Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees

Thursday, 30 May 2013

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Implementation of the Good Friday Agreement

Exploring Education and Overcoming Social Disconnection: Discussion with Minister for Education and Skills

10:30 am

Photo of Joe McHughJoe McHugh (Donegal North East, Fine Gael)
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As we have a quorum we will commence in public session. Apologies have been received from Deputies Regina Doherty, Seán Crowe, and Joe O'Reilly.

I remind members of the usual drill regarding mobile telephones. I ask that they switch them off or put them on silent mode.

We will have a discussion with the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Ruairí Quinn, to explore education as a tool for empowerment and overcoming social disconnection. In layman or laywoman terms, that means we will have a good conversation about education and how we can learn and share experiences in terms of tackling disadvantage. The Minister will give account initially and then I will open up the discussion to the members.

The Minister is very welcome. It is his first time to attend before this committee. We appreciate him coming here and giving of his time. We hope to have a good engaging conversation this morning. His presence here today has garnered considerable interest in this discussion. I appreciate the attendance of members from different organisations and individuals in the Visitors Gallery who have come here today.

I will throw out a statistic that would be in the back of everybody's mind, namely, that of all the students who go to university in the Republic, only 0.5% are from Northern Ireland. That 0.5% statistic from 2008 has been a recurring one. There are issues around mobility, mobility challenges and mobility opportunities into which we will hopefully delve today.

I invite the Member to make his presentation and I will then open the discussion up to members.

Photo of Ruairi QuinnRuairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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I thank Chairman and committee members. I will speak to the paper I have prepared, which has been circulated, and go down through the headings rather than read it formally into the record, but I presume it can be taken as being read formally into the record.

The first issue is literacy and numeracy. In 2009, this State got a wake up call in regard to our presumption that we had one of the best education systems in the world. It was a presumption that was based on an internal form of arrogance because we had nothing with which to compare it. It was a case of if one says it often enough, one begins to believe it. We dropped from fifth place to seventeenth place. We had a similar but not as precipitous a drop in terms of mathematics. The Department got word of it in August, did some research and when the results were published in October, it had started to create a response. There was a change of government in March 2011. A draft literacy and numeracy strategy was prepared and it was finalised and formally launched by me in June of that year. It is appropriate to say to this committee that much of the reform and change in the system, and I can get details on this if people want it, was based on some of the experience in Northern Ireland. The Northern Ireland Department of Education had started to reform the way in which it was teaching literacy and numeracy. There is very close co-operation between the inspectorate in the North and in the South. There is co-operation with Wales and Scotland as well because they have separate education systems under devolution. We have now put in place a literacy and numeracy strategy on which we will probably get some results later this year because we are into the new cycle. I would be happy to answer any questions on that.

One of the changes we made in the context of the literacy and numeracy strategy is around initial teacher education, and this is confirmed in a document that will be published later today. We have had 19 centres of teacher education for both primary and post-primary in the country. We realised that there needed to be a change in the way teachers were educated. The changes, which I can speak to in detail, are, in summary, that the 19 colleges - most of them privately owned by the Catholic Church or the Church of Ireland which reflects the history, our system of primary education being 182 years old having been established in 1831 - are being reorganised into six clusters of education provision. A primary school teacher will now study for four years rather than three years. The fourth year will be focused very much on pedagogic skills, namely, learning how children learn.

The post-primary secondary school teacher will now do a two year H.Dip course rather than the one year course, and again there is an emphasis on the way people learn, learning techniques and so on. I can go into the detail on that.

I have already referred to PISA. There are two other literacy testings - TIMSS and PIRLS - in which we have participated. The results of the Progress in International Reading Literacy Study, known as PIRLS, and the Trends in International Mathematics and Science Study, TIMSS, are very positive from our primary school point of view. Primary school students scored above average in literacy, mathematics and science. In mathematics, Ireland was placed 17th out of 50 participating countries, and in science we were placed 22nd out of 50 participating countries.

