Joe McHugh (Donegal North East, Fine Gael)
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I welcome Mr. Paul Hannigan, president of the Letterkenny Institute of Technology, Mr. Dennis Cummins, president of the Dundalk Institute of Technology, and Mr. James Brennan, head of life sciences from Sligo Institute of Technology. Professor Terri Scott, president of Sligo Institute of Technology, is unfortunately unable to join us today.

By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they are to give this committee. If they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise nor make charges against any person or persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

I invite Mr. Paul Hannigan to make his opening statement.

Mr. Paul Hannigan:

I thank the committee for its invitation to present to it today. Professor Terri Scott could not make it today as she is, coincidentally, speaking at a career guidance conference in Derry.

The Good Friday Agreement placed emphasis on matters such as agriculture, transport, tourism and urban and rural development as areas for North-South co-operation and implementation. Education received only a single mention because of the profound complexity of the issues involved and the many sensitive subtexts in 1998. Despite the immense challenges that still lie ahead on the path to reconciliation, pluralism and mutual cultural respect, there is today much greater social and political maturity. Accordingly, the opportunity now exists to address North-South co-operation in higher education. Much has been achieved since April 1998 upon which we can now build.

Higher education has mutually enriching objectives. It prepares participants for the employment marketplace, contributes to job creation and economic prosperity through research and technology and knowledge transfer and helps to contribute to social stability by imbuing participants with civic values and awareness of the responsibilities of citizenship. Across the two jurisdictions, there are now many opportunities to give impetus to the aspirations of the Good Friday Agreement and to contribute to economic regeneration and competitiveness by greater co-operation and harmonisation of the higher education systems. This would help to articulate strand two of the Agreement which aims “to develop [areas of] consultation, co-operation and action within the island of Ireland”. Another and no less important legacy of greater occupational and student mobility would be a much higher awareness of what the Agreement refers to as shared “cultural identity and heritage”.

Such mobility and harmonisation can only be achieved by taking practical steps to bring it about. This paper sets out some of the relevant issues. There is currently capacity in the institutes of technology sector. There is under-capacity in Northern Ireland, as it is the only one of the 13 regions in the United Kingdom that has a cap on higher education numbers. Each year, this forces many thousands of students from Northern Ireland to go to Great Britain with the additional costs to them and their parents, a situation exacerbated by the increase in fees. Although some go by choice, many are forced to go because of a perceived absence of opportunities North and South. Equally important, there is evidence that up to three quarters of such students do not return to Northern Ireland or the Republic to contribute their knowledge and skills to economic regeneration and social progress.

The national strategy for higher education 2030, currently being implemented in Ireland, proposes to create a dynamic new globally competitive higher education system to the benefit of all participants. There is a misperception of the institutes of technology sector in Northern Ireland due to the confusion caused by its name. Many potential participants are unaware that each of the 13 institutes of technology offers a wide programme of internationally recognised degrees and areas of study up to doctoral level. The Central Applications Office, CAO, entry mechanism needs reform because it disadvantages students coming from the North to the South. Careers guidance services in the North must also have a greater awareness of opportunities in institutes of technology in helping second level students to make informed choices.

Online learning is an integral part of the future of higher education throughout the world. Not least of its benefits is that it allows access to higher education for many socially disadvantaged but talented students who cannot afford to study in traditional institutions. There is an urgent need not only to promote and facilitate access to online higher education but to incentivise students to study by virtual means. Sligo Institute of Technology has led the way in this growing means of provision and has the largest population of online students in the island. One means of encouraging greater student mobility would be the establishment of several scholarships and bursaries in fields of study of particular importance to developing an island-wide knowledge economy. This could begin in the Border counties where there exists an established tradition of graduates travelling from one jurisdiction to the other every day to work.

The stated longer-term objective of higher education in both the North and the South is to create genuine and inclusive systems of lifelong learning. IT Sligo commissioned a scoping study to look at some of the issues underlying choice of location and participation in higher education North and South. To fully understand the opportunities for North-South co-operation and harmonisation, a much wider scoping study would need to be undertaken under the aegis of this committee to examine the factors acting upon student choice and mobility and to make appropriate recommendations. Its terms of reference must include the impact of demographic changes in the next decade upon capacity and participation in both jurisdictions.

The Northern Ireland Assembly’s independent review of variable fees and student finance arrangements is also pertinent. Both sets of findings need to be part of the wider consideration. The establishment of a joint working group to create greater harmonisation within the two higher education systems North and South and to help break down the boundaries to island-wide higher student mobility would be a significant step forward. By such an initiative we could ensure existing capacity North and South is optimised and increased and that reciprocity and complementarity would characterise higher education North and South.

