David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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The purpose of today's meeting is to engage with Mr. Noel Lappin, chairman designate of the Private Security Authority. On behalf of members, I welcome Mr. Lappin and thank him for attending. He will be invited to make a brief opening statement, followed by questions from members. It is not the function of the committee to block the nomination of Mr. Lappin. This is not an interview process involving the committee determining his suitability, or otherwise, but an opportunity for members to engage with him in public session.

Witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to this committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in respect of a particular matter and continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. Witnesses are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Members should be aware that, under the salient rulings of the Chair, they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I invite Mr. Lappin to make his opening statement.

Mr. Noel Lappin:

I am honoured to have been asked by the Minister to be chairman of the Private Security Authority and am grateful for the opportunity to make a presentation to the committee. Members will appreciate that as the board has not met and I have not visited the offices and staff of the authority, my presentation will based on personal research and briefings by the Department and CEO of the authority. Consequently, I may not be in a position to provide as much detail as the members are accustomed to. I have provided a written submission outlining my professional background and giving a brief update on the authority. I will summarise this.

I am a native of Dublin, where I have lived all my life. I am married and have six adult children. I have worked in the electronics and telecommunications industries for over 40 years and have held senior management positions in the operations and supply chain areas. I hold a bachelor of business studies degree from DCU and a diploma in personnel management from the College of Industrial Relations. I am a member of the Institute of Directors. In 2010, as part of the chartered director programme, I obtained a diploma in company direction from the institute. I am currently working towards becoming a chartered director.

My most recent and relevant experience is as senior vice president of operations for Dialogic Corporation, formerly Eicon Technology, where I worked from 1992 to 2011. My first task with Dialogic Corporation was to set up the Irish-based European manufacturing and distribution centre. From 2001 to 2011, as senior vice president of operations, I was responsible for all aspects of operations and the supply chain in the Americas, Europe and the Far East. During this period, the company went through an extensive restructuring programme and then, via a series of mergers and acquisitions, embarked on a major expansion programme. As a member of the executive management team at the time, I was heavily involved in these activities. I gained extensive experience in areas such as strategy, organisational change, change management, project management, financial management and due diligence.

Before I joined Dialogic Corporation, I worked with a number of Japanese and American multinationals and with Irish companies in various positions, both technical and managerial. I am currently a non-executive director of Parkinson's Association of Ireland and have been since 2010. I take an active part in the workings of the board and am a member of the finance and HR-governance sub-committees.

With regard to the Private Security Authority, I have not yet had the opportunity to work with the board so some of my comments are based on personal research. The authority was established in 2005 under the Private Security Act 2004, as amended in 2011. It is a statutory body responsible for the licensing and regulation of the security industry in Ireland. Since it began operations, it has issued over 800 contract licenses in four major sectors and over 27,000 individual licenses in two major sectors. Work is ongoing to extend regulation and licensing to other sectors of the industry.

The role of chairman is one of leadership and guidance to ensure that the board and executive have a clear understanding of their mandates and that the skills and expertise of the board members are used to best effect for the benefit of the authority. The role involves ensuring that the board, in accordance with the code of governance, understands its role is to provide guidance in areas such as strategy and governance, and that the authority delivers operational efficiencies and high service levels and is not a burden to the industry.

Upon appointment, it will be a priority to arrange an early meeting of the new board. The last board meeting was held in November 2012. As I mentioned in my submission, there are a number of housekeeping items to be addressed. A further priority will be the strategic plan. Under the legislation, the authority is obliged to present a three-year strategic plan. The current plan expires in 2013. It will be necessary to prepare a new plan for submission to the Minister as soon as practicable. I look forward to working closely with the new board and CEO after my appointment. The ambition is to continue to roll out the mandate of the authority and to provide the highest level of service to all stakeholders. I thank the members for this opportunity.

Seán Kenny (Dublin North East, Labour)
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I welcome Mr. Lappin and wish him every success in setting up his new board and working with the Private Security Authority, PSA. I accept and appreciate that he has not yet begun that work.