The PIRLS report shows that in reading, Irish students were ranked tenth out of 45 participating countries. Students in only five countries performed significantly better than Irish students. They were Hong Kong, Finland, Singapore, the Russian Federation, and Northern Ireland. As I said, we are learning from our colleagues in Northern Ireland the way they have been able to improve their performance, and there is very good co-operation between both systems at institutional and ministerial level between myself and John O'Dowd, and also at a personal level in terms of individuals on this island.

The second aspect I want to discuss is the change in our junior certificate. The most significant development is our plan to reform the post-primary junior cycle for children from ages 12 and 13 to 15 and 16 in our secondary system. The framework published in October 2012 sets out the principal statements of learning and key skills that will underpin the new junior cycle.

We have concerns about the literacy and numeracy standards achieved by students. Consequently, the key tenants of the literacy and numeracy strategy are integrated within and complement the framework. The framework is designed to provide schools with flexibility rather than restrict them as they develop a junior cycle programme that reflects the educational and personal needs of their students.

In addition to its own range of literacy initiatives provided through the school system, the Department has had some involvement in the prevention and early intervention programme in Dublin through the work of the Department's inspectorate. These projects, undertaken in Tallaght, Ballymun and Darndale, involve a range of pilot programmes to improve outcomes in areas such as literacy, speech and language, parenting, health and pro-social behaviour. The projects, which are now concluding, are currently being evaluated by national and international experts.

In Tallaght west,the emphasis was to ensure that the initiatives complemented existing education disadvantage initiatives. In Youngballymun,the Department participated in the Write Minded Implementation Team, which, in partnership with local schools and other key stakeholders, developed a local literacy strategy which focused on two strands: school-based literacy support to complement Delivering Equality of Opportunity in Schools, DEIS, and family and community-based literacy support. Overall, the principal strength of the Youngballymun interventions is that they built on and enhanced the work of existing mainstream services in an integrated manner.

The Department has also participated in a number of education-related initiatives to support Limerick Regeneration. These have largely been run by the Programme Innovation Development Fund, which is a joint initiative of Government and Atlantic Philanthropies, and Strategic Innovation in Education, a project set up by the University of Limerick to support the education sector in responding to Limerick Regeneration.

My colleague, the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, recently announced a new area-based poverty initiative, which will be jointly funded by her Department and Atlantic Philanthropies, and will seek to implement programmes which have been proven to work in improving outcomes for children and families at risk of disadvantage. The new initiative reflects the programme for Government commitment to adopt an area-based approach to child poverty in co-operation with philanthropic partners, drawing upon best international practice and existing services, to break the cycle of child poverty where it is most deeply entrenched.

In the context of the literacy and numeracy strategy, it is particularly important that learning from previous and current literacy initiatives being delivered in schools can be mainstreamed to ensure the widest possible benefit from the considerable investment that has been made.

It is important to note that in all cases PEIP literacy initiatives are being implemented locally alongside schools which are part of DEIS, Delivering Equality of Opportunity in Schools, the Government's main policy initiative for tackling educational disadvantage. This means that they can all avail of the considerable additional resources allocated to DEIS schools in those areas where disadvantage is most concentrated. Smaller classes and support programmes, one of which is the home-school-community liaison officer, usually a teacher, who makes contact with families that are having difficulty of one kind or another. The other is the school completion programme, which is an attempt to ensure young people stay in school for as long as possible.

