Mr. Martin Callinan:

I thank the Senator. The Senator said she was shocked by my presentation. Some of the things she has spoken about are out of context in terms of the answers I have given. The Senator said she was surprised I did not react more strongly to the criticisms of the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission report. What I said very clearly is that I purposely did not commit my comments on the ombudsman commission's report to the public domain but that I certainly indicated, in very clear and very detailed terms, my reflections on it when I met the Minister and the chairman. None of us was in any doubt as to my position on a number of aspects of that report. I am not, nor will I ever be, in the business of criticising another State agency in public which, after all, is trying to do its job to the best of its ability. I have indicated there were issues and difficulties and I articulated those points very clearly, both in a written submission to the Minister and in my oral presentation to him. That is as much as I am prepared to say on that aspect.

The Senator mentioned she was astounded by comments about my officers being engaged in the type of duty in which they are engaged when taking on investigations of this nature. The Senator mentioned the record. If she goes back over the record she will find I have said on a number of occasions at this fora that we are all engaged in a process of ensuring oversight and doing the right thing. I am paraphrasing but I have made that point a number of times and that is why I and my colleagues present and every other person in my organisation should co-operate fully. I spoke about the tensions that exist. When I was talking about my officers engaging in this type of duty, I was talking about the question that was posed to me whether would I prefer to see them doing other things. Yes, I would - other policing disciplines. That is not the same, with the greatest of respect to the Senator, as saying I do not believe we should be carrying out these investigations. We are mandated statutorily to do this work and we are doing it, but there are so many competing demands on my officers and so many other important issues to be dealt with that had I a preference, this burden would be lifted from my officers and dealt with by the GSOC people or an enlarged staff. That is the point I was making. I certainly was not indicating, nor would I want to create the impression - if I did, I apologise, but I do not believe I created the impression - that I was against dealing with transgressors in my organisation. If one looks at my organisation and its track record through the years in dealing with people who have transgressed and broken the law, one will see we have a very strong record in this regard. I have personally sent colleagues to jail, and so have the people sitting beside me. Therefore, let nobody have any issue with the commitment of the Garda Síochána to ensuring we do the right thing always. That is what we are here to do.

The Senator spoke about the issue of CHIS and the staffing levels within the CHIS system. It would not be appropriate for me to disclose the number of people we have engaged but we have substantial resources engaged in this process. Similarly, it would not be appropriate of me to indicate the number of people we have supplying that type of intelligence to us.

The Senator's last point was about oversight. Again, she said I failed to answer. She thought it was Deputy Flanagan who raised the issue of off-the-books and the oversight we have in place to deal with it. The oversight we have in place speaks to how one deals with a person with whom one forms a relationship in terms of supplying information or somebody that one is tasking to provide information. The policy and the guidelines are quite clear. Within all of that one will have a public spirited citizen who, from time to time, and it happens, will come forward with pieces of information. We are a community-based service. We have many friends, thanks be to God, who are more than willing to help us and pass on information. That is tightly controlled and that is the system. That is our standard operating procedure. If somebody, God forbid, is acting outside of that system, I would love to hear from somebody who can tell me how I would put in place an oversight to capture those people, if they are out there.

The Senator mentioned the language in the reports and said that surely there must be evidence in terms of the use of language. I have been very careful, both in my opening remarks and what I have been saying in response to these searching yet pertinent questions, and I have been very careful in the language I have used, and it is important that I am. After all, we are all responsible people here.

I have described the issues of the oversight in place.

I am not in a position to indicate to this committee or anybody else what more I can do other than to articulate the code of practice in place and the guidelines that govern how we operate. How can one cater for something that is not known? The law is there but does that mean people do not commit crime? How can we stop people committing crime? If we knew the people committing crime, by God we would ensure they would not commit a crime.

These are the imponderables. This is not rocket science and we now have a tight regime in place to deal with the system and management that takes in assembly, collation, analysis and distribution of intelligence. It is there for the oversight judge to examine any aspect he or she feels necessary to examine. There are no holds barred. I do not know what more I can do in trying to satisfy the committee that we have some sort of oversight of people that might be running agents off the books. As I indicated, if anybody, including the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission or the Senator, has information to the effect that any of my officers are transgressing the code of practice I have in place, which I believe is effective and speaks to international best practice, I would be more than glad to act on it. We have disciplined people who have transgressed the process.