Tom Hayes (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I thank members of the joint committee for their attendance here this morning. I have already referred to mobile telephone interference.

Yesterday, our committee commenced its hearings on the challenges facing individuals, families and communities from the rise of social media, including the challenges posed by cyber bullying and on-line harassment. We have heard insightful contributions from the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Pat Rabbitte, and representatives of the Office of Internet Safety.

At the outset of yesterday's meeting, I said the committee was commencing this consultation with an open mind. There is no doubt that social media have immense potential for public good and civic engagement. This committee simply wants to ensure that they do so without impacting adversely on people's individual rights.

We look forward to hearing from social media companies today on the safeguards that currently exist both on Facebook and Twitter. In particular, we wish to explore what systems currently exist both for users and non-users of Facebook and Twitter, who feel they have been wronged, to uphold their individual rights through these channels.

Given that social media is changing the way in which many citizens interact with one another, we thought it was important for the committee to familiarise itself with the topic, particularly in light of disquiet, which has been expressed in some quarters, that there are no curbs on the irresponsible use of these channels. We want to explore how possible policies can be put in place to increase awareness of cyber bullying and to enhance accountability for the minority who abuse on-line channels.

As well as hearing the views of the Minister, Deputy Rabbitte, and the office of Internet safety, we will also hear from the National Anti-Bullying Coalition and YouTube. Furthermore, we have invited written submissions via social media channels from interested groups and individuals. At the end of that process we propose to prepare a report for the Houses of the Oireachtas and then make recommendations to the Minister and the Government.

On behalf of the committee, I want to welcome Ms Sinéad McSweeney, director of public policy at Twitter. She is here to advise us about the safeguards that Twitter currently employs for users and non-users of the platform.

I now wish to draw witnesses attention to the fact that, by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to this committee. However, if witnesses are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in relation to particular matters and continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. Witnesses are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given. They are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. I also wish to advise witnesses that the opening statements that have been submitted to the committee may be published on the committee's website after this meeting. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I now invite Ms Sinéad McSweeney, Twitter's Public Policy Director for Europe, the Middle East and Africa, to address the committee.

Ms Sinéad McSweeney:

Thank you, Chairman. It is interesting, if not a little strange, for me to be here this morning.

As I came through the gate, it struck me that more than 20 years have passed since I first stepped into the Leinster House complex. I actually made my way to the same corner of the car park but in those days it was the College of Art as Leinster House 2000 had not yet been built. I hope someone else remembers those days because otherwise I will feel really old.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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We have forgotten them.

Ms Sinéad McSweeney:

Over those 20 years, I have attended committee meetings such as this in many guises. I have been a transcriber who ensured there is a public record of the debates. I have been seated beside Ministers, Garda Commissioners and Sir Hugh Orde from the Police Service of Northern Ireland when he visited, but never thought I would be here myself speaking on my own behalf. However, I am delighted to be present to talk to members about Twitter. I propose to first answer the basic question as to what is Twitter. While many members use Twitter, some do not and it is important to lay the groundwork for the discussion. I then propose to discuss for a little bit why and how the vast majority of people use Twitter and then talk to members about our commitment to ensuring the experience of those who use Twitter is positive, enriching and safe, as well as the steps we take and resources we put in place to ensure this.

I will do this via a presentation because, as they say, a picture tells a thousand words. In essence, Twitter is a public communications platform. At its heart, Twitter effectively is built around small bursts of information, which we call tweets. Each one of those tweets can be no more than 140 characters long. It is similar to a text message and that was the genesis of the concept. In addition to text within these tweets, one can have photographs, videos, links to news stories and people can converse on Twitter and have an interaction between one other. The most important point is that users control their experience on the platform. They choose who to follow and what they wish to see. Moreover, they can indicate right at the outset if there are certain types of information they do not wish to see.

As for the company's position from a worldwide perspective, it now has 200 million active users worldwide. As members can see from the slide, the vast majority of that growth has taken place in the past two or three years. The company itself actually is quite small and literally is growing into the product and what the platform has become. Our headquarters is in San Francisco, while our international hub and EMEA headquarters is located here in Dublin and I am part of an ever-expanding team here. As I noted, it is evident that the real growth has taken place within the past three years. To put this in perspective, it took three years, two months and one day for Twitter to reach the one billionth tweet. We now turn over and see 1 billion tweets every two and a half days. This demonstrates the growth in the volume of information that is being shared on the platform. More than 60% of Twitter use is conducted on mobile telephones, while 70% of our users are outside of the United States and members can see the pockets of activity on the slide on display. Twitter increasingly is available in a range of languages and we are ever-expanding that agus táim fíor-bhródúil go bhfuil Gaeilge ann fresin.

There are many ways in which people use Twitter and a significant percentage of our users do not tweet at all. They use Twitter to listen to and see what other people are talking about in their own areas of interest. They are receiving, rather than producing information. I heard a lot of talk yesterday about the role Twitter now plays in politics and, clearly, it has been embraced at many levels of government worldwide. The slide on display shows a selection of some of the Heads of State and Government who now are on Twitter and who use it on a daily basis. Here in Ireland, the website merrionstreet.ie is very active in communicating messages and initiatives on the part of the Government, while the Opposition political parties are also highly active in this regard. It has proved to be a highly effective way of democratising government and humanising large institutions as well as enabling them to engage and converse with citizens on many different levels. In this context, none more so than the European Union, which traditionally citizens would have found to be inaccessible, but the Commission, the Council and the Parliament itself now actively use Twitter to reach out.

I will move on to why and how the vast majority of people use Twitter. Fundamentally they use it to connect to other people. They perceive it to be a fast and easy way to communicate with or simply listen to other people. Some connect to people they know while a great number of people decide to connect or listen to people they do not know but who they admire or in whom they are interested or about whose sphere of activity they wish to learn more. This goes right across the range of human endeavour. They may be interested in food, music, sport or subjects right across the vast areas of human interest. To give members some examples, some from here in Ireland include Rachel Allen, Maria Doyle Kennedy and, of course, as I must look after the home town, the Cork hurler Dónal Óg Cusack. Members can see the range and variety and the key point is if one is not interested in rugby and is only interested in hurling, one can just see information about hurling. One can choose one's experience and who it is from whom one wishes to hear on the platform.