The most recent work on undergraduate mobility North and South was completed by Andy Pollak and D’Arcy Smyth. The Higher Education Statistics Agency, HESA, in the UK and the Higher Education Authority, HEA, in Ireland collate data and provide analysis. Pollak identifies some conclusions regarding the obstacles to undergraduate mobility on a cross-Border basis. The underlying themes emerging from this research are a lack of information and clarity regarding recognition of qualifications and entitlements to financial support.

The D’Arcy Smyth report concentrates more on the number of students moving between jurisdictions, with a particular focus on the financial barriers impacting upon them. It concludes with a number of suggestions for education policy with a particular focus on the impact of fee differentials on the movement of undergraduates. There are suggestions for pupils, parents, and guidance counsellors which are useful. The report suggests “a need for a new and substantial joint North-South initiative to co-operate and co-ordinate the responses of both jurisdictions to the likely changes in cross-Border third level study.”

Figures provided by Dr. Vivienne Patterson from the HEA identify the flow of students from North to South over the period 2007-2008 and 2011-2012. The number of undergraduate new entrants to higher education in the Republic of Ireland from Northern Ireland has stubbornly stayed at 0.5 % or below over that period. The actual number of entrants varied between 113 and 177 with 168 registered in 2011-2012. However, when the statistics are further investigated from 2007-2008 to 2010-2011, an average of 86% of new entrants went to Irish universities, with institutes of technology averaging 13%.

There is a relatively consistent number of students from Northern Ireland going to high-points courses in TCD and UCD, with 82.5% of those attending university going to these two institutions. However, the year 2011-2012 shows some change, with this percentage dropping to 61%. In the same year, the combined entrants to Letterkenny IT, IT Sligo and Dundalk IT totalled 21%, almost twice as many as the previous year.

The number of applications from the UK to Irish institutions decreased from 1,291 in 2012 to 1,159 in 2013, a decrease of 10.2%. Applications from Northern Ireland applicants showed an increase from 1,139 in 2012 to 1,223, an increase of 84. Overall, applications from the UK and Northern Ireland make up 3.3% of all applications in 2013, the same percentage as in 2012. Therefore, given these figures, it is unlikely to show any major change in undergraduate new entrants for 2013.

While there is an expectation among staff in each of the institutes in which we work that cross-Border mobility of undergraduates should be intuitive, it is obvious from the figures that this is not the case. Despite various initiatives by single institutions, the level of North-South mobility remains lower than one would expect between neighbouring jurisdictions. There is a necessity in Border areas to consider an institute's broader hinterland in the context of regional development and this requires strong political support. I will ask Mr. Cummins to take us through the recommendations.

Mr. Denis Cummins:

The institutes of technology at Dundalk, Letterkenny and Sligo are closest to the Border and have the greatest interest in improving student mobility, particularly from North to South. The three institutions are working in a co-ordinated way, have a number of recommendations to make and seek the support of this committee. I will quickly run through them.

The three presidents of Dundalk IT, Letterkenny IT and IT Sligo recommend that the committee support the establishment of a North-South higher education joint working group. The purpose of the group will be to promote student mobility between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland. In particular, the group will promote the following: providing improved co-ordination in respect of admission and progression opportunities for students on an all-island basis; increased student recruitment on a cross-Border basis; the establishment of a programme to facilitate cross-Border staff mobility programmes between higher education institutions; the monitoring of cross-Border student mobility programmes; ensuring the CAO system provides equitable treatment to students from Northern Ireland; facilitating better co-operation between careers services in the higher education institutions, particularly to promote job opportunities for graduates on a cross-Border basis; an annual conference targeted at second level guidance services on a cross-Border basis to promote greater awareness of the portfolio of courses available at higher education institutions on either side of the Border; and the establishment of a scholarship fund targeted at promoting cross-Border student mobility for students from low-income backgrounds.

Joe McHugh (Donegal North East, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. Cummins. Does Mr. Brennan wish to speak or will I open it up to the members?

Mr. James Brennan:

Basically, this is a joint proposal from the three institutions. The two presidents have outlined what is in the document. I do not have anything extra to add to it until questions are put. I will not delay proceedings other than to say that Professor Terry Scott is 100% behind this proposal, as is the institution as a whole.

