Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Tuesday, 3 December 2013
Joint Oireachtas Committee on Transport and Communications
EirGrid: Discussion with Chairman Designate
11:00 am
John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The purpose of today's meeting is to meet Mr. John O'Connor, chairperson designate, EirGrid to discuss the approach that he will take in his proposed new role. We also want to hear his views on the challenges that face the company.
Members will be aware of the Government's decision in May 2011 which put new arrangements in place for the appointment of persons to State boards and bodies. The committee welcomes the opportunity to meet the chairperson designate in public session to hear his views. We trust that the debate will provide greater transparency to the process of appointments to State boards and bodies. On behalf of the committee I welcome Mr. John O'Connor.
I draw witnesses' attention to the fact that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to this committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in relation to a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise nor make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I also wish to advise that any submission or opening statements the witness has submitted to the committee will be published on the committee's website after the meeting. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.
I call on Mr. O'Connor to make his opening remarks.
Mr. John O'Connor:
I shall commence by apologising for having a head cold. I hope that it does not get in the way of our communications.
I thank the committee for affording me an opportunity to meet and outline, at an early stage, my thinking and approach that I will take if my appointment as chairperson of EirGrid is formalised. I am honoured to have been invited by the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Pat Rabbitte, to chair the board of EirGrid following the expiry of the previous chairperson’s term of office.
In terms of State companies, EirGrid is of the first rank of importance to the social and economic well-being of the whole island of Ireland. As the operator of the electricity grid transmission system and the single electricity market, its activities touch the lives of every person and business on the island by providing a safe and reliable supply of electricity to homes and businesses at the cheapest possible rate. It is vital to the competitiveness of both economies and to environmental sustainability.
At this point, I shall outline my own background. I was born and reared on a farm in north west County Cork near the source of the River Blackwater and now live in east Cork on the Blackwater estuary. I have spent 35 years in the Department of the environment during which I held positions as finance officer, principal in housing policy and finance and assistant secretary in charge of the planning and water division. In these capacities, I was involved in many innovative measures, including shared ownership, the first policy and legislation to counteract social segregation in housing, reform of building society legislation, the modernisation and consolidation of planning legislation, the national spatial strategy and the modernisation of water legislation. During the period I served on the boards of three commercial state bodies, namely, the Housing Finance Agency, Temple Bar Properties and the Dublin Docklands Authority.
In 2000, I was appointed chairperson of An Bord Pleanála following the statutory selection process and in 2007 I was re-appointed for a further four-year term to bring me up to retirement age. In that position it was my duty to chair the full-time board of up to 12 members and to act as the executive head of the organisation that had up to 160 staff. During much of my time as chairperson, An Bord Pleanála operated under intense pressure arising out of a large increase in its workload.
There was a considerable increase in productivity in the organisation without affecting the quality of its work.
The Planning and Development Act 2000 transferred to An Bord Pleanála the functions of the planning consent authority and compulsory purchase order confirmation for the national roads programme. Subsequently, the Planning and Development (Strategic Infrastructure) Act 2006 similarly assigned to An Bord Pleanála the same functions in regard to other major national infrastructure, including energy, transport and environmental projects. This arose out of widespread concerns about the delays and uncertainties around planning consent for critical infrastructure projects which were inherent in the local planning application and appeal procedures. At the time, there were demands for the setting up of a new strategic infrastructure consent body but I was able to persuade the Government that it would be better to assign the function to An Bord Pleanála. I considered it essential that the same standard and rigour of planning and environmental assessments as apply to planning applications generally would apply and be seen to apply to strategic infrastructure projects under the new regime.
During my long period of service in the Department and An Bord Pleanála, I have developed a deep appreciation of our environment and heritage. I regard them as unique assets in which every citizen has a legitimate interest and which we hold in trust for future generations. They go to the heart of our identity and culture and must weigh very heavily in proposing, or deciding on, any development that might affect them. I am happy that my actions in the Department and in An Bord Pleanála, as reflected in the decisions of that body during my period in the chair, bear out my beliefs. Members will be aware that An Bord Pleanála has refused permission for some strategic infrastructure projects and required major changes to others.
About a year ago, the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Phil Hogan, asked me to chair the pyrite resolution board. This board was set up initially on an informal basis to deal with the damage caused by pyritic heave to dwellings and the hardship inflicted on home owners. The Minister will introduce legislation shortly to establish the pyrite resolution board on a statutory basis. Developing solutions to this problem has taken considerable effort and I have been devoting a lot of time to it. However, I expect that when the arrangements for the remediation programme are finalised following the enactment of the legislation, the time commitment required of me will be reduced and I am happy that it will not, in any way, interfere with my chairmanship of EirGrid.
In taking over the chairmanship of EirGrid, I believe I am going into a well-run company that has delivered on its mandate and coped very well with the fundamental changes in the electricity market on the island of Ireland over the past decade. The east-west interconnector has been a major success for EirGrid. Hence, I would like to take this opportunity to pay tribute to the outgoing chairperson, Ms. Bernie Gray, and to the other members of the board. The 450 staff in Dublin and Belfast are also to be commended on their commitment and performance.
Taking the chair of such an important company is quite a daunting prospect. However, I hope that by virtue of my experience and the skills I have developed, I will guide the board and company to further success in meeting the challenges that lie ahead in an ever-changing world. My experience has taught me that there are certain basic competencies which any chairperson of a company such as EirGrid should have. Leadership involves creating a vision for the organisation and unambiguously committing personally to that vision. It also means having the self-confidence to give effective team leadership and handle difficult board situations that may arise. The chair also needs to be able to challenge received wisdom, ask questions and analyse the answers, and to think strategically in terms of time, scope and context. Decisiveness and the ability to bring matters to a conclusion is another quality I have learned to be essential. An awareness of communications is also essential in the modern world. This involves listening and the ability to convey views and decisions clearly and concisely. I will strive to bring whatever attributes I have in these areas to the benefit of the EirGrid board and executive as it continues on its mission “to provide quality, efficient, independent transmission and market services for the benefit of everyone across the island of Ireland”.
EirGrid has a number of key priority objectives for the period ahead. The first of these is to operate a safe, reliable and economic electricity system across the island based on a competitive and sustainable wholesale market. Energy prices are one of the most critical elements of competitiveness, which is so important if we are to attract investment and make the kind of economic progress which is vital to the welfare of all Irish people. The second is the effectiveness and timely delivery of the grid infrastructure in a manner that protects the environment to the greatest extent possible and that encourages a more diversified and lower carbon electricity generation profile and, in the process, takes on board the views of local communities. No region of the island should be disadvantaged in competing for investment because of inadequate electricity infrastructure. A third objective would be to utilise and develop cutting edge technology to facilitate better integration of renewable, including small scale renewable, generation. All of these objectives must be pursued in a way that will enable us to achieve the mandatory 40% renewable target by 2020.
These objectives will require considerable resourcefulness and effort by the EirGrid board and staff over the next few years. None of them can be taken for granted. However, the second objective, namely, the delivery of grid infrastructure, is probably the most challenging at the moment, having regard to the level of public controversy currently surrounding it. At the opening of the east-west interconnector, the EU Energy Commissioner said that the need for energy infrastructure development is one of the biggest energy challenges facing the EU. Grid25 is EirGrid’s programme for the development of Ireland’s transmission system and I note that this document was endorsed specifically in the Government Policy Statement on the Strategic Importance of Transmission and Other Energy Infrastructure published in 2012. This document underlines the need and urgency for new energy infrastructure and the need for the public to have confidence that it adheres to the highest international standards of safety, health and environmental and visual impact. It further states that the Government has confidence that the national, regional and local planning framework and the Strategic Infrastructure Act provide the framework for ensuring that all necessary standards are met and that extensive public consultation with communities are key to creating public confidence. On the basis of my current knowledge, I have no reason to believe that EirGrid is pursuing the implementation of the Grid25 programme other than in accordance with these policies.
On taking up office as chairperson, I will work with the board to ensure the company plans these projects in an effective manner that minimises the effects on the visual environment and the natural and built heritage, and that gives the fullest assurance to people that there is no risk to their health or safety. I strongly subscribe to the idea that meaningful public consultation with local residents, property owners and communities is an indispensable element of this. I can assure the committee and, indeed, the public that all feedback received during each phase of the consultation will be given due consideration in the development of the projects. Furthermore, each project is reviewed at key milestones, taking into account the most up-to-date information available, in conjunction with the feedback from the consultations. Every issue raised during the consultation phases will be dealt with in a fully transparent manner. I also believe that the idea of community gain, as a means of compensating communities for unavoidable impacts, can be further developed to the benefit of local communities.
To be clear, I will not, of course, involve myself in individual planning applications, attend oral hearings or anything of that nature. It should also be noted that it is not EirGrid that will make the final decision on these projects. When EirGrid, after its extensive deliberations, has decided on the most appropriate solution in each case, it will make an application to An Bord Pleanála under the Strategic Infrastructure Act. During the preparatory stages, it would also have held pre-planning consultations with An Bord Pleanála. In accordance with established practice, An Bord Pleanála will then hold an oral hearing into the application, at which all objectors will be heard, before making its decision to approve, reject or require an amendment of the proposal. The board is the totally independent arbiter of these applications and it would be an offence in law for anybody to seek to influence its decision improperly.
I would like to take this opportunity to refute emphatically the reported suggestions that I would have a conflict of interest in taking up the position. A conflict of interest is defined as a situation where personal and professional interests might conflict with those of the organisation and its stakeholders. My chairpersonship of An Bord Pleanála ended in June 2011 and, since that date, I have had no involvement with the board, nor could I have. My standing with An Bord Pleanála is the same as any other citizen. There is no conflict between my personal interests and those of EirGrid arising out of my previous chairmanship of An Bord Pleanála. My motivation for agreeing to take on this position is one of public service. I believe that public service is a privilege. If the Government and the Minister consider that I can make a contribution, however small, to the welfare of the people of this island by taking this role, then I am pleased and honoured to do so.
