Marcella Corcoran Kennedy (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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We will consider how to develop a plan to capture the full value of our genealogical heritage with our first group of witnesses. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I welcome the following witnesses to the meeting: from the Genealogical Society of Ireland - Mr. Michael Merrigan, general secretary, Mr Tom Conlon, director of Internet services, and Mr. Aiden Feerick, society member; from the Council of Irish Genealogical Organisations and the Association of Professional Genealogists in Ireland - Mr. Colm Cochrane, Mr. Steven Smyrl, Mr. Paddy Waldron, Ms Rose Sibbett and Mr. Rob Davison; on behalf of the Irish Family History Foundation, Ms Karel Kiely, secretary, Ms Nora O'Meara, financial controller, Mr. Fintan Mullen, board member, and an tUasal Seán Ó Súilleabháin, board member; Ms Kiely is also manager of rootsireland.ie and a County Kildare genealogist; Ms O'Meara is also a north Tipperary genealogist; Mr. Mullen is chief executive officer of the Ulster Historical Foundation and an tUasal Ó Súilleabháin is also the former County Leitrim librarian; also present is Mr. John Grenham, author and genealogist. I thank the witnesses for their attendance today. I propose to hear from the witnesses in the order that I have introduced them. Is that agreed? Agreed. The session will continue until 3.45 p.m. when we suspend. We will then resume at 4.15 p.m. with our second session. Is that agreed? Agreed.

By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. However, if they are directed by it to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against a person or an entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. I advise that any opening statement submitted to the committee may be published on its website after the meeting.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Before calling on the first witness I wish to make some comments. Genealogy has, in recent years, become a fascination for Irish people, as indeed for people worldwide. People want to know more about their forebears and their origins; where they come from and what was happening back then. While many people engage in genealogical research as a personal hobby there is a very important role for the professional genealogist in conducting research for others and in providing information in both hard copy form and also on the world wide web. The world wide web in particular has an important role to play in the study of genealogy, providing information, research facilities and databases to people across the globe. Mr. or Ms Murphy in Tasmania can research their great-great grandparent in Cork without leaving their home in Hobart. Genealogy has many different aspects to it catering for individuals and people with a common ancestry as, for example, the MacCarthy clan or people originating in a particular part of Ireland; for example a town, a townland or an offshore island community. There are also family history societies that facilitate members by sharing knowledge, indexing records, publishing journals and sponsoring conference and site visits. Given Ireland’s worldwide diaspora these developments can make an important contribution to enhancing our tourism sector and as an industry with major potential growth can contribute to creating employment in Ireland both in genealogical research and in encouraging people like the Murphys in Hobart to visit Ireland. I now call on Mr. Merrigan to address the committee.

Mr. Michael Merrigan:

As general secretary of the Genealogical Society of Ireland, I would like, on behalf of my board and on behalf of our members at home and overseas, to thank the Chairperson and the members of the Oireachtas joint committee for inviting the society to make a submission and to address this meeting. I would like to introduce my colleagues - to my left Tom Conlon, director of Internet services and Aiden Feerick, a member of the society.

For the information of the committee, while the society itself does not engage in commercial genealogical research assignments for individuals, Aiden Feerick is also a member of the Association of Professional Genealogists in Ireland, APGI, and a director of Ancestor Network Limited. It may be useful, in the interests of openness and transparency, that any person appearing before the committee for and on behalf of a voluntary genealogical organisation, declares if they are personally also members of APGI or engage in commercial genealogical research. The Irish genealogical community is relatively small and cross-membership among organisations is not uncommon.

On page 4 of the society's submission, we have included information on the society and its unique approach to these matters as it operates quite differently to other voluntary genealogical organisations in Ireland. The society has a long record stretching back over 23 years of campaigning on genealogical and heritage matters at local, national and international levels. Further clarification on our position is on page 5 of the submission. The society was established in 1990 to promote an awareness, appreciation and knowledge of our genealogical and heraldic heritage in Ireland and among her diaspora. The society is an independent not-for-profit voluntary heritage organisation with an Irish and international membership and it is an incorporated body in Ireland with charitable status. It is also a nominating body for Seanad Éireann.

The society is devoted to the promotion of the study of genealogy and related subjects as educational leisure pursuits available to all in the community irrespective of age, prior learning, background, ethnicity, nationality, sexual orientation or socioeconomic circumstances and we do so by organising two open meetings each month throughout the year, holding lectures, workshops, publishing genealogical material, group projects, exhibiting at major events and the provision of an archive and research centre, An Daonchartlann, at the Carlisle Pier in Dún Laoghaire.

The principle of public ownership and right of access to our genealogical heritage is the cornerstone of the society’s policies on heritage, genealogy and archival matters. The society is precluded from affiliating with any organisation or group failing to endorse this fundamental principle. Over the past 23 years, the society has encouraged the tabling of parliamentary questions in Dáil Éireann; raising matters on the Order of Business in Seanad Éireann; advocating amendments to Bills in both Houses; it has drafted Bills for presentation to Teachtaí Dála and Seanadóirí; made numerous submissions to State agencies, Departments and local government; and formulated and published detailed proposals on many heritage issues.

The society has always been to the fore in the development and promotion of genealogical and heraldic services in Ireland. Legislative reform has been a core objective of this endeavour and therefore, amendments were sought and secured in many pieces of legislation as outlined in the written submission. In addressing the issue, developing a plan to capture the full value of our genealogical heritage, it is easy to see the matter from a purely economic perspective relating specifically to tourism or as a straightforward archival access problem to be resolved by more State investment, increased staffing levels, improved technology and, of course, the hope of philanthropy. Capturing the full value of our genealogical heritage is as much an intriguing objective as it is a complex, multifaceted and, in some respects, a very contentious and ambitious endeavour involving many different stakeholders across a number of sectors including the State, commercial interests, voluntary organisations, institutional and private custodians of records and others.

As members can see from the submission, the Genealogical Society of Ireland has taken a holistic approach to this important national issue by assessing our genealogical heritage in its many and varied aspects including whether it is a product or a resource. This is an essential question as it impacts greatly on the manner in which other aspects of our genealogical heritage can be assessed in the context of the development of a plan as proposed. As members can see on page 2 of the submission, the society has considered each of the various areas it believes have a significant contribution to make to the promotion of an awareness, appreciation and knowledge of our genealogical heritage or to the further development of genealogy in education, scientific research, roots tourism and other important sectors. Given that individual members may have a particular interest in specific areas, each topic is explored in a separate chapter under the headings: Commercial Genealogy; Genetic Genealogy; Genealogy and Ethnic or Cultural Diversity - this chapter is important in view of the fact that this is International Human Rights Day and, in light of recent European Unions endeavours, it relates to the Traveller and Roma communities; Heraldry; Roots Tourism; Volunteerism; Philanthropy; and Legislation. Each chapter provides some background information on the area considered followed by the society’s recommendations.

The society’s recommendations - approximately 70 in all - cover public policy issues, Government or State agency actions, legislative proposals, product development, funding and the involvement of the genealogical community, both voluntary and commercial. The recommendations proffer suggestions for consideration in the formulation and implementation of a national policy on genealogy. While the society could have concentrated on the various archival resources that should be publicly accessible or in need of digitisation at our various repositories, we fully appreciate that, as legislators, the members of this committee must concentrate on those matters within the scope of legislation or public policy or on those areas for which the various line Ministers have responsibility. However, it is important to restate two points from the programme for Government which directly concern the matter at hand, namely:

We will promote genealogical tourism by updating the National Cultural Institutions Act in relation to the Genealogical office to put it on a proper statutory footing, modernise its operations and to enable publication of the 1926 census to stimulate genealogy tourism.
We will also explore philanthropic opportunities for the development of a national archives and genealogy quarter, providing easy access to archives and tapping into an area of cultural tourism which is of huge interest to the vast Irish Diaspora.

The recommendations in the society's submission present the committee with a set of comprehensive measures aimed at providing the framework for the development of a meaningful and structured consultative environment facilitating the formulation of specific objectives covering many aspects of our genealogical heritage. The recommendations envisage the establishment of a priority list of actions and consultations from which specific and targeted measures can be put in place to enable the formulation and implementation of a sustainable development plan. The society strongly believes that the formulation and development of a plan must be an inclusive, transparent and meaningful consultative process whereby all stakeholders will have an important contribution to make towards achieving the worthy objective of developing a plan to capture the full value of our genealogical heritage.

I should bring the committee's attention to the fact that there are some typographical errors in the text of the submission on pages 14, 15 and 26. References to chapter 14 in the text on these pages should read chapter 16. Mea culpa.

Marcella Corcoran Kennedy (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. Merrigan for his opening statement. I welcome the representatives from Association of Professional Genealogists of Ireland, Ms Nicola Morris, Ms Máire Mac Conghail and Ms Helen Kelly. I invite them to make their opening statement.

Ms Máire Mac Conghail:

The Association of Professional Genealogists in Ireland, the APGI, was founded in 1986. It acts as an accrediting and regulating body to maintain high standards among its members and to protect the interests of clients. Our members are drawn from every part of Ireland and represent a wide variety of interests and expertise. The ongoing involvement of individual members in lecturing, teaching and publishing maintains our position at the forefront of genealogical developments in Ireland. For more than two decades the field of ancestral research in Ireland has benefited greatly from the APGI's influence and lobbying. Beyond its functions as an accrediting and regulating body, it has made a very positive contribution to many areas of development, championing the cause of record users with State-run offices and the Irish Genealogical Project, subsequently Irish Genealogy Limited.

In respect of the Joint Committee on the Environment, Culture and the Gaeltacht's request for submissions, we wish to raise the following three pivotal issues as examples of how finding workable solutions would greatly assist in developing such a plan as outlined by the Committee. The issues in question are: the website of the Department of Arts Heritage and the Gaeltacht, www.irishgenealogy.ie; the 1926 census; and the General Register Office of Ireland. To the fore in developing a plan to capture the full value of our genealogical heritage is for increased support to be given to the genealogy website – www.irishgenealogy.ie - of the Department of Arts Heritage and the Gaeltacht. The website, which is a work in progress, gives access, free of charge, to, for example, original images of parish church records – a primary source – and this, in turn, gives the website credence and authority. An annual dependable grant-in-aid would allow consistent forward planning with regard to content and facilitate the consistent monitoring of content and management of the website. The APGI - the only accrediting body for genealogists in Ireland – commends the Department in adopting the ethos and vision of the majority of our national cultural institutions by making accessible, free of charge, primary source material relating to our history and heritage. However, the Department needs financial and personnel investment to ensure the reliability and the ongoing development of the website and its content, CIGO

On the 1926 census, the APGI, particularly through its connection with the Council of Irish Genealogical Organisations, the CIGO, lobbied for many years to convince those in authority that census returns could be opened before the 100-year embargo first introduced in the Statistics Act 1993. Prior to the passing of the 1993 Act, the subsequently repealed Statistics Act 1926 provided no clear guidance regarding public access to census returns compiled post-Independence. The returns for 1901 and 1911 had been released by a warrant, signed under the Public Records (Ireland) Act 1867, in 1961. In the case of the 1911 census, this was only 50 years after the data was compiled. The sky did not subsequently fall in. When what became the Statistics Act 1993 was debated by the Houses in 1993, lobbying by the CIGO - spearheaded by its then general secretary, Mr. Michael Merrigan - succeeded in reducing the then proposed 100-year embargo to only 70 years. However, the Central Statistics Office did not support this measure and the 100-year bar was reinstated.

