work involved in bringing together tens of thousands of files that have been scattered throughout the country.

The new legislation will provide a statutory basis for this work, which has commenced. There are many files in varying states and there is huge archival work to be done to make them readily accessible. No doubt, as this is an issue critical to individuals, it is one to which we will return. I will try to ascertain what priority the HSE is giving to this process and how it sees it developing in the new year. I hope that will be helpful and that I have responded to all of Deputy Ó Caoláin's questions.

On Senator van Turnhout's questions, I have clarified the issue in relation to the budget. The Senator made the point that €100 million is allocated from the child and family agency to voluntary organisations. We have seen in recent weeks the degree to which the State funds voluntary organisations. A huge amount of taxpayers' money is given to many NGOs and voluntary organisations. Very often, while a percentage of funding is provided by the public, the majority of it is provided by the State. This may not have been as fully understood in the past as it is now following the recent discussions by the Committee of Public Accounts and elsewhere. The same applies in the area covered by the child and family agency in terms of the €100 million allocation.

Senator van Turnhout's point about the bringing together of the priorities of Government and an agency in terms of allocations is important. The establishment of an agency such as the child and family agency provides an opportunity for joined-up thinking in terms of allocation of funding. I agree with the Senator that it should not be the case that just because historically funding has been given to certain services, they should continue to get it. There is always a resistance to change, not least from colleagues in the House when we make funding changes. Agencies often believe they should continue to receive funding, even if they are not working on priority issues. It is a key issue in the context of the resources available. There are many parenting courses but the questions that arise are how many we can fund and where this issue fits in terms of priorities. There is a need for closer alignment between Government funding. It is important we move in the direction suggested by the Senator. There must be a commissioning of work that needs to be done and aligns with the key priorities being presented to us. If there are 40,000 referrals to the child and family agency and we are funding it, I want to ensure it is working with those children and families who are in crisis and need services. This requires alignment. Equally, we must accept the independence and creativity of voluntary organisations and new initiatives. As Deputy Ó Caoláin said, the agency must be given time to settle in and establish itself. It must also be given an opportunity to work out the alignments and priorities.

I note the Senator's point in relation to special care, in respect of which we are developing additional places. However, this will not happen overnight. One wonders why these residential and special care placements were not developed during the Celtic tiger years and why we are still using facilities abroad. However, that is the reality. We cannot magically produce places but a plan is in place to create additional places. For the first time ever we are approaching this from a national point of view. A person in charge of special care has been appointed. A more co-ordinated approach than ever before is being taken to the needs of special care. Also for the first time ever, funding has been provided for a new service which will provide treatment for and work with young people who are coming into special care and high support.

Engagement between the Department of Education and Skills and the Department of Health is ongoing. I meet the Minister for Education and Skills at least twice a year and our officials are in constant contact. Both Departments are engaged in a particular piece of work and there a number of other cross-departmental committees doing key work in this area. As the agency develops and we see where further co-operation is needed, we can develop the necessary mechanisms to ensure this happens effectively.

Deputy McLellan has raised with me a number of times her concern in relation to youth services. I am pleased to inform the Deputy that because of the additional money allocated by the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Howlin, to youth services, the reductions in this area will be closer to 3.5% and 4%. The agencies have informed me that, generally speaking, they will be in a position to deliver services. The previously proposed 10% and 5% cuts would have been very harsh given what is happening in the area of youth services. The additional €1 million provided has enabled considerable cutting back on what was originally intended. I am pleased with this and would like to see it continued next year. I believe youth services provide extremely good work.

The Deputy also asked about expansion of the area-based childhood, ABC, initiative. As I said earlier, 12 additional areas will receive mentoring. This means that if funding is available, they should be in a position to deliver the type of services being developed by the area-based childhood initiative. This is evidence-based. Results from the three pilot projects were very good. I have succeeded in getting €14 million from Atlantic Philanthropies, for which I thank it. I made a presentation to its board earlier in the year and it agreed to provide funding of €14 million, which the Government matched with another €14 million. This is funding for the area-based childhood initiative, which is in areas of high need throughout the country. Fifty applications were received, which is indicative of the scale of need. The projects selected will be up and running in January providing services in local areas to parents and children in need of the types of supports which we know work and will ensure they are able to avail of opportunities in preschools and primary schools.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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In relation to the files now in the hands of the HSE from a variety of adoption agencies, religious institutions and so on, will the HSE or the child and family agency have governance over these files and with whom will adoptive people have to engage?