I will carry into this the convictions that I have held throughout my career, serving the public in an honest and transparent manner, protecting our environment and heritage and using our resources carefully. I hope that I will be able to repay the trust that has been placed in me. Once again I thank the committee for hearing me. In my previous roles I have always striven for a good constructive working relationship with the relevant committees. I want it to be the same on this occasion. I would be keen to keep the committee informed of EirGrid’s progress and to hear its views from time to time on our performance.
I will be glad to take any questions or listen to any comments from the Chairman or the committee members. I am sure members will appreciate that at this stage my capacity for detail is limited. It is only a short time since I was asked to take up this position and I have not yet had a chance to attend a board meeting or to go into detail about the various issues affecting the company.
11:10 am
John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. O’Connor for his comments and statement. I note how he has referred to the controversy raging at the moment. That is important.
Before I hand over to members I would like to ask a couple of questions on that. Mr. O’Connor states that he strongly subscribes to the idea that meaningful public consultation with local residents, property owners and communities is an indispensable element of this. Over the past few weeks the committee has met representatives from many of those communities. They allege that real consultation has not happened, questions are unanswered and so on. I would like to hear Mr. O’Connor’s views on those comments.
Does Mr. O’Connor hold a particular view of how EirGrid should proceed with the Grid25 project, particularly in respect of placing the cables underground? Would he agree that in the view of many at this stage it is important that there be some independent cost-benefit evaluation for putting the cables underground? In his previous role as chairman of An Bord Pleanála he was very aware of the need to preserve the scenery of this country and to increase tourist numbers. Tourism is a very important aspect of this decision. I am sure there will be many questions about other areas but I would appreciate if Mr. O’Connor could answer those ones first.
Mr. John O'Connor:
I have always believed that public consultation is essential, especially in the modern world. The environment belongs to everybody and everybody should be entitled to express their view. I read the Official Report of the committee’s meetings with delegates from various places on this topic. I was somewhat disappointed. There was a range of views. Some people felt there had been reasonable consultation, others not. I would be disappointed to think that people felt that they did not get a hearing. Eirgird has an extensive consultation procedure. People should not jump to conclusions. All of those points have been made and issues raised during the consultations, including the contributions made at this committee.
Those contributions will all feed into the public consultation process. It will then be up to EirGrid to consider each issue and we will have to deal with each one in a fully transparent and honest manner and respond to them. I would not like to prejudice the response at this stage but Eirgird will have to deal with each issue raised. People should not rush to judgment about the consultation process until they at least read the report on it and what emerges from that. I ask people to wait and see what comes out in the reports of these various consultations and EirGrid’s response to them. They will then be in a better position to judge whether EirGrid has listened to them.
The issue of putting the cables underground in the Grid25 project was put strongly in the consultations and is being dealt with as we go along in the various stages of the reports and consultations. That is the way to deal with it. There has been much detailed study of underground cables for the North-South interconnector. I will not pass judgment on that because I am only coming into the job now. A lot has already happened. This issue has been put very forcibly and EirGrid will have to respond to it in whatever way is considered necessary to convince people that we are coming up with the best solution.
John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Would the independent information not be helpful to all sides in this debate?
John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I will call members in the following order: Deputies Dooley, Coffey and Colreavy, and after that I will alternate Government and Opposition members.
Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Will I have a few minutes to interact with Mr. O’Connor?
John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I will confine it to three or four minutes.
Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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We will keep the questions as brief as possible.
John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I will try to be fair to everybody. Non-members of the committee will come in afterwards but we will try to get through the questions as quickly as possible. Members should confine their contributions as much as possible to questions and Mr. O’Connor should answer the questions as quickly as possible so that he and all the members get their points of view across.
Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome Mr. O’Connor and thank him for his presentation. There is little doubt that he is a highly qualified professional. He has a considerable track record in public service. As he worked in the planning division of the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government, he was an obvious choice to be appointed to the independent role in An Bord Pleanála. I am not so sure, however, how he makes the jump from An Bord Pleanála to EirGrid, particularly at a time when EirGrid is involved under the strategic infrastructure legislation in its interaction with An Bord Pleanála.
Mr. O’Connor said that the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government approached him in respect of appointment to the pyrite board. How was he approached for this appointment?
Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Did he outline why he thought Mr. O'Connor was a suitable candidate?
Mr. John O'Connor:
I would not like to break confidence. There is nothing untoward in what the Minister said to me. I can outline it for the Deputy. The Minister said the offer was based on my experience in public service, chairing public companies, involvement in semi-State bodies and my knowledge of planning and environmental issues. I think he appreciates that I care deeply about the environment.
Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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At any point in that conversation did he mention Mr. O'Connor's experience as chairman of An Bord Pleanála?
Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. O'Connor is taking up the position at a very critical time, if it is ratified. He mentioned his definition of the conflict of interest but community groups are concerned about the perception that his unique knowledge and insight into the planning process, gained during his time in An Bord Pleanála, will impact on their ability to act in a balanced way against EirGrid in many of the decisions about the placing of pylons.
Can Mr. O'Connor outline how he intends to deal with that perception? How does he intend to remove himself? He said in his presentation that he would not attend public hearings. Some might say that is only the thin edge of the wedge, as there is the preparation of planning applications and the detailed work behind that. How does he intend to remove himself completely from the planning process as it relates to the roll out of the grid?
11:20 am
Mr. John O'Connor:
I said I would not involve myself in planning applications, making applications and in submissions relating to applications. However, as a member of the board, I will still have a role regarding the projects and approval of the projects at EirGrid level.
I listened to what the Deputy said. I tried to deal with it in my statement. An Bord Pleanála is a body that is beyond reproach. I left An Bord Pleanála two and a half years ago and I have no further involvement, as I said.
Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I will clarify that, lest my remarks be misinterpreted in any way. I am not questioning either Mr. O'Connor's integrity or the integrity of An Bord Pleanála. I am concerned about the unique knowledge Mr. O'Connor gained as chairman of An Bord Pleanála and the ability for that to be used in the context of the preparation of planning applications that will ultimately be submitted by EirGrid. There is a perception among community groups that they are working against not just the planning department of EirGrid in an effort to get balance and fairness, but also against a professional who has gained a unique insight into how decisions are taken. In my view, and in the view of most people, that puts EirGrid in a stronger and more dominant position than one might want it to have. How can we overcome this together? How can Mr. O'Connor assure us that he will absent himself, in all respects, from the preparation of all materials associated with the roll out of the grid, which is the most important issue on the platform at present?
Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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That is not the question. Mr. O'Connor is playing with words.
Mr. John O'Connor:
As chairman of the company, I cannot step away from the general policies and so forth of the company. That would not be right either. I do not think there is a conflict. I do not believe I have any particularly unique knowledge. Many people have knowledge of how An Bord Pleanála works and so forth.
Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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With respect, Mr. O'Connor was the chairman of An Bord Pleanála for 11 years and, as I acknowledged, he is a highly skilled, professional individual. However, a final point must be made. Mr. O'Connor said he has unique regard for the protection of our heritage and the environment. The fact is that, as chairman of EirGrid, under company law Mr. O'Connor's fiduciary duty is to the company. When it comes to the profit and loss of that entity, company law dictates in absolute terms Mr. O'Connor's requirement to protect the financial interests of the company. While on a personal basis Mr. O'Connor might have a view that the erection of a series of pylons impacts too negatively on the environment and he might not like that on an altruistic level, his fiduciary duty under company law requires him to look at what is in the best financial interests of EirGrid. I find it difficult that he used that as a ruse to satisfy us. I return again to the first question. It appears rather strange to me, many of my colleagues and many community groups that Mr. O'Connor's appointment is made at a time when EirGrid faces dealing with An Bord Pleanála in a very protracted and detailed way. Mr. O'Connor has not said anything today that will mollify the concerns and fears of community groups throughout the country, who see themselves fighting a battle against a large aggressor.
Mr. John O'Connor:
With regard to the legal position and the fiduciary duty, the Deputy is correct to an extent. However, the legislation governing EirGrid requires it to balance three things - the safe and secure supply of electricity, a competitive price for electricity and the environment. The three, including environmental protection, are mentioned in the statutory remit of EirGrid, so it is not quite as simple as the Deputy said.
Again, I can only give an assurance. I have too much respect for the process here. I have spent a large part of my career dealing with the environment and trying to defend it. That was often not very popular in certain quarters. If anybody thinks I am going to EirGrid to do something that would damage my lifetime's work, I would have grave difficulty with that. I am sorry that people would believe that is in any way an issue for me. All I can do is give an assurance that my behaviour in this will be absolutely above board. There will be no back door telephone calls. There could not be anyway. It is a statutory offence to try to influence An Bord Pleanála in any way. I hope members of the committee will take advantage of the situation to explain that I do not have any conflicts in this and try to assure people throughout the country, who might have been led to believe that there are some conflicts, that there will not be any underhand arrangement or anything of that nature. I would not take the job for a second if that was part of the agenda.
Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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To clarify-----
John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy is over time.
Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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-----I am certainly the last person to suggest that there would be anything underhand. However, given the fact that he has unique insight into and knowledge of the operation of An Bord Pleanála, if Mr. O'Connor, in pursuing his duties, involves himself in any way in the planning process of EirGrid - not just the preparation of a planning application or appearing at a public hearing but in any way - I do not know how that perception can be overturned in people's minds. I do not believe my party will be in a position to support his appointment as chairperson of EirGrid unless he can give a satisfactory answer and say he will dissociate himself in every respect from the planning process within EirGrid.
Mr. John O'Connor:
I do not know how one distinguishes between the planning process and the preparation of projects, decisions relating to projects and so forth. The planning application derives from the consideration of the project and decisions relating to the project. That takes into account costs, environment and everything else. EirGrid must make the best proposal it can, balancing all of these factors, and then send it forward. Once the proposal is decided, I will have no further involvement in the planning application in terms of making it, drafting it, the oral hearing, making observations, responding to observations and so forth. I will not be involved in that, as I tried to say in my presentation. However, I cannot say, as chairperson of the company, that I will have nothing to do with making decisions about the main issues around the proposals and the policies of the company which impact on those.
Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Therein lies the problem. In my view there is a mismatch with the skills set of Mr. O'Connor. Undeniably, he is highly qualified and professional, and I am not casting any aspersion on him as an individual, but there is a mismatch between his suitability and the role in EirGrid. For that reason, we will not be in a position, unfortunately, to support his appointment. I do not say that lightly and it is not personal to Mr. O'Connor. I consider him highly qualified and there is no question about his integrity, but I believe his skills and experience are a mismatch for the role he must now undertake. However, I wish him well, whatever the outcome.
Paudie Coffey (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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I have some questions about Mr. O'Connor's statement, before referring to some further questions. Hopefully, we will get some answers. Mr. O'Connor said in his statement that he believes EirGrid to be in the first rank of importance to the social and economic well-being of the island of Ireland. Will he explain why that is the case?
Mr. John O'Connor:
It is responsible for running the electricity grid system throughout the island, in both Northern Ireland and the Republic. It is also responsible for running a unified wholesale electricity market, which impacts on the price, reliability and availability of electricity for everybody in the country. It affects the life of every person on the island. It is also of huge importance in terms of economic competitiveness, which is crucial in all aspects of life, and particularly now. If our economy is to recover and prosper, we must have a competitive electricity supply.
It is one of the key competitive issues around any investment programme and so forth.
11:30 am
Paudie Coffey (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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Mr. O'Connor mentioned that he has served on three commercial semi-State boards - the Housing Finance Agency, Temple Bar Properties and the Dublin Docklands Development Authority, DDDA. During what years was he on the DDDA?
Paudie Coffey (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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Mr. O'Connor said he persuaded the Government at the time it was better to assign the functions under the critical infrastructure Act to An Bord Pleanála? Is he taking the credit for that alone or was he a major influence on the Government on that occasion?
Mr. John O'Connor:
I am not taking the credit for it alone but there were debates around it. There was a great deal of criticism of delays and uncertainty about critical infrastructure projects getting done and it was seen to be putting the country at a disadvantage competitively and so forth. There was a lot of debate for a few years about how this would be resolved. The position for all major infrastructure projects was that an application was made locally and invariably it was appealed. It ended with An Bord Pleanála and this involved a major lapse in time and many investors were unhappy about that. The decision was to have a one stage procedure and there was a view at the time, which was prominent in some quarters, that a new body should be set up to give consent quickly for these projects but I engaged with the Minister and I was able to persuade him that it would be better to expand the role of An Bord Pleanála and to assign that function to the board, which would give reasonably quick decisions on these projects. That has happened by and large.
Paudie Coffey (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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Mr. O'Connor has portrayed that he has an exceptional link from the formulation of the Planning and Development (Strategic Infrastructure) Act 2006 through to rulings by An Bord Pleanála and now to his position in EirGrid. That is an interesting link since its inception in 2006. He stated: "I am happy that my actions in the Department and in An Bord Pleanála, reflected in the decisions of that body during my period in the chair, bears out my beliefs". That relates to his special interest and deep appreciation of the environment and heritage. As chairman of EirGrid, I am sure he will agree, as with all corporate governance requirements, he will have to display exceptional competencies, expertise and leadership and he has outlined that.
He should also demonstrate competence with regard to good judgment. He stated there is no conflict of interest. Does he not recognise that there is wide public concern given his links to the formulation of the critical infrastructure legislation, his position of chairman of An Bord Pleanála and now his position as chairman designate of EirGrid? There is a lack of confidence among the public that there could be a fair and independent planning process given his links and involvement through the years. Essentially, the public might say Mr. O'Connor is turning from gamekeeper to poacher. It looks to the public like he was the protector of the environment and heritage but people might argue that he is becoming the poacher as chairman of EirGrid, which is submitting critical infrastructure applications to An Bord Pleanála.
Mr. John O'Connor:
I do not think so. I would be disappointed if that idea took hold. I am not turning from a gamekeeper to a poacher. I see part of my role in EirGrid as making sure the company does these projects in a way that is environmentally sustainable and respects heritage and so forth and to make sure the company proceeds on that basis and gives due weighting to these important considerations.
Paudie Coffey (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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Can Mr. O'Connor even understand why the public has this perception, given his links and involvement going back to the inception of the strategic infrastructure Act and his time in An Bord Pleanála? Can he not see why the public may think that, even though there might not be a solid foundation to it?
Paudie Coffey (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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Mr. O'Connor, therefore, thinks he is displaying good judgment to take up the position, despite wide public concern. I would like to elaborate on judgment because it is important. As chairman of An Bord Pleanála, he dealt with a case of interest to me and to the previous environment committee relating to the County Kildare landfill in Usk. The High Court ruled in 2006 that it found the process within An Bord Pleanála to be "unfair and displayed objective bias". Mr. O'Connor was chairman at the time. Did that statement cause a problem for him?
Mr. John O'Connor:
Naturally, I was not pleased with it but "objective bias" was based on the fact that An Bord Pleanála had previously made a decision on the case and it came back before the board again. It was considered by the High Court judgment that there was an element of prejudgement involved in that the board had made a decision before coming back to make a second decision on it. It was objective bias, not pure bias.
Paudie Coffey (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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The court stated the process within An Bord Pleanála was "unfair and displayed objective bias". This was under Mr. O'Connor's stewardship.
He referred to the importance of decisiveness in a leadership role. Can decisiveness sometimes happen in the interests of expediency and at the expense of good judgment?
Mr. John O'Connor:
It should not. As chairperson of a board, decisiveness is one of the qualities one must bring to the position. One must bring matters to a conclusion at some stage but one must also make sure that all factors are weighed up and due consideration is given to all relevant issues. It does not mean that one should rush to judgment or into decisions. It means one has to listen to views and to take them all on board before proceeding to make a decision. One is, therefore, balancing the need to take all issues into account and the need to move on to make decisions.
John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy is over time.
Paudie Coffey (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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I want to finish on an important issue relating to judgment in a senior role in a semi-State company. Mr. O'Connor's position was to more or less ignore the High Court ruling but the case was back before the court in 2009 and it was overturned a second time. It stated:
I challenged Mr. O'Connor about this at an Oireachtas committee hearing and he stated it was a wrong assumption by the court at that time. That is a serious charge for any individual to make about a High Court ruling. This is important information that the committee needs to consider.
In upholding the challenge by Usk and District Resident Association to the 2008 permission, Mr. Justice McMenamin was strongly critical of the board's failure to adhere to those recommendations, describing as unfathomable the reasoning for its decision. It was remarkable that the board, a statutory body entrusted with decision-making of national importance, when taking upon itself to ignore the spirit if not the letter of a High Court order appeared not to have taken special care to ensure what it did was fair.
Subsequently, the Courts Service took Mr. O'Connor up on his statement and said:
It was suggested that the trial judge made a wrong assumption as to whether the board had received legal advice prior to making the decision found to be unlawful because it was objectively biased. The remarks attributed to the chairman might be interpreted as meaning the judgement had been based on incorrect facts or inferences from the evidence. This is not so. In the case referred to, the judge concluded that a decision of An Bord Pleanála to grant planning permission for an engineered landfill would give rise to a reasonable apprehension that there had not been an impartial decision-making process. The board's decision was irrational and in excess of its jurisdiction and should be quashed.Mr. O'Connor stated to a committee that a High Court ruling had made a wrong assumption and he is back before us in a leadership role related to critical infrastructure. I question his judgment in the past and I question it now. What are his comments on that?
Paudie Coffey (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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Will Mr. O'Connor answer the question about whether he displayed good judgment based on his stewardship of An Bord Pleanála with regard to the infrastructure Act? My concern is that concerned citizens in County Kildare took a case, which was upheld, but Mr. O'Connor chose to ignore the first ruling of the High Court. The case went before the court again and it cost those citizens and the State a significant amount. That smacks of poor judgment.
Mr. O'Connor is going into a very important role. I ask him to clarify that. Does he agree that his actions in ignoring the High Court ruling when he was in An Bord Pleanála represented poor judgment and cost the State and its citizens a great deal of money?
11:40 am
Mr. John O'Connor:
I accept the judgment of the court. I do not want to go into this in too much detail at this stage, quite honestly. It is raking over an old situation. It is wrong to say the judgment of the court was ignored. That was not the case. Attention was certainly paid to the previous judgment. As I have said, I accept the judgment of the court.
Paudie Coffey (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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Mr. O'Connor accepts the judgment of the court, but he does not feel his judgment at that particular time was wrong. In that context, how appropriate is his appointment at this stage?
John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I think the matter has been given a sufficient airing.
Paudie Coffey (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Chairman.
Michael Colreavy (Sligo-North Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Mr. O'Connor for coming before the committee today. When people like Mr. O'Connor get a great deal of flak, it is sometimes because the Government has not been doing what it should be doing. Is he aware of any jurisdiction that has a land and landscape planning and management policy which guides the development of infrastructure like pylons, wind turbines, pipelines for bringing ashore offshore gas and hydraulic fracturing facilities, etc.? Is he aware of any jurisdiction that uses landscape planning and management systems to make an input as infrastructural developments are taking place?
Mr. John O'Connor:
Not really. Our local development plans include various designations, etc,. which have to be taken into account. In preparing to make a planning application for a project of this nature, EirGrid will certainly have to take account of various designations relating to landscapes, natural heritage areas and European directives, etc. All of those things have to be taken into account when a proposal for a planning application is being prepared. There is no landscape plan for the country. Such a plan has been mentioned for a number of years, but it has not yet appeared. I am not aware of any country that has a comprehensive landscape policy to the extent that it would answer all of these questions.
Michael Colreavy (Sligo-North Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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Does Mr. O'Connor believe such a strategy would help or hinder the development of infrastructure in this country?
Michael Colreavy (Sligo-North Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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In his submission, Mr. O'Connor said he understands the critical importance of "meaningful public consultation". Many people feel that the most critical question to be considered during the public consultation process is whether to locate these cables underground or overground. Rightly or wrongly, they feel that a decision in this regard was made in advance of the beginning of the consultation process. I think they are right because it has been said in several statements that these pylons will go overground. If that critical decision has been made in advance of the public consultation process, what is the point of that process?