Numerous groups have continued to lobby since 1993 to allow early access to the 1926 census as a special case. In the months before the most recent general election, approaches were made to the current Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht, Deputy Deenihan, putting the case to him for inclusion of the proposal in the new programme for Government if, as seemed likely, Fine Gael and Labour were to form the next Administration.

The Minister agreed and saw the value of the arguments made. Since taking up the portfolio of Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht he has consistently promoted the statement in the programme for Government that the 1926 census returns should be released early. This was particularly the case when he was interviewed by The Irish Timesin April 2011 during a reception to mark the 75th anniversary of the founding of the Irish Genealogical Research Society. Despite the commitment given in the programme for Government, the Central Statistics Office has consistently refused to engage and has advised the Department of the Taoiseach against amending the Statistics Act 1993. In the meantime, the Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht has formed a working committee with the task of establishing what needs to be done to conserve, catalogue and prepare the physical records in advance of their release, which cannot be later than January 2027.

Representations were made to the Central Statistics Office in 2009 by Mr. Paul Gorry, a council member of the APGI, who requested data from the 1926 census about his deceased father under section 33 of the Statistics Act 1993. The CSO conceded in its reply that, “While the release of census information in respect of named individuals to their next-of-kin is allowable by law, the practical arrangements involved are significant and effectively preclude us from doing so". The APGI understands rudimentary finding aids have been compiled on the 1926 census returns held by the National Archives of Ireland. They would enable some searching to be undertaken in order to locate particular household returns.

One of the concerns raised by the Central Statistics Office was related to the privacy of data relating to persons born less than 100 years ago. We are aware that the Council of Irish Genealogical Organisations, CIGO, raised the issue with the Minister and made the helpful suggestion that if the privacy issue should become a sticking point with the CSO, a compromise might be to allow the temporary redaction of data for those born less than 100 years ago and who might be still living. The APGI supports the suggestion as a sensible compromise.

The third issue relates to the General Register Office. Its public search room holds all of Ireland’s civil records of births, deaths and marriages from 1845 to 1921 and for the Republic from 1922 onwards. Until recently the office was housed in premises well suited for public access and utility at the Irish Life Centre on Lower Abbey Street. The downturn in the economy necessitated a move to a State-owned building - the former labour exchange on Werburgh Street. However, publicity surrounding the move has not been favourable. The APGI concurs with our colleague, Mr. John Grenham, that among research facilities, the General Rgister Office should be a flagship facility, as is the case with the General Register Office of Northern Ireland in Belfast which last year received the CIGO’s prestigious award for excellence in genealogy. Unfortunately, that is not the case following the move of the General Register Office to Werburgh Street. It flies in the face of what the Minister is trying to achieve in the area of heritage. The Werburgh Street building, particularly the surrounds, urgently need a serious facelift.

By contrast, the APGI enthusiastically welcomed the recent announcement by the Minister that, through an amendment to the Civil Registration Act 2004, the Department’s website willshortly host the General Register Office’s generated computerised indexes to civil records. The departmental initiative should be extended to include the following sources on the Irish genealogy website: indices covering births, marriages and deaths of those born in Ireland who served abroad with the British army following the Act of 1879; indices for marine registers of births and deaths extant from 1864; indices covering people born in Ireland and who died abroad from 1864, generally known as the British Council of Births and Deaths; indices covering Irish people who died during the South African War from 1898 to 1902, otherwise knows as the Boer War; indices covering the deaths of those who served in the British army during the First World War from 1914 to 1918; the register and general index covering several thousand marriages and some baptisms performed in Dublin between 1806 and 1837 by the unlicensed clergymen Rev. Schulze. These indices currently held in Roscommon are not available for consultation at the General Register Office's research facility in Dublin which for the researcher makes for incomplete or inconclusive research. The APGI makes the case for all of the foregoing indices to be digitised and made available on the Department’s website.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Marcela Corcoran Kennedy):

I thank Ms Mac Conghail for her presentation and call on Ms Kiely to address the committee.

Ms Karel Kiely:

I thank the joint committee for giving me the opportunity to make a presentation. I am the secretary of the Irish Family History Foundation and the genealogist for County Kildare. I am joined by my colleagues, Ms Nora O’Meara, North Tipperary Genealogy Service; Mr. Fintan Mullen, Ulster Historical Foundation, and Seán Ó Súilleabháin, Leitrim Genealogy Service.

The Irish Family History Foundation has 33 county genealogy centres on the island of Ireland. We began computerising parish records in each county in the late 1980s and have provided research services for over 25 years or more in some cases. The majority of the county centres were formally set up circa 1991 under the direction of Mr. Paddy Teahon, Department of the Taoiseach, with the aim of computerising all of the genealogical records pertaining to each county, including church, civil, census, gravestone and land records, while providing local employment and training opportunities. We operate with paid staff and volunteers. Some 14 centres facilitate various training and employment schemes.

The foundation is a not-for-profit company and completely self-financing, paying VAT and corporation tax. The county centres provide local employment and financially support other local services such as heritage centres. They are a focal point for tourists in the respective counties and, in many cases, are the only contact point for visitors in the off-season. Local researchers can pinpoint the exact area from where someone’s ancestors came and help him or her to locate relatives still living in the area. The service is free of charge and only available in a county with a genealogy centre.

We have provided extensive background details on the foundation and its member centres in the written submission. I would like to address the main topic before the committee through the following questions: how can or should genealogical and related services be resourced and funded? The network of local centres and the highly successful website would not be available if we did not charge a fee. In turn, as a not-for-profit organisation, the vast majority of revenue goes straight back to the local centres. We use the balance to add further records to the site and develop and promote services and for the administration and management of the website. In over 25 years we have yet to encounter a credible suggestion for alternative funding. There seems no reasonable alternative to develop and manage the website. It is a statement of fact that charging for this information online is international best practice.

The provision of the 1901 and 1911 Irish census returns online has proved successful. That is not surprising, as the data are provided at no charge to the end user. What may not be appreciated is that a small charge could generate millions in income for the National Archives of Ireland and the State, as it has done for the national archives in the United Kingdom and the USA. Another State body, the General Register Office, has no plans to make the State’s computerised records of births, marriages and deaths available free of charge to the public. The argument in support of the free availability of records is that it will promote or encourage tourism. However, there is no necessary connection between providing a free service and tourism promotion. We request that further developments in this area be carefully examined. A common approach between local centres and national institutions would benefit a country that sells the personal experience to tourists as being paramount. The causal connection between free online access for family histories and tourism inflow has not been demonstrated.

Let me pose a second question which is an interesting one. Who derives value from our services? We have over 1.2 million visitors a year to our website and over 560,000 registered users, the majority of whom are from outside the State. The data are accessed by two groups: professional genealogists or researchers and amateur family historians. In the case of the former, it is reasonable to charge fees in order to provide them with structured access to what is a key input to their professional revenues.

The second group is more interesting. Our site provides them with access to one of the key sources for Irish family history research, parish records, on an all-Ireland database. This unique and invaluable resource was created in each county and it enables the user, with a few clicks of a mouse, to locate records even if they have limited information or no known county of origin. The fees charged are nominal and our customer surveys show that they are generally understanding of our need to be able to fund the provision of our services. Tracing family history is not easy or straightforward, and researchers expect assistance. Our online service is supported by an advisory service in each county and via a centralised customer service system where users can avail of free advice and help from locally based experts.

There is no evidence that our operating structure in any way, shape or form holds back the wider development of genealogy in Ireland and the derivation of value from it. With regard to maximising the value of our genealogical heritage, the IFHF hopes that a way forward can be found whereby the local county genealogy centres and national institutions can work together within the existing and self-funding common platform. This would offer overseas users and visitors to Ireland a unique blend of a local and national experience.

To finish, I will give the committee a more tangible example of the potential there is to leverage our existing structures and institutions in order to create value and benefits for the whole island of Ireland. We recently hosted two Facebook question-and-answer sessions in conjunction with Tourism Ireland which were highly successful. The success of this prompted us to co-sponsor a competition to win a trip to Ireland over the new year, and to offer credits to access our database to the runners-up. We emailed more than 250,000 of our subscribers overseas, and more than 20,000 globally entered the online competition. These activities have resulted in the growth of Tourism Ireland's Ireland Family History page from 53,000 likes to over 186,000. The co-operation between us achieved exactly the kind of result that could be replicated and leveraged across all of our county centres and national institutions, creating a vibrant, well-resourced community to ensure we capture the full value of our genealogical heritage both immediately and in the future.

My colleague Mr. Fintan Mullen from the Ulster Historical Foundation, which is one of the oldest and most successful genealogical organisations in Ireland, will add a few words.

Mr. Fintan Mullen:

In addressing ourselves to the issue of capturing the full value of our genealogical heritage, we would make the point that an all-island approach is vital, and this has been the case with the Irish Family History Foundation.

To give a bit of background, there are four centres in Northern Ireland. They are embedded in the archives and institutions and the heritage sector there. The Ulster Historical Foundation, UHF, grew out of the Public Record Office of Northern Ireland; Derry Genealogy is part of Derry City and Archives Service; Armagh Ancestry is linked directly with Armagh City Council; and Irish World has a broad reach not only within Northern Ireland but across the world. We are embedded within the heritage scene. All of the centres were centrally involved in the development of the Irish Family History Foundation and in the rootsireland.ie database. The four centres were some of the first to join it. The Ulster Historical Foundation pioneered the prototype system and Armagh Ancestry piloted the first phase of the development of the rootsireland.ie database, and it is fair to say that all-island co-operation was crucial in the development of what is now equivalent to a national service.

Historically, the North has always been centrally involved. For example, two of those involved, if I might name them, were Sir Robert Kidd, the ex-head of Northern Ireland's civil service, and Mr. Paddy Doherty of Derry Inner City Trust. In terms of our ongoing co-operation with the bodies, archives, etc., in Northern Ireland which are vital to the success of the genealogical heritage enterprise, UHF works regularly with the Public Record Office, Derry City Archives and the Cardinal Tomás Ó Fiaich Library and Archive, which are the three main archival institutions in Northern Ireland. That is merely a small example of how the cross-Border co-operation is essential if we are to maximise the full value of our genealogical heritage.

Marcella Corcoran Kennedy (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I thank both witnesses for their opening statements. I call on Mr. Grenham to address the committee.

Mr. John Grenham:

I am here as an author, a columnist with The Irish Times and the author of Tracing Your Irish Ancestors. I might seem to be a little lonely here on my own but, in fact, I am a member of the Association of Professional Genealogists, a member of the Genealogical Society of Ireland and a big source of profit for the Irish Family History Foundation, rootsireland.ie.

My focus will be on the researcher, the person who is trying to find his or her ancestors, particularly coming from abroad. The relationship between Ireland and its diaspora is utterly unique and this is not appreciated nearly enough in Ireland itself. If one thinks of worldwide figures, only Germany has more people of German origin outside the country than inside. In the case of Germany, there are 150 million persons of German origin outside Germany but there are 90 million Germans. Then one looks at Ireland where there are 80 million persons of Irish origin outside Ireland but there are only 6.5 million of us still here. The disproportion is extraordinary and it does not exist anywhere else on the planet. If one thinks of it, Ireland today has the population of Rio de Janeiro and the Irish outside Ireland would number those in New York, London, Hong Kong, Beijing and Shanghai all rolled together and then some. We have a unique relationship with the Irish outside Ireland and that uniqueness places an obligation on us, particularly in genealogy, to make it as easy as possible for these people to find their ancestors and to find their way back home.