We believe it is important that we operate an inclusive school system where all children feel welcome. The Education Act 1998 sets out clearly that schools are required to operate admissions policies that provide for maximum accessibility to the school. Most schools in Ireland, most of the time, are inclusive and welcoming of all children. The Education Act, however, is light touch in terms of providing ways and means of ensuring that all schools welcome all children. Other than appeals under section 29 of that Act, which have become cumbersome and often adversarial both for schools and parents, the Department is of the view, and I share the view, that the current legislation does not include an adequate set of provisions to deal with this matter, which is the reason we will change the system. I will shortly bring to Government the draft heads of a Bill entitled the education (admission to school) Bill 2013. In bringing forward legislative proposals, I do not want to unnecessarily intrude into the way schools do their business. The aim is to ensure that schools decide on applications for enrolment in a structured, fair and transparent manner. The proposals will be published in draft form along with the statutory instruments to give them effect. They will be referred to the Oireachtas committee here. I hope to have a fairly comprehensive debate and then bring back the final proposals.

Turning to North-South co-operation, specifically on literacy and numeracy, I am pleased to note the ongoing dialogue which takes place here under the auspices of the Good Friday Agreement between the education authorities in both jurisdictions on a range of issues of mutual interest, but particularly in relation to measures to improve educational outcomes in our schools. In particular, I note that the last meeting of the North-South Literacy and Numeracy Working Groupdiscussed the prospect of a joint report by the two inspectorates, focusing on best practice in both literacy and numeracy in post-primary settings.

Encouraging an appreciation of the value of learning is a key task for all of us who are interested in raising educational standards. Last year's promotional media campaign in Northern Ireland - Get Involved Because Education Works - emphasised the fact that education does not begin or end at the school gate and that families and the wider community can contribute to and enjoy education.

A current initiative in this jurisdiction is "The Family Project", a weekly television programme which showcases the educational tools and techniques available to all families. It demonstrates how families can work together to improve collective learning. Since 2000, the National Adult Literacy Agency, NALA, has been using the mass medium of television to highlight literacy issues, outline supports that are available, motivate people to return to education and provide opportunities for learning in the privacy of their own home. NALA has also developed a website to help parents support their children's education. Entitled Help My Kid Learn, it is a website where people can see that supporting a child's literacy and numeracy development is a natural, easy and fun activity that can be integrated into any part of their day.

Although there are a number of marked differences between our education systems, we face similar challenges North and South when it comes to raising standards, particularly in the area of literacy, and I believe that we have much to gain from a sharing of learning and experience in order to develop sound policies for future action in this important area.

Photo of Joe McHughJoe McHugh (Donegal North East, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister. I will now take questions and observations from members. I call Deputy Kitt.

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister for the overview he has given on education.

On the proposed four-year primary teacher training course, I have spoken to some students who are looking forward to it. However, this means there will be a gap in a particular year when no students will emerge from the teacher training colleges. If I recall correctly, this happened previously when the teacher training course was lengthened from two to three years. Certain issues arose and teachers who wished to retire were persuaded to stay on for another year. Has the Minister thought this through in the context of the teacher training courses at Hibernia College and whether there might be more students on such courses? As I understand it, the Department of Education and Skills is aware of how many primary school teachers emerge from the colleges each year. Consequently, it is possible to control the numbers, unlike, for example, second level teacher training. Has the Minister given consideration to what might be done if there is a shortage of teachers? This certainly happened in the past when we moved from a two to a three year course. However, my understanding is that students are looking forward to the extended course.

The Minister has also mentioned the number of teacher training centres which he is talking about reducing. What is the final figure? Can he give members further information in that regard?

10:40 am

Photo of Ruairi QuinnRuairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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The intention is to have six clusters or six coming together.

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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While I am on the issue of teachers, the practice of appointing or retaining teachers on the basis of enrolment levels in the previous September has been followed for years. Has the Minister given consideration to it? As members are discussing North-South bodies today, does this happen in the North or in any other European country? Obviously, difficulties arise when enrolment increases in a school, but teachers are still being appointed or retained on the basis of old figures which obviously are out of date.

I refer to the panels which I gather are still based on the diocesan system. There appear to be many issues where people cannot transfer from one diocese to another. A person could live in one diocese while teaching in another and could find himself or herself, when on a panel, being obliged to travel long distances. While the panel system is good from the perspective of job security, it is not very good if one is obliged to travel very long distances to the next school.