Similarly, people come to Twitter for information, particularly information pertaining to real-time events. This has proved to be immensely valuable across a number of key areas. For example, police services are highly active on Twitter right across the world because they perceive it to be a means of communicating directly with citizens both in emergencies and to give information about incidents that have occurred in a particular area, such as, for example traffic updates. We also see amazing and innovative use of Twitter in education and health, as well as by non-governmental organisations. Again, it is easier to illustrate this point with examples. Obviously, I am particularly familiar with the Garda Síochána account, @GardaTraffic, which tweets information in and around major events to ensure people are aware of what is happening in a locality when something is happening. The account, @aaroadwatch, is a commercial equivalent and indicates to people what is going on in their areas on an hourly basis, minute by minute. The middle example on the slide, if members can see it, shows a history class in County Tipperary, where the teacher has chosen-----

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Ms McSweeney has the Chairman's attention now.

Tom Hayes (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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She always had it.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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He will be on Twitter before the night is out.

Ms Sinéad McSweeney:

It is absolutely fascinating. The teacher here has chosen to have that class tweet the Norman invasion or the Second World War to make it real to them, as well as to cover the subject on a platform with which they are familiar. I had an interesting conversation with Orla Tinsley recently about how cystic fibrosis sufferers cannot have the normal support group environment to which many other people have access because of the risk of infection. I was talking to her about a tweet I had seen from someone to the effect that Twitter provided for this person the equivalent of a support group. It was where she felt she could talk to and share her experiences, worries and issues with people, albeit in a safe environment because she was not at risk of infection. Similarly, a lot of mental health organisations use Twitter and other social media to access the groups with whom they are trying to raise awareness of mental health issues and to offer a helping hand and a listening ear. They have found it to be highly effective. Again, in respect of straightforward Government information, I have included on the slide examples from the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade and Fingal County Council, which has used the platform really effectively, particularly on foot of events such as flooding two years ago and so on. Again, it involved simply giving people the information they require when they need it, right at the moment. Finally, people come to Twitter to connect to and be part of events. It could be the run-up to the hurling and football championships in September, as well as every other game and moment that happens in between.

If we did not make it to London for the London Olympics we could have been not just part of the events themselves but also part of lots of the things that were happening to the athletes in the background. One could be on the red carpet at the Oscars.

Moving on to the more serious side, we have seen the role Twitter has played in the general election in 2011, the presidential election in America in 2012 and also in cases of crisis and emergency such as during the Japanese earthquake. People turned to Twitter when other communications channels were closed to people in Japan and outside who were anxious to hear about family and relatives. The Japanese Government has since put a policy in place to ensure that will be the norm should such events happen in future. Similarly, there was effective use by emergency services and political leaders on the east coast of America when Hurricane Sandy hit last year.

Our CEO, Mr. Dick Costello, another Corkman, often describes Twitter as a global town square. He refers to the town square of old where people came to do many different things, namely, chat, meet friends, find out what was happening in the locality, be part of town or village events and to trade. Equally, we all know that a minority of people visit town squares to pick pockets, pick a fight or make trouble. We recognise that on our platform there are people who come to it without the best of intentions who do not seek to share the amazing and profound experiences that are available and the opportunities and innovation that exist, but for their own reasons seek to do otherwise. We are acutely conscious of our responsibility to address that.

I wish to refer to a few slides that are screen shots of the resources we have for people. It would take too much time now but I am happy at any stage to sit down with committee members and physically take them through the help centre. Let us take a user who has experienced a difficulty on the platform and examine what is open to him or her in terms of the steps he or she can take. If the person is using a mobile telephone then some of the best resources are in his or her hand within his or her own profile. If one hits the cog on the left-hand side half-way down the profile one will see a help button. When one hits it one is taken to our help centre. There are a range of resources, tools and facilities for our users to deal with any issue that might arise for them on the platform. It ranges from the really basic stuff about learning how to use the platform through to technical difficulties such as lost passwords, but for today’s purposes I will focus on No. 3, which is reporting abuse or policy violations.

Within that category one will see the Twitter rules right up at the top. There are Twitter rules and limitations on the content which is permitted on the platform. The rules state clearly and in simple language what is and is not permitted on the platform. Content which breaches those rules can and does lead to permanent suspension from the platform. That includes, among a range of things, specific and direct threats of violence, abusive behaviour, posting private information and impersonation. As well as setting out the rules one will see underneath the heading “safety centre”. We go further and offer guidance and best practice to our users on how they can best observe and stay within the rules. We further support that with a range of articles, not just about Twitter use but about general online behaviour and how to mind oneself and navigate the Internet and the online space. We offer that in a range of different guises because we are conscious that there are different people using the platform and different people requiring the information. There are safety tips for parents, teachers and teenagers. I encourage members to take a look at some of the articles.

We offer further advice on online behaviour, including how to avoid conflict and how to deal with encountering someone who is talking about self-harm or suicide. We also deal with understanding the context of conversations that occur on the Internet. Sometimes it is necessary to move on from a conversation just as one would if one was walking in the street and someone let out a roar, one would keep going and ignore it. We deal with empathy in online relationships. I worked with someone in the Garda who said that paper does not smile. Sometimes texts, emails and tweets do not smile either and people can misunderstand what is being sent to them. It is important to take a moment to consider the context in which remarks are made. We offer all of that information. Much of the content is directed towards solving problems, avoiding them before they arise and empowering people to deal with and resolve issues for themselves because that is a lot of what we hear from young people, that they want the skills and tools to deal with some of the problems themselves. Unfortunately, however, some issues cannot be resolved in that way and they are not always prevented so further down the page – I have put it on a separate slide for visual impact – we provide information, issue by issue, on how to report to Twitter the violations of our rules. They include abusive behaviour, impersonation, somebody posting personal information or media violations which include offensive images or those which breach our rules.

Drilling down slightly into abusive behaviour, specifically, because that was much of the theme that was covered yesterday, again one will see the two-pronged approach – education and awareness-raising of what is good online behaviour, what we want to see on our platform, how people should avoid conflict and we also highlight the tools we make available to users to block users or to flag content. Second, we have the forms for reporting content to us. There is an example of one on the slide. There is a range of them. One can see that it is straightforward. It is an online form. People are taken through it step by step. The process is also populated with links back to advice and guidance about serious issues. In such cases we urge users to seek assistance offline and, if necessary, to contact law enforcement. I do not propose to take members through every single form now but I am available to sit down with members at any stage.

Before finishing I want to revisit what I have said. We have more than 200 million active users on the platform worldwide. The vast majority of those people have a positive, enriching and safe experience on our platform. That is what we wish for all our users. Therefore, we have rules and procedures. We also give users themselves the tools to make that happen. Having listened to yesterday’s debate, given my background, I respect and understand the responsibilities of members as lawmakers and also as representatives of their constituents and the concerns they express. We are acutely aware of our responsibilities that come with having a platform such as Twitter. We want to work with people such as Oireachtas Members and others in this space to raise awareness among users of their responsibilities.