It is also the reason that genealogy in Ireland cannot be as simple a business as it might be elsewhere. In other words, purely commercial imperatives cannot dictate how genealogy works in Ireland. We have a duty to make it as simple, low-cost and widely available as possible.

Of course, there are economic benefits and people will point them up readily. In my experience, the two Holy Grails for people doing genealogical research are to find the place from which their ancestors left, to actually stand in the field up to their ankles in mud, and to meet any surviving extended family.

The tourism benefits are self-evident. It always has been big difficulty in dealing with public bodies to make a business case to state that if one spends €1,000 on improving genealogical research services here, so many extra visitors will come. There may be times when common sense is more important than a watertight business case. It is common sense - it is as clear as the nose on one's face - that if one makes it easier for people to find out where they came from, more of them will come back. It is as simple as that.

Rather than talk about the great plethora of sources that I would love to see digitised and online, I will focus on the four main sources that everybody doing research on Irish records will have to go through at some point or other. These are the two 19th century land tax surveys, Griffith's Valuation and the Tithe Applotment Books, the 1901 and 1911 census returns, the State records of births, marriages and deaths from 1864, and the church records. The first two of those four - the land tax records and the 1901 and 1911 Census returns - are already online. In particular, the census returns were a revelation to many not involved in genealogy of just how powerful digitisation could be. The other two are more problematic. The General Register Office records are, as my colleague, Ms Máire Mac Conghail, pointed out, coming online in bits and pieces. The standard in general register offices in Australia, Scotland and Northern Ireland is to have these records fully searchable - for births, up to 100 years old; for marriages; up to 70 years old; and for deaths, up to 50 years old. The General Register Office of Northern Ireland is about to do this for the records under its control, which include many areas that are now in the Republic. We will have a situation in which those in east Donegal or north Louth will be able to search for their family history on the website of the General Register Office of Northern Ireland but will have to come in person, sit in front of an index register and work their way through a Victorian indexing system to do research in the South. It is not as if there is a great deal of money required to digitise these records.

The General Register Office already has a full digital copy of everything behind the counter, but it is not available to the public. The obstacle is legal. The Registrar General interprets the law to mean that he cannot make the records available except via the index system that exists. He is probably right. Northern Ireland had to pass a law, with the Queen's assent, to allow it to do what it is about to do. Something must be done about this major source.

The last source is church records. As the Irish Family History Foundation has pointed out, there is a huge database of church records, but it is incomplete. The website irishgenealogy.iehas a large database which is also incomplete. The National Library has digital images of all parish registers up to 1880, but not online. It is surely not beyond the wit of the administrators of this country to bring those three bodies together to create a resource that is up to date and provides record images and database searches. It need not be free. It could be paid for in some form or other by the end user, but it must be done and it must be available.

Marcella Corcoran Kennedy (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses for their statements.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Independent)
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I thank the witnesses. I must declare a conflict of interest, not in this section but in one of the other sections. It is in respect of Eneclann, which will appear before the committee. I have shares and I must declare that as a conflict of interest so that we do not run into difficulties later.

I probably must declare another interest because I have a passion about this subject. I have nearly gone blind reading microfilm, microfiche and paper records. I value the development of being able to research things online. Having done it the hard way, one appreciates being able to do it through a more modern arrangement. I have spent time in many of the repositories, including some of those in Northern Ireland. I have not had a chance to spend much time in the new Public Record Office of Northern Ireland offices, but I did spend time in the old office on the Lisburn Road. The idea of an all-Ireland facility should be a given.

Mr. John Grenham made a point about the law. Can he direct us to the law that was changed in respect of what was done in the UK so that we can get over this rule? I presume he would say it was a game-changer to have the GRO records themselves, as opposed to the indexes.

My next question is probably a very political one, and the witnesses are free to respond as they wish, but why is it that the Irish Family History Foundation and irishgenealogy.ie have fairly comprehensive church records, and why can the set of records not be complete? It is fine if one knows where to find them, but there is a difficulty for somebody who does not realise how fragmented that set of records is. Perhaps the witnesses would address that issue. I would look at this from the same perspective as John Grenham - that is, as somebody who is trying to use the records. That is the focus we should have on this.

With regard to Mr. Michael Merrigan's presentation, the principle of records being in public ownership with a right to access is a good one. In his view, does that preclude charging for records? What is his view on that? Karel Kiely made the point about not being able to run the service without the income, which obviously goes back into the service. What is his response to that? This will obviously be a pivotal issue.

I totally agree with the point, which cannot be said loudly enough, about the move to Werburgh Street and the appalling building that has been provided. The idea of a flagship building is something on which I hope this committee will comment. If this is the first introduction for the visitor, it creates a very bad impression. We are not simply discussing tourists from abroad. I found the place where my family came from and I return to those places; I buy books and spend money there. The opportunities do not just relate to tourists. There are other things that one might not consider to be valuable in this whole area, but if we select the topic carefully, so that it is not put exclusively into an economic arena, there is a value beyond the economic as well which would be appreciated.

Mr. John Grenham:

I can certainly supply the committee with the reference to the UK Bill. The General Register Office is now under the authority of the Department of Social Protection, and two social protection Bills are introduced every year. I have suggested repeatedly to the Department that two lines in one of those Bills would be enough to change the civil registration to give authority to the Minister to allow access under conditions specified by the Minister. That would be the end of the legal obstacle. I will forward the legislative example from the UK to the committee.

Ms Karel Kiely:

The website rootsireland.ie has a large amount of data and the Department has a website with more data. We supplied a map in the submission to the committee. The majority of the 32 Irish counties are on rootsireland.ie. We will be adding a great deal more data in 2014. The Department's site covers part of Dublin and parts of Cork and Kerry. We would obviously welcome one website, but we have the majority of the records on our site. Some of what we do not have is due to churches not giving us access. In my case, in Celbridge, County Kildare, I was never allowed to take the parish registers. That was always a consideration for us. Unless the parishes were willing we could not take the registers from them. John Grenham said earlier that the Department and the Irish Family History Foundation were the main players. The churches, too, have ownership over their records and what happens to those records. They should be consulted and the records should be made available on their terms as well. That has been a problem in some counties, where things were done against the wishes of the churches, especially the Catholic Church. Parishes feel strong ownership of their records and what happens to those records. They are the records of local people in that county, and that is a very strong connection that should be maintained.

Of course we would welcome partnership. We have always engaged with the Department when we have been asked to make suggestions, and we have made suggestions about how things could move forward. We would love to have all the parish records on one website, certainly as a starting point.

Mr. Michael Merrigan:

With regard to the GRO, our society's view from 1997 was that there should be an amendment to the Act to allow for the concept of historical records, as Mr. Grenham said.

That was actually supported at the time by the then Minister, Síle de Valera, but, unfortunately, matters did not progress. The issue of security always seems to come up in regard to these particular records - the misuse of the GRO records. One of our members came up with an idea which could be looked at. Certificates obtained for research purposes would be stamped "Purely for research purposes," which would get over that particular problem.

My colleagues will speak about the pay-per-view sites, the free sites and how we deal with that on our own website, but I will come back to Deputy Murphy's point on the principle of public ownership and right of access. This is a cornerstone principle which we believe should be in legislation and in public policy. It is well understood that records have to be digitised and there is a cost there, and the recovery cost is fine. That is perfectly understandable, but we thought that a cornerstone of the State's policy in respect of genealogical records within the State, whether held in private or public hands, should be the principle of public ownership and right of access to the heritage. The register is owned by the church and various databases are owned by particular organisations, but access to that heritage should be based on the principle of public ownership and right of access. It does not preclude selling access to my colleagues' databases. We have a particular view, as I am sure my colleagues know, and would favour the relationship they have in Northern Ireland with heritage centres rather than the current one, because we look at it in three ways - from the point of view of the security of data, the security and viability of the centres themselves and the security of the employment they provide. Our proposals suggests they should be incorporated within the public library sector, on a par with what they have in Northern Ireland or very near to it. One of our issues is that the security of legal ownership of the database would be defined by that process. I will hand over to my colleague, Mr. Tom Conlon, on how we deal with access to the website, etc.

Mr. Tom Conlon:

Our website is familyhistory.ie. Any records we have are free on that. We believe in the principle of free access. In respect of records that have a monetary value - that is, that have the potential to create revenue - we have a concern that the legal ownership of those should be very clear in the event of something happening. Should they fall into private hands or whatever, we want to be very sure that such records would continue to be public records at all times.

Mr. Seán Ó Súilleabháin:

I was the county librarian in County Leitrim for 30 years, so my background is in libraries. In libraries generally, one is aiming for free access as far as possible. That has not really been possible in the case of genealogy services. There is a huge cost to getting the records digitised and computerised, but fortunately, through the good use of FÁS schemes, we have got to where are. Even at that, to continue to provide the service and to provide the centres will not be possible without some charge - a modest one, we hope. Many of the centres are supported by the local authorities. In Leitrim the county council gives us a substantial subvention every year, and it is the same in many other counties. It is an accumulation of the money one takes in from charges, a subsidy from the county council and a lot of voluntary effort. If it had to be paid for otherwise, it would cost a huge amount of money. I think most people are prepared to pay a modest charge for it.

The whole purpose of this is tourism. It could be Irish tourists as well as Americans and those of other nationalities. As Mr. Grenham said, the crucial thing for the tourist is to find the house and the place. Some of the sources talked about today, while they are useful in their own right, will not necessarily do that. We would all like to see the 1926 census, but it of marginal importance in terms of finding places. When one knows where one is from, then one looks at the census.

The birth, marriage and death records - civil and church records - are the critical ones. The whole thing will not be complete until all of the church and civil records are computerised and digitised for the whole country. As it is at the moment, the most important source is rootsireland.ie, the Irish Family History Foundation, because it has about 80% of the church records. A considerable number of civil records are already fully indexed in some counties. As of now, it is the only show in town.

If one is an American who wants to find the place of one's ancestors, rootsireland.ie is the primary site. The other things are useful and important but it is the crucial one. The most important thing is to get the rest of this done. A lot of our centres are doing that with the benefit of the bit of money they are getting from being online. When it is all done, we will need to have it all together. Somebody mentioned that although most of the 32 counties are on our site, County Kerry, Dublin city and part of Cork are not. There needs to be a means of getting that together. As I said, 75% or 80% of it is on the Irish Family History Foundation site already. There are the portions not done in those counties and then there are the counties not on it which are on the Department's site. I would like to see more co-operation with the Department to get that together as well as with the other stakeholders to decide how that will be done. We all want to get to a point at which all of those crucial church and State records - birth, marriage and death records principally - are all computerised and digitised and available in some fashion. I hope we will have more discussion with the Department. We have had some over the years but there needs to be intense negotiations as soon as possible to bring that to a conclusion. As of now, the Irish Family History Foundation is providing a tremendous resource at a very minimal cost and it is still totally reliant on the centres and voluntary effort.