Photo of Joe McHughJoe McHugh (Donegal North East, Fine Gael)
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If the Minister does not mind, I will take two speakers at a time. I acknowledge this involves taking multiple questions.

Photo of Frank FeighanFrank Feighan (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fine Gael)
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I have two questions for the Minister. First, on the area-based rural initiative to tackle child poverty, will this be based in DEIS areas or will it be expanded to cater for other areas also? On the point as to whether an inclusive school system is operated, most schools in Ireland most of the time are inclusive and welcoming of all children. Obviously, the system has been tested, probably by parents and schools. Will the Minister outline incidents that give a flavour of where problems actually arise and what precisely does he intend to do about it?

Photo of Ruairi QuinnRuairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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The Chairman should try to ensure my answers are short, as I have a tendency to go on a bit.

To answer Deputy Kitt's question, we do not expect that there will be a gap. Some teacher unions have complained about the number who are qualifying as teachers or applying to undertake a transfer degree course. For example, someone with an arts degree can apply to take the conversion course to become a qualified and recognised primary school teacher. It is one profession which is in short supply worldwide. Irish people are particularly well suited, for example, to teaching in the United Kingdom and the south of England has a massive crisis in the provision of both primary school places and teachers. Sadly, the same situation does not obtain across the rest of United Kingdom, but there is a shortage of teachers. Consequently, we cannot stop people from doing these courses. We can limit the supply in the public sector, but as of now, we do not anticipate, on the basis of what we can foresee, that there will be a crisis in the gap to which the Deputy referred.

In respect of the enrolment numbers and the payment of schools, I have just come from a new school that is opening in Swords, where people were complaining about the problem they had experienced. When the school started, it had 24 pupils, but it now has 224. However, it is being paid a capitation grant based on last year's enrolment figure - just 100 pupils. I am told the reason the system was put in place was that when the primary school system was, in population terms, declining, it was a way of providing some stability within the school system. The White Paper published in the mid-1990s by a previous Minister for Education, Niamh Breathnach, stated the big challenge facing the primary school system was managing decline. It was then thought we would be losing population in schools. At the time, there were just under 500,000 pupils, but we now have 520,000 and rising. There will be 70,000 additional primary and post-primary kids in the system within the next seven or eight years. It is a cash-flow problem for some schools and as we are in straitened economic circumstances, I do not have much room for manoeuvre. However, I recognise this is a major challenge for rapidly growing schools and it will become an even greater challenge.

On the panel system and the diocesan structure, I share the Deputy's view. We would like the Catholic authorities to modernise their system of allocating school teachers and resources and some progress has been made in this regard. The Deputy's family has made a great contribution to the world of education and I am merely telling him things he knows well, but, in effect, we have a public private partnership system of education which, as I stated, dates back to 1831. In a sense, the State undertook to pay the salaries of teachers, set the curriculum and provide for the examination process, while the partner on the private side, namely, the patron, provided the premises, either completely or partially in the form of a site, as well as providing the board of management and for supervision. The patron became the employer that ran the school. That was a 32 county system which, by and large, is still in place and essentially has not changed. We had a primary school examination at the end of sixth class which I think - Deputy Aodhán Ó Ríordáin should help me - was abolished in 1967.

Photo of Aodhán Ó RíordáinAodhán Ó Ríordáin (Dublin North Central, Labour)
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It was something like that.

Photo of Ruairi QuinnRuairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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It was a long way back.

On Deputy Frank Feighan's question about the area-based initiative, I am not entirely sure and must revert to him to ensure greater clarity. While there is an application process, I do not have the details to hand, but I will forward them to him.

On the reference to inclusive schools and the reason for the enrolment policy measures I have discussed, we have three kinds of post-primary school, namely, VEC schools, community colleges of one kind or another and the traditional free voluntary schools, as they are known in the jargon and which, by and large, have been run by the religious teaching orders. The community schools evolved from a situation in which, typically, a town had the brothers at one end, the sisters at the other and a technical school in the middle. The three schools then came together and are now funded by the State. However, they are independent of the VECs, although there is an involvement with them and their structures can vary.