Mr. John O'Connor:
I agree with the Deputy. If the issue is raised, it will have to be dealt with by the company before it makes its planning application. I do not know whether that will happen, as I have not been in the company for very long, but I would like to think it will happen. The manner in which the company will deal with the matter will depend on the manner in which it is raised and the issues behind it, etc. This issue must be considered in the context of the process of responding to the consultations.
Michael Colreavy (Sligo-North Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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There is a lack of good information on the issue of whether to place these cables overground or underground. We need information on the technical feasibility, the levels of technical difficulty and the comparative costs. Some serious economists are questioning the economic aspects of wind energy generation. They have pointed out that a public subsidy will continue to be required here and elsewhere into the future. Does Mr. O'Connor have any views on that?
Mr. John O'Connor:
No, I do not really have enough knowledge on it at this stage. I am aware that this country is committed, under EU directives, to ensure 40% of electricity is generated from renewable sources by 2020. The achievement of that target by this country is mandatory. The strengthening of the grid system will be required if it is to be achieved.
Michael Colreavy (Sligo-North Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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Is it wise to be exporting our green energy to Britain?
Michael Colreavy (Sligo-North Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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Surely they will have an impact on the ability of Ireland Inc. to hit its targets.
Michael Colreavy (Sligo-North Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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Does Mr. O'Connor have continuing membership of any State, semi-State or private company, other than the pyrite resolution board?
Michael Colreavy (Sligo-North Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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Has Mr. O'Connor's remuneration package been agreed yet?
Michael Colreavy (Sligo-North Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. O'Connor has not yet asked.
Michael Colreavy (Sligo-North Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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Could Mr. O'Connor develop his views on small-scale renewable energy generation? I am aware of a number of projects that offered fairly exciting prospects for renewable energy, but were killed by the cost of connecting to the national grid. Those costs meant it was out of the question for the projects to be pursued. Those who try to develop small generation projects feel they are not taken seriously. It seems that the State does not fully appreciate the potential benefit of small-scale generation to the wider national picture.
Mr. John O'Connor:
I understand that EirGrid is anxious to do whatever it can in this regard. The ESB distribution system also comes into play here. It is rather complicated. I have heard that EirGrid is rather anxious to accommodate smaller generation, etc. I think that will be a bigger factor in the future. It is already a bigger factor in some other countries. EirGrid is trying to develop the technology as best it can. Apparently, technology in this area is advancing quite rapidly. EirGrid is doing everything it can to keep abreast of and develop this technology. It has various relationships with technology people to that end. I think I would be on the same wavelength as the Deputy when it comes to doing whatever we can to improve the grid and the distribution system to ensure small generation can be accommodated.
Michael Colreavy (Sligo-North Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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I would like to ask my second last question. People get really annoyed when self-evident truths are dismissed by spokespersons for energy companies. A spokesperson said on television there is no evidence that a pylon beside a house reduces the market value of the house, but that is evidently nonsense. I would like Mr. O'Connor to develop the point he made about recognising some means of dealing with property devaluations. If it is decided to pursue the overground option, it is inevitable that there will be pylons beside people's houses.
John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I would like the Deputy to ask his final question so that Mr. O'Connor can answer the two of them together.
Michael Colreavy (Sligo-North Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. I have a series of final questions. I am not sure which is the most important one.
John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy has five seconds to make a good judgment in that regard.
Michael Colreavy (Sligo-North Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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I still need to get an answer to the question I asked about the conflicting evidence regarding the technical and economic aspects of undergrounding and overgrounding. How will that information be gathered, validated and presented?
11:50 am
Michael Colreavy (Sligo-North Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. O'Connor should ask his spokespersons not to say that there is no evidence that this happens because it undermines any contribution they may make.
Mr. John O'Connor:
I hear what the Deputy is saying. Devaluation is a topic I presume EirGrid will need to deal with in response to the various issues raised in the consultation process, such as how it deals with the devaluation or the impact on land and so forth. I do not have the answers to how this will be addressed but it will have to be addressed.
Deputy Colreavy asked about undergrounding which has been the subject of a number of studies. A transparent response will be required and with proper information on each case where it is proposed to be used. This is a matter that must be addressed because it cannot be skirted around.
Michael Colreavy (Sligo-North Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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Some people are concerned about Mr. O'Connor's previous role vis-à-vis his current role. Can the terms of reference be examined-----
John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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That matter has been raised already, Deputy Colreavy, and many other members are waiting to speak.
Michael Colreavy (Sligo-North Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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In an effort to be helpful, I ask if the terms of reference for the post could be examined to ensure there is no potential conflict of interest.
John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Mr. O'Connor is not the person to examine them. Deputy Colreavy has raised the point but I want to be fair to everyone.
Ann Phelan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Labour)
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I will not speak about the appointment of Mr. O'Connor but his appointment was not greeted very well on the ground because the public perception is that his appointment has now weighted EirGrid against the community. As public representatives we find it very difficult to deal with that argument.
There is no confidence whatsoever in the public consultation process carried out by EirGrid. I refer to some of the comments from people whom I met and e-mailed. When they want to speak about the underground issue, they are being told, "You wouldn't really understand it". I do not regard this as an answer but this has been reported to me by people who are engineers and who are equally qualified in their field.
Is Mr. O'Connor in a position to give us a commitment that EirGrid will seriously consider an independent study of the cost-benefit analysis of overground versus underground? The question of whether the consultation process was good, bad or indifferent has completely moved on. The question now is overground versus underground.
We are hearing that EirGrid must upgrade the system and that this will mean jobs in major towns along the route. Now I hear that if we were to re-establish the sugar industry in Carlow, we will be unable to have a supply from this 400 kv line to supply a factory there. Why would the local people buy into the argument about job creation if we cannot get a connection? I do not understand that.
I reiterate the point made by Deputy Colreavy. Last weekend a leading economist questioned how this policy can make economic sense. We need to be given a position on that.
Mr. John O'Connor:
Deputy Phelan has raised a number of questions. If EirGrid personnel responded to questions from people by saying, "You wouldn't understand that", I would have great difficulty with such a response and I do not regard it as an appropriate response to a serious observation or consultation. If I take up the position I will certainly try to ensure that it is not repeated and that we have a more understanding and sympathetic approach to people who go to the trouble of making submissions and communicating in the consultation process.
I certainly would not rule out having an independent study of undergrounding. This issue has been raised quite forcibly in the context of the consultation period and EirGrid must respond to that. It is quite possible that one of the responses will be something along the lines Deputy Phelan mentioned.
Ann Phelan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Labour)
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Is Mr. O'Connor in a position to address the issue about the jobs?
Ann Phelan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Labour)
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The problem is that misinformation is created when a vacuum arises. It is said that a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still. We really have a job to build up public confidence in EirGrid because in my view that confidence is at an all-time low. I certainly do not envy the chairman his position in trying to rebuild it even from that level.
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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I am delighted to be part of this process of engagement with the chairman-designate. I welcome our guest and I thank him for his efforts to answer the questions from members. However, his answers to some of the questions leave more questions unanswered. I note he has a very interesting career roadmap charted through his career in various Departments and in the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government in particular. To quote himself, he says he was able to persuade the Government that it would be better to assign the functions of setting up a new strategic infrastructural consent body. This was then tucked in nicely under the wing of An Bord Pleanála and he was happy to be there for 11 or 12 years. I do not question his professional qualifications but I question his role in advising at a very senior level in the Department. He has been honest and bold enough to say here that he was able to persuade the Government. He is obviously a very influential person in that he was able to persuade the then Government to assign this function. Us lesser mortals have to apply to the county council and if we fail there, we must apply to An Bord Pleanála.
I have been aghast on several occasions to see a report from an official of An Bord Pleanála who examined a file and inspected a building but whose report was overturned by An Bord Pleanála - turned upside down. Yet, Mr. O'Connor says he has the utmost confidence in the board but I do not have the utmost confidence in An Bord Pleanála. It pays planners to examine objectively planning proposals and the situation on the ground and then their reports are rubbished much of the time because the board decides to act in a certain way. Mr. O'Connor was in charge of the board so I level those charges at his good self in his previous role up to 2011.
Looking at the new situation, how can the people have faith in this process when we do not have that strategic infrastructure board separate from An Bord Pleanála? It is now under An Bord Pleanála. Mr. O'Connor knows every nook and cranny in An Bord Pleanála - God bless him for that - and what better person for EirGrid to have. He states he has distanced himself from the appointment process. The taxpayer will be paying the money for whatever role Mr. O'Connor has. He said that An Bord Pleanála took into account the local development plans and EU plans on strategic infrastructure. When I was a member of the local authority in south Tipperary, we designated parts of south Tipperary as being unsuitable for wind energy. Certain wind energy firms appealed the decision to An Bord Pleanála and drove a coach and four through the decision - under the stewardship of Mr. O'Connor. The planning permission was granted, despite our county development plan. It allowed for wind developments in Dualla, in view of the Rock of Cashel and a sub-station, against the express wishes of the south Tipperary county development plan and many local residents. Therefore, I have no faith in his replies to previous questions.
Mr. O'Connor faces a large problem when taking up this job, as he does not know what the pay is and he has not asked about it. I am glad that he can be in such a comfortable position at his stage in life. I am not being ageist, but I would have preferred a younger man with an independent perspective of this sensitive issue. Mr. O'Connor has had a good career in the public service and it is time that he was thinking about the green grass rather than going on to new fields.
What is Mr. O'Connor's opinion of EirGrid's spokesperson perpetuating a lie on RTE's "Prime Time"? Mr. Fintan Slye stated that EirGrid had advertised in the Dungarvan Leader, which it clearly had not. He admitted later in the studio that it had not. That lie was put out over the airwaves to a large number of people. There is no faith in EirGrid's sham, token consultation. This day last week was the closing date, but it was extended for five weeks to 7 January. When I welcomed that extension, the Taoiseach told me in the Dáil Chamber that the Minister had instructed EirGrid. The previous week, the Minister stated that he had nothing to do with EirGrid and could not interfere in any form. It suits them when they want to lie on one side of the bed or the other.