Ms Máire Mac Conghail:

We all use the rootsireland.ie website. It is very good and very often it brings one down to 1900. One has to remember that they are transcriptions and from the researcher's point of view, one has to see the original to carry through the research. That is the difference between rootsireland.ie and the Department's website. The Department's website, which is a work in progress, certainly is not as expansive county-wise. However, its policy is to match up the transcription to the image so that, literally from the computer table, one can feel confident that what one has retrieved is the original record.

Mr. John Grenham:

That is now the archival standard. It is common or garden. With any records going online anywhere in the world, one has a transcription and an image. In other words, one does not trust what somebody says is there; one can look and see for one's self.

Labhrás Ó Murchú (Fianna Fail)
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I dtosach, is mian liom fáilte a chur roimh na finnéithe atá anseo inniu. I declare an interest in that I am the chairman of the Irish Family History Foundation. I compliment Mr. Michael Merrigan. I do not know a lot about him but he has been a great source of information. We should go a step further and say he has been a great source of motivation as well. I was very pleased to sponsor the Bill on the 1926 census and it was thanks to him that it was possible.

Unfortunately, given the way the whip system works, we saw the outcome even though everybody favoured it. There must be a lesson in that for us here in respect of the bigger picture which we are discussing today and how we might go forward.

The speakers mentioned the consultative process, which is probably the basis of what we must look at here. The speakers might have some ideas on that. It strikes me that a very fine element of a consultative process is taking place here today in a very disciplined manner with everybody getting an opportunity to have an input. With the other witnesses who are due as well, I would like to think that whatever report comes from these hearings, it will be one element in the next set of steps we must take. Perhaps this committee could continue to form part of and lead that consultative process. Each person here today has made reference to the agreement that we should all work together and that is exactly what we should be doing. I do not think we would be thanked for not doing so. We must be seen to be working together. While respecting the autonomy and existence of each group, there are so many players, many of whom will not be participating at all in these sessions so they are all there. If Mr. Merrigan gets a chance to respond, he might tell us if he has thought a consultative process through, the extent to which the Department should play a role or whether this committee should play a role.

In respect of a point made by Mr. Mullen, we have all been looking at North-South co-operation over the years. We have not really got a great CV with regard to that generally. It is certainly there in respect of the Irish Family History Foundation and genealogy and some of the personalities which have been mentioned by Mr. Mullen come from both sides of the divide. I do not use that term in a derogatory sense. For that reason, there is some message. Could Mr. Mullen tell me if there is any resistance to that type of direct co-operation and are there any lessons to be learned as we have a consultative process in the future? Ms O'Meara comes from my county even though it is north Tipperary - we will only have one shortly. Again, there are messages there about the linking of genealogy as she and others are doing in the area. The centre is part of the built heritage. Does Ms O'Meara find that the local authority is forthcoming? It is just that it is happening or is there active participation?

Marcella Corcoran Kennedy (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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Did Deputy Tuffy indicate that she would like to speak?

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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I take a great interest in this. I have been a member of the Irish Genealogical Society although I am not as active as I would like to be. One thing that is important is the provision of as much free information for people as possible because it is a deterrent if people realise that they must give Visa card details to access information online. From the perspective of schools and education, it is much better that there are much free sources as ever.

I am a member of the Oireachtas Committee on Education and Social Protection and one of the issues we are looking at is the youth guarantee, which is to be implemented in the new year. The idea is that money will be put into training and work experience opportunities for young people under the age of 26. One area where there could be many opportunities for young people would be research under the heading of genealogical information. Perhaps some of that is already going on. If so, could any of the witnesses who are aware of it elaborate on it? Does anyone on the panel see opportunities there? If some of the funding from the youth guarantee could be directed towards organisations in which they are involved or at local authority level, it would be a great opportunity for young people because it involves research, administration and finding out about our history and heritage. It would be a great experience for a young person to have on their CV and would also be a great learning experience.

Sandra McLellan (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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I am not a member of this committee but I welcome the presentations, which were very informative. It is something in which many people have a general interest. I note that several submissions note the quality of the General Register Office for Northern Ireland's recent digitisation projects. What aspects of those projects do the speakers believe can be replicated?

The speakers said that the General Register Office's new facilities are less than ideal. Do they think they can be brought up to scratch? What needs to be done to bring them up to scratch? I note that while it is a very valuable resource of researchers, the Irish Genealogy website has a number of omissions, which speakers noted in their presentations - births and deaths, British consular birth and death records, Boer War and Word War I deaths. Do the speakers believe they should be moved from Roscommon or it is merely the case that they should be available online?

Marcella Corcoran Kennedy (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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Who would like to answer first?

Mr. Michael Merrigan:

First of all, I thank Senator Ó Murchú for his kind words. His support down through the years with the Bills has been very much appreciated by our members. We could say we are almost there. A very good consultative process was begun in 1998. It came out of a suggestion we made during the passing of the National Cultural Institutions Act through Seanad Éireann. We were working very closely with Senator Paschal Mooney. Having got nearly 28 amendments there, one suggestion we had was that we need to know what we are talking about regarding what our genealogical heritage is. What is the scope of this? The Minister at the time, Michael D. Higgins, agreed to this suggestion. There was a change of Government following the election and his successor, Síle de Valera, initiated the study in 1998. That produced a very interesting and comprehensive interim report. That interim report could have formed the basis for a draft policy and plan for genealogy in Ireland. Unfortunately, when the final report came, they chose one particular suggestion within the consultative process. Unfortunately, that was not what the Minister had asked for so that consultative process ended. What I am suggesting is that the basis for the interim document of 1998 could be looked at again. If we want to capture the full value of our genealogical research, we must first understand what it is. We proposed within our document a national inventory of genealogical records or records of genealogical potential. These are records that may not be formed for a genealogical purpose but which have genealogical potential. All genealogists are quite aware of that. The maximum amount comes from archaeology. A grave yield site next to a known archaeological site is one of archaeological potential. That consultative process that took place in 1998 by the Heritage Council was very open and inclusive. I suggest that the committee with the possible aid of the Heritage Council build on what was done in the interim report from 1998 and see where things have changed.

What is our genealogical heritage and what is genealogy? I will bring my colleague in on that in a moment. That must be looked at because if we can get that clear, we can all work together and say this is what we are talking about. Regarding the youth guarantee, I agree that there are many opportunities there. While we are getting an update on that interim report - in other words, doing the scoping exercise - there could be positions there.

There are issues there that could be looked at. There is employment potential within the process but, at the end of the day, we need a national plan and policy. All of us, even through we are coming at this in many different ways, we can work towards that. However, we must work towards it on the basis that it is a national endeavour.

Genealogy is the only resource that can initiate, engage and successfully maintain a connection with our diaspora to create an affinity with Ireland through the promotion of an awareness, appreciation and knowledge of a shared ancestral heritage by providing free public access. If an affinity is created, an individual might not only look at this to source his or her family history but he or she might buy Irish products or, at another level, he or she might invest. We have to maintain and sustain an affinity with Ireland and build on it and that can be done even with a pay-per-view model.

Mr. Aidan Feerick:

The definition of genealogy is complex and it will require a great deal of discussion. It could be described as the study of the descent of a person from a common ancestor and the enumeration of the ancestors and descendants of that person or family in the natural order of succession. That seems a mouthful but it is intended to give an idea of what we do when we are asked to investigate the person's pedigree, lineage or heritage. That can lead to 100 other questions.

Mr. Nora O'Meara:

I have been a genealogist in the North Tipperary Genealogy Centre under the auspices of North Tipperary County Council for the past 26 years, which is a long time, and the centre is an integral part of rural tourism in the country. Tipperary has not experienced as much emigration as the west. However, our centre attracts a significant number of tourists to our county. Up to 6,000 people had used our online service up to November this year, of whom 893 travelled from abroad and visited my office. That does not include domestic visitors. That means a significant number of people have visited Nenagh. We charge a small fee for the genealogy service we provide while they spend a great deal of money in the local economy. We are a tourist point for the county when the tourist office is closed .

Deputy Tuffy asked about education. I have run several genealogy classes with the VEC for adult learners and primary school children. The children visit us as part of their curriculum to trace their ancestors and we provide that service free of charge to them. The centre also works with several MA programmes in the University of Limerick to provide a free service of lectures for students who visit us. We are also an important source for local historians who are writing parish histories and, again, that service is free.

Mr. Fintan Mullen:

Senator Ó Murchú asked whether there was any resistance to North-South co-operation. It is pleasing that there is a positive attitude towards co-operation, North and South. As the Senator noted, however, people have not always been able to think what the initial co-operation would entail and are sometimes left scratching their heads. We have found from our work with North-South bodies, such as Foras na Gaeilge and the Ulster Scots Agency, that they see family histories as an easy win when they are otherwise dealing with contentious issues. I recently joined the round table of the community relations council and the Heritage Lottery Foundation on the decade of commemorations. This is an emotive and sensitive issue in the North and people are keen to take these easy opportunities. Family history has proven to be an easy win because we can approach these historical subjects at the micro level of who, when and where. We have working on a project with Foras na Gaeilge and the Ulster Scots Agency to investigate aspects of the Ulster plantation and the various migrant communities in Ulster alongside those who were already there. There is great potential for developing closer working relationships and exploring educational opportunities.

With regard to digitisation, the Irish Family History Foundation has no objection in principle to posting images of original records online. Much of the data we hold were captured in an era when the technology was not as far advanced as it is now. We always want to work with the permission of the churches, which is not to say others who have digitised records did not have permission. As a body working at an all-Ireland level we have always been careful to bring the churches with us.

I am not entirely certain that the four centres in Northern Ireland are supported through the library network. The Ulster Historical Foundation is a completely self-sustaining body. We do not receive public moneys in support of our work.

Mr. Seán Ó Súilleabháin:

I agree with Mr. Merrigan that we need an overall plan to avoid duplication of our efforts. There have been cases of duplication, although fortunately not to any great extent. Deputy Tuffy asked about the use of schemes. We have gotten as far as we have largely through the use of schemes and we have participated in all the new schemes, such as Tús and the rural social schemes. The judicious use of schemes allows us to achieve a considerable amount. Certain work is done abroad, somewhat unfortunately given that we would prefer to have it done here. Cost is a factor in such decisions because it can be much cheaper to have the work done abroad. Many things are desirable, including the issue of the images to which Mr. Mullen referred, but the priority should be completing of church and civil records for the entire 32 counties. It would be lovely to see the images - and that will probably happen anyway - but the records are not complete for a number of counties. There are also two separate sites, with the Irish Family History Foundation covering the larger part of the country. It should be a priority to make all of these critical records accessible from one site.

Marcella Corcoran Kennedy (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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As I am conscious that our next session will commence shortly, I ask Senator Mac Conghail to ask a brief question and for the witnesses to be brief in their responses.

Fiach MacConghail (Independent)
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In fairness, it is not our fault. We are called to a vote in the Seanad. We have heard four different presentations, from the Association of Professional Genealogists in Ireland, the Irish Family History Foundation, the Genealogical Society of Ireland and Mr. John Grenham, respectively.