I was taken yesterday and today by the emphasis of speakers, including the Chairman, on the immense and profound potential the platform offers to us. It is important that we do not lose sight of the opportunities social media have opened up for individuals, families and communities to enable them to get to know each other better, learn more about what interests them and to connect them to parts of the world of which they never dreamt. In some ways social media and Twitter in particular have not just made the world a smaller place they have made it a bigger place. We have gone beyond the world. Right now there is a man sitting in the stars tweeting to us on a daily basis. He tweets pictures, videos and music.

Last month he tweeted at us and told us how lovely we were and any one of us has the opportunity to tweet back and say go raibh maith agat.

I thank the committee for its attention and I am happy to take questions from members.

Tom Hayes (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I thank Ms McSweeney for that very detailed and comprehensive overview. Her summing up of Twitter is helpful for the committee and we will go straight into questions. I ask everyone to switch off their mobiles because anyone I see using one will not be asked to contribute. We do not want a repeat of yesterday's events. I mean this, I will be very harsh on those I see using a mobile telephone.

Michael Moynihan (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Ms McSweeney and congratulate her for her well presented overview of Twitter. What legal options are there when someone posts and abusive or incorrect tweet or one that causes someone to feel harassed? This is a worldwide phenomenon by now. What recourse to the law have those who have been defamed or had malicious statements made about them on Twitter? The Minister pointed out yesterday that there is a gap in legislation but is it possible now to plug that gap? I know some people might say a tweet would have the same standing as a defamatory remark in print or broadcast media, but being organised in different jurisdictions, what consequences exist for the small minority who use this for mischief?

Ms Sinéad McSweeney:

There is a straightforward process within Twitter for reporting content like that. Also, as well as ensuring content complies with our own rules, we ask users to comply with the rules of the country in which they operate. We have relationships with law enforcement agencies and have a legal team that can be served with legal process in much the same way as people vindicate their rights related to off-line behaviour. It is important for people to realise that what is illegal off-line is illegal on-line and where people feel the law has been broken, they must report it to us. Where it is a criminal offence, they must report it to law enforcement agencies and where there is a civil wrong, they must, as they would do off-line, seek legal advice and pursue those avenues. There is a straightforward procedure within our own platform reporting that content.

In terms of the specific issue the Minister mentioned yesterday, the Minister and the officials from the Office of the Attorney General are best placed to asses if there is a legislative gap. As far as we are concerned, we are constantly working to ensure our rules, procedures and tools are fit for purpose. We will continue to do that.

Michael Moynihan (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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If someone in the United States put up a false tweet that causes harm to a citizen of the Republic of Ireland, is there any recourse in the law because it now involves two jurisdictions? Is that not where the difficulties arise?

Ms Sinéad McSweeney:

They have recourse to the courts here.

Seán Kenny (Dublin North East, Labour)
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I welcome Ms McSweeney to the committee and thank Twitter for coming this morning. I agree that Twitter has amazing potential for improving communications, along with other social media. Fingal County Council makes good use of Twitter. It is within my constituency and it communicates information about events such as flooding or interruptions to the water supply and people find that very useful. Other bodies could use Twitter in the same way.

The issue that repeatedly arises is when someone misuses Twitter and makes remarks that are offensive or untrue about someone who then feels aggrieved. I accept there is a helpline and people can communicate with Twitter but what if someone wants to find out the source of the tweet? Can tweets be traced? If the person who is aggrieved cannot do it, can Twitter do it?

Ms Sinéad McSweeney:

Where content amounts to a criminal offence, law enforcement can request information on the account from Twitter. We publish details of the requests we receive from law enforcement agencies and governments on an annual basis.

The privacy of our users, however, is also very important to us and we enter a commitment with all users that we do not share their private information with third parties. We must balance our commitment to privacy of users with the issues mentioned by the Deputy. It is important, particularly in this space, that we strive to take a step back and ensure we put as much energy into preventing these occurrences on-line as we are to dealing with the minority of incidents that occur. As a company, in conjunction with many youth organisations and Internet safety organisations, we are anxious to push the debate into that space, particularly with young people. We take our children into the world at a young age, be it to a restaurant, to school or to visit relatives, and we expect a certain standard of behaviour from them. They learn that standard from us and we help instil values in them. As parents, we must bring those values into their behaviour in the on-line world and prevent and discourage people from making the offensive comments that were mentioned, and to realise the consequences of such comments.

Seán Kenny (Dublin North East, Labour)
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We raised law enforcement with the Minister yesterday and he replied that the courts are like the Ritz Hotel, the doors are open but not everyone can go in. It is difficult and takes a lot of resources for a person to secure redress. Should someone who feels aggrieved go to the gardaí and report it or is there a central unit they should contact? What is the procedure for someone who wants to make a report to the law enforcement agencies?

Ms Sinéad McSweeney:

Where a criminal offence has been committed, like anything else that happens to a citizen, of course that person should report it to the local Garda station.

Michael Colreavy (Sligo-North Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Ms McSweeney for her very clear presentation. I am very uncomfortable with this whole topic.

On the one hand, it raises the possibility of the Government interfering with freedom of speech and freedom of thought and placing unacceptable restrictions on what is an excellent facility for people to use. On the other, however, a couple of young people have died in my constituency and there is prima facieevidence to show that online abuse, albeit not on Twitter, was a strong contributory factor. If a Twitter user chooses the option to indicate that another user is posting offensive, if not necessarily illegal, content that is insidious and continuous, what action does this trigger in Twitter worldwide? Would it be feasible to have in place a protocol or procedure preventing me, for example, from calling myself Enda Kenny and tweeting messages in the Taoiseach's name?

Tom Hayes (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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That is as good an example as I have heard in a long time.

Ms Sinéad McSweeney:

I understand Deputy Colreavy's discomfort. One of the solutions to this problem is to have all the stakeholders work together to avoid a scenario where the type of legislative or Government-imposed restrictions the Deputy describes are required. We need to develop a better understanding of the tools and resources that are available outside of legislation and try to avoid circumstances where incidents escalate to the point of becoming a criminal offence.

It is interesting that the Deputy should ask what actions are triggered when one makes a complaint. We have found that young people also ask this question because they are anxious to have greater transparency about the process of making a complaint. Twitter is working on this issue. Young people expressed a concern that if they were to report someone who was sending abusive information or making offensive comments, this report could be sent to the individual about whom they are complaining. We need to introduce some transparency around this process and provide reassurance. When someone chooses to report offensive contact, which is, as the Deputy stated, insidious, persistent and abusive behaviour, such complaints are assessed by our trust and safety team against Twitter rules. Where someone has violated Twitter rules, he or she is suspended from the platform. This can and does happen to people who violate our rules.