A number of electricians in my constituency and elsewhere have been expressing concern over how the authority works, particularly regarding the installation of security alarm systems. Electricians must pass phase 6 in their apprenticeship to be qualified to work with voltages from 0 to 1,000. Electricians claim that the authority is basically denying them the right to practise their trade when they are qualified. They argue that some PSA members are not qualified to work on security or electrical installations as every installation requires working with main voltages. Much of the work, the electricians argue, is not up to the standard set by the Electro-Technical Council of Ireland. The electricians are members of various associations. One is the Registered Electrical Contractors of Ireland, one of whose functions is to ensure that electrical contractors meet the requirements of the CER. Electricians are also members of the Electrical Contractors Safety & Standards Association. The electricians to whom I refer are members of both bodies and have insurance cover for a liability of up to €6.5 million. An electrician can join both the Electrical Contractors Safety & Standards Association and Registered Electrical Contractors of Ireland for a fee of €300 per annum.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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I note Mr. Lappin's point that he had not yet been appointed officially to the post. Certainly, members have outlined matters he can take with him when he is appointed. He may not wish to comment in general or in detail at this stage. Obviously, Deputy Kenny has done a great deal of research.

Mr. Noel Lappin:

It was a wide-ranging statement and a significant number of issues were raised. Fees are being addressed. It is one of the housekeeping issues I noted in my submission. The appointment of the new board is awaited before it can be signed off on. On the other issue, the authority is working on standards with the National Standards Authority of Ireland, NSAI, and others. I can take the points made today and revert with a response having consulted the authority.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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That would be very useful. We will provide Mr. Lappin with time to do that. Deputy Kenny may wish to communicate with Mr. Lappin either directly or through the clerk to the committee and we can organise to have the points conveyed.

Mr. Noel Lappin:

I appreciate that.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Lappin might communicate with us through the clerk when he has had an opportunity to look at those matters. Is Deputy Kenny satisfied with that suggestion?

Seán Kenny (Dublin North East, Labour)
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Yes.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Mr. Lappin is very welcome to the committee. Given the questions I have, I was interested to hear in his opening remarks that he has a background in electronics. The PSA's job is to regulate and license the private security industry. I endorse Deputy Seán Kenny's points and focus on certain details. Does Mr. Lappin accept that Irish electricians are highly certified and qualified to install alarms and other devices? It is often forgotten that we have such a highly qualified, certified group of electricians. They feel they are being left down by the PSA. It is a mood out there. One electrician has a turnover of €55,000, of which the CCTV portion represents €4,000. The fees to the PSA are €2,500. Financially, that is very hard on a small business person. If he does not pay the fee, he will lose much of the €4,000 CCTV contract he gets per year. It is an issue that must be addressed.

When the PSA was looking for external inspectors, the advertisement turned up in the magazine of the Garda Representative Association. Under the section on qualifications and experience, the advertisement said applicants must have a strong background in undertaking investigations through personal interaction with the public, including face-to-face interviewing, good administrative planning and scheduled skills. Why was the advertisement turning up in the magazine of the Garda Representative Association? What direct experience do these people have in the electrical and alarms business generally?

Is it lawful under EU competition law for the Private Security Authority to treat small contractors with modest turnover in the same way as contractors with a turnovers of €650,000 or more? This is something we are concerned about. I want to represent the interests of small providers as opposed to the major ones, as the former are often forgotten. It is particularly so during a significant downturn when small, self-employed electricians are being hammered. They are fighting for survival. I want to represent that voice. Is it lawful under EU law to prohibit small contracts when carrying out maintenance of alarm systems, as will be the case when the maintenance of alarm systems is included in the Civil Law (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2011? I raise these issues, Chairman, to ensure Mr. Lappin has some feel for what is going on in the broader community. It is my job as a Member of the Oireachtas to raise these issues and ask these questions.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy does that job exceptionally well. I am sure he will agree that we do not expect Mr. Lappin to answer these questions now. He can take them with him and return on a future date with other members of the executive and authority for a thorough engagement. It is useful to raise these issues. Is that acceptable?

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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I would like a general response as I am concerned about the small people out there who are being hammered regularly and landed with large fees while people who may not be fully qualified are working as inspectors. These are serious questions.

Mr. Noel Lappin:

Legislation has been agreed by the Minister to reduce the fees for smaller contractors and it is waiting signature. If the Deputy wants a good news story, as soon as the board is up and running, that will be signed off.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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What will the €2,500 fee be reduced to?

Mr. Noel Lappin:

I understand it will be reduced to €300, but I ask members not to quote me.

Seán Kenny (Dublin North East, Labour)
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That would be in line with what other professional bodies charge their members. I welcome that. It is equivalent to the fee being charged by RECI and the ECSSA.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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With respect, these are details we might come back to later.