To pick up on Mr. Merrigan's point on conflicts of interest and potential confusion, it seems some or all of the witnesses are linked in one way or another on a prima faciebasis and I seek clarification on this. Are all the members of the Genealogical Society of Ireland also members of the Association of Professional Genealogists in Ireland, the APGI? It would be important for the committee to have clarification on this. I do not have a profession conflict of interest, but I do have a personal conflict of interest in that my mother is a member of the Association of Professional Genealogists in Ireland. I am not a member of the organisation and I did not receive a briefing over Sunday lunch, but I must state it for the record. It is unusual for a Member of Parliament to be questioning his mother at an official level.

Marcella Corcoran Kennedy (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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It has to be a first.

Fiach MacConghail (Independent)
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We might make history. I will not ask Mam what we are having for dinner on Sunday.

The broad issue of access and resources seems to be a general theme. Some of the groups obtain private income or make money from this. The Irish Family History Foundation makes income from the very successful generating of genealogical services. The submissions we received from the Genealogical Society of Ireland and the Association of Professional Genealogists of Ireland were concerned with how to maximise access as widely as possible to as many people as possible from the diaspora and Irish citizens. Are there tensions between public access and creating or protecting jobs? I need to know broadly what it means.

I acknowledge the support of the Minister, Deputy Deenihan, for irishgenealogy.ie. I have heard from Mr. Merrigan and from my mother about the clear argument for reviewing the Statistics Act. It makes great sense. I do not want the witness to respond on the issue but I wish to know I am clear on the recommendation on amending the 100 year rule in the Statistics Act, particularly with regard to the 1926 census. We know from Ms Catriona Crowe that an amount of money may be needed as significant investment was needed to put online the National Archives. Perhaps we need to invite in the CSO to hear its view.

Marcella Corcoran Kennedy (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I must warn the respondents they have less than a minute each.

Mr. Michael Merrigan:

Our society is an educational charity and all our members are ordinary genealogists. Some do professional genealogy and some are members of APGI. There is a great deal of cross-membership among the Irish organisations as the country is small.

With regard to the 1926 census our Bills, which were sponsored by Senator Ó Murchú, are with regard to a small technical amendment which will remove the 1926 census from the 100 year rule. It would then be open to the Minister to introduce regulations on how it is accessed.

Ms Nicola Morris:

With regard to access to records, a difficulty is that various organisations have different standards on how record sets have been produced. Earlier we were discussing access to images of the originals in some cases and not in others. There were also differences in how sets were collected. The Scottish collections have all been centralised in one location to one standard produced ten years ago. It has been incredibly successful. It is a pay-per-view site and it is generating income. It is a very good example to examine as to how all of the records were brought together.

Marcella Corcoran Kennedy (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I thank all of the witnesses very sincerely for their attendance this afternoon. They have been incredibly helpful to us in our daily sessions. I propose to suspend the meeting.

Marcella Corcoran Kennedy (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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We will continue our consideration of developing a plan to capture the full value of our genealogical heritage with our second group of witnesses. I welcome Rev. Dr. Norman Gamble, the Irish Railway Records Society Limited; Ms Eibhlín Roche, on behalf of the Guinness Storehouse Guinness archive; Mr. Brian Donovan and Ms Fiona Fitzsimons of Eneclann. Thank you for your attendance today.

By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. However, if they are directed by it to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against a person or an entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. I advise that any opening statement submitted to the committee may be published on its website after the meeting. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I invite Ms Roche to address the committee.

Ms Eibhlín Roche:

I thank the committee for inviting the Guinness archive to engage with it on this topic. The Guinness archive is based in the Guinness Storehouse, which is Ireland's premier visitor attraction. It is part of Diageo's operation in Ireland. It is an unusual archive service in the Irish cultural landscape. It is a corporate archive which, as well as fulfilling a service to its parent organisation, is also open to the public.

The Guinness company was founded in 1759 and there has always been a culture and philosophy within the organisation of both recognising the importance of the company's own heritage and its role within the culture of Ireland, and the need to preserve this heritage. Today, the Guinness archive spans over 7,000 linear metres of paper records documenting the history of St. James's Gate brewery and the Guinness brand in Ireland from 1759 to the present. Many researchers will be familiar with the 1901 and 1911 census, military records and church records, as we heard earlier today, but records of private industry are often neglected sources of genealogical information.

The Guinness company has been an integral part of Dublin's economic life for over two centuries. By 1930, for example, it was estimated that one in 30 people in Dublin relied on the Guinness company for their livelihood. It was the single largest employer in the city for over a century.

Part of our extensive archive collection contains the personnel or employment records of 20,000 such past employees, providing an important private social record which complements the official State record.

The Guinness Archive is unique in an Irish context in first, preserving these records and, second, making them publically accessible. Over the past number of years we have heavily invested in making this information more publically accessible. We have published a database of past employees on our website,guinnesss-storehouse.com, and this database is also available in the public research room of the Guinness Archive. Recently, we made our database available on Ancestry.co.ukas part of the data sets that are available to access for free on the website.

Due to the often sensitive nature of the information contained within the personnel files, which can extend to financial and medical information, the Guinness Archive only allows direct descendents full access to original employment files. As per data protection legislation, we do not allow access to the personnel files of living individuals and we only publically release details of past employees who we know are deceased or were born more than 110 years ago.

The information we have made publically available is information that is either already part of the official record or information that is not deemed personally sensitive. It is important to note these files are files of private industry and not public files, that is, State records, which means the content of these files has to be treated differently from State records.

Within the Guinness Storehouse, we certainly feel we are offering an important public service by making these employment records publically available. Our researchers are mainly Irish but, increasingly, we are receiving genealogical queries from researchers around the world. Guinness Storehouse received almost 1.1 million visitors in 2012, a 6% increase on 2011 visitor numbers. This year, the year of The Gathering, I am happy to say we are on track to exceed our 2012 visitor numbers. As we all know, The Gathering has highlighted the importance of our cultural heritage, tapping into the global Irish diaspora of more than 70 million people.

The latest Fáilte Ireland figures specifically relating to genealogy tourism are slightly old and date from 2011 when an estimated 92,000 overseas visitors engaged in tracing roots-genealogical activities. It will be interesting to see the impact of The Gathering on the 2012 genealogy tourism numbers.

It is imperative that initiatives such as The Gathering are backed up by access to genealogical resources, both public and private, and that records are viewed as part of our heritage to be valued and preserved as much as our castles and gardens.

However, our genealogy records are not just of importance for tourism. As we enter the decade of centenaries, our historical archives are the window to the past, to accurately explore the history of Ireland during the 1912-22 period. Genealogical records form an important part of our national collective memory and will form an important part of the historical debate on the events of this era.

To put that into context in terms of the Guinness Archive collection, we hold a large amount of historical material relating to the First World War. This material ranges from the impact of the war on the company's operation to files relating to the 800 men who left the brewery to fight in the war. These files are a hugely important sources for genealogical research and very much complement the official State and military records to bring a more complete history to life.

The investment Diageo has made in the Guinness Archive and the focus on preserving and making accessible the archive holdings to public is, ultimately, an investment in preserving a part of our national culture. Records of private industry are as important, in genealogical terms, as official State records and should, therefore, form part of the national debate when considering a plan to capture the full value of our genealogical heritage.

Rev. Dr. Norman Gamble:

The Irish Railway Records Society was founded in 1946 and is based in the former goods offices at Heuston Station in Dublin. It holds the non-statutory archives of the various railway companies which became part of CIE. The statutory records - minutes, share registers, etc., - are held by the CIE group. The society works closely with Irish Rail, the Rail Safety Commission, the rail accident investigation unit and the Railway Procurement Agency. In addition to our archives, we have a publishing programme, a regular journal, and a library and meetings in Dublin, Cork and London. If one goes to the 1911 census on the National Archives website, one will see a 1911 Dublin tram timetable which the library made available from its collection as part of the census digitisation project.

The strength of our position is that we are widely known among railway staff some of whom are members and, therefore, when offices get cleared, we often get a telephone call. As a specialist archive, we are probably best likened to military archives.

The focus of my presentation will be on staff records. In the year of the Lock-out centenary, we have complete staff records from the Dublin United Tramway Company, although only from 1923 as its headquarters were burned down in the Civil War. However, our main focus is on railway company archives. The railways were the biggest employers collectively in Victorian and Edwardian Ireland and in addition to running trains, they ran hotels, docks and engineering workshops. We hold staff records for all the big companies and some of the smaller ones.

In 1924 all the companies lying entirely within the Free State were formed into the Great Southern Railway. This company was allowed to buy out competing bus and lorry operators and we have a comprehensive set of bus driver and conductor records from the 1930s. The main body of our staff records are in ledgers from the main railway companies. Some are grouped by stations, such as Cork or Limerick, while some companies had a simple chronological ledger. These generally go back to the 1880s. Some of the smaller companies, such as the Cavan and Leitrim ones, have all their staff in one ledger. Cork had five railway companies and we have records for three of them.

The case of the Great Northern Railway is unique as we have a card index which, subject to some limitations, gives comprehensive coverage of all departments of what was until 1958 a cross-Border body. We have records of the company's staff for all of Northern Ireland. As an aside, it is worth noting that those who enlisted in the First World War were given a crimson card with the heading "European war". The Great Northern Railway records are probably the most comprehensive as the engineering department records are patchy to say the least for CIE.

We have through voluntary endeavour provided finding aides for some of these volumes and continue to do so. Our latest project is to create a database of pensioners for the Great Southern and Western Railway in 1907. Pensions then, as now, were a touchy subject. When the old age pension was introduced in 1906, the Great Southern and Western Railway told all its existing pensioners to claim the old age pension. They were then told their company pensions would be adjusted to compensate. There is a voluminous file of correspondence on this matter and we are creating a database that will cover many hundreds of railway workers in the largesse of the Irish railway companies, some of whom were employed from the opening of the line in 1846.

At the other end of the timescale, we have a full list of the thousands of Great Southern Railway staff who volunteered for service in the LDF during the Emergency. We also have files covering enlistment in Northern Ireland showing the lengths to which the Great Northern Railway went to keep its staff from voluntarily enlisting by having them designated as essential workers. We are carrying out this database project to help researchers but also to protect individual files from multiple handling.

We now come to our dilemma which is how to conserve the material and protect it from further deterioration.

We have rebound ledgers some with assistance from the Heritage Council but this is only a partial solution. Digitisation in a searchable format is the way forward but is beyond the means of the society at present. We open our archives to the public each Tuesday evening and provide a service to historians and those seeking more information about their family history. However, this is as far as we can go as a voluntary body. In addition to these opening hours, we commit additional hours to listing material, drawing up finding aids and dealing with Internet and postal queries.

In addition to family history it is worth, in the context of the decade of centenaries, outlining a selection of what we possess of a political nature. We have the founding memorandum of the Dublin Employers Federation, together with a large file on the 1911 railway strike which is often considered to be a dry-run for 1913. There are files on the European War, as it was then called, with material on the employment of wounded soldiers and veterans. Sean Heuston was a clerk of the Great Southern and Western Railway Company. His execution is recorded briefly in red ink in the staff record. The staff registers record service in the war and we can see that many returnee veterans did not last long in employment, such was their poor physical and mental health. This material continues to be of interest to historians.

I thank the committee for the opportunity to outline our archival activity.

Mr. Brian Donovan:

I would like to introduce my co-founder and fellow director at Eneclann, Ms Fiona Fitzsimons. I thank the committee for the invitation to appear before it today. In this short presentation, I will highlight key points from our 15 years of experience in genealogy in Ireland. The first question is what is the face of genealogy in Ireland and worldwide today? Second, given that genealogy has been transformed in the last 15 years, what can we learn from the State's role in this? Finally, as a company at the forefront of these changes, what do we recommend to propel progress?