The Deputy referred to protocol and procedures. In effect, he was insisting that people use their real names and raising the issue of anonymity on the platform. There is a flipside to the anonymity debate. We view anonymity as giving people who would not otherwise have a voice an opportunity to be part of discussions and debates and perhaps a world that is not generally open to them. As a platform founded on the principle of freedom of expression, the anonymity concept is very important to us. We have seen it used and it is of immense value to people around the world, be they dissident journalists working in areas of conflict, human rights workers or young people in particular at-risk groups. These are the reasons anonymity is important to Twitter as a platform. That said, the issue the Deputy raises is a serious one, although his example involving him masquerading as Enda Kenny may not be so serious. Some of the speech that can occur anonymously is a serious problem and I assure the Deputy that regardless of whether they are made anonymously, tweets must still conform to our rules. If anonymous tweets or accounts are reported to us and found to violate our rules, they will be suspended.

Noel Harrington (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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I welcome Ms McSweeney and thank her for her presentation. Twitter is a fantastic and widely used resource, whose impact on all spheres of life worldwide is difficult to measure. I estimate that 99.9% of it has been positive, empowering and enriching. The idea that we are even discussing interfering in the freedom to express one's thoughts and ideas does not sit comfortably. Twitter and social media are not the main issue because what one sees online is essentially what one sees off-line. In terms of what is legal and illegal, social media mirror life.

I concur with Ms McSweeney on the issue of anonymity. For hundreds of years, some of our greatest writers used pseudonyms and no one challenged that. We do not need to grapple with how to deal with what is illegal, whether it is data protection violations, harassment, abuse or whatever. These practices are clearly illegal. The issues is how to deal with them after they have been reported. Our biggest problem is access to the judicial system for those against whom a crime has perpetrated, whether online or off-line.

Ms McSweeney stated that where abuse is reported and a violation has been confirmed, a suspension takes place. I presume the account is suspended.

Ms Sinéad McSweeney:

Yes.

Noel Harrington (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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It is not possible to suspend the person behind the account.

Ms Sinéad McSweeney:

No.

Noel Harrington (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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I assume Ms McSweeney will have listened to or received a copy of the transcript of the Minister's presentation yesterday with respect to the law, specifically the 2007 Act as it pertains to harassment by telephone. The Minister identified an area where he believed there may be a difference or gap in the law in this regard. Does McSweeney have a view on the Minister's point that it may be possible to address this very narrow issue? In my view, it is not a gap but something extra in respect of a basic law on electronic transmission, data protection and so forth. Does Twitter have a view in this regard?

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome Ms McSweeney and thank her for her useful presentation. I declare an interest in that I am a user of Twitter. I find the service exceptionally useful and a fantastic advance in terms of an individual's capacity to self-publish, albeit using a restricted number of characters. It has changed the way in which many of us communicate, comment on and engage in public debate and discourse.

I am somewhat amused at the level of attention that is being given to bullying on the social media. I say this because bullying has always been a feature of life in every jurisdiction. One only needs to cast one's mind back to one's school days to recall how people were bullied. We were all bullied in some respect, whether on the school bus, in the school yard or elsewhere. It is not a new phenomenon. We now have unwarranted hype and panic because Twitter is a new medium. The vast majority of bullying is done face to face, with some of it done anonymously over the telephone. No one suggests we should haul in all the telephone companies to figure out how they will prevent someone from taking my telephone number and calling me from a call box in the centre of town. People also write anonymous letters to bully others.

If we are serious about bullying, we should be focusing on it rather than the channel by which the bully seeks to ply his or her trade. Twitter and Facebook are relatively upfront because one can see what is being said. There are times when some of the comments may be derogatory or defamatory, and the law in this regard has been outlined by the delegates. Yesterday, the Minister stated there is recourse to the law. Much of the commentary to date has been on the difficulty posed because much information is published outside the State. If information published outside the State is transmitted here, there is recourse to the Irish courts.

I wonder about the direction of the commentary. We need to begin to consider the management of children in school and to examine the education system. Twitter, of itself, is not the problem; it is not the bully. We must be careful not to limit, damage or inhibit in any way the growth of Twitter or other social media, or undermine their importance.

I fully accept the point made on anonymity, which is fundamental to social media. I can see how it has the potential to be abused by some and I accept that there are strong policies on how abuse might be curtailed.

Has Ms McSweeney any view on the capture of data? I accept that companies should retain the data for themselves and nobody else, and that it should not be shared. If somebody is found to have set up a false account or uses an anonymous name, does Twitter still require that person to provide data or information that would allow him or her to be identified? I refer to rare circumstances in which one is found to be very much in breach not only of Twitter's guidelines but also of the defamation laws, for example. Is there a fail-safe backup resource such that if the law enforcement agents ask that the identity of an individual with an anonymous account be made known, they can be facilitated, provided the account holder is breaking all the rules and is in serious breach of jurisdictional provisions or laws?

Ms Sinéad McSweeney:

Regarding Deputy Harrington's question on the gap in the law, I listened to the Minister yesterday and to the majority of the debate. The Minister stated there appears to be a gap in the law. As I said, he, his officials and the Office of the Attorney General are in the best position to make a judgment in that regard. My company is clear on its rules and what it requires of its users. It is clear on the procedures it has in place and on how it should try to educate and raise awareness among its users. We require users to observe the laws of their countries, wherever they are, because laws and standards vary from country to country.

With regard to the Irish legislation, we will await a response from the Minister and the Attorney General on whether the gap the Minister feels exists actually does exist.

Noel Harrington (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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The legislation on electronic telephony and texting mentions harassment and offence. If one seeks to be offended online, one can be offended very easily. I presume that trying to deal with harassment and offence when there are 200 million users and 1 billion tweets every 2.5 days is unworkable.

Ms Sinéad McSweeney:

Our approach is to educate people and advise users as to what is and is not acceptable on the platform. Our approach is also to highlight to users the impact of behaviour along the lines described and the real effect it can have on other individuals. It is a question of trying to prevent offensive behaviour and harassment. Where abusive behaviour violates our rules, there are consequences for users within the platform.

On Deputy Dooley's comments, I agree that bullying is as old as the world itself. What is being described is a form of bullying. In that regard, we actually take a more holistic approach to it. One will have seen articles on empathy, avoiding conflict and understanding the consequences of one's behaviour online. On the possibility of getting through to people regarding the consequences of and impact of the material they post, we work with other organisations. We participate in events such as Safer Internet Day to raise awareness of these kinds of issues and address bullying in an holistic fashion rather than focusing specifically on one platform.

With regard to capturing data, we do not require people to provide their real names at any stage of the process. We do not have a lot of information about people; it is a very public platform. Pretty much all the information we have is available. We deal with and address law enforcement requests as they arise.