The National Council for Special Education has recently published a report with a new set of 28 recommendations which I received on 17 May. Having spoken to parents of children with special needs, the council found they encountered a kind of soft barrier, where schools would decline to enrol such pupils, even though they had space for them. A school would suggest to the parents that it thought the VEC school down the road would be better equipped to meet the challenges the child would present. Alternatively, schools would claim they did not necessarily have all the requisite resources or state they would not take in the child in question without an undertaking from the Department of Education and Skills that a full grant would be given. One must be careful in how one decodes all of this because one is not sure one is getting the code right, but part of it is that schools compete for pupils in parts of the country. They compete on the basis of their school examination results and it is suggested they may do this if they consider that taking in such a pupil will require more time and will not necessarily enhance the academic performance of the school at junior cycle in the junior certificate examination.

We do not have proof positive but we know that the number of appeals under section 29 for non-admission to a school have risen exponentially, are costly and take up a great deal of teachers' time in July and August. That is the reference to that.

10:50 am

Mr. Pat Doherty:

I welcome the Minister's submission.

I have three broad areas. I am aware that there is a slight disjoint in terms of the two Departments because in the South, the Minister covers first, second and third and in the North, the Department of Education covers first and second and the Department of Employment and Learning covers third level, although the proposed restructuring of the Assembly and the Executive might well resolve that. I would be concerned that a joint survey which was ready in January of this year was to be taken at the February meeting of the North-South Ministerial Council, but they did not get round to that. It is now scheduled to be taken at the October meeting. I seek reassurance that there would be no further slippage on that report being dealt with.

Photo of Ruairi QuinnRuairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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Is this the cross-Border strategy?

Mr. Pat Doherty:

The cross-Border survey.

Second, I understand that the universities in the South are independent and, therefore, the Minister can have influence but not necessarily control. The recognition of A level qualifications of the North in the system in the South needs to be resolved so that we have a broad understanding of how it works. There are some specifics that keep being raised in our constituency offices which we find difficult to deal with.

Third, there is a programme of promoting Southern institutions in the schools in the North and we hope to build on that. I am not aware of any such programme in the South promoting the two universities in the North.

Finally, and this may be anecdotal rather than survey based, the education systems on these islands are broadly rated as follows: Scotland is the best, the South is the second best, the North is the third, Wales is the fourth and England is the bottom of the heap. In his introductory remarks, the Minister spoke of dropping from fifth to seventeenth place and the efforts needed to move both North and South further up that list.

Photo of Brendan SmithBrendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I have three quick questions for the Minister. Are there any proposals to advance or develop a common curriculum, North and South, in a particular subject or subjects?

With regard to rural schools, in parts of the Six Counties, in particular, in Fermanagh with which I am familiar because I live on the Border, there are considerable concerns about proposed closures, not of really small schools but of schools with substantial enrolment.

Photo of Ruairi QuinnRuairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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What numbers would Deputy Smith consider substantial?

Photo of Brendan SmithBrendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Well in excess of 100 anyway, from what I gather from some of the commentary in local newspapers and from residents. Has the idea of co-operation on access to schools on both sides of the Border been mooted? Some travel from North to South and vice versa, but the numbers are small. If there was a gap in an area, be it South or North of the Border, are there any such proposals?

On skills shortages, of which the Minister will be aware in specific areas, have any particular initiatives been undertaken, at further education level or third level, North or South, to address specific skills shortages, be it in language proficiency or science subjects?

Photo of Martin FerrisMartin Ferris (Kerry North-West Limerick, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Minister for his presentation.