There is no faith in the process because of untruths and spin. Deputy Ann Phelan mentioned connectivity in our town of Clonmel as regards strategic infrastructure. We were told that our line would not benefit whatsoever and could not be used, but the project will go straight across our Golden Vale into Wexford and John Bull's country to meet commitments under the Kyoto Agreement on fossil fuel emissions, etc. It is a naked rape of our countryside for big business. We have had enough of that. Mr. O'Connor saw enough of it. He was in enough bodies to have shouted "Stop". I do not know whether he did over the years at the Dublin Docklands Development Authority, DDDA, and other places.
We have had enough of career civil servants and others plundering our country. Mr. O'Connor is not fit for the job. I am opposing his nomination. It is not personal, but this is a poacher becoming a game keeper. His career has been a merry-go-round as far as I am concerned. He is from the south of the country like myself, but it is time that he retired back there and stood with the people instead of milking the system.
12:00 pm
John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Any interview at this committee is based on qualifications for the job. We should not make personal comments about age.
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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I asked about qualifications.
John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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A number of comments were made. I remind members that questions need to be about qualifications, not about-----
Luke Flanagan (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Independent)
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It needed to be repeated. Well said. Spot on.
John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----age or anything else.
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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Can I get a reply? It was a serious question.
John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Of course the Deputy can get a reply. Anyone can be challenged on qualifications, conflicts of interest and so on. That is fair enough, but what is not challengeable is a person's age.
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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People are asking these questions. Why I am here? I am a Teachta Dála, a messenger for the people.
John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I am ruling on this matter. Mr. O'Connor should answer the general questions.
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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I am a messenger of the people. The Chairman should not forget that. People have been trodden on.
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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I never said Mr. O'Connor did.
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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No. I never said that.
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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Fact.
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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I got no answers. Some of my points obviously were not questions. Mr. O'Connor has made an alarming statement that he was not aware or was not involved. Surely when he was asked by the Minister to take up this role, he troubled himself to inquire into what was happening. There is no point in saying that he was not aware of what happened during the consultation. He was asked to do this responsible job. He did not ask for it and he did not ask about remuneration. I accept that he does not need it or might not take it, but he is surely entitled to brief himself on such a public role and find out what it entails. Does he take jobs without considering them? We know this will happen anyway. It has been decided.
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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That is what I said.
Mr. John O'Connor:
I have done a certain amount of preparation in so far as I could in the time available, but I could not be answerable for what happened in Dungarvan or wherever. If I take up this job, I will be glad to return to the committee and deal with those details at a later stage when I have accountability for them.
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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I was not asking about Dungarvan. I was inquiring as to the role of EirGrid's CEO that Mr. O'Connor was taking over and its functions. I was not talking about the Dungarvan Observer.
John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The position is chairperson.
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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Yes. I am sorry.
Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. O'Connor for attending. In the event that he became chairman of EirGrid, what would he deem to be appropriate action for him to take if it came to light that a consultation process was a sham?
Mr. John O'Connor:
I would have to review what happened. We would need to go into the details for feedback and determine whether that would be reflected by re-opening the consultation or whatever. That is something that I would have to consider. I would be determined to ensure that there was a proper consultation and, equally important, a proper report and feedback showing that all of the issues raised in the consultation were dealt with honestly and transparently. Each project has a number of consultation phases. Hopefully, if there are defects in consultation at one phase, it can be repaired at a later stage.
Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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Apart from re-opening the consultation, is there any action that Mr. O'Connor would deem necessary as a chairperson of a State company, knowing that a consultation has not engaged with the stakeholders properly? Would he take any action other than to re-open the consultation?
Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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From his previous experience, would Mr. O'Connor not deem that the ultimate deciding person, the chief executive officer or a person at that level, should at least be held to account? I am not from the areas affected, but I sat through all of the committee proceedings on this issue. From a State company's point of view, listening to what people from the affected areas had to say was cringeworthy. Do the current chairperson and CEO not have a case to answer for what they have done in this case?
Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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I will move on to an issue relating to Mr. O'Connor's previous role as chairperson of An Bord Pleanála. Does he recall the number of instances in which inspectors recommended a particular action to the board in respect of a planning application and the number of times that he, as chairperson of the board, asked that the decision be overturned?
Mr. John O'Connor:
The chairperson is only one member of the board and does not overturn decisions. The board makes a collective decision to overturn something. During my period, an inspector's report was overturned in approximately 12% of cases, sometimes to grant permission where a refusal had been recommended or vice versa.
Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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This matter probably has a bearing on the consultation undertaken by the company to which Mr. O'Connor may be assigned as chairperson. If an inspector examines a planning application on the ground, reviews the local authority's file, considers the local community's input and makes an assessment and recommendation to the board, which is not on the ground and does not put the same amount of time into the application as the inspector, surely be to God it is a slap in the face to the inspector for the board to overrule his or her decision in 12% of cases.
Mr. John O'Connor:
No. The inspectors accept it. That is the law. The decision is made by the board.
I do not know whether we should be discussing this sort of detail about An Bord Pleanála but I will try to answer the question anyway. The law gives the board power to make the decision and the inspector has an input into that decision. If legislation was changed to give power to inspectors to make these decisions that may be what the Deputy is calling for, but there is a board to make decisions.
12:10 pm
Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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I have one final question. Would Mr. O'Connor like to live beside a pylon?
Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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That is okay. I thank Mr. O'Connor.
John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Four members of the committee have yet to ask questions, so I will take them in a group. I ask them to confine themselves to a couple of minutes each. I will call Deputy McEntee followed by Deputy Harrington, Senator Whelan and Senator Brennan.
Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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I welcome Mr. O'Connor to the committee and wish to reflect on some issues raised in his presentation. First, a key priority of EirGrid is to operate a safe, reliable and economic electric system. Health and safety issues have arisen in recent months and more so in recent weeks. As Eirgrid's chairman designate, will Mr. O'Connor investigate these matters further since they have upset many people? Such issues need to be addressed further. EirGrid says it has investigated these matters, but I do not think it has.
EirGrid has done a lot of work on pyrite. I have been dealing with this matter and I am glad to hear that it will not interfere with EirGrid's work. Should delays occur with the pyrite legislation, are any provisions being made to ensure that there is no overlap?
EirGrid has consistently denied that upgrading the system is connected to wind energy. What is Mr. O'Connor's opinion on that?
The need for public consultation has been mentioned by many people. As regards the North-South interconnector, we have already dealt with such matters involving Cavan, Monaghan and Meath. We have clearly seen that it does not work because after five years of public consultation, including oral hearings, nothing had changed. The North-South interconnector is now at the final stage so what is Mr. O'Connor's input and how can he help in that regard? We do not need a review to see that it does not work, so we need to have action now.
Mr. John O'Connor:
Deputy McEntee raised the issue of health, which has been raised at all stages along the way with various projects and their consultation phases. It is a strongly debated issue and, as far as I understand it, the area has been well researched. There are clear EU and other international guidelines to which EirGrid is adhering by some margin. The matter has been raised and will be raised again in the planning application for the North-South interconnector. It will have to be answered to the satisfaction of An Bord Pleanála in the planning application. It is a matter of how EirGrid can give the necessary assurance to people that there are no health implications. EirGrid is a public company and could not possibly put itself in a position where it was affecting public health if there was any risk of that nature. This will certainly have to be dealt with to ease people's fears.
Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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EirGrid is obviously adhering to research that has been conducted at EU level, but no actual study has been undertaken here in Ireland. Is this something that could possibly be looked at by EirGrid? In his capacity as chairman designate, could Mr. O'Connor raise this and bring it to EirGrid's attention?
Mr. John O'Connor:
At the moment there is some uncertainty over which Government authority could rule on this issue. It is in a state of flux. EirGrid would certainly like to see that matter resolved so that accountability and responsibility clearly rests with somebody who can give definitive rulings on the health issue and non-ionising radiation.
Deputy McEntee mentioned pyrite and, as she knows, I have been putting quite a lot of effort into this question this year. Regretfully, it has been a bit slower in coming to fruition than I would have liked. The legislation is being actively worked on at the moment, however. I understand that the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Hogan, is pretty close to bringing it forward. That will give us a framework to start accepting applications from people whose homes have been affected by pyrite with a view to getting remedial work done next year.
John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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There is some telephone interference.
Mr. John O'Connor:
There is just one other point. Deputy McEntee asked about wind energy. Some of the Grid 25 projects are closely related to wind energy and there is a mandatory requirement to meet the 40% target by 2020. To be clear, the wind energy export project has nothing to do with the Grid 25 proposals which are for the all-island situation.
Noel Harrington (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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I welcome Mr. O'Connor. We are the only two Cork men in the room that I know of. It is unusual that there are not more of us. Can Mr. O'Connor expand on his previous experience in the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government, particularly in planning? Effective and meaningful consultation is a significant part of planning, including local authority or regional development plans and the spatial strategy. In previous generations, it may not have been such a key issue. I note from Mr. O'Connor's statement that during his tenure in the Department's planning section he put forward many innovative measures on policy and consultation. Can he expand on how that might be improved, given what he has heard about the EirGrid situation and what seem to be less than meaningful consultations with stakeholders and the communities involved?
When a community or individual consults with the process it is not just a question of listening and noting, but there should also be a written response. In his opening statement, Mr. O'Connor also said he played a part in introducing innovative policies to counteract social segregation in housing, reform building society legislation, the modernisation and consolidation of planning, spatial strategy and water legislation. Would that also include technological innovations? Technology in 2013 might have changed by the time a project comes to fruition in 2016 or 2017. Will Mr. O'Connor ensure that such innovation will enable EirGrid to use the most up-to-date technological advances? We have listened to some of the resistance to underground cables, for example.
Mr. O'Connor said he was asked to become the chairperson of the EirGrid board. He may now feel that he has accepted a hospital pass from the Department on this one. I have a concern which I hope Mr. O'Connor can allay. The current secretary general of the Department previously held the position that Mr. O'Connor also held in the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government - that is, assistant secretary for water services. Can Mr. O'Connor deal with my concern about his tenure versus that individual's tenure in the Department? Did Mr. O'Connor know him or work with him professionally within the Department? What was the relationship and did he report to Mr. O'Connor's section? I would like to eliminate that concern of mine.