Ann Phelan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Labour)
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Over recent days, it appears we have been trying to develop social media etiquette and to raise awareness among users so they will know that if they are going to harass someone or put up offensive material, there will be consequences. I hazard a guess that I am more likely to suffer from harassment in other social media than on Twitter. On Twitter, the user can control what is occurring because they can choose to follow individuals and who is following them. This puts a certain amount of control in the hands of the user.

Certain social media platforms are used for human experiences that Twitter is not necessarily used for. I am open to contradiction on this. I am less likely to suffer abuse on Twitter than on other social media platforms. Does Twitter operate a take-down policy? If so, how is it triggered? Does Ms McSweeney believe some sort of press council for social media would be a good idea? People who cannot afford to go to the courts could go to such a council.

John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I thank Ms McSweeney for her very good presentation and for explaining many points. She concentrated on the positive and enriching aspects of Twitter and mentioned the importance of safety. We are present to discuss the safe use of Twitter. It is a question of striking a balance between the safe use of the platform and allowing people to choose how they use it.

Another reason we are present is that the world has been playing catch-up legislatively and otherwise since social media became available. Since social media exploded onto the scene, is Twitter also playing catch-up with regard to its procedures and means of dealing with complaints and the removal of offensive material? Has Twitter modified its approach and fine-tuned it since it had to deal with the issue in question? Certainly, the rest of the world has.

Ms McSweeney said one may make a complaint. How quickly are complaints dealt with or responded to?

Regarding the bullying issue, which is a major worry, I would have to disagree with what Deputy Dooley said earlier in the sense that bullying has certainly always existed but the potential of the medium of Twitter for bullying is immense. As a former teacher I can say that bullying in a school yard or classroom was visible and detectable and it was possible to deal with it. The difficulty with cyberbullying is that it is often silent, invisible and does not stop at 4 p.m. when school finishes and how to deal with that is the issue.

Tom Hayes (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I call Deputy Patrick O'Donovan now.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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I thank Ms McSweeney for appearing before the committee today. Following on from yesterday's meeting, it is very clear from what the Minister has said, what was already known to this committee and what the company has confirmed today, that the biggest problem we have, in terms of people vindicating their good name, whether in the print or social media, is the inaccessibility of the court system in this country. That is where our basic problem lies. If something is printed in a newspaper about one or put up on Twitter, unless one has substantial amounts of money at one's disposal, one cannot go to the Four Courts. We can have all of the policies, practices and procedures in place that we want but it is not realistic to expect, for example, that on the back of a billion tweets, every account can be deleted. A more realistic approach would be to try to make our courts service more reflective of today's society. People need to have access to the courts and for me, that is the nub of this debate rather than whether we need to take a nanny-State approach.

I am reminded of an episode of "Father Ted", where two people are outside a cinema shouting, "Down with this sort of thing". I know this is a very serious issue but there is a temptation here to put the spotlight entirely on the wrong area. If people are trying to vindicate their good name in the face of something said about them in print, on the radio or in social media, the actual medium is not the problem but the difficulty of accessing the court system.

Does Twitter have a corporate responsibility fund or a social fund to raise awareness of these issues? Is there a voluntary code of conduct in place between Twitter and other companies and providers? Is there any engagement by Twitter with some of the stakeholders dealing with younger people?

I draw the committee's attention to an article published in last Monday's Irish Examiner , which quotes a spokesperson from the National Association of Principals and Deputy Principals as follows: "The social networks ought to have a dedicated liaison officer whose job it is to take calls from schools and parents and act promptly in deleting offensive posts". Does Ms McSweeney have any comment to make on that?

In general, in terms of where this committee is going with this issue, we should be talking to the Department of Justice and Equality, the Bar Council, the Law Society and others and finding out why it is so expensive to take a case in the Four Courts to clear one's name.

Tom Hayes (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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That is a good point but we outlined our criteria earlier on in this process and we know where we are going.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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We know now where we are going but for the future, we must consider this also. Regardless of whether something nasty is said about someone in a broadsheet newspaper, on radio or on a social medium, the biggest problem is that the courts in this country are the preserve of the rich.

Tom Hayes (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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That point can be made in the report that we send to the Minister at the end of our deliberations.

Ms Sinéad McSweeney:

Deputy Ann Phelan asked about our take-down policy. We have clear rules as to what is and is not permitted on the platform. There are limitations to the content that can be published. The publication of content which breaches our rules, including specific, direct threats of violence, abusive behaviour, posting somebody's private information and impersonation, leads to suspension. We have also developed a technology which allows us to block content in countries where the content may be illegal in that country but not elsewhere. So, for example, in Germany, certain types of Nazi speech is illegal. It might only be considered offensive elsewhere but because it is illegal in Germany it is blocked in Germany if reported to us and the user sees a greyed-out box. Therefore, the content is not just blocked but people know and understand why it is blocked. That is an important part of educating people about what is acceptable, unacceptable, legal and illegal.

In terms of the press council idea, I am not sure how something like that might work. Again, I would direct people to the resources that are already there, that all social media companies have actually put in place. I was struck by the debate both yesterday and this morning in terms of the work we must do to highlight some of the incredible resources that we have put time, energy and experience into developing. We definitely need to do some work on that.

Deputy O'Mahony asked about the extent to which we have found ourselves modifying our policies and procedures. We constantly modify them and look for feedback on them. We work with other organisations in the space and seek feedback from parent's groups, teachers, various safer internet centres around the world and modify our procedures accordingly. I spoke earlier about having more transparency around the way in which we deal with reports, for example. Members also asked about the timeline on reports. The reality is that it varies widely. If we get a report about an impersonation, for example, we must be very sure that the report is coming from the appropriate person and is not an effort by somebody else to take on that person's identity. In reply to the question, the response time depends on the nature of the report or complaint because there are certain verification steps which we need to go through.

Members spoke about bullying and the extent to which it may be silent online. There is an alternative view that in some ways, it should actually be more visible. It should actually be easier for young people to prove or illustrate to others that they are being bullied because they can capture it. It is there, online, for others to see. What we need to do - and this is something we are working on - is empower young people to break their silence and talk about what is happening to them. In some ways, the bullying should be far more visible and detectable but we must empower people and give them the skills to reach out when they have a problem. That leads me in to Deputy O'Donovan's question about corporate responsibility. We actually have a programme called Tweets for Good. On the recent Safer Internet Day, we facilitated safer internet messaging throughout the day on the platform, as if it was an advertisement on the platform. It was given a particular prominence and targeted at those who needed it most. We work with charities and voluntary organisations to enable them to use the platform in an effective way. We also work in a more informal way on these issues. Some of the more skilled marketing people on the team and myself have met with some of the mental health awareness organisations and young people's organisations in Ireland to talk about how they use Twitter and how they can use it even more effectively to communicate their message. We are doing quite a lot of work in that area.