First, following on from what Pat Doherty stated regarding recognition of A levels from the North, I do not accept that is a contributing factor explaining he low entrance rate from the North in third level here. I think the rate is 0.5% or 0.6%. It is a mitigating factor in building a harmonious and all-island aspect to our education policies.

Getting back to the Twenty-six Counties, I would concur with the Minister who linked child poverty, regeneration and educational disadvantage. Where there is economic disadvantage, there is educational disadvantage and a lack of early intervention which is vitally necessary. Is there any cognisance given to the need for an enhanced programme of lowering the pupil-teacher ratio, particularly in the most disadvantaged areas, for a child who is born in economic circumstances outside his or her control?

I have one other questions relating to the Six Counties. I strongly believe in de-sectarianising the institution of education. The power that various church groups have over education is grotesque.

Regarding a forward management plan on education in an all-island capacity, has any progress been made towards moving in that direction?

Photo of Ruairi QuinnRuairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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I welcome Pat Doherty. We go back a bit in time.

The joint survey to which he refers was an initiative proposed by my Northern counterpart, Mr. John O'Dowd, MLA, and it responds to some of the matters about which Deputy Smith asked. There was an initial resistance from the Unionist side in Northern Ireland to it but I fully supported it. We undertook a survey of parents on either side of the Border, at 20 km for post-primary and at 10 km for primary, to see whether there was an interest in doing exactly what Deputy Smith stated, to offer parents, because of the arbitrary nature of the Border, the ability to send their child to a school of their choice on the other side of the Border if that is what they wanted. Frankly, the results were less than promising. I would like to offer it and see it happen.

I can link that matter to Deputy Smith's second question, which was about the small schools. It would be a way in which we could sustain the viability of small schools in rural areas, by allowing children from, for example, the reformed church tradition in the South to travel to reformed church schools in the North and vice versa. Perhaps residents in the North, if there was a gaelscoil south of the Border, would be able to access that. The principle is removing any barrier that exists and then enabling parents to simply make that choice themselves.

As Deputy Ferris referred to it, I will be trying to move this at the October meeting, which will be held in Armagh, to try to advance it. It is not threatening. We had to assure people that it was not some kind of hidden agenda and it was only to facilitate parents. We are doing it pragmatically in the area of health. Altnagelvin Hospital, for example, regularly accepts patients from across the Border. I cannot see any difficulty. If the parents are left in charge and if they want to make the choice to send their child in any direction, then it is a matter that should be facilitated rather than prevented.

The question of the A levels is a problem. The Central Applications Office, CAO, system in the South, which is the college admissions office, is owned and controlled by the seven universities. It was set up in the late 1980s or early 1990s. They have offered participation to all of the other educational institutions, including Griffith College which is a private college, so that pupils finishing second-level school fill out their CAO form in the months of January and February.

The CAO grades leaving certificate results alphabetically according to the grades A1, A2, etc., and it is according to these grades that points are awarded. We have referred the matter in question to the CAO already. It was referred by a North-South enterprise working party because complaints were made in the North about the fact that an A* is not being accorded the value it should get in the CAO form. I will be raising this with the CAO again. We are talking about transitions to determine whether there can be an increase in the value. We are being told by Northern Irish students that the full value of their educational achievement is not being properly recognised by the CAO system in the South. Hence, there is a very low take-up. There are many more southerners going to study in the North than there are northerners coming to the South. It is claimed this is one of the factors responsible.

Deputy Smith raised the question of a common curriculum. There are no proposals on this at present and none has been suggested.

With regard to skills shortages and co-operation, I am publishing today my response to the Higher Education Authority's survey of third level educational institutions' reformation. There is a reference therein to better co-operation between the North and South in the area of third level provision and access. The next phase of the overall study will show that we need to achieve better value for money, eliminate duplication and waste within the system and have better co-operation between colleges within the South. However, I would like to see better co-operation between colleges on an east–west basis also. I hope that will happen.