Joe McHugh (Donegal North East, Fine Gael)
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I will take questions and observations from members and the witnesses can decide who will respond.

Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Like the Chairman, I welcome our visitors and very much welcome their presentation, which was good and concise and shows the potential for co-operation on an all-island basis. I welcome the recommendation for a North-South higher education joint working group. It is a proposal that we should be willing to vigorously support and pursue with the Higher Education Authority and the Minister for Education and Skills. I will add one particular bullet point for consideration - a proposal that we optimise existing capacity, to which Mr. Hannigan referred earlier in the presentation, and minimise course provision in the case of courses in niche areas with small numbers of students. There is no point in having a particular course in both the North and the South when it does not have a critical mass of students pursuing it. Given the challenging financial circumstances facing administrations North and South, we must optimise existing capacity.

One of my bugbears is the fact that we have good infrastructure, such as the different facilities in institutes of higher education and universities, lying idle for substantial parts of the year. We should be trying to derive benefit from this area on an year-round basis rather than on the basis of the academic year.

I warmly welcome the fact that the three institutes of technology in the Border area are working together. The witnesses mentioned that the Good Friday agreement had only a passing reference to education. Teagasc, which is an educational research institute authority here, has a close working relationship with its counterpart north of the Border, as have the two Departments. There is a lot of co-operation that is not specified or prescribed in formal agreements, but the Good Friday agreement was the backdrop to much of the increased co-operation between those institutions. Obviously, it is an area that needs to built upon. Representing two of the southern Border counties, we must be more outgoing and stronger advocates for Border regional development. If we do not utilise and maximise the potential of our third-level sector, we will not maximise the potential of our economies, North or South.

Frank Feighan (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fine Gael)
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I welcome the delegation and very much value its presentation, which was concise and informative. The aspirations of the Good Friday agreement with regard to education have not been followed through. I wonder what we were doing for the past ten or 15 years, because it reflected the economy of our island. We have capacity down here and there is a cap on education in Northern Ireland. We were just lazy. The colleges needed to look at a market that effectively was not there, and it has not been successful. However, we need to move on from there.

A total of 82.5% of Northern Ireland students attending colleges in the Republic of Ireland went to Trinity College Dublin and UCD. I do not think anybody needs to pat themselves on the back over this figure. If I was a student in Northern Ireland, Trinity College would be the Ivy League college to aim towards, so those figures are very much manipulated. I would like to know how many of those students attended Trinity College. I suspect the figure is much higher than that for UCD, although I may be wrong.

We are where we are and I very much welcome this report. I very much welcome the idea of a higher education joint working group. This committee must work very closely with the three institutes of technology to promote that working group. How will the scholarship fund operate? Who does the delegation hope to target and what areas does it hope to target? It is very sad that only half of the people from the Unionist tradition in Northern Ireland go on to higher education. This anomaly is very worrying and people should not be clapping themselves on the back for it. We should not forget about the Nationalist community but this is one area that could be targeted and focused upon.

It could help that community integrate or see what is on this side of the Border.

Mr. Pat Doherty:

I thank representatives of the three colleges for their presentations. I have some broad questions, the first of which is very simple. I support their recommendations but I also suggest that they approach the Committee for Education in the Assembly and the Oireachtas Committee on Education and Social Protection. I have been a Member of the Legislative Assembly for 14 years and I am well aware of the potential for joint North-South committee meetings on issues of relevance. If the witnesses were to make presentations to both committees and encouraged them to enter into a joint undertaking they might advance their proposal.

They spoke about the misperception about the status of institutes of technology. That offers a challenge to us as politicians to change these perceptions but the institutes also have a role in addressing the issue by giving politicians the tools to act on their behalf. I am familiar with Letterkenny Institute of Technology through family members who studied there and other interactions with the college.

Mr. Denis Cummins:

I will address the questions on scholarships and misperceptions and Mr. Hannigan can address the other questions. In one sense, a scheme is already in place, namely, the Erasmus programme for student mobility across Europe. My own institution hosts up to 200 students at any one time from partner universities in France, Germany, Finland and Spain. I am not aware of a single exchange with Northern Ireland, however. It may be a case of making better use of the Erasmus programme rather than funding a new scholarship. I would prefer to target scholarships at low income students and, in the case of Dundalk, I would love to see students coming from the Protestant community in Northern Ireland. At present we have approximately 50 students out of 5,000, which is a small drop in the ocean. As far as I know all of them are from Nationalist backgrounds. This year for the first time in our history a Protestant school visited during our annual open day. The point was made that Protestants avail of higher education to a much lesser extent than the Nationalist community. I would like to increase their participation as a way of building mutual understanding.