Seán Kenny (Dublin North East, Labour)
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Did I understand the Chair to say that he would bring people back here again?

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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I expect that we will have a more thorough engagement with the authority at a later date.

Seán Kenny (Dublin North East, Labour)
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I am happy with that.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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We will certainly issue an invitation. There are many issues on which members want to engage. We may write to the authority with a list of issues to ensure its representatives are prepared when they come here. That might be a fair and efficient approach.

Martin Conway (Fine Gael)
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I look forward to further engagement on the issues which have been articulated well by other speakers. As incoming chairman, is it Mr. Lappin's wish that the remit of the authority be expanded? As someone with expertise, into what areas would he like to see the remit expanded? I want to raise the public relations wing of the authority.

Mr. Noel Lappin:

In respect of expansion of the mandate, my understanding is that the mandate as issued under the original Act has not been fully rolled out so part of our priority with the next board will be to ensure the board meets its existing mandate. Where I see change coming is where technology convergence is happening. Technology is changing rapidly and the areas and lines between different sectors are becoming blurred, so that will be an area at which the authority must look to see where technology is going. Increasing automation is coming in and people are being taken out of the equation. How do we govern, for example, the fully automated building? What happens to the staff? They are areas about which the authority has been thinking and which it will need to address. In respect of mandate, the authority needs to fulfil the existing mandate given the financial and personnel resources it has. That is where I see the mandate. PR would seem to be a resource issue. I know matters like the maintenance of the website are an issue but where is the capacity to do that kind of work? I know the authority does much work in the area of guidance and standards and has much ongoing activity in the area of standards, both technical and quality management. It is my understanding that there is a system in place for phased payments.

Martin Conway (Fine Gael)
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That is relatively new.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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What about regular meetings of the board?

Mr. Noel Lappin:

The Act calls for four board meetings per year as an absolute minimum. I have had discussions with the CEO and we have scheduled the first. We are planning to have three this year and will plan a strategy day so that will give us at least four this year. The minimum is four to meet the requirements of the Act but the question arises as to whether the needs of the business require more. I would imagine they do.

Alan Farrell (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Lappin is very welcome to the meeting. I was going to touch on the issue of electrical contractors as it has been raised with me but I will leave it for another occasion as it has been addressed quite well by other members. The issue of the extended remit has been raised by Senator Conway so I will not weigh in on that too much except to inquire with regard to event security. I know there is mention of that being rolled out in the sector in 2013. Is Mr. Lappin aware whether that process has started or is it something he will take up when he sits with the board? Does the authority govern private security in respect of our transport providers? I am aware of security personnel on much of the transport in the city and wonder whether they are governed. I assume they are but could Mr. Lappin cover that? Could he give us a brief outline regarding the work the authority has done on private investigators? I would be interested in hearing his thoughts on that, albeit from a researched perspective as opposed to a practical experience of it. I have come across the issue of fees with quite a lot of the agencies set up since the 1990s. Fees have steadily crept upwards and in the case of one or two, it is often difficult to understand precisely what it is they are charging for in the first place. I know Mr. Lappin touched on it and perhaps it would be difficult for him to cover it given his initial role at this stage but he might like to comment on it.

Mr. Noel Lappin:

I will start with event regulation. I know there is a draft regulation with the Parliamentary Counsel which is awaiting approval. In respect of transport security, I know there are a couple of exceptions in the Act but I am not aware if transport is covered by that. However, I can check it out. The current status regarding private investigators is that a public consultation process has begun. A questionnaire was issued earlier this year. I believe that phase where questionnaire responses were requested ended in May. That is as much as I am aware of at this point in time.

Marcella Corcoran Kennedy (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. Lappin for coming in this morning and wish him the very best of luck in his new role. His CV is very impressive and no doubt, he will bring all that experience to bear. The first thing I will refer to relates to electricians, an issue referred to by my colleagues. I am thinking in particular of electricians in rural areas in one or two man operations. For them to come up with this huge fee is prohibitive and many of them do not bother because they would not make enough money installing alarms in the entire year to justify it. I welcome the news today that this will be reduced.

Would a public information campaign be a priority for Mr. Lappin? I came across an occasion when a person used their local electrician to install an alarm and received a very strongly worded letter from the PSA about the fact that they had used an electrician who was not registered with it. The individual did not know that they were breaking the law by employing someone they knew and trusted and who did all the electrical work for them. I tried to find public information on this in order that the citizen would know that they would be breaking the law if they did not use a registered electrician but I could not find anything anywhere. That is not to say that it is not out there but I certainly could not find it. If I could not find it then how could an ordinary citizen find it? I am thinking of campaigns like the television licence campaign. Obviously, it does not have to be as frequent but I would like to hear Mr. Lappin's thoughts on that.

