Susan O'Keeffe (Labour) | Oireachtas source

The words I wrote down were "constant stream of complaint" and the record will show I took them directly from what the Commissioner said. I would have thought the Commissioner would want people to be able to complain and would welcome that ability. I am absolutely astounded by the idea that the Commissioner would even begin to consider that it was using time and energy which ought to be used for other things. I would welcome the Commissioner's observations in this regard.

I, of course, appreciate the reduction in resources and so on and can only begin to imagine the frustrations the Commissioner has as a manager in ultimately trying to manage those resources. Nonetheless, he has made a very serious observation. It was also telling that in his opening statement, the Commissioner told members about the investment the Garda has made in dealing with matters to do with the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission in terms of time and money. I do not know how much the Garda has invested in training or, if one likes, on the other side, that is, on the good side of this. Can the Commissioner provide figures to members in this regard? How many staff are involved in the management of covert human intelligence sources, CHIS? Surely the Commissioner would want it to be like this and not to be telling members it is costing so much money in the way he has. I echo Senator Ó Clochartaigh's impression that there still appears to be frustration in the Commissioner's office with the entire matter of the ombudsman and this is quite serious.

The Commissioner should forgive me, as I may have missed it, but I am not entirely clear that members received an answer on the issue of the off-the-books informants. The point made in the original report was there was no oversight that would allow this to be known. Is there now oversight that would allow this to be known?

The Commissioner was asked very directly by one of the other Deputies, I think it was Deputy Flanagan, whether there were off-the-book informants being run and he said, "I am not aware". That is not a "yes" or "no", it is "I am not aware". I am asking the Garda Commissioner, "yes" or "no", whether there are "off-the-book" informants. Separately, I am asking - please forgive me if I have missed the answer to this question - whether the Commissioner has a system of oversight that will ensure Mr. Justice Thomas Smyth can see that if he wants to see it, as I am sure he might.

I think the Commissioner said in his statement that the judge can make recommendations to him. Have any recommendations been made? Like the Commissioner, nobody present has any interest in causing difficulty either for the informants or for those managing them. Those matters that are confidential remain so. I do not believe the criticisms and observations raised in the committee meeting in July by the ombudsman commission had any bearing on that. There would have been in some of the nitty-gritty details the Commissioner has acknowledged he was trying to iron out. Broadly speaking, they were talking about delays, access not being granted and so forth, which is about process. It is not about the fundamental issue of protecting the people in question. None of us need be reminded of that. I would not wish any damage to be done and I do not think anybody present wants that either.

In regard to what may happen in the future in terms of protocols and so on, is the Commissioner in a position where his informant numbers have risen which makes the burden of this greater? I do not know whether he can tell us that - I am not looking for the details we cannot have - or if he is constrained in some way by some of the observations made in this report from enhancing his own network of informants?