Deputy Ferris referred to child poverty. It hardly comes as a surprise that all the studies point to the fact that deprivation in the home contributes significantly to deprivation in educational achievement. By the time many young people go to primary school, they carry disadvantage into the classroom. The DEIS programme, which has been in operation for some years, is an attempt to deal with this by giving extra resources to the affected schools and by having a more favourable allocation of teachers per pupil than is the norm. The schools are inspected in a different way from others. They must prepare educational programmes. In many cases, they do achieve good outcomes relative to their starting point.

At a recent ESRI conference I attended, reference was made to improving the quality of the preschool ECCE year. I acknowledge we are discussing this in the context of the controversy over a crèche. I hope that, in the context of SOLAS, the body replacing FÁS in the field of further education, money can be spent on upskilling people who work in preschool year facilities to level 5 on our national framework of qualifications. The objective is to improve the quality of preschool education. This is not to be confused with the minding of children for parents at work. The latter is a different phenomenon.

I believe I have answered all the questions. If I have not answered one, I apologise.

11:00 am

Photo of Aodhán Ó RíordáinAodhán Ó Ríordáin (Dublin North Central, Labour)
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I thank the Minister for attending. One reason I was looking forward to this conversation was that, in the northern context, we believed this committee could determine how it could be of benefit in the educational sphere. The Minister has touched on many of the issues already. When analysing some of the areas we have been to and some of the issues that underpin sectarian tensions in the North with a view to overcoming them, education arose time and again as the great liberator, the one thing that will help youths and others who have experienced conflict to bounce back, regardless of their circumstances. How can we be of benefit to the institutions in the North? Can we share experiences, particularly regarding educational disadvantage? Conflict tends to happen in areas of social and economic deprivation and tends to be something that poorer people engage in. Particularly in the North, victims have tended to be from a lower socioeconomic status.

Will the Minister elaborate on literacy, oral language skills, numeracy and the area-based strategies that the Department of Children and Youth Affairs is trying to roll out in the South? I wish to ask about the capacity to share experience in respect of areas of the North that are mirrored in the South, and areas where there is deeply entrenched disadvantage. We must examine the capacity to empower parents. The problem with schooling is that children do not live in schools. There is a limit to what a teacher and a school can achieve in giving children basic skills to survive in life. It is a question of empowering parents also. The tragedy with the Irish education system, both in the North and South, is that schools are used as an enforcer of identity, not just as educational institutions. Children are sent to a particular school because it espouses the identity with which their parents feel most comfortable. Parents feel their child's identity can be enhanced in the school, and this is almost the priority. We have had an interesting discussion on the motivation of Catholic and Protestant parents in respect of their children. There is deep suspicion regarding integrated schooling. I noted this on both sides of the divide in the North. I found this interesting because, from the outside, integrated schooling might appear to be an obvious move to make. In the North, it is not as popular. What capacity have we to share experiences? What can we learn from what is happening in the schools system and wider community in Northern Ireland? The Minister referred to the preschool experience. How can we learn from the Northern Ireland experience?

Photo of Mary MoranMary Moran (Labour)
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This follows on from the debate we had in the Seanad yesterday. I really welcome the Bill that is to come before the House on admissions policy. It will assure us of the existence of an open system for including people with special educational needs, those with different ethnic backgrounds and religions, and people who move to another area during the school year.

With regard to the extension to the higher diploma for secondary school teachers and the four-year degree for primary school teachers, will there be more teacher training? Will it be more practical in effect? I hope it will be more practical rather than just a book-learning and rote-learning experience, which has been the case to date. I hope additional time will be devoted to concentrating solely on special educational needs such that teachers can be trained to teach pupils with a variety of needs.

Coming from Dundalk and being well aware of the problems there, I draw the Minister's attention to the article by Andy Pollak, which I was given some days ago and which is contained in the notes. It is an excellent study on cross-Border mobility. Again, we return to the problem of recognition of qualifications, which others have raised.