Mr. Noel Lappin:

It is a very good idea that I will discuss with the CEO. I think it can only be to the advantage of the PSA.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Could I get back in?

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Of course.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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I think the fine is in the region of €3,000 or five years imprisonment. I think that was stated in one of the advertisements. When one compares that with what happened yesterday in the courts, I think the whole country has gone bananas, but that is a separate issue.

The issue of personnel from private security firms on the doors of pubs and clubs is particularly relevant to my constituency where people have been assaulted, shot at and killed. We have had all sorts of problems. What plans does the authority have to clean up this area? It is a major problem, particularly in my constituency. I know from talking to colleagues that it is also a major problem in other constituencies. The wrong people with serious form are getting involved in private security companies. People are very concerned. When we see innocent people who go in for a quiet pint being shot at in doorways, we know we need to act on that.

Mr. Noel Lappin:

I understand from my research that this is one of the areas in which the PSA has been most active. I believe 27,000 licences have been issued and standards have been set. Training and suitability criteria have been established. That area is well regulated, from what I read, but perhaps inspection and enforcement is an issue. Again, however, I will have to ask that question.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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I emphasise the importance of inspection and enforcement. The public needs to know it is happening.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Inspection of what, Deputy McGrath?

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Of the doors and the implementation. We all know the situation has improved, but the premises and the guys on the doors must be inspected regularly and comprehensively. Otherwise, people will lose confidence.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Are you talking about the doormen and women?

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Yes. The PSA inspectors need to go there and be seen to be enforcing it and being strict about it.

Mr. Noel Lappin:

One of the issues for the board is to sign off on the panel of external inspectors. Again, that is one of the housekeeping issues.

Marcella Corcoran Kennedy (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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To return to the matter of the citizen, there is no reference to it even on the PSA website. Although it is not Mr. Lappin's yet, it will be after the first board meeting and we will be really gunning for him the next time-----

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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That is unfortunate terminology.

Marcella Corcoran Kennedy (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I withdraw that comment. It is really important to put it on the PSA website to ensure the citizen is informed adequately so they do not unwittingly expose themselves to being brought up in court.

Martin Conway (Fine Gael)
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I presume the PSA has established protocols with bodies such as the Licensed Vintners Association and particularly the insurance companies. Obviously, a pub or a nightclub will have security to keep the cost of public liability insurance down. It is supposed to reduce costs, not increase them. Are there formal protocols or at least formal contacts in place with insurance companies and the governing bodies in the hospitality and retail sector that would use security?

Mr. Noel Lappin:

I am not aware of it but I will check that out.

Martin Conway (Fine Gael)
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Would Mr. Lappin consider that it would be necessary?

Mr. Noel Lappin:

I do not know that it would be necessary because I am not fully up to speed, but it certainly would be an advantage to a company to be regulated and therefore get the benefit of that regulation with reduced insurance costs.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Part of the problem of being Chairman, as you will probably find out, is that the members ask all the good and hard questions first and leave none for me. Thank you for being here today. Your curriculum vitae, professionalism and experience will be invaluable to the authority. I made an error earlier when I referred to appeals but I am sorry for that. I draw your attention to the need for training people in the security industry. Perhaps you would focus on that. It has been brought to my attention more than once that we need to do more about the levels of training and ongoing training of people working in this area.

Does Mr. Lappin wish to respond generally to the committee?

Mr. Noel Lappin:

I am aware that standards have been set for training and that some FETAC, Further Education and Training Awards Council, courses at different levels have been set. I am not aware of the details.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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We will certainly invite you back later. The authority was established in 2006 and it has done tremendous work since then. I remember the legislation going through the Houses and at that time there were major concerns about what was happening. Deputy Finian McGrath has alluded to some of that. An enormous amount of work has been done and I am sure that will improve even further under your leadership. I wish you well and thank you for attending this meeting. We will meet you again in the future.

Is it agreed that the committee will inform the Minister that it has concluded its discussion with Mr. Lappin and forward a copy of the transcript of the meeting to the Minister for his information? Agreed.

I wish you success in your new role, Mr. Lappin.

Mr. Noel Lappin:

I thank the committee.