Deputy O'Donovan also made reference to the need for a dedicated liaison officer for schools and parents.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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It was raised in an article in the Irish Examiner.

Ms Sinéad McSweeney:

Sorry, the issue was raised in a newspaper article. Again, I would point out that the online resource is available 24 hours a day. Resources are there all of the time for people to access. Interestingly, the hotline in the Safer Internet Centre in the UK takes calls from schools. The staff at that centre have informed and educated themselves as to what all of the individual platforms have available in terms of advice and reporting.

They have informed and educated themselves on what all the individual platforms have available on advice and reporting. They are almost like a gateway or filter. They will ask schools what they have tried and whether they are aware of particular options. They operate by providing a range of advice. We have a contact point with them and can deal with issues which may be slightly out of the ordinary.

Ann Phelan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Labour)
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The only reason I mentioned a press council-type body for social media was because of a point made earlier. Even if we had the money to go to court, there would be a very long wait. The work of this committee will mean far more complaints will be made, because people have not been complaining up to now.

Ms Sinéad McSweeney:

Perhaps the model I just described and the UK Safer Internet Centre are a stopgap.

Tom Hayes (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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As committee members have finished asking questions, I will now move to non-committee numbers.

Fiach MacConghail (Independent)
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I apologise for not being here at the beginning of the presentation. I also apologise if some of my comments and questions are repetitive. An important lesson I have learned since starting to use Twitter three years ago is to have my own set of rules and engagement with Twitter. It can be a compulsive form of communication. As the Minister, Deputy Rabbitte, said yesterday, it is about emerging best practice. As a parent, one of the challenges is to remind teenagers that Twitter is not like texting. Certain teenagers use Twitter as if it were a private conversation. The public-private issue is a challenge for parents and we must consider it.

We must also deal with the difference between criticism and abuse. Dealing with criticism on Twitter can be tough, and something may appear abusive if one reads it at 10 p.m. but the following morning it may not seem as bad. As a user, one must develop self-regulation and not answer quickly or ignore something. I have received regular systematic tweet after tweet. What does one do? Does one ignore it? If one is seen as a public figure, does one block it? What does "blocking" mean? I apologise if this has already been explained when I was not here, but I would like the witness to explain the process of blocking. If I block someone, does the person I have blocked know this? Does it allow the person to come back in a different way? If teenagers or young people using Twitter decide to block somebody, does the person who has been blocked know this? I would like the witness to explain the sequence. One of my rules is to ignore being bombarded by someone with no followers. Does the witness have any statistics on blocking Irish Twitter accounts on a daily or weekly basis?

Understanding anonymity is a challenge for the committee. As Ms McSweeney stated, anonymity in itself can provide an opportunity for people to be more expressive or more honest. The challenge is with regard to anonymity and authenticity. Anonymity has been described as an enabling tool to enter dialogue and debate, but the essence and attraction to Twitter is authentic voices, diverse opinions and a safe place to dialogue. There is a moment at which anonymity becomes abusive, because one cannot engage on an ongoing basis on Twitter with somebody who is completely anonymous.

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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I thank Ms McSweeney for a very helpful presentation. She stated that Twitter should be positive, enriching and safe and I agree with this. She showed how young people use Twitter to learn, and mentioned a history class in Tipperary. It is good to hear these examples. How young are Twitter users? We tend to think of Twitter as more for older users and Facebook more for teens. Does Ms McSweeney have data on the Irish population?

I wish to discuss corporate social responsibility. Based on what I hear from teachers and parents, they would appreciate a helpline in Ireland. This helpline might be funded by all of the social media and not just by Twitter. When parents, teachers and counsellors, including mental health counsellors, have a concern they want a quick response but after e-mailing, they often find help is not forthcoming from the social media provider. Ms McSweeney mentioned a hotline in the UK. Who funds this hotline? Would Twitter consider being a part funder of a hotline here?

We all want the content being posted to be safe for young people and children. Deputy Colreavy spoke about the damage that is likely and may have been done to some young people. We cannot dismiss this or say it did not happen. Does Twitter moderate content or does it completely rely on self-reporting? I understand almost 1 billion tweets are sent within a three-day period. With regard to Twitter completely relying on self-reporting, not everybody is as enabled or as aware as Ms McSweeney explained to us today. What can Twitter do to educate people above and beyond the helpline it already provides?

How quickly does Twitter intervene when inappropriate content is brought to its attention? Does Twitter spot it? How much interaction has Twitter had with the Garda on reports of abuse on Twitter?

Mary Mitchell O'Connor (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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I thank Ms McSweeney for her presentation. I also believe in the freedom of speech and I heard her state one can always press the button to unfollow somebody. Ms McSweeney stated she is a mother. What age would she allow a child to go on Twitter? What advice would she give to parents who allow their children on Twitter? These are personal questions and if Ms McSweeney does not want to answer them, I will accept it. I am a former school principal and I am concerned about cyberbullying of children. Ms McSweeney stated there are consequences if people violate rules. When does Twitter know this? Does it allow the same information to be published for children? Are the rules different for adults and children? How does Twitter know what is going on and who is behind Twitter accounts?

Ms McSweeney said Twitter holds the IP address. Did she ever consider, when children are signing up, requiring parents also to sign an acceptance form stating that they have read the guidelines? Where do parents come into it? Much of what happens is the responsibility of parents and I fundamentally disagree with my colleague, Deputy Dooley's comment that cyberbullying is not as widespread now as it was in the past. It is widespread now. As the Senator said, it is important to remember that Twitter is very unlike text messaging as it is public.

Ms Sinéad McSweeney:

I will start with the initial question about blocking. If a user blocks another user, the person who has been blocked will not be able to add that user's account to any lists they might have, will not be able to follow the user, will not see the user's profile in their timeline and the user will not see the blocked user's tweets or material. That is blocking. With regard to statistics, I do not have a statistical breakdown on blocking.

Fiach MacConghail (Independent)
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The witness will be able to find them. Are they available within Twitter?

Ms Sinéad McSweeney:

I will have to check that.

Fiach MacConghail (Independent)
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I am not trying to trick the witness. If the committee asked for statistics, could Twitter could let us know on average how many would be blocked in a day or a week?

Ms Sinéad McSweeney:

I will have to check that. People block and unblock people so it is questionable how informative that information would be.

Fiach MacConghail (Independent)
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Is it correct that if one is blocked, the only way to follow that person again is to become anonymous or to use another handle?

Ms Sinéad McSweeney:

One would have to open another account.