Mr. Paul Hannigan:

There is a degree of overlap with the questions raised and I will attempt to deal with them on that basis. I am originally from Ballyshannon in County Donegal, which is a Border town. For ten years I worked with Mr. Cummins in Dundalk Institute of Technology before returning to Letterkenny Institute of Technology, where I have been for the last 15 years. I have spent my entire life around the Border and I am well aware of the issues that have to be considered.

In the context of the overall situation, cross-Border collaboration has undoubtedly gone down the political agenda. Deputy Smith made reference to the attitudes of people who do not live in Border areas and noted that they do not regard cross-Border educational initiatives as being relevant to them. We have to fight that battle initially within our own constituencies to persuade people that such initiatives are vital for Border colleges. We work alongside people from both sides of the Border but few students from Northern Ireland study in our institutions.

Deputy Feighan suggested that we were lazy in the context of implementing the agreement and that we should be doing more to develop relationships with Northern Ireland. However, each of the three institutions have invested considerable amounts of money, effort and time on changing perceptions in Northern Ireland. It is difficult to identify the obstacles to mobility on both sides of the Border. The central issue is, as Andy Pollack has noted, the complete confusion that exists about what is on offer in our respective institutes. We put obstacles in front of people without meaning to do so. This issue arose in the earlier discussion about entry levels and confusion about A levels. We recently dealt with the question of how we should set entry level requirements for students with applied A levels. There is a problem of misinformation but the wider context is that people regard it as solely a matter for Border counties. I am glad to hear the commitments expressed by members regarding political support for our recommendations. The proposal to make a presentation to both education committees offers one way of progressing the matter.

To put the issues facing Letterkenny Institute of Technology in a context with which Deputy Ferris will be familiar, they are the equivalent of the Institute of Technology Tralee not taking students from any other part of Munster. A large hinterland would be removed in terms of student participation, with knock-on effects on how the institute operates and serves the region. We should not lose sight of the spatial strategy in this debate. Letterkenny is a joint gateway with Derry city. We need to continue reminding people of the importance of cross-Border co-operation and its impact on the day-to-day operation of the institutions.

Mr. Denis Cummins:

The single biggest obstacle we face is misperception. Focus groups we have worked with in Northern Ireland simply did not realise the opportunities available in our institutes of technology. We are confused with further education in Northern Ireland and students are often unaware that we offer degree and post-graduate courses. Clearly our institutions can do more to address that misperception but political support would help in this regard.

The second biggest obstacle is the way in which the CAO system unfairly disadvantages students from Northern Ireland. The best performing student from Northern Ireland would be capped at 450 points, whereas the best performing student in the Republic of Ireland is capped at 600 points. We have examples of students who are refused admission to DKIT but get places in Queens University Belfast. Something is not right in the way the system is working. Our three institutions are committed to developing direct entry procedures on the basis of a fair apportionment of points.

Mr. James Brennan:

One could argue that we were lazy but we are now moving much further and faster to address the matter. Significant effort has been invested in developing links with Northern Ireland but the biggest problem is misperception. When I was recently in King's Hall representing IT Sligo, a group of students came around the corner and, on seeing our sign, said they were not planning to study IT. I had to explain that we teach all sorts of subjects, including business, science and engineering. In regard to being mixed up with further education in Northern Ireland, we have sought to link with further education colleges. We are in a process of mapping how people can come from further education to advanced entry level in courses in science, engineering and business. The CAO system and the misconception of what we do are major difficulties.

Peter Fitzpatrick (Louth, Fine Gael)
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I welcome the witnesses. I am amazed, if not shocked, at the number of people from Northern Ireland who do not avail of the opportunity to attend institutes of technology along the Border. If the witnesses need any help, there will be no problem whatsoever. I come from Dundalk and I know Mr. Cummins pretty well. The Dundalk Institute of Technology, DKIT, is looking to give university level higher education to graduates, and that would be a major plus if it can go ahead with that. The education opportunities in DKIT are very high. The entrepreneurship is excellent. DKIT is doing a lot of cross-Border developments. Within a 90 minute drive of DKIT is a population catchment of more than 3 million people. I see no reason we cannot push hard and try to get as many people from Belfast and Derry as possible.