I would ask that institutes of technology, in particular, could be included in the UCAS system and listed in its directory. We talk about having greater communications but that would be one way of increasing awareness. The common theme emerging is a lack of communication.

11:10 am

Photo of Joe McHughJoe McHugh (Donegal North East, Fine Gael)
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As the Senator said, the precedent has not been set.

Photo of Jack WallJack Wall (Kildare South, Labour)
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I welcome the Minister and thank him for his presentation. My question is about the opportunities for people in disadvantaged areas to attend third-level education. Is the Minister satisfied that a sufficient percentage of people from such areas can attain third-level status?

The unemployment figures are unfortunately remaining stubbornly high here, as they are in Northern Ireland. Is the Minister satisfied that there are sufficient opportunities for such people to return to education? If so, what can be done to facilitate them in this regard? There is a common denominator concerning social disadvantage and unemployment. Following our visits to the North, we are aware that there is a major concern, especially in Protestant areas, about people being unable to obtain third-level education.

Photo of Mary WhiteMary White (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the Minister and thank him for his presentation. It is very disappointing that since the Good Friday Agreement, the national strategy for higher education - particularly under the aegis of the Higher Education Authority - has not driven collaboration between North and South. The Minister should push the authority to drive that strategy and get the message out that we are in favour of collaboration.

I would like to hear the Minister's opinion on pre-school education. Would it not be a good idea to attach pre-school education to the national school structure? I was involved in opening a pre-school in Athlone. The school principal had a free classroom and gave it to two ex-SNA teachers who had undertaken further education. It was a very satisfactory situation in that school building.

A new school that was opened a few years ago in County Monaghan has its own privately-run pre-school attached. The Minister knows the point I am making. Would it not be ideal if our pre-school education was in the same building and on the same format as the national school? We would then have an equally high standard of training for pre-school education.

Photo of Joe McHughJoe McHugh (Donegal North East, Fine Gael)
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I am conscious of the time and the Minister has to attend the House for a vote, so we really have to go. May I ask the Minister and his officials to formally respond to the three contributors?

Photo of Mary WhiteMary White (Fianna Fail)
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What about the pre-school issue?

Photo of Joe McHughJoe McHugh (Donegal North East, Fine Gael)
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Perhaps the Minister could respond specifically to the pre-school question.

Photo of Ruairi QuinnRuairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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I agree with the Senator, but the legacy is of junior and senior infant classes at INTO rates of pay. That is the cost factor, to cut to the chase. I have just come back from a new school where there was capacity, and there is a not-for-profit pre-school in it. It is facilitating parents and it works.

I would like to see co-operation on the history curriculum. We should get away from the kind of Celtic-Rangers controversy - where our victories are their defeats and vice versa - to a wider approach using modern media. The junior cycle reform will give students at that level a better opportunity to explore modules, particularly from Dundalk to Letterkenny where they are living in the reality of a cross-Border zone and know about this. It is something that I can see evolving.

Because we are mainstreaming children with learning difficulties, teachers in training colleges will be introduced to a pedagogy of how different learners learn and particularly those with different kinds of disabilities. In that way, they will be aware of it.

As regards the H.Dip., I personally want to see a break in the umbilical cord system whereby a bright girl or boy goes to college and comes back to do their H.Dip. in a school and stays in that school. They consequently have no broad experience outside that very narrow path. It should be made a requirement before somebody can get into the system on a permanent basis, that they would have experience of teaching in two or three different types of school.

As regards the special access programmes, Trinity College in particular has a very good one. Students who do post-leaving certificate courses and examinations are better equipped to get into university if they come from a disadvantaged area and have not been in that narrow academic stream in the traditional leaving certificate class.

Photo of Joe McHughJoe McHugh (Donegal North East, Fine Gael)
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The division bells have stopped, so we have to go. I wish to thank the Minister very much. We will seek a follow-up engagement, but we appreciate him being here this morning.

Sitting suspended at 11.25 a.m. and resumed at 11.40 a.m.