Some committee members may already familiar with Eneclann but for the benefit of those who are not, Eneclann is a heritage company that develops digital resources for Irish family history as well as a range of complimentary services and products. The company was established in 1998 as a campus company at Trinity College Dublin and has won awards for its innovative business model. To date, Eneclann has published over 1,000 individual titles and over 70 million records online. It played a key role in the creation of the web service irishorigins.com, in 2003 and is a joint-venture partner inwww.findmypast.ie, launched in 2011. The company is well known for its high-profile genealogical research. This year, for example, we met Hollywood star Tom Cruise at Iveagh House to delivery his family history, stretching back over 1,000 years, a project we funded to support The Gathering initiative. We have worked with the popular television series, "Who do you think you are?" as well as home-produced features and are currently the anchor Irish researcher for NBC's "Faces of America" in the United States.

The company's highest-profile work was researching the ancestry of President Barack Obama. The company worked with Tourism Ireland and the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade to maximise the value of his visit to Ireland in 2011 and introduced Obama to his closest-living cousin in Ireland, a man called Dick Benn from Tipperary. This year, at the request of the White House, we gave Michelle Obama and her daughters a personal tour of their family history at Trinity College library.

Because of our expertise with historic records, Eneclann has been appointed by the State to tackle many landmark archival projects. We worked with the Department of Defence on a massive data disaster recovery of over 130,000 files. We worked on a project for the Department of Health involving a detailed listing of over 200,000 records relating to children in State care. We also undertook work for the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, where we scheduled over 100,000 Land Commission files. Eneclann is also a trusted partner of many cultural institutions in Ireland and abroad including the National Archives of Ireland, Trinity College library, the UK National Archives, Family Search and many more.

What can we say about genealogy in the wider world in 2013? In the past 15 years we have had a digital revolution in Irish family history. There are now over 100 million Irish records online. These records are much more accessible than they have ever been before and are much easier to search. As a consequence, we have seen an exponential growth in the numbers of people tracing their Irish origins at home and abroad. The two engines behind this change are the internet and popular entertainment. Eneclann has been a technology pioneer in Irish genealogy, from publishing one of the first databases of material in 1999 to releasing the first complete edition of Griffith's Valuation online in 2003, a key resource, to our current position of having brought over 70 million Irish records to the public via the findmypast.ie website. Popular entertainment and major television programmes have also played a role. Genealogy is no longer perceived as a hobby for people with an aristocratic background. There is an understanding that every family has a story and that it is possible to trace almost every family back to the 1830s.

Genealogy is now a major worldwide hobby. What is the size of the global genealogy audience? Marketing surveys in the United States over the past 20 years have shown a dramatic rise in interest in genealogy, with recent figures showing that 73% of the adult population are interested, which equates to 173 million people. Of those interested, it is estimated that 17% or 40 million are very interested. While surveys of this nature have not been carried out in Ireland and Britain, the continued success of family history television programmes as well as the strong commercial success of Irish and British online publishers likefindmypast.ie, suggest that the underlying trend is the same.

I draw the committee's attention to the short roots tourism section of our submission. An estimated 90,000 people visit Ireland each year to engage in family history research. findmypast.ie now has more than 70,000 registered users from Ireland. This is the face of twenty first century genealogy. It is serviced almost entirely by online genealogy publishers, whether private or public. Genealogy is a business, a growing industry that offers employment prospects and tax revenues. The worldwide value of genealogy is approximately €4 billion and is consistently growing at rates of over 20% per annum. The scale of Irish emigration and the size of the Irish diaspora in general are important metrics in determining the potential value of Irish genealogy.

What can we learn from the last 15 years? Our submission identifies those things the State did that worked and those that did not. Let us look at the successes. First we have the publication of the 1901 - 1911 census records online. Even with budget cuts, the National Archives continues to release records online by working in partnership with the private sector, particularly findmypast.ie. The National Library, despite cuts of 40% has managed to maintain a free genealogy advisory service which is actually unsustainable with such cuts. In 2013 The Gathering was a great success but we need to develop roots tourism as a legacy project.

We can also learn from missed opportunities. We regret the continuing inertia of many State agencies vis-à-vis engaging with digitisation and releasing their records online, although sometimes they have no option. There is also a lack of understanding of the possibilities online publishers can bring to our heritage which is unfortunate. The development of the genealogy business offers great opportunities for tourism, access to archives and employment.

In light of these changes, what do we at Eneclann recommend should happen? In our submission we discuss many areas that should be addressed but in the time allowed, I will only bring some key points to the attention of the committee. Members will be glad to know that only one area involves spending. The Government must reverse the cuts to public archives and libraries. These provide an essential service that underpins all other development. There are hundreds of millions of genealogical records that must be made available and this will only happen with an adequately funded archival sector with the support of online publishers. The Government needs to familiarise itself with the genealogy business and what it means for the Irish economy, as it has already done with the technology industry. We have an excellent opportunity to turn this country into a European hub for genealogy but this requires the Government facilitating this development and enabling innovation. Our submission gives a step-by-step guide to some of the key issues to be addressed here, including freeing up access to historic records, changing data protection guidelines, empowering the cultural sector to partner with publishers and other innovators as well as connecting to the diaspora. We are incredibly lucky in Ireland, with tens of millions of people worldwide with an emotional connection to this island that other countries can only envy. To maintain these connections with successive generations and to strengthen these links, we need to connect these people to their personal heritage. Genealogy should be the key legacy from the year of The Gathering. We should have a genealogy centre in Dublin, which could be self-financing.

In conclusion, there are great opportunities to develop genealogy here and the Government can have a significant impact, for better or worse, depending on the decisions it makes or fails to make.

One thing is certain, we cannot do nothing.

Marcella Corcoran Kennedy (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. Donovan for his opening statement. I invite members to contribute. Is Senator Mac Conghail offering?

Fiach MacConghail (Independent)
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I thank all the witnesses for appearing before the joint committee. It is lovely to hear both Ms Eibhlín Roche and Rev. Dr. Norman Gamble's connection with and stories on the archive. Of course, the Guinness Archive is extraordinarily valuable and long may they proceed to publish and make those connections, particularly as we approach the centenary of the Great War, the First World War. That information will become extremely valuable.

I thank Mr. Donovan for the time he has taken to make this presentation and I wish to pose some practical questions on what needs to be done. This will help us in making recommendations to the Minister. We believe the Minister is very supportive of this industry but perhaps needs more arguments and demonstrated proofs of what genealogy can bring to the economy, in short QEDs, quod erat demonstrandum.

Is Mr. Donovan aware of any economic impact study or economic study else where in the world on creating jobs from the genealogy business? Has he any examples that we could examine so that we could make an argument for creating jobs, or that it can be viewed as an industry like the tech industry? We know it is an industry. We know also it is a hobby that can be monetised and that there is both a public and private interest in it. Long may that continue.

In respect of data protection, are they in favour of reducing the time frame from 100 year to 90 years or 70 years? I would like to hear their view on that.

The witnesses are, of course, aware of the difficulty the national cultural institutions face in making money, as they are practically prohibited from making money through a bizarre set of rules and regulations. Let me give an example. Even tendering for a fundraising job in the National Library, the National Museum or National Gallery is obtuse. Have they further insights on how the culture sector can make money in this area?

Marcella Corcoran Kennedy (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I will invite the witnesses to respond after Senator van Turnhout asks questions.

Jillian van Turnhout (Independent)
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I thank the Acting Chairperson for allowing me to attend this meeting as I am not a member of this committee. Unfortunately I did not receive the documents in advance but I have a personal interest in the subject. I thank Deputy Catherine Murphy and Senator McConghail for advising me of the agenda for today's meeting.

I wish to address a question to Ms Eibhlín Roche on the Guinness Archive. She told the committee she has given access free of charge to Ancestry.co.uk. This is excellent. What is the reason that she cannot use the Irish genealogy site sponsored by the State, is that not an option? I am trying to understand how to put material together from an Irish side. She mentioned the difference between the types of resources.

I am a big supporter of online publishing both because of the access to those in Ireland and overseas. I have been in the National Archives to seek access to a will and have been told it cannot be transferred because of the condition it is in. I am sure every time these documents are opened up, that is impacting on their condition. There is an issue also with the handling of documents and with digitisation. There are issues for those heavily vested in this areas as well as for the general public. Ms Roche mentioned how television programmes and other sources that bring people's attention to this subject. We saw the impact of the digitisation of the 1911 and 1901 census in raising interest in genealogy among many new people. I am a big supporter of digitising the 1926 census. I was very happy to hear Ms Máire Mac Conghail speak about the General Register Office of Ireland digitising its records. The fact that an Irish citizen can go to family search or Ancestry.co.uk to get a digitisation of the GRO but one cannot do it from an Irish site is wrong. We own this material and yet Ireland cannot put it online but I can access it from sources outside Ireland.

Mr. Donovan mentioned that Ireland is a European hub for genealogy. Is that in respect of our heritage or the digital hub that we proudly profiled in Ireland? I have seen that Ancestry.co.uk have brought 15 jobs to the digital hub and expect to expand to 50 jobs, mainly in the management and finance area. Could Mr. Donovan outline the basis for his assertion that we could become an European hub for genealogy?

Rev. Dr. Norman Gamble:

I will respond to Senator van Turnhout's last point. We are working on such a small shoe-string that we do not even think about the financing. That has some benefits. We would be one of a number of very specialised archives and if the material was on a larger scale, one would lose the environment in which it is set. People often come along and have an idea that somebody worked on the railways and were able to find out a lot but some of the terminology does not always match up with their expectation. Engine driver for example does not necessarily mean a man who drove a railway engine, he could have stoked a mill. We are able to read into the background. I was just thinking when the hundreds of thousands were mentioned that we would probably see 400 to 500 people in a season from September to June and deal with the same number of e-mail or postal inquiries that come in. It is a drop in the ocean, but we may need to prevent ourselves being carried away with a desire for technology. We are a voluntary society with approximately 1,200 members scattered around the British Isles in the main. We get donations from people who visit the archives but there is no source to which we can turn apart from the annual Heritage Council grant. There is no finance from the Departments of Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht or Education and Skills. I think some aspects of what we are discussing are related to the education budget just as much as the heritage budget. I know that the Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht is a very sincere and committed person but he does not have the mega millions. It is still low down in the priorities of Government. Something needs to be done to preserve local culture in a tangible way that is not being done at present.

Mr. Brian Donovan:

A number of issues have been raised and I will answer them as best I can.

Senator Mac Conghail asked whether a case study was conducted anywhere in the world on the economic impact of genealogy related activity? I am not aware of one but I can refer members to the case study of the State of Utah in the USA. For its own reasons this has become a centre for genealogy. I am not going to discuss the good, bad or otherwise of those reasons but the point is that it has turned into a hub for north American genealogy. All the major companies are located there employing thousands in this industry. That happened for its own reasons. Something similar could happen in Dublin or an English speaking country, because this is what will bring in these companies. Ancestry.co.uk have already set up their international headquarters here and DC Thompson Family History has already set up an important office in Dublin, about which members will hear more on Thursday. We could be bringing in My Heritage.com and many other such groups to base themselves in Dublin. We have done really well in Ireland in reaching out to tech companies internationally to attract them to locate here. That is an added reason these companies want to be here because they are also deeply embedded within the tech industry.