Regarding value for money, the cost of going to DKIT or other institutes of technology in the Republic compared with the universities in the North is vastly different. On the range of courses in the Republic compared with the North, I was talking to Mr. Cummins recently about potential new courses coming up in DKIT. He mentioned the school of business and humanities and the school of engineering, and these are all bachelor of arts, BA, courses. He mentioned the school of informatics and creative art and the school of health and science. He has a fantastic agriculture programme in DKIT and it is growing significantly. Agriculture is keeping the country going with its exports.

The witnesses mentioned equal status. Could they elaborate on what they mean by that? They also mentioned the opportunity for cross-Border jobs. Mr. Cummins already spoke about the scholarship fund. He mentioned improving admission. We will do anything we can to help because the education is fantastic. DKIT has more than 5,000 students and 80% are from the Louth, Monaghan and Cavan area. Mr. Cummins is trying to advance the colleges all the time. We have a goldmine here in our area around the Border and it is very important we get out that message not only to Northern Ireland but also to the UK. More than 400 Chinese students attend DKIT.

One of the main reasons companies such as eBay and PayPal come to the area is because of the education we have there. The infrastructure will be a big help. Ms Louise Phelan of PayPal has been picking Mr. Cummins's brain and requesting language courses, and I am sure he is bending over backwards to facilitate her. I have nothing but praise for the work the witnesses are doing and I would love to see the institutes of technology go from strength to strength. Another major plus is the number of people they employ locally. I am very enthusiastic about the whole thing and if the committee can give any help, we will be more than happy to do so.

Jim D'Arcy (Fine Gael)
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I welcome the witnesses from Letterkenny, Sligo and Dundalk. The contribution of the institutes of technology to education is phenomenal. I sat on the board of DKIT for nine years. Unfortunately, I had to leave it when I was appointed to the Seanad, but I am aware of the great work that is being done in DKIT. Are all the witnesses happy with today's report on the future of third level education? How will it impact on their institutes? How will it help in the efforts to get students from the North into our institutes of technology? That is the most pressing issue I have to ask about.

Mary Moran (Labour)
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I, too, commend the witnesses on their work. I apologise for not being here for their briefing but I have a fair idea of what they are proposing and I wholeheartedly pledge my support for it. Coming from Dundalk, DKIT is the one with which I am most familiar. I see it growing from strength to strength. In my area of music I studied my masters course in DKIT, which I would not have been able to take anywhere else were it not for the courses and how it was laid out for people on a part-time basis.

The establishment of this North-South higher education forum would be a wonderful initiative to encourage movement. We have all seen the facts and figures and the lack of students coming North to South. Earlier this morning I raised better communication and awareness for the Universities and Colleges Admissions Service, UCAS, and the Central Applications Office, CAO, to get on. The Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Quinn explained what is happening in the CAO system but it gives us scope to work on that and impress on him the importance of ensuring there is better scope and that people have more mobility, North and South.

We also spoke about people from low socioeconomic and low income backgrounds. The idea of a scholarship fund is great and should be encouraged. It would be a pledge to show the institutes of technology are progressive in their thinking and are catering for people from lower socioeconomic backgrounds. The issue of the A levels and the fact that when one transfers them one has only 450 points in the Irish system is ridiculous. That is the huge barrier we must overcome first.

Mary White (Fianna Fail)
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I raised the matter of the lack of activity and neglect by the Higher Education Authority, HEA, on North-South co-operation with the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Quinn. He listened. It is disgraceful. Many years ago, Charles Haughey appointed me to the HEA so I have an interest and I know what happens there. It is quite a closed organisation in its own way. It is a pity the North-South co-operation has lapsed and the HEA does not have it as part of its strategy.

The establishment of the joint working group to create greater harmonisation within the two higher education systems, North and South, will help break down the barriers to higher island-wide student mobility and would be a significant step forward. Business people, such as the management of PayPal in Dundalk, do not see the Border. If people have experience and qualifications, it does not matter where they come from. The quicker we get this back on track, the better.

I congratulate the two colleges and the Institute of Technology Sligo on the fantastic work they do. It is a brilliant contribution. The committee will support them in any way we can. Formally, under the Good Friday agreement, I raised with the Minister the lack of drive by the HEA in its action plan. The HEA action plan does not mention co-operation at all.

Terry Brennan (Fine Gael)
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I acknowledge DKIT's contribution, particularly in the past ten years.

I congratulate Mr. Cummins on the part he has played in expanding the educational facilities at the college. I have a personal connection to Letterkenny but I have no connection to Sligo. Perhaps I will after this meeting.