John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Before asking Mr. O'Connor to respond, I will take Senator Whelan and Senator Brennan. We can thus group the questions, if that is okay, and we will get to all those who want to ask questions.
12:20 pm
John Whelan (Labour)
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I will be as prompt as I can. I welcome Mr. O'Connor to the meeting. I hope he is aware that my opposition to his appointment is not any personal matter. I have no doubts about his personal and professional integrity and his credentials. I am totally uncomfortable, however, because I believe that there is a conflict of interests. I do not mean a personal one whereby he would take personal advantage for personal gain. That is where we are losing sight of the point. The dictionary definition that he read out at the start is probably in keeping with the Minister’s definition of no conflict of interest. The Minister categorised my concerns in that regard as woolly-headed nonsense. I am not too woolly-headed, as Mr. O’Connor can see, and I will try not to be too nonsensical.
As Mr. O’Connor is aware from his work in the planning sector, we have to take into account the cumulative effect of what is proposed in planning terms. He comes on board as someone who knows the workings and machinations of Eirgrid inside out and has great expertise and knowledge gained over a long period. He is not the only person in play in this fundamental and strategic planning process that now exercises virtually the entire country. There are also former senior executives at the highest level. Out of respect for the Chairman of the committee I will not name people who are not here to defend themselves but I could easily do so because it is a statement of fact and I would gladly do so outside, but out of respect for due process I will not. Senior executives who have recently retired from Eirgrid have moved onto the boards of private wind farm development companies. The Chairman of another State agency, Sustainable Energy Ireland, which advises Government on energy policy is on the board of another private wind farm development company.
The public is losing confidence in a process where it feels that the deck is already stacked against it with what it sees as the convergence of an old boys’ network, an inner circle and circle of friends which individually may not amount to a personal conflict of interest but whose cumulative effect is that there are people who have worked hand-in-hand and hand-in-glove with each other over a long period. I recently attended a Bord Pleanála Eirgrid hearing in Portlaoise which went on for six days where the ordinary residents of Ratheniska and Timahoe - housewives, farmers and rural residents - were ranged against 21 members of a legal team and technical experts all with the resources of the State at their backs. Now the former Chairman of An Bord Pleanála is joining that team against housewives and farmers who already have good grounds to doubt the integrity of the consultation process.
I began engaging with Eirgrid approximately three years ago. I was defending the development of the local infrastructure and the fact that we had to invest in order to create jobs and sustain economic growth but I cannot believe the manner in which I was deceived. The consultation process amounts to a grand deception without any integrity. I was personally misled on several significant points to the extent that the goodwill and reputation that the ESB had built up with the rural communities over decades is now squandered. I would not believe the Lord’s Prayer from an Eirgrid senior management official. That is not hearsay. I am speaking from my own direct personal experience. I was misled in a grand way. I asked specific questions about why we needed to build what Eirgrid called the Ratheniska sub-station at Culnabacky, which is on the site where the National Ploughing Championships took place this year. It told me that it was to strengthen the grid to the south east and that this was required for jobs. It tried to suggest that Glanbia would run out of power if it was not done but it did not tell me that Glanbia is not even on the grid. Glanbia supplies electricity to the grid and does not take any power from it. It also suggested that Waterford, Kilkenny and Carlow would not experience economic growth and job investment if the line from Laois to Kilkenny, the so-called Laois-Kilkenny reinforcement line, is not built. It did not tell me about the new line that it is bringing up through the middle of Carlow-Kilkenny. It drip feeds piecemeal information which wrong-foots those concerned about what is happening.
No one has explained adequately to me why the Ratheniska super-hub has the capacity for 17 lines while the station into which it runs in Ballyragget has the capacity for only one. Eirgrid insists that this has nothing to do with wind energy or the development of wind farms in the midlands. There is a conflict of interest, not necessarily in respect of Mr. O’Connor but with all these senior executives swapping chairs and positions on related bodies that ultimately have the decision-making capacity to drive this forward, and with access to the Minister and the Department to do so.
John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Senator has gone over five minutes.
John Whelan (Labour)
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I have to suggest respectfully that Eirgrid does not uphold standards and best international practice and neither has An Bord Pleanála, even on Mr. O’Connor’s watch. The period from 2000 to 2011 saw some of the worst planning excesses that ever blighted our towns and cities. If the Financial Regulator was asleep at the wheel so too was An Bord Pleanála as the planning regulator. I cannot believe that we built a motorway the length of the country, all the way from Dublin to Cork and did not even put a toilet or a filling station on it, and that is regarded as exemplary practice and planning. Now we have to go back and undo that harm.
Does Mr. O’Connor have an open mind? I do not know why Eirgrid wants to double the capacity of the grid. What are the grounds for that? Does it expect an economic boom that no-one else knows about? We need to upgrade and strengthen the grid but not to double its capacity for a country of 4 million. This is not Germany. I believe this is a Trojan horse for private wind farm developers.
I was glad that Mr. O'Connor said that he would not like to live beside a pylon or I presume a turbine. Will he commit, if he takes up the post, despite the reservations expressed by many sitting on this committee, to subjecting Eirgrid to an objective and independent review, feasibility study, audit and cost-benefit analysis, taking into account that he accepts, which Eirgrid has not done to date, that were he in proximity to any of these monstrosities it would devalue his home? That must be taken into account and not just brushed aside.
Terry Brennan (Fine Gael)
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I apologise for being late. I welcome Mr. O’Connor. I have read his statement since coming in here. Many of my colleagues have spoken about consultation or lack of consultation and I endorse the view that Eirgrid’s consultation process is less than adequate. All communities, no matter in what part of the country, whether Meath, Monaghan, Cork, Wexford or Carlow, cannot be wrong in their assessment of the consultation process. Information was not forthcoming and to date is not forthcoming.
Mr. O’Connor has been chosen for this job no doubt because of his previous experience in the public service and An Bord Pleanála. I am sure he has encountered many environmental issues in his career, in scenic areas such as my area of the Ravenshill Valley where the M1 went north of Dundalk to Belfast and divided not only communities but families.
Mr. O'Connor mentioned pyrite issues and the part he has played. I have no doubt he is aware of many communities that are concerned in regard to the proposals for the infrastructure. I have to admit I believe the infrastructure is required for future generations, for jobs and for industry. If I could be personal and ask Mr. O'Connor, from his experience in An Bord Pleanála - perhaps he was asked this question but I would like to ask it again - does he have any preference at this stage for overhead versus underground? I am not challenging him on technological grounds; I am talking about the aesthetics and community concerns. Perhaps it is not a fair question for Mr. O'Connor, as chair, at this stage but can he give this committee any idea what EirGrid's preference is in regard to overhead versus underground in any part of the infrastructure proposals?
12:30 pm
Mr. John O'Connor:
Deputy Harrington asked about consultation. In a way, he answered the question himself and I agree with his answer. Consultation must be meaningful. It involves listening to people, showing that one is listening to people, responding to people and dealing with the points they raise. That is what I understand consultation to be and what I think it should be. I am disappointed to hear comments here that this does not seem to be the perception. If I take up this position, it is something I will certainly be following up on. There is no doubt there are lessons to be learned. Obviously, there is fair consensus on this issue here today, and some of it certainly cannot be ignored.
The Deputy raised the issue of technology. As far as I can gather, this is very much on the agenda of EirGrid. It is fair to say it is very technologically advanced and it is fully up to speed with cutting-edge technology and so forth, and how technology can impact on the projects it develops. Part of its commitment is that, at each stage of these projects, there will be a review on the basis of the current up-to-date information. That information could relate to technology, to need or to other issues that are evolving. As far as I am concerned, the projects are there and were put into Grid25, but at each stage, as we go along, they have to be reviewed and decisions have to be continued on the basis of the most up-to-date information, including in regard to technology.
The Deputy raised issues in regard to relationships I might have with a senior official in the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources. Did I pick him up right on that?
Noel Harrington (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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The current Secretary General, who was appointed last July, was appointed as assistant secretary for water services in the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government, a post Mr. O'Connor previously held.
Noel Harrington (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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It is a concern that Mr. O'Connor might clear up. Did he have a working relationship with the current Secretary General in the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government?
Noel Harrington (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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Did he report to Mr. O'Connor?
Mr. John O'Connor:
He did for a short period, yes. In answer to the question, that is all I can say about it.
I will move on to Senator Whelan's points. I am disappointed Senator Whelan feels that the consultation was not what it should be, and he had very strong criticisms of it. This is something I will certainly take away with me and which I will consider. I would say to the Senator that, at the end of the day, it is An Bord Pleanála that decides these matters. Whether people go on boards or off boards, or anything like that, there are certain rules in regard to all of these things, including what people do after they finish in the public service and so forth. I have not got any private sector boards or anything like that.
An Bord Pleanála is the ultimate deciding authority. Its process is open and transparent, and fully participative. No matter what the EirGrid consultation may or may not do, everybody has a right to submit an observation to An Bord Pleanála when the application goes in to it. There are procedures for doing that. Furthermore, they have an opportunity to go to the hearing and make their case. Again, we have to bear in mind at all times that there is an independent, quasi-judicial process to deal with these issues which has existed for many years. Overall, while people criticise its decisions from time to time, I believe it has stood the test of time. Going back to my own time there, when people from other jurisdictions come here and look at An Bord Pleanála, they see it as a kind of model for dealing with some of these issues.
The Senator said he was misled but that is all to do with perceptions around the consultation process and the information that was given and so forth.
John Whelan (Labour)
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With no disrespect, it is more than a perception.
John Whelan (Labour)
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What about the question on the conflict of interest?
John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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There are four other members waiting and we have to be out of the room shortly after 1 p.m. I want to make sure everybody gets in.
John Whelan (Labour)
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Is there an answer to that point about the cumulative effect of so many people who are former colleagues and colleagues moving from the boards? The interaction between EirGrid, An Bord Pleanála and the wind farm companies, in my opinion, has gone off the charts.
Mr. John O'Connor:
There is no interaction with An Bord Pleanála, which is an independent body that has to act independently and in a quasi-judicial manner. If anyone has any qualms or feels An Bord Pleanála is not doing the job in the way it is meant to do it, there are judicial review proceedings available to them. There are safeguards in the system. This is the system that has been set up by these Houses and, unless it is changed, it is the system we have to rely on. We have to have faith that it will deliver decent decisions for the benefit of the public.