Why should we not reach out? To do so would not require substantial expenditure. What we need is to have the vision to do this. It would create a tremendous spur for genealogy. It is not, however, the only thing we need to do. While there is no pot of gold at the end of the genealogical rainbow, for all the reasons we have discussed, we should be intelligent about using our economic prospects to further what we want to do with genealogy.

We were asked what we wanted in the area of data protection. Section 4 of our submission noted that we may only need to have a change in guidelines and regulations and the Data Protection Act may not require amendment. What we seek is a reduction in the basic exclusion from 100 years to 70 years, the norm in most countries in the European Union and the United States. Such a move would result in the release of records dating until 1943. The legal issues in respect of access to the 1926 census would also be removed and it would free up millions of other records that we not even begun discussing.

We were asked about the cultural sector making money. Section 4 specifically states that the cultural sector must be allowed to make money. It is not that we advocate turning cultural bodies into commercial bodies - on the contrary - but there is a disincentive to engage in activities which would raise finance to be spent on other things. These bodies are not encouraged to consider other options because there is no benefit for them in doing so. They do their best with what they have but that is not an option.

Senator van Turnhout raised a number of issues. I will be pleased to send her a copy of our submission. She raised an important point which has been raised previously and will be raised again, namely, the issue of free access to records versus paid access to records. This is a false dichotomy because one can have both. Private publishers are good at reaching out to people to build their family histories online. We offer added value in grouping and linking records, having family tree makers available and allowing people to do their research. We also offer a range of other services. We do not mind if records are free on another site, behind the pay wall of our site or even free on our site. It is not a case of having one thing or the other. We need to abandon the mindset that this can only be done in one way as it can be done in many different ways at the same time. The more freely available genealogical information is to more sites, the better it is at meeting the needs of our diaspora as well as our cultural and economic needs.

Ms Fiona Fitzsimmons:

One of the key features of online publishing is that it is sometimes possible to create a definitive version of a source that did not exist previously. The perfect example of this is Griffith's Valuation. In 2003, in partnership with the National Library and National Archives, we started work on digitising the collection that is known as Griffith's Valuation. This is not one source but a collection of more than 310 individual books. When we approached the project the first thing we had to do was get to grips with how much information there was and where it was found. The National Library, National Archives and Valuation Office did not have a single copy of all the different books that comprise Griffith's valuation. It was, therefore, a matter of going from archive to archive and library to library. Along with the national cultural institutions, we also approached King's Inns, some of the archives in the United Kingdom, a library in Salt Lake City and a private collector in North America whose ancestors came from a particular townland here. The individual in question had gone to the trouble of finding the particular book, a once-off publication, and purchasing it at auction. I understand there were only three land-holders in the entire townland of his ancestors. We assembled all the relevant information, obtained the approval of all the relevant parties, digitised the information and created a searchable index. Using this index, a person who finds the individual he or she is tracing can click through and see the visual image. For the first time since Griffith's Valuation was published, we have a definitive version. The only place the valuation is available nowadays is online because there is still not a single archive that has a complete collection. This is one of the advantages of digital publication that is sometimes not appreciated.

Ms Eibhlin Roche:

On the question about access to our records, in recent years, the Guinness Archive has dedicated resources to creating an index and database based on all of our records. The first step to making this public was publication on our own website. We linked with the Irish office of Ancestry.co.uk two months ago following an approach it made to us. This decision is very much part of an overall strategy of making the information we hold publicly available. The information we have published on the ancestry website is not any more detailed than the information available on our website. Our view is that it will result in increased traffic to our website. Since we published on Ancestry.co.uk, traffic to our website has increased threefold. We provide free access to our information, which is top line given the nature of the records. We are very open to publishing the information on other websites.

Labhrás Ó Murchú (Fianna Fail)
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The multifaceted and complex nature of what we are discussing was to be expected before this meeting. This discussion and our previous session show that the issue may not be as complex as we first thought.

I concur with Mr. Donovan that access to information can be both paid for and free. We need to consider this if we wish to see beyond our discussions and identify what contribution we hope to make. Even the diversity of the witnesses before us is very interesting in that they represent both private industry and organisations involved in public records. We are adding not to the complexity of the issue but to the multifaceted nature of the important topic we are addressing.

My questions are aimed at identifying where the committee's discussions will lead. The mere fact that we are having this discussion underlines the importance of the issue, its potential and the important assets that exist. In other areas of community activity, for example, sport, the diverse elements of the relevant activity have been successfully brought together in a single body. This has been useful and has eliminated much of the fog and fudge. One could say the same about the Arts Council, although it is a statutory body. There are many similar examples. Unfortunately, this is not the case in the area of genealogy. We meet every so often and make an effort but do not work on structures, disciplines and so on. The final plan must ensure that each player is able to identify itself within the plan and see evidence of its ownership and autonomy. This does detract from the success of the route we are taking.

I empathise with the Reverend Dr. Gamble's argument on resources and others having greater resources for other types of work. We also heard about the success of Eneclann and the bigger picture there. We can all understand the reason the Guinness Storehouse is successful. As we heard, when one speaks to people abroad about Ireland they refer to Guinness or scenery.

We would all like the various players to come together. Do the witness have any ideas on the methodology for doing so? I declared my interest in the previous session when I stated I am the chairman of the Family History Foundation. We have engaged with many organisations, including Eneclann, in an informative exercise which I hope was helpful in both directions. If this process moves forward in the manner we hope, what type of forum will emerge given the large number of players involved? How will it work? If we do not achieve anything from these hearings, it will create even greater frustration. For this reason, we must try this time to make this exercise worthwhile.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Independent)
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I thank the witnesses. This has been a very interesting session.

It was deliberate that the committee invited such a diverse range of people to attend, who while they do not make up an exhaustive list of the groups involved in this area give us more or less a taste of the various strands that will provide for a plan that will include all of the records that are available. In other countries many of the records we are discussing might not be needed by someone searching for their family history because the census would be there from the 19th century, but we do not have that. Census substitutes have become very important here. Some of these census substitutes are in the form of the railway records, the Guinness records and other work records. For example, local authorities will have staff records going far back into the 19th century. We could list a range of other similar bodies or organisations with records. The important point about doing this is to show the diversity of what is available. Many people think everything in the public records office was burnt in 1922, but that is not true at all.

I have worked out my family history and it was because of having to search for records sideways that I realised that these types of records are incredibly important. I drove Eibhlín Roche to distraction in my search for family history in connection with the Guinness records. I also had reason to drive Dr. Peter Rigney of the railway records nuts. I have searched both of these repositories. People speak about the emotional connection, but I had not realised until I searched how important it is to pin down place and what a difference this makes to an individual in how he or she relates to that place afterwards. Both the Guinness and the railway records helped me do that.

What we are trying to create for people is an easy path to do this. Gabriel Byrne was very critical about us always trying to get into the pockets of individuals, but it is not about that. Making the emotional connection for people is a different thing entirely. We must find ways of making this easy for people. It is all very well if people can get on a bus and go into town to the National Archives or whatever, but some people come from the other side of the world and have only two or three weeks to do their research, without knowing the landscape or where exactly to start looking. We need to take on the challenge of making this easier for people if we are going to reconnect the people who wish to do this. The range of repositories available will be important to doing that.

Many of my questions have already been answered. In regard to the Guinness records, I compliment the website initiative because it makes the records visible and demonstrates how important they are. On the Irish Railway records, mention was made of the voluntary effort on the cataloguing etc. so as to be able to pinpoint the relevant ledgers in the archive. Is there concern with regard to the preservation of the records? A concern was expressed regarding how they are handled. In searching for my records, I brought a camera with me and took photographs and that was allowed. Does taking photographs damage the record or is there a better way of dealing with this? It is important to maintain the integrity of the records.

The gazette published by the Irish Railway Records Society is interesting and brings out the value of the records, particularly at a time like now when we are entering a decade of commemorations of centenaries. The gazette report on the role of women in the railways during the First World War was incredibly interesting, as were many other reports covered in the gazette. Will the society representatives speak about the preservation of the records? I will leave it to Deputy Tuffy to ask about youth involvement. What would a European hub involve or what would it be like? Would it be a physical location or an online service? I accept that accessing records could be done on a pay per view or a free to view basis. However, is there a conflict in regard to records that were publicly produced, such as the indexes to the General Register Office, GRO, being available on a pay per view site? If the records have been publicly generated, one should not have to pay to view them. Is there an issue in that regard? I felt annoyed by that, but do not know whether I should have felt so annoyed. Is there a conflict in that regard?

I was looking at the figure for the population of Ireland in 1841, which was 8.1 million. The UK then had a population of 18 million and the population of New York was 350,000. This says it all - in the context of trying to put the records back together on that time. The records, as mentioned, are our window to the past. Clearly, we cannot tie all the information together and it will be fragmented. Finding ways of working together, whatever format is used, is the important task we need to undertake.

Marcella Corcoran Kennedy (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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Would Deputy Tuffy like to come in here?

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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I have the same question as I asked the previous groups. What scope is there for the various organisations involved to bring in young people under the youth guarantee funding that will be available in the new year? This would help the groups by providing personnel, but the work would also be great experience for young people. Are there any plans to do this or have any young people been taken on through JobBridge or any of the other existing schemes? If something is to be done in regard to the records, it is not enough for the Government to provide the funding. The private and public sector have a responsibility to make places available. This was done in the past. In the 1980s and early 1990s, local groups got together and set up social employment schemes. I took part in such a scheme and found it great because it provided a bridge into permanent work. What are the plans in that regard?

Marcella Corcoran Kennedy (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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There are plenty of questions there. Who would like to respond first?

Dr. Norman Gamble:

Deputy Murphy spoke about the state of records. I have been involved in research not into genealogy, but into history and 40 to 50 years ago the state of the records retained by CIE was appalling. However, to give them their due, we brought this to their attention in the 1970s, through one of my predecessors, Joe Leckey, who was a professional archivist. CIE spent significant money on the records then - it had more money then than now - but there are certain items that I would love to have the money to work on as they need to be retained in their present form. The nature of, for example, the Great Southern and Western Railway archives is one that does not lend itself to digitisation.

The railways had an appalling way of keeping records.

They listed the station and when somebody moved from one job to another, he or she was crossed out with a big red line and put on another page, before being moved to something else. We end up chasing people through these books and there is a wear and tear factor in that. There needs to be a general awareness, fostered by the Department, of the value of archives - genealogical and otherwise - in the history of Ireland. These records were not seen as having any value until the 1970s. They were there because they could not be got rid of and they were in damp cellars. That is probably true of a whole range of industrial and social archives across the country.

Another thing that worries me is that these archives are increasingly going into digital form and there is no longer any paper. I have grave doubts about the stability of much digital recording of accounts and payments from the early days of computerisation. The records that we and others have around the country are in paper form. They may be fragile, but we can keep them so that they do not deteriorate. If somebody gives me a large disk of payments and staff records from the 1970s, I do not even know how to get into it. We find it increasingly difficult to find people who can do that. This is being disregarded across the industrial sphere.