What can be done to increase the number of students from Northern Ireland attending DKIT? Is Mr. Cummins happy with the current enrolment? There is a large population in the Border region. Are sufficient numbers attending the institute? Could the institute capitalise on that?

I congratulate all the institutes of technology. Ten years ago, I envisioned Dundalk becoming a university town. That has not happened but we are well on the way. The facilities at DKIT are to be commended and Mr. Cummins is to be congratulated.

Mr. Denis Cummins:

I thank everyone for their positive comments about our institutions, which is encouraging. I will deal with the questions raised by Deputy Fitzpatrick and Senator Brennan, and my colleagues will deal with the others.

The future strategy of DKIT is built around a collaboration and alliance with Dublin City University. We have mentioned the greatest challenge we face in recruiting students from Northern Ireland is the misplaced perception. The existence of an alliance with DCU will help to deal with that. The progression path that will be followed by other institutes of technology is towards technological universities. Mr. Hannigan will comment on that shortly in response to Senator D'Arcy's question about the early publication of the future strategy.

Deputy Fitzpatrick mentioned PayPal in Dundalk. We are working closely with the company to help recruit employees. Only yesterday we had a meeting involving our careers services, language department and work placement office. There is great potential both with PayPal and eBay.

Deputy Smith mentioned agriculture, and he will be aware of a successful collaboration between DKIT and Ballyhaise College in County Cavan, which we are keen to grow. There is huge demand for agriculture programmes and we are not able to meet the demand. One of the difficulties in our system is what while there areas in which we have spare capacity, there are other areas where we cannot cope with demand and it is not easy to move resources between departments. We provide an honours degree course in sustainable agriculture, which we run successfully with Ballyhaise College. We have an ambition to introduce an agrifood degree, and there is big demand in our region for that, but we are challenged in doing that because of staffing restrictions.

Senator Brennan asked whether we are happy with the number of students recruited from Northern Ireland. All three institutions would say we are not at all happy about that. My institute's new strategic plan sets targets to increase recruitment from Northern Ireland. We referred earlier to the problems and barriers, but it is up to us to break them down. Some are cultural and political and they are difficult, but others are related to simple logistics such as how students make applications and providing better information. We have made a proposal for a scholarship targeted at students from Northern Ireland specifically to come south. Our three institutions have a bigger interest.

I refer to Senator White's criticism of the Higher Education Authority. The authority looks at the overall system for the entire country. Our institutions, given their location, are particularly interested in Northern Ireland. I suspect this will not be an issue in Tralee or Cork but better mobility will be key to our future development.

Mr. Paul Hannigan:

I will respond to Senator D'Arcy's question about whether we are happy with the landscape document published by the Minister. Mr. Cummins and I are at a disadvantage in that the report issued as we were heading here and, therefore, we have not yet had an opportunity to read it. However, I would like to correct the front page article in The Irish Times this morning, which said three technological universities were approved by Cabinet yesterday and an application from GMIT, Sligo IT and Letterkenny IT was refused. That is news to me because we did not make an application to be turned down. That is a major inaccuracy.

I will refer to the broader report shortly but there was a major missed opportunity. Two higher education strategies were developed over the past two years. The national higher education strategy in the Republic of Ireland was published in January 2011 and, in the middle of last year, the Northern Ireland higher education strategy was published. Having spoken to those developing the strategy on both sides of the Border, I thought there was a great opportunity at that stage to have a common chapter within both strategies to address cross-Border issues, including student mobility and so on. That did not happen. Paragraph 5.7 on page 23 of the Northern Ireland strategy refers to "cross-Border co-operation and student mobility". That is the extent of the commitment to cross-Border activity in the strategy. Our national higher education strategy contained commitments about collaboration between institutes of technology and universities in Northern Ireland. We were particularly interested in that because, at the time, we were pursuing a close collaboration with the University of Ulster. Those opportunities remain. There is a possibility that both strategies could be revisited and there could be an overlap. A common element could be developed within them because it is crazy that they are both developing with no overlap at all. Given both were developed at the same time, this does not make sense. That is where there should have been an engagement by the HEA to ensure that occurred. From the point of view of colleges in the Border region, we would have been dealing with an entirely different context because we would have had something specifically to work with.

We are engaged in rearguard action now where we are trying to redress the strategies that have been published and to examine the issues causing difficulty for student mobility and other elements of collaboration, to retrofit them in the strategies. That was a missed opportunity to commit to cross-Border collaboration generally and specifically in higher education. However, it is something the joint working group we propose could revisit and in which it could engage in a more proactive way. It seemed like the simplest thing in the world from my perspective, but obviously our comments at the time fell on deaf ears.