The Minister has responded to many of my questions, some of them in writing, for which I thank her. Regarding her reference in her responses to the three year corporate plan which she is preparing and hoping to present some time early in the New Year, while I welcome the support the Minister has secured from Atlantic Philanthropies for the area-based childhood initiative in respect of which Deputy McLellan has a great interest, this funding relates to 2014 to 2016 and is finite. As I understand it, this is once-off funding. Outlay in relation to not only the establishment but sustenance of the area-based childhood initiative will be required year on year. In terms of the three year corporate plan, this funding from Atlantic Philanthropies will not be available in three years time but the need will still exist. If we are doing our work, it will have expanded. Has account been taken of this? In saying this, I am being supportive because the Department will need additional resourcing to be able to better equip itself to meet the needs of children and young people across this land. The area-based childhood programme has proven itself to be hugely successful.

I wish the successful locations good luck, but 50 applications were made and I would say all of them are deserving. The bus is departing with regard to Atlantic Philanthropies and we need to plan and make the case now because additional moneys will be required.

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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I can only agree with the Deputy and I look forward to discussions with the committee. As Minister I will certainty be making this case, which is why I am very pleased to see references to children, families, early intervention and early years services in the medium-term economic strategy. We have a growing population of young people and there is no question that there are resource implications.

The message is very clear: early intervention works, saves money, makes children's lives better and means they can develop their potential. I believe very strongly that as a country and Government we must increase the focus on early intervention. I am very conscious, as is every Minister, of the resources available. Every Minister pushes his or her priorities and I will certainly not be slow in highlighting this need and working to have the appropriate budget so we can work with the group of 15% to 20% of children who need extra help if they are to do well as they get older. We will pick up the costs if we do not deal effectively with this cohort of young children; there is no question about that. Like everybody I must be cognisant of the economic situation.

We need to debate in society how much we want to do for those aged under five. Surprisingly, it has been a neglected group, given our talk about being a very child-centred country. We have not focused on services for those aged under five. All one has to do is consider maternity services at the very early stages. Very challenging work must be done to ensure we get the resources at an early enough stage. I will highlight this and will seek resources to ensure we can do the very best for this cohort of children. I also want a focus on early intervention because it is a cultural issue. Other countries are getting the message and we are beginning to see more and more focus on early years. I hope through the work I am doing as Minister we can get this cultural and societal focus on early years and put in the appropriate resources. As the economic situation improves this will become possible to a greater extent. The best way out of poverty is employment, which is why the Government is focusing on job creation, which will make a huge difference to families as they get access to employment. I take the Deputy's point on the ongoing work. I will ask the Secretary General, Mr. Breslin, to comment on the performance framework and the type of forward planning discussed by the Deputy.

Mr. Jim Breslin:

We have tried to approach the task from two levels. One is through the child and family agency, which will have operational responsibility for a huge number of services, and we must also get the strategic approach to the services correct. As the Bill has gone through the Houses, committee members will be familiar with all of the steps. It will start in the new year with the Minister's articulation of a performance framework in which she will set out what the Government considers to be the priorities over the coming three years. The agency and its board will develop a detailed corporate plan which will give a strategic perspective for the agency over the three years.

In her opening statement the Minister signalled that, given the mandate of the Department, we have been anxious to work at a level beyond this. Early next year we will complete the national children and young people policy framework, which will be about gathering all of the Departments at the same table to address in a more joined-up way issues presenting for children. We see this as a further opportunity to articulate the benefits of early intervention; to try to push this approach with the big Departments, which already have many resources in the field; and to build a case for where we should target further investment over the five-year strategy.

The Department was established in the teeth of recession in 2011 and we all hope that as we move through this period things will improve. The obligation on us at this stage is to put in place this type of collaborative process and structures and provide evidence on what can be achieved, so if investment is put in place it will be done in the right way and will be effective. If this work is not done processes will not change in order to try to make best use of available resources. We have been relatively successful in a very difficult situation with regard to resources and we can see this in area-based childhood, ABC, programme areas. Part of our thinking is to get ourselves organised effectively in collaboration with others so that in due course we can further build on it with additional resources.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister will have our full support in this endeavour. I ask her to address the issue of adopted people and the situation in future regarding the files.

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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It will be the child and family agency, and the Adoption Authority will continue to have a role to play.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister, the Secretary General, Mr. Lohan and Mr. Savage for attending the meeting this morning. I wish the Minister and her officials, committee members, the secretariat and those behind the glass window, whom we do not see too often, a very happy Christmas. I thank the staff for their great work during the year. It has been a very long year and I sincerely thank committee members present this morning for their constructive and very affirming involvement. It is fair to say that those here this morning park their party hats at the door and work on many issues concerning children and health. I include Deputy Kelleher, who is not present. I thank all members of the committee, who have had a very long year since early January, for their support and wish them and their families a very happy Christmas. Enjoy the break. It gives me great pleasure to state that we will adjourn until 14 January.

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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I return the compliment and thank the Chairman for his leadership of the committee.