The point the Senator made about the public nature of the platform is very important. We are very clear that it is a public platform; that is its main attraction. We signal that very clearly, and it is repeated again in the safety tips for teens and the safety tips for parents. It is to encourage people to be cognisant of the fact that it is a public platform, to think twice about what they share on the platform and to give more consideration to the way in which they use it. The points the Senator made about context are also important. Again, we work to raise awareness of this to ensure that people use the tools that are available, such as block and ignore, and understand that one can make the situation more uncomfortable or worse if one continues to engage.

I spoke about anonymity earlier. I understand the serious concerns people are raising about anonymity, but for us there is a fundamental value in anonymity that is very important to Twitter as a platform. We have gone over much of that ground.

There were two questions about children and how young the users are. In its earliest incarnation Twitter was seen as a news and information service. Historically, there have been far fewer children on the Twitter platform than on others. Our terms of service provide that users must be over 13 years old. If we find that users are not over 13 years old, those accounts are closed by us.

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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What ID or proof does Twitter have?

Ms Sinéad McSweeney:

We do not take age. If parents find that their children who are under 13 are on Twitter, we ask them to contact us by e-mail to privacy@twitter.com, because this is an issue about young people sharing private information online, and to notify us immediately.

Tom Hayes (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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That is a very important point, but do people know that? What efforts are you making to make the public or parents aware of that?

Ms Sinéad McSweeney:

Again, this moves on to the corporate social responsibility-----

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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What about a public helpline?

Ms Sinéad McSweeney:

The hotline I mentioned in the UK is a public helpline and it is well known and promoted in the education network there.

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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Who funds it?

Ms Sinéad McSweeney:

It is part of the national Safer Internet Centre. There are three prongs to that. There is the government prong, the hot-line and it is within Childnet so there is a range of funding from government and other sources.

In terms of raising awareness, whether one is in politics or education and one is trying to introduce any type of public information, one can never share and publicise the information enough. We use our platform to publicise it. We also use conferences, seminars and our contacts with other organisations to constantly publicise the help, resources and advice that are available.

Deputy Mitchell O'Connor spoke about advice to parents. I have answered the question about the age at which a child is allowed on Twitter. The child must be over 13 years old. In addition, when they are signing up it is possible for any Twitter user to indicate that they do not wish to see certain material. There is a box one can tick to say one does not wish to see sensitive content. My advice to parents is to recognise that they have to know and understand the tools and channels that their children are using. We, as parents, do not have the luxury of saying: "It is too much, the whole thing has moved away too fast so I give up".

My son is four years old. He is already probably better on the iPhone and iPad than I am. I have the advantage of working for a social media company, so I know and understand it. However, I have to think of the future and wonder how the world will be when he reaches 13, 14 and 15 years of age. Last week, I signed up for an online coding course so that when he starts talking Java and HTML to me in a couple of years, I will know and understand what he is talking about. Hopefully, I will also be able to look over his shoulder and figure out whether he is designing a computer game or trying to hack into PULSE. As parents, we must-----

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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Stay in touch with this.

Ms Sinéad McSweeney:

Yes, we must stay in touch with it. We owe it to our children. We also owe it to them to keep the channels of communication open with them so that when something does not feel right they will tell us, just as we advise them to do in respect of the off-line world.

There are some really interesting resources available, such as technology contracts with children. They start with, for example, "I promise I will not take away your mobile phone if you tell me that somebody is bullying you. I will listen to you and understand." Part of the issue is the fact that teenagers and children are not communicating with parents because they think the very resource they rely on to stay in touch with the world will be taken away from them. Parents can take basic steps such as that.

Tom Hayes (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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This has been an excellent session.

Michael Colreavy (Sligo-North Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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Chairman, I have a very brief question.

Tom Hayes (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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We are on a time scale and other people are waiting to appear before the committee. It must be very brief.

Michael Colreavy (Sligo-North Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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I understand that the French Minister for Women's Rights has asked Twitter to monitor certain content, for example, gender stereotyping. How has Twitter responded to that?

Ms Sinéad McSweeney:

The Deputy is referring to a meeting we had recently with the Minister, Najat Vallaud-Belkacem, in France. She raised concerns with us about illegal content on the platform, such as anti-Semitic content. We explained to her some of the concepts I mentioned earlier to the committee, such as the facility whereby we can withhold illegal content. We also spoke to her about our corporate responsibility, our programmes around promoted tweets for good and highlighting information and resources that are available to people who might feel uncomfortable with some of the content on the platform.

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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I did not get an answer to one question. Does Twitter moderate content at all or is it relying on self-reporting? Has Twitter received many reports from the Garda regarding abusive content?

That is the final question.

Ms Sinéad McSweeney:

We do not moderate content. As I said, we see 1 billion tweets every two and a half days. It would be neither physically nor technically possible for us to do so and that is why we rely on individuals reporting the content to us.

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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What about the gardaí?

Ms Sinéad McSweeney:

I do not personally deal with the law enforcement liaison. Obviously, because I spent five years working for them, I meet gardaí everyday and have conversations with them but, as a company, I would have to check that for the Senator. One of the issues here is that Twitter is such a public platform that there are not as many instances in which one would think law enforcement would require direct contact with us.

Tom Hayes (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I thank Ms McSweeney for giving us such a wonderful insight into her background and work across the social media area. It will go a long way towards helping us to draw up this report. I ask Ms McSweeney to keep in contact with us because there are certainly some issues on which we will need clarification as we draw up the report. Again, I thank Ms McSweeney as this was a wonderful session.

Tom Hayes (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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On behalf of the committee, I welcome from Facebook, Mr. Simon Milner, policy director - UK and Ireland, and Ms Patricia Cartes, manager - public policy, who are here to advise us on the safeguards currently employed by Facebook for users and non-users of the platform. I invite Mr. Milner to make his presentation.

Mr. Simon Milner:

I thank the Chairman. It is a pleasure to be here. I am the policy director for Facebook in Ireland and the UK and my colleague, Ms Patricia Cartes, leads for us on safety throughout the region of Europe, the Middle East and Africa and she will take the members through a presentation around how we handle safety at Facebook.

I thought it might be useful to give members an introduction to Facebook. Facebook was created nine years ago with a mission, which remains as it is today, to make the world more open and connected. In practice, that means we provide a platform and a service via which people can connect with their friends, wherever they are in the world, for free and they can share with them what they are doing, where they are, photographs, passions and political interests. They can do all kinds of connecting with people they know and, indeed, people they do not know in that they may have a particular interest in certain public figures, bands or artists. We do this on a massive scale.