Jim D'Arcy (Fine Gael)
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Perhaps we could invite Mr. Hannigan back to discuss this issue again. However, I asked whether the institutes were happy with today's report and the proposals for clusters. Will DKIT be given the space and scope to move forward with its link to DCU, in particular? I thought the report was like a curate's egg.

Frank Feighan (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fine Gael)
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I am shocked by the report from a Northern Ireland perspective with only one paragraph referring to it. We have had 15 years of cross-Border operation and implementation of the Good Friday Agreement. The document has denied the inclusion of cross-Border support. I will not get into where that came from and why, but there were no checks or balances.

We talk about the implementation of all the strands of the Good Friday Agreement. The members of this committee are very involved but I am not sure if it goes through the Assembly.

Mr. Paul Hannigan:

I was glad to hear the Minister say earlier this morning that there is some element of cross-Border collaboration mentioned in the document to which Senator Jim D'Arcy referred. Earlier drafts of that documents did not include a reference to cross-Border collaboration. This is on both sides of the Border, not just on one side.

What I have been saying for a long time, and I have been shot down a number of times, is that because of the economic circumstances on both sides of the Border, from the political perspective this has become of less interest to people. It is also of little interest to anybody at present. While our institutions see it as vitally important to the hinterland we serve, we have to get the issue back on the political agenda and ensure that it is an issue worthy of consideration, which it did not get in the past. When we see a draft document with no element of cross-Border collaboration and highlight the fact, there is no point when it comes back with a paragraph in it.

Mary Moran (Labour)
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Was Mr. Hannigan consulted before this document was issued this morning?

Mr. Paul Hannigan:

Yes, there was definitely consultation. To set out the chronology, last year in 2012, the Minister met with the chairs and the presidents from each of the colleges, institutes of technology and universities. In that discussion in February 2012, there was an element of North-South collaboration. He subsequently met us again in November 2012 and there was no mention of cross-Border collaboration. A document was issued in January 2013, on which we were consulted and again there was only a slight mention, just one sentence on cross-Border co-operation. From our perspectives we went back with a very strong position on clusters - to which Senator D'Arcy referred - and raised the question of whether we would have a cross-Border regional cluster. We put it that we should engage from that perspective so that there is direct engagement with higher education institutions in the North. We try to deal with issues from that perspective. I am not sure what is in today's document, but I know the Minister said earlier that there was some element of cross-Border collaboration within the document he is publishing today.

Joe McHugh (Donegal North East, Fine Gael)
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Mr. James Brennan has something to add.

Mr. James Brennan:

Just in case there may be a perception that IT Sligo is disrespecting the question and not responding to it, I am not a member of the senior executive group, so in spite of the fact the Chairman said I was representing the views of the president, I would hesitate to represent the views of the president on that particular question.

Joe McHugh (Donegal North East, Fine Gael)
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I thank the delegates for their contribution. They have made a suggestion to the committee. Before we consider the ways we would follow up on it, may I ask the witnesses if they are getting a reciprocal buy-in from their colleagues north of the Border? Do the representatives from colleges in the North think in the same way as they do? If they do, should they not be part of the proposal for a North-South higher education working group? Is there work going on behind the scenes? I am trying to tease this out as to how we as a committee can develop this proposal with a buy-in from universities north of the Border.

Mr. Denis Cummins:

We have very good working relationships with the University of Ulster and Queens University, particular in the area of enterprise support programmes and INTERREG programmes. On the issue of student mobility there is less interest in that from our counterparts in Norther Ireland. Obviously there is an element of competition for students which comes into it as well, so that one can understand that. We have good collaboration with them at other levels.

Mr. Paul Hannigan:

There is a lot of collaboration and work and we are pushing on with the University of Ulster specifically in terms of trying to develop a cross-Border higher education region in the north west. Probably most of the impetus to develop that is coming from ourselves. I think the University of Ulster is very interested in developing it but once the economic circumstances changed on both sides of the Border, everybody went into retrenchment mode and that had a direct impact in terms of how we try to develop this. I think there would be an interest in looking at this issue because the demographics in Northern Ireland, as outlined in their strategy, is that there will be a decline in the number of school leavers for the next ten to 15 years in Northern Ireland. In the South it is the complete opposite. As a result there must be some synergy in terms of how we follow that through.

Mary Moran (Labour)
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Is the difference in the level of fees North and South a major problem?