The Senator mentioned the issue of An Bord Pleanála being asleep at the wheel in terms of the planning that happened in recent years. First, only about 7% of local planning decisions are appealed to An Bord Pleanála, but there are the criticisms the Senator mentions, and planning certainly has to look at itself and see how it performed during the boom. I have no problem with that. However, the Senator might recall that, throughout that period, as chairman of An Bord Pleanála, I raised in the annual report some of these issues that subsequently proved to be very problematic. I raised them because I could see what was happening at local level from what was coming before the board. I raised issues such as the way small towns and villages were being swamped with huge estates, the standard of apartments and so forth. I raised all of those issues going back over the years of my time there.
I have already dealt with the question of the valuation of property. It is something raised repeatedly in the consultations and it is something that will have to be addressed by EirGrid when it is making its application.
Senator Brennan has the same problem with regard to consultation. I take his points about the concerns of communities and the need to respect communities. I agree with him this is something we have to bear in mind.
Terry Brennan (Fine Gael)
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It must be meaningful and honest consultation.
12:40 pm
Mr. John O'Connor:
I hear what the Senator is saying. With regard to a preference for overhead or underground, at this stage of my involvement I do not have a view. It is something I will examine but, again, the issue has been raised and it must be answered objectively and comprehensively by EirGrid before it makes the application.
Terry Brennan (Fine Gael)
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To be fair, Mr. O'Connor persuaded the Government to give the job to An Bord Pleanála and this new strategic infrastructure consent body, and now he is being appointed as chairperson of EirGrid. Surely at this stage he can give us some indication, as chairman, of what he would like to see happen. Would he like to see communities fighting with each other?
Terry Brennan (Fine Gael)
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In Mr. O'Connor's opinion, what percentage chance do they have of having this important infrastructure put underground?
John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Four non-members of the committee wish to speak, Deputies Deering, Heydon, Luke 'Ming' Flanagan and Phelan. There are about 12 minutes left so I ask them to confine their questions to two minutes to give Mr. O'Connor an opportunity to answer.
Pat Deering (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I welcome Mr. O'Connor. He is obviously a career civil servant with vast experience in many areas. With the greatest respect and without being ageist, he is coming to the twilight of his career now. Does he think it is appropriate that somebody who has received a golden handshake of €346,617 and a gold-plated pension of €121,539 should consider themselves up to the job at this stage? Is it appropriate that he take up this job, considering that he has no experience in this area and he was asked to do the job? Does he think he should have thought more about it before this matter arose? There was always going to be potential for a perceived conflict of interest in the matter. In view of the 11 years he served with An Bord Pleanála, there was going to be a perceived conflict of interest because this issue was bound to go to An Bord Pleanála for planning permission. Mr. O'Connor said that the Minister asked him to come on board as chairman because of his experience in planning. I am almost certain those are the words he used. Mr. O'Connor can correct me if I am wrong.
John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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He will have an opportunity to answer that, but I will first let the other Deputies put their questions.
Pat Deering (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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It would be obvious from those remarks that there would be a perception that Mr. O'Connor would be useful to get this project over the line, if I can put it that way.
It could be argued that the 11 years during which Mr. O'Connor served as chairman of An Bord Pleanála were the 11 years that led to the country's current downfall, from a building point of view. To borrow a phrase used at the weekend, we went from boom to Bert. What legacy issues does Mr. O'Connor see and what regrets does he have in that regard?
I also wish to raise the concern about lack of information. When there is a lack of information, a vacuum is created. That has happened on this matter. There is no meaningful consultation. The reason for that is that the vast majority of people only became aware of this matter in the last number of weeks, even though EirGrid would argue that it opened offices 18 months ago and held a number of meetings. However, until lines appeared on a map, nobody was aware of the issue. That is where we have a problem at present.
I have a final point and Mr. O'Connor can correct me if I am wrong. During his tenure in An Bord Pleanála there was one good thing from the Celtic tiger economy, the motorway structure. This might not have been in his remit but there is a great deal of talk at present to the effect that consideration should have been given to putting the lines under the motorway or beside it at the time. It would have been appropriate. Was there any formal thinking at the time about taking that option?
Martin Heydon (Kildare South, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. O'Connor for appearing before the committee. To refer to a point made earlier when wind energy was being discussed, it was said that while Grid25 was closely connected to wind energy, there was no connection to the export of wind energy. Page 7 of "Grid25: A Strategy for the Development of Ireland's Electricity Grid for a Sustainable and Competitive Future" refers to increasing Ireland's connectivity to the European grid, allowing both bulk exports of electricity and imports of electricity when appropriate. Grid25 is involved in the export of energy. It is important to clarify that point for the record.
As a native of south Kildare, I wish to raise the issue of the Greenstar Recycling Holdings Ltd. application for a landfill at Usk in the middle of the last decade. Greenstar Recycling Holdings Ltd. received planning permission for a landfill development at Usk from An Bord Pleanála in July 2006, after being refused permission by Kildare County Council. The board's inspector had recommended against granting permission at that time. I live very close to the area and I know the local residents very well. I know what they went through in this ten year battle. It was very much a David and Goliath battle. It was a small, tight-knit community of approximately 150 households against the might of the State. When they opposed this decision in the courts, the board admitted that it had not maintained satisfactory records leading to the decision and that it had not properly monitored the public planning file. Contrary to law, the file was not available for inspection at various times.
Mr. Justice Kelly quashed the decision in a High Court judgment in March 2007 and he remitted the case back to the board for further consideration. He recommended in that judgment that it would be prudent that the consideration of the case would be undertaken by members of the board who had not been involved in the granting of permission. The recommendation was made to avoid any possible suggestion of bias or objective bias. On 30 July 2008, An Bord Pleanála, under Mr. O'Connor's chairmanship, again granted Greenstar Recycling Holdings Ltd. planning permission for a 200,000 tonne waste facility at Usk. The board had again disagreed with its inspector's decision. In light of Mr. O'Connor's comments earlier that only 12% of permissions from the board went against inspectors' recommendations, the residents of Usk must feel very hard done by that in these two cases it went against the inspector's decision and against the decision of the local authority to refuse planning permission for this.
In spite of Mr. Justice Kelly's recommendations of 2007, four members of the board who were involved in the 2006 decision were also involved in the 2008 decision. Mr. O'Connor wrote a memorandum on 17 June 2008 in respect of this in which he said that the project in question is a major and significant infrastructural development which would, in accordance with established practice within the board, be decided at a board meeting involving the chairperson and deputy chairperson, and that it was agreed that the most appropriate course would be to convene a meeting of all available board members, that is, those who participated previously and those who did not, to decide the appeal. This was emphasised in the memorandum. It was a complete contradiction of what Mr. Justice Kelly had recommended. Commenting on this, the judge said that the logic of the board's reasoning here was unfathomable. The reason the judge handed this case back to the board, and there was an argument for him not doing so in the first place, was to avoid a situation of objective bias, but in 2008 the judge quashed the board's second decision on the grounds of objective bias on the part of the four board members. It could not have been made clearer. The board was given a second shot at it but, under Mr. O'Connor's chairmanship, it decided to ignore that judgment.
I do not know if Mr. O'Connor knows how much that decision and the case in general cost the State, but I know from living close to Usk that it cost the residents. I remind the committee that this is a small, close-knit community of approximately 150 households. The ten year battle cost the residents approximately €400,000, so it probably cost the State significantly more. I guess it would have been approximately €1 million.
The reason I raise this is that we are here to talk about Mr. O'Connor's curriculum vitae, where he was in the past and his potential new role if he is appointed chairman of EirGrid. The local group in Usk made a number of attempts, both in between appeals and outside the court setting, to meet and engage with Mr. O'Connor to discuss this with him and try to explain the group's viewpoint. This was not a case of "not in my back yard". The site was wholly inappropriate, for various reasons, for a very large commercial landfill.
For whatever reason, the board seemed intent on steam-rolling through a decision to grant Greenstar this planning permission.
12:50 pm
John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Will you conclude? There are two other members who wish to speak.
Martin Heydon (Kildare South, Fine Gael)
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I will.
This country does not have a tradition of accountability. When people in important senior positions make grave and serious mistakes, which cost the taxpayer an awful lot of money, we are not great at removing them from their jobs and seeking accountability. Invariably, what happens is people move on from their roles and sometimes very significant golden handshakes and pensions arise. In the past, some people moved on to new positions and new roles, which was not right.
What was demonstrated in the case of Usk was a total lack of community engagement and an attempt by An Bord Pleanála, under Mr. O'Connor's chairmanship, to steam-roll a decision through. That does not fill me with any confidence. If Mr. O'Connor is to be chairman of EirGrid, he can multiply the Usk case by 1,000 if he is to take all the small close-knit communities which are genuinely concerned about the potential of pylons and high powered voltage lines going through their communities. I do not have any confidence that under Mr. O'Connor's chairmanship of EirGrid, the consultation process - we have heard plenty of concerns here about it - will be any way improved.
Luke Flanagan (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Independent)
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Would Mr. O'Connor not think that before a decision is made on a route, EirGrid would decide whether to put it overground or underground given that if it is going to put it overground, it might be looking for a different type of ground than if it was going underground? When people ask how much it would cost to put it overground on a chosen route, the answer would be different if EirGrid had made that decision before deciding the route. Obviously, if it is going to put it underground, it does not want to put it through limestone, which it might have to cut through, etc., and it might like to put it on ground that was easy to cut through.
I do not for one second believe there is any seriousness when it comes to consultation processes in this country. It is the standard decide, act and defend and EirGrid is in defend mode. On deciding whether to go overground or underground, does EirGrid not need to make that decision first?
Mr. O'Connor was asked whether people should be compensated if there are impacts. They should be compensated if there are impacts. Mr. O'Connor has already established that there are impacts because when asked if he would like to live beside a pylon, he said quite clearly that he would not. There are impacts because if I wanted to sell my house to Mr. O'Connor in the morning and there was a pylon beside it, he would not want to buy it, so already there is an impact. This is a public forum so everyone listening to him knows he believes there are obviously some sort of impacts.