Mr. Brian Donovan:

I would first like to reply to the question on digital records. The Deputy is absolutely right. Records created in the early stages of computerisation, when the first accounts packages were introduced in the late 1970s and the 1980s, have a huge range of associated problems. However, since we started bringing in standards for keeping modern records in the 1990s, I am pleased to say that those problems do not really exist for the long-term preservation of the information. We will be left with this problem for about 20 years and we will have to deal with that. However, the digitalisation of historic records is a different issue altogether. The standards that apply to the digitalisation of historic records are well known. We follow open-source standards for the images that are captured. We do not use proprietary software for this. It is a very good way to keep a surrogate copy. I say "surrogate copy" because the original record is more important. By having a surrogate digital copy, people can look at that and the original can be put in a proper archival environment, with proper temperature humidity controls. That is the ideal situation because like most archivists, we prefer not to look at the record at all because that damages it.

The Deputy also asked what this hub would look like. I am not talking about a hub as an institution. I am talking about an environment where we have free engagement with the records that might result in innovative models, businesses, volunteer groups and so on. There are certain basic things we need to do to facilitate that happening. We must have free access to the records that are available. We need to focus our attention on the limited Government funds to support the archives doing what they do, which is archival work. Let the private companies and volunteer groups come together to seek to publish them, while the funds are low. At the moment, what is happening is a misuse of funds because there are other ways of doing this. The hub is not a building or institution, but a collection of organisations which happen to share a common space, and interact and engage with each other, and develop innovation as a consequence of being geographic location together. That is not dissimilar to what happened with technology out in Silicon Valley. I do not wish to exaggerate, as there is not a pot of gold.

The Deputy also raised the issue of paying for indexes to public records. If the indexes are digitised and made available for free by a public institution, then that is one thing, but it is a different thing altogether if indexes are not even in existence to start and are created privately. I should say at this point that the GRO indexes are available on several sites online. They are available for free at familysearch.org, or behind a paywall on ancestry.com or on findmypast.ie. We have been told another version will be available from the GRO itself, and we look forward to that. I think the question is whether the public sector is fulfilling its public access remits, but not suddenly to hobble private organisations from trying to do good things as well, which can help support them. It is not an either/or question. It is not about paying for something or having it for free; it can be both. For example, we have a series of agreements with the National Archives whereby we digitise their records, index them, put them online and they are available commercially for a duration of time, before they later go online for free to everybody. That happens on the National Archives website and on our own. We also do stuff immediately for free on both websites. I want to open members' minds to a range of possibilities of how these things might look. I dislike the fact that we might end up with a Government decision that we will do everything one way only. That would preclude all the diversity and innovation that might take place among public organisations, voluntary groups and private companies.

Another question was about the diversity of records that could be digitised. We addressed this in the second point of our ideas on what should be done. Perhaps Ms Fitzsimmons might discuss this.

Ms Fiona Fitzsimmons:

I will do so, and I would also like to respond to Senator Ó Murchú and Deputy Murphy. I was very interested to hear both of them talk about diversity. First and foremost, digitisation of records can secure the assets of our cultural heritage. Dr. Gamble referred to wear and tear. Where there is wear and tear, digitisation is particularly relevant. It is part of the modern conservation of records. It means that we can digitise records and then create a searchable index. People can actually find their ancestor in the index, click and then see the image. In the meantime, the actual paper record can be conserved and put away, so that minimises the actual use and any further damage to the record. There are also digital standards for preserving records and Mr. Donovan has touched on that.

The digital revolution to which Mr. Donovan referred in his short presentation is very real. It has led to over 100 million records being placed online in the last 15 years or so, but there is also a much greater understanding that genealogy is not just about births, marriages and deaths and parish records. It is really about the records that have survived. We have lost almost the entire 19th century census, so what can we use to track people down? There is a diversity of records available and I would like to emphasise three huge collections that are available, to a greater or lesser degree, to researchers. I have used all of them in the course of my career as a professional genealogist. The first is the Registry of Deeds. That registry is very often misunderstood as being simply legal records and the records of the ascendancy. They are not. The Registry of Deeds contain the records of the Irish middle class. We always had a fairly sizeable middle class and the records cover the entire island of Ireland. If those records were to be digitised, it would transform the record from being a big and unwieldy archive into something that can be searched and be used to trace ancestors. If those records were digitised, we could go beyond simply looking at the townlands index. We would be able to start looking below that level of middle class people who have assets that they are trying to protect, and find people who did not usually have assets and who do not appear in any other records from that time. I am talking about school teachers, small shopkeepers, people who run businesses, the law clerks. These are the approximately 30% of Irish people who were literate and who were then called on to act as witnesses when any of these deeds were being drawn up.

The other point about the Registry of Deeds is that everyone assumes these are simply records of the ascendancy or of people who belonged to the established church. As a matter of fact, when a person registered a deed, it immediately meant that his or her document had priority over an unregistered deed. This meant that right from the get-go, from the day it opened, people who were Catholic, Presbyterian or dissenter made a beeline for the Registry of Deeds to try to guarantee the greatest security possible and keep control of their assets. That is one of the major points to be noted.

Ms Helen Moss and I researched President Barack Obama's ancestry. In fact, he was a Senator when we first began researching, which shows for how long it had been going on. We made significant use of the Registry of Deeds. His family was not wealthy. One branch became super-wealthy or did very well. While his family was not wealthy, it did have assets. These details are not easily available to researchers.

Another great set of records is the Land Commission's records. They are probably the best archival source for the Irish population in the 19th century and one must jump through a series of fiery hoops to gain access to them. Again, I emphasise the Land Commission's records are not about the wealthy. One will find records of estates and landed families, but what I find more important are the details of the rentals and the ordinary people on five, ten or 15 acres. They included farmers, a portion of whose rent was covered by their labour. My family is well represented among these labourers and I am keen to gain access to the records.

The third set of records is the records of the Valuation Office. Deputy Catherine Murphy referred to census substitutes. Many of us have come to use the Valuation Office's records as an excellent census substitute because one can see how long a family remained in an area.

There is another point I am keen to emphasise on diversity. We do not have 19th century census returns, but we do have statistics taken from them before they were destroyed. In the 1841 census some 36.7% of the Irish population was not Catholic. For "not Catholic" read Church of Ireland and dissenter. Genealogy can help us to connect with our own past and have a greater understanding of who we are and from where we came. That cohort is a major part of the Diaspora, with which we are not really connecting. I refer back to the President Barack Obama case. His family were southern Protestants which I emphasise as being an identity quite distinct from that of the Ulster Scots. The people concerned were southern Episcopalian - that was how they were known in the United States - and once they had emigrated to the United States, within one generation they had assimilated and all knowledge of their Irish origins had been lost, as happened in the case of President Barack Obama's family. I do not believe we are reaching out to this section of the Diaspora. Again, that brings me back to the idea that there was emigration from Ireland throughout the 1600s and 1700s. The Irish built America, but they did not simply build the railroads or the great buildings. Often, they were the nation's builders; they were there from the start. I refer the committee to some cases on which I have worked recently. Samuel Ogle was Governor of Maryland in the 1740s. He had spent most of his childhood and his entire early life in Ireland. Richard Montgomery who was the senior general active in the field during the American War of Independence had grown up in Charlie Haughey's old house, Abbeville - surprisingly. This is a section of the Diaspora to which we are not reaching out.

I liked what Senator Labhrás Ó Murchú had to say about bringing the community together. If anything, that is, ultimately, what this is about. We have seen a major increase in interest among Irish people. It is also great to be able to connect with that part of the Diaspora overseas.

Ms Eibhlin Roche:

One of the phrases used in the earlier sessions was related to an affinity with Ireland. That picks up closely on Ms Fitzsimons's point. One of my points relates to handling records. As a professional archivist, digital preservation and creating digital copies is definitely the way to go. As Mr. Donovan remarked, there are many standards for how to digitise records properly. It is "watch out" when we have many voluntary groups with the best intentions wishing to start digitising material, perhaps local parish records or other local material, without having true sight of what constitutes proper standards. When people are working with limited resources, they can sometimes be throwing bad money after good and someone may have to come along three or four years down the road and redigitise the records.

There is work to be done. Senator Labhrás Ó Murchú asked about the plan and what was next. One of the next parts of the plan is putting together a set of standards that will be readily available for people who are not part of a larger institution or do not have access to a professional archivist. These standards should outline what a digital preservation plan looks like, how people can go about digitising records and keep the context in which the records were created. As archivists, we are always big fans of context. A record is not created in isolation. At a simple level, that is what we have done with the Guinness archive. We have data about the individual and his date of birth. However, we have introduced a contextual element which explains the department and where the person worked. Adding this contextual information and keeping the context is interesting.

A point made by one of the previous speakers earlier this afternoon resonated with me. It was related to the overall plan and creating an inventory of the genealogical potential of the resources available. That rings true in trying to create a first base. We cannot decide what we are doing with the records unless we know what we have available. The second part is to create a plan of what we do with them. The idea is to try to identify an inventory or a resource in order that we all know exactly what records are available. We should then centralise them in order that we do not have visitors who are completely new to Ireland having to go to three or four websites to try to find the same information. It would be preferable to have the material centralised.

Marcella Corcoran Kennedy (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Deputy Joanna Tuffy asked a question about the youth guarantee scheme. Would anyone like to come in on it?

Mr. Brian Donovan:

Deputy Joanna Tuffy raised the question in the previous session. One of the best placed organisations to reply to it is the Irish Family History Foundation. I noticed, however, that the deputation was somewhat reticent in its response. Perhaps I can give the committee some ideas which are a little clearer. It is very difficult to bring in untrained young inexperienced people and involve them in transcribing historical records. It requires a certain degree of expertise to be able to do this. I am not necessarily referring to university based expertise and have no wish to try to remove it and place it out of the reach of everyone. A great deal of training is required. Most heritage centres put a major effort into training people to do the work. I am keen to ensure we do not end up making the mistake where, it could be argued, we could potentially turn heritage centres into training institutions. In fact, what they are supposed to be doing is delivering a genealogical product. Their purpose is to try to generate something. However, if we were to turn them into training institutions, they would become derailed from what they were supposed to be doing. If it would help them, that would be great, but they can make the decision themselves. Where a local youth employment scheme could work really well is in doing the things on the ground which are difficult to do. This includes identifying and transcribing gravestones, most of which are in a dreadful state of disrepair throughout the country. Also, collecting oral history is valuable. Something we have not had for a long time is an oral history project. We could try to determine what survives locally from the folklore project in the 1930s. These are projects in which they could play a role, but throwing them into historical record projects may not be the best use of their efforts.

Another point raised by Senator Labhrás Ó Murchú was interesting and, if committee members do not mind, I will address it. It relates to how engagement will work between all interested parties. It is a complex issue because there are many vested interests and stakeholders.

It would probably be partially collaborative and competitive in looking for their slice of the pie. Ultimately, however, it is mainly a collaborative approach. Must we set up an organisation to do this? What might be more useful is to have a regular meeting point where all of these organisations - private, public and voluntary - could meet and engage with their ideas. Better still, the State could facilitate that innovation, making it possible for more things to happen.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Marcela Corcoran Kennedy):

I thank all of the representatives for assisting us in our deliberations. Both sessions were fascinating and I look forward to our further investigations in this regard, before we work on putting a report together to give a shape to where we should proceed with this work.