Mr. Paul Hannigan:

In 2006, which does not seem that long ago, when they introduced the fee of £3,000 in Northern Ireland, the Institute of Technology in Letterkenny set up a stall in the shopping centre in Derry city which said "3,000 good reasons to come to Letterkenny IT".

Mary Moran (Labour)
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That is very good.

Mr. Paul Hannigan:

I am not sure if it had a major impact at the time but there is no doubt that the fee at that stage was having an impact on preventing people going from South to North. The fee structure generally has evened out a little because the student contribution in the Republic of Ireland will be €2,500 next year and the fee in Northern Ireland is £3,500.

Mary Moran (Labour)
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I think is £3,300 sterling.

Mr. Denis Cummins:

I think it is set to go to £9,000 in Northern Ireland and one would expect that would make a big difference. Just like the IT Letterkenny, Dundalk IT had a stall at the Buttercrane shopping centre in Newry but it did not result in a significant flow of students in our direction.

Mr. James Brennan:

The Institute of Technology Sligo went to King's Hall in Belfast with the same sort of message.

Joe McHugh (Donegal North East, Fine Gael)
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I know that plenty of school pupils in County Donegal fill out UCAS forms. I remember filling out an UCAS form for Jordanstown and perhaps Mr. Pat Doherty will comment on this point.

Mr. Pat Doherty:

When discussing collaboration North and South, one of the problems in the Northern side is that education is divided into two different departments, Mr. John O'Dowd is the Minister with responsibility for first and second level education. An Alliance Party Minister has responsibility for third level and that will be resolved because the Department will be split between the Departments of Enterprise and Education but at present it is a separate Department. There is an added problem of linkages and that report from the Department should not have got passed in the way it did get passed.

Joe McHugh (Donegal North East, Fine Gael)
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May I suggest, subject to the agreement of members, that the committee formally brings this proposal to the attention of the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Ruairí Quinn, who was present this morning so he will be interested in the follow up meeting that the delegates are attending?

We can ask the Minister to contact both Mr. Stephen Farry and Mr. John O'Dowd in relation to the delegates' proposals. Let us start the conversation because if one looks at what is happening on a cross-Border basis in regard to health, between Altnagelvin and Letterkenny hospitals and also the Belfast and Dublin hospitals in relation to paediatric and cardiology services, there is an awful lot of pragmatic practical engagement going on at a health level and there is no reason it cannot happen at an education level. Subject to the agreement of committee members we will write to the Minister for Education and Skills, bringing this issue to his attention and he can communicate directly with both Ministers in Northern Ireland.

Martin Ferris (Kerry North-West Limerick, Sinn Fein)
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Other counties might benefit if they had sent their budding managers to the IT in Tralee just as Donegal has benefited from Mr. Jim McGuinness.

Joe McHugh (Donegal North East, Fine Gael)
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Tralee is a kind of a border - - - -

Mary White (Fianna Fail)
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Should we set a target for delivery on what the committee is trying to achieve and track it?

Joe McHugh (Donegal North East, Fine Gael)
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We are starting the conversation. I think Mr. Paul Hannigan rightly pointed out there is a HEA and other reports with references to cross-Border provisions. It is up to us to work on the issues. This is not set in stone and we can drive it and work on this together.

Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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What might be relevant is the future projected enrolment at third level North and South. There has been a significant increase in the level of participation in the South in the past 12 to 15 years. I do not know, but presume there has been a similar increase in the number north of the Border. With increasing levels of participation we need to maximise existing infrastructure and co-operation.

If we had the projected enrolment figures for third level, it might bolster the case for increased collaboration.

Mr. Paul Hannigan:

I have a document that I can leave with the committee from the Department of Education and Skills showing the projected number for the next number of years in the higher education sector in the Republic of Ireland.

Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I presume the number is increasing.

Mr. Paul Hannigan:

Yes, absolutely. It is going through the roof.

Joe McHugh (Donegal North East, Fine Gael)
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We will circulate that to members.

Frank Feighan (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fine Gael)
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This has been one of the most proactive and aggressive meetings that we have had here. It will have a practical impact on the ground.

I agree with Senator White's proposal to the effect that we should invite our guests to return in six months' time in order that we might discover exactly what progress has been made. It is very important that the committee should be seen to be driving this matter forward.

Jim D'Arcy (Fine Gael)
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I second that.

Joe McHugh (Donegal North East, Fine Gael)
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I thank our guests for attending. The joint committee will now go into private session.