What impacts does Mr. O'Connor think there are? Why would he not like to live beside a pylon? Will he explain in detail exactly why he would not like to live beside a pylon? Given that it will possibly be his job to convince us about something we do not want to be convinced about, I would like to know Mr. O'Connor's reasons for not wanting to live beside one of these pylons.
People in Ireland are sick of consultation that involves firing the arrow first and then drawing the target around it. We are sick of it and are not going to put up with it anymore. The sad thing is that there is now a big political circus around this. Apparently, an MEP, Mr. Jim Higgins, will solve it in Europe and Deputies will solve it here when, in fact, all it takes is a Government decision telling EirGrid to do what it should do, listen to the people and look for a route which is suitable and put this underground. In the meantime, can Mr. O'Connor tell me why he would not live beside a pylon because people will be very interested to hear the reason?
John Paul Phelan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I am sorry I am late but I followed much of the meeting on the monitor. I would like to ask Mr. O'Connor a couple of questions. I was a bit aghast with a response he gave to a question from, I think, Deputy McGrath about remuneration and maybe he could clarify it. If, in my part of the world, a man or a woman was asked to train a junior B football team, he or she would know about the remuneration available in terms of expenses. It beggars belief to suggest that three weeks after being offered this position, Mr. O'Connor is unaware of what potential remuneration or otherwise might be available.
I would like to ask Mr. O'Connor about his time in An Bord Pleanála. How does he view it? He said 7% of planning applications came before the board. Currently, there are at least two different Government-supported programmes for the destruction of houses in different parts of the country which were constructed during that 11 year period, at least some of which were granted permission by the board. Surely it is an indictment of the planning process. There were all the other aspects of what happened in that 11 year period in terms of banking and personal responsibility, but An Bord Pleanála must also have a role in some of the shocking planning decisions made throughout the country.
The notion that what is proposed in Grid25 is a more than doubling in capacity of our national grid beggars belief. No explanation at all has been given as to why this is justified. The days of a State agency of any sort telling the public this is the way it is going to be and to suck it up will not wash anymore.
I fully agree with what Senator Whelan suggested earlier in terms of the need for a full cost-benefit analysis. I respectfully suggest it should not happen at the end of the consultation period. All of the options are still being considered for routes, in particular the Grid Link project in my neck of the woods in the south and east of the country. It is one of the largest infrastructural developments in the history of the State. Deputy Deering raised the question of the motorway development and the possibility of siting it beside that. The cost-benefit analysis should be carried out before the final route is chosen.
I have nothing against Mr. O'Connor who seems like a perfectly pleasant man. I have never met him before and do not know him from Adam but in light of the fact that not a single member of this committee or any other guest has had anything positive to say about him taking up the position of chairperson, does he not think he should reconsider taking it?
Pat Deering (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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It had to do with the fact Mr. O'Connor did not ask any question about his remuneration.
Mr. John O'Connor:
When I was asked by the Minister to consider taking this position, my reaction was that if he or the Government thought I could be of any service in taking it, then I would give it very serious consideration, naturally enough. I have a history of service to the public, of which I am proud.
Luke Flanagan (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Independent)
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Even though Mr. O'Connor would not live beside a pylon EirGrid is trying to put up-----
John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I want to give Mr. O'Connor the chance to answer.
Mr. John O'Connor:
Remuneration for the job is not a primary consideration. It certainly did not come into my mind immediately when I was asked. It is not true to say the Minister asked me because of my experience in planning. I think I tried to explain that earlier. In fact, it was way down the list in terms of the discussion I had with the Minister. I think his main point was that I had a lot of experience in terms of serving on State boards, in managing State bodies and so forth and that this was a very important company which needed direction, leadership, experience and so forth that he felt I could offer. Planning was certainly not a primary issue.
Planning was certainly not a primary issue in the discussions on the role with the Minister, but obviously planning was mentioned in terms of Grid25, but it was not the reason he gave for asking me to take the job. Some Deputies mentioned the legacy issues in planning. As I said earlier, mistakes were made and bad planning decisions were made, but they were certainly not all made by An Bord Pleanála. Towards the end of my term, I undertook a public review of the ABP decisions, which were only a minority of all planning decisions, and accepted responsibility on the part of An Bord Pleanála for some of the decisions that were made. Most of the planning decisions that we are discussing were made by the local authorities and were never appealed to An Bord Pleanála.
Members made the point about the lack of information in the consultation process. I have heard what has been said and it is a repetition of what others have said. I will take those points on board.
The question of whether solid ducting should have been laid along the motorway during the construction period was raised. In an ideal world, all the issues could be brought together. The question has been raised as to whether the N25 and M9 motorways re suitable as routes for the grid. That has been raised in the consultation process and will have to be looked at and answered as well.
In response to Deputy Heydon, I reiterate that Grid25 energy is not being generated for export. I was referring to the projects that are around for the export of wind energy to Britain. I realise that in the longer term, there are prospects of connections to France and so on and that the south east would be the pivotal point at which it would have to come in. There has been some misunderstanding. I did not say that it had nothing to do with export, but long-term it may be tied up with the connection to France, but it has nothing to do with the current controversial proposals on the power generated by major wind farms in the midlands being exported to Britain. That is a separate project altogether.
I think the issue of Greenstar has been dealt with. The decisions were made in good faith on the basis of the need for waste facilities at the time. I have no figurers about cost as I did not bring that information.
1:00 pm
Paudie Coffey (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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Good faith or poor judgment?
Paudie Coffey (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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It is a matter of such significance.
John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Deputy, please hold.
Martin Heydon (Kildare South, Fine Gael)
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The reason I made that point, Chairman, was to highlight the serious lack of engagement. A small community was put through the mill and never got the opportunity to have their point heard.
John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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That is on the record.
Mr. John O'Connor:
As far as I can recall, the voice of the people was heard. There was an oral hearing into it and the people would have had free rein at the hearing to make their case and engage with the appeals process. I cannot see how the Deputy can assert there was a lack of engagement by An Bord Pleanála. An oral hearing is the way to give people access to make their case.
I have heard the point made on the consultation process, and my response would be the same. This must be examined.
Deputy Flanagan asked me for the reasons I would not like to live beside a pylon. I want to qualify that further. It depends on what one means by the word "beside". If the pylon is located within 30 m to 40 m of my home, I would not like that, but if it is a further distance-----
Luke Flanagan (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Independent)
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Mr. O'Connor answered the question, but in what context did he answer it?
Luke Flanagan (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Independent)
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Will Mr. O'Connor elaborate as I do not understand?
Luke Flanagan (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Independent)
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What does he mean by the word "disamenity" ? What is that?
Luke Flanagan (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Independent)
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The household?
Luke Flanagan (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Independent)
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How so?
Luke Flanagan (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Independent)
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Will Mr. O'Connor define "close" as this is important?
Luke Flanagan (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Independent)
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I would like Mr. O'Connor to be very precise, exceptionally precise.
Luke Flanagan (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Independent)
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It is not, not if one lives in Ballaghaderreen, or around those areas. It will be a disamenity, and I need to know.
Luke Flanagan (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Independent)
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It is very important
Luke Flanagan (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Independent)
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Through the Chair, can we get a definition of "close", because close means nothing unless one defines exactly what one means by close. Does it mean that it is close enough to fall on one's house?
Luke Flanagan (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Independent)
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Maybe 50 m. In this county when turf cutters deal with the Minister they are told "maybe they got consulted". From the mouth of Mr. O'Connor we hear "maybe 50 m". "Maybe" will not add up in court. What is the distance that Mr. O'Connor would be comfortable with in order that he would not have a problem living beside a pylon? Please tell us. Mr. O'Connor is destroying the process by what he is saying. Now nobody can have any confidence, as the chairman designate will not live beside one and will not tell us how close beside is. One would not get that on "Sesame Street".
John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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We have gone over time.
Luke Flanagan (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Independent)
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I think Mr. O'Connor has said it all.
John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Could I ask Mr. O'Connor to address Deputy Phelan's questions?
Luke Flanagan (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Independent)
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Mr. O'Connor did not answer the question. He fluffed it.
John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Will Mr. O'Connor answer Deputy Phelan's question because we are going over time?
Luke Flanagan (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Independent)
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Mr. O'Connor has not answered my next question relating to before a decision is made to go underground or overground-----
John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The time is up. If there is a perception afterwards that the witness has not answered the question, it is on the record. The Deputy has made his point.
Luke Flanagan (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Independent)
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It is a specific question and Mr. O'Connor has not answered it. The Chairman is moving on. Does the Chairman not want him to answer it? Does it not suit?
Mr. John O'Connor:
I must obey the Chair. Deputy John Paul Phelan thought I should have made inquiries about remuneration. I have told the truth about the situation. Whether he believes it is a matter for himself. It was not a primary consideration for me when I was asked to take the position. I did not ask and I still do not know if any remuneration goes with the job. I have not gone into that aspect of it.
Luke Flanagan (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Independent)
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How will Mr. O'Connor know whether he can pay his bills if he does not know the pay?
John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Flanagan had his opportunity. I ask-----
Luke Flanagan (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Independent)
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That I sit here and listen to him not answer a single question? I will do that all right. Some things never change, do they?
Mr. John O'Connor:
Again, I have dealt with the question on the role of An Bord Pleanála during the boom. On the questions relating to a cost-benefit analysis and why such an analysis has not been done and so forth, that is some thing that must be considered in the context of the response to the issues that have been raised. I would not say that anything of that nature has been ruled out yet. All of these issues will be considered. The question of how best to respond to the issues that have been raised in the consultation process will involve consideration of these issues.
On the question of whether I would reconsider my acceptance of the position offered, I will discuss it with the Minister and will come to a conclusion following that.
John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. O'Connor for attending and engaging with the members of the joint committee.
I do not think anyone can say that he or she did not get an opportunity to ask questions. We have concluded our engagement and discussions and will forward a transcript of the debate to the Minister. He will be able to decide whether the questions were answered. He will make his decision.
As there is no other business we will adjourn.