Facebook now has 1 billion active users, that is, 1 billion accounts. We do not allow people to have more than one account. Approximately, 5 billion actions are taken on Facebook every day. That can be a range of actions from liking something to posting to commenting on a post to posting a link. Most of that activity is entirely wholesome, innocuous and life-enhancing in many ways but some of it is not wholesome and some of it may be offensive and may actually be harmful. One of the things Ms Cartes will take members through is what happens in such situations, what tools we provide and how we handle those kinds of issues.

I also thought it would be worthwhile giving a sense of how Facebook happens. At the heart of Facebook is the Internet. That is how people use it; it is an Internet-based service and one has to be online in order to use Facebook. We are a technology company. That is at the heart of everything we do and we are always looking for innovations in the use of technology to enhance the experience of our users and that includes how we keep people safe, which Ms Cartes will explain shortly.

We are a company of around 5,000 people. At the moment, we have 400 in Dublin rising to 500 over the course of this year. Members may have seen a recent announcement about that. A good number of those people are involved in helping our users to use the platform effectively and to keep themselves safe. We also have standards; this is not a free for all. We have standards about what is and what is not acceptable on Facebook.

One thing I recognise - we find this in any audience we talk to about Facebook - is that there are varying levels of understanding about the platform, often based on how much people actually use it themselves. We have tried to minimise the jargon in this presentation and in what we say but if there are any issues which members think they do not quite understand and if we are using jargon that is not familiar to them, they should ensure they ask us because we want to ensure we illuminate their consideration of these important issues.

Ms Patricia Cartes:

I joined Facebook a number of years ago when we set out to open our European headquarters in Dublin. Over the past four years, I have had the opportunity to work on a number of teams looking after safety from the user support team to public policy and I have had the privilege to develop a unique insight into our safety technology which we have deployed over time but also our processes to keep our users safe on the platform. In my role, I travel across the region to ensure that I engage with policy-makers, safety organisations and members of the public to explain our safety story. When I do that, I focus on four pillars we have when it comes to safety.

I will go through the presentation on the screen if I can get it to work.

Mr. Simon Milner:

Honestly, we are a technology company.

Michael Colreavy (Sligo-North Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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We have a hard copy anyway.

Mr. Simon Milner:

The members have a hard copy but we do not.

Tom Hayes (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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We will be suspending the meeting for a vote in the Dáil. That will be signalled to the witnesses.

Ms Patricia Cartes:

When it comes to Facebook safety, we have a four-tier approach. We have policies, which are the rules of engagement on the site; processes, which are the mechanisms available to the public for them to reach out to us; people supporting the community; and partnerships in place. We will speak in-depth about these areas as we move along with the presentation.

I will begin with our policies. Unlike other platforms, we have a real name policy that we enforce on our site. We take this very seriously and when one interacts on Facebook, one is doing so as an extension of oneself in the online sphere. It is important that a person does this with a real name, and we have found that over time people are more likely to be responsible when they engage with their real identity, as they are accountable for their actions.

We also have zero tolerance of abuse, so there are limits to freedom of speech, as mentioned by Mr. Milner. We want users to interact freely and speak about matters of public importance but there are boundaries. A person cannot attack a private individual or target him or her in any way. We will remove any abusive behaviour directed at private individuals. We draw the line in the difference between harm and offence, and it is important to make that distinction. With over 1 billion users, there are many different cultures interacting and many different points of view. We want to enable conversation and not censor content but we also need to protect users. We do this by analysing context.

When somebody reports content to us, it is important that we understand the full picture being brought to our attention. In order to do this, we rely on community reports. People report to us through the help centre - there is a screen grab of this in the documentation - and also through the "report" buttons placed throughout the site. We want to empower users to bring examples of abuse to our attention, and we do this by providing very thorough information on our help centre. That deals with very simple matters such as how to put a photo on Facebook to very complex matters like how to request removal of an image that is violating a person's rights. People can also click on a "report" button and specify what type of abuse is taking place on the platform. That enables us to remove specific pieces of content rather than full profiles; we can imagine that a person may cross the line one day but most of the time is responsible, and we can take action against the content that has crossed the line, teaching the individual that he or she should not engage in an irresponsible manner.

We have special privacy protection for our youngest users. We understand that minors have not had the time we have had to learn how to engage safely in the world and it is our duty to ensure we protect them. In order to do so we have implemented special privacy protection. For example, minors cannot be found through public search engines in name searches. They also have a maximum audience of "friends of friends". This means that when they choose to share something on the platform, the maximum audience of people who will be able to see the content is "friends of friends". Every time we develop a new feature, we have minors in mind, so there will always be special privacy protection built into the product.

Tom Hayes (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Before the witnesses move on with the presentation, we will suspend the meeting so Members can vote and return immediately. It will be less than ten minutes. I apologise for the interruption.

Tom Hayes (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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There is a lot of pressures on Members this morning.

Ms Patricia Cartes:

As I was saying, the way in which we provide support is through our user operations scheme which is based in four locations across the world. This enables us to provide 24-7 coverage. The centre that would be most relevant to Members is our Dublin office in which we have representatives from more than 25 countries, supporting 23 languages. This means that if a person in, say, France, has an issue and writes in French, a French specialist will respond to the queries. We investigate reports manually when we receive them from the community but we also build smart tools to automate our processes and support our robust community. If somebody decides to create a fake account, impersonating somebody like Ronan O'Gara who is a well-known public figure in Ireland, our Irish specialists will be able to work with our systems to block those keywords and, therefore, prevent the account creating any imposters.

We rely on the community to bring abuse to our attention, although we are proactive towards the more sensitive issues such as child protection or tourism. One thing we realised early on was that in the outlying world when one faces an issue one can talk to people in the community and share the background of the case. As there was not a similar site on Facebook we decided to create a channel specifically for this purpose. Now when one faces abuse on Facebook, whether it violates the Facebook standards or not, one is prompted to contact somebody in the community or the person who has uploaded the content and ask them to remove the content or ask for advice from the community. Therefore, if I am a student and getting bullied in the classroom, I can talk to my teacher through the social reporting mechanism - the teacher may or may not be my friend on Facebook - and will be able to enter their e-mail address within this system and this person will have the background of the case and will be able to provide advice. We also give the person access to our safety centre which contains much information on how to deal with abuse in order that they can make an informed decision before providing one with advice. This has enabled people to solve situations face to face and, in turn, has contributed to the education of the community. We speak many times about bullying. We see cases where bullying is not taking place but it is simply somebody not understanding the rules of engagement or not behaving responsibly. I could be a responsible user and upload a photograph of Mr. Simon Milner today that he may not like and he may get offended by that photograph. He is entitled to bring that to my attention in order that I can remove it or bring it to the attention of those who know us and eventually to Facebook if he wants to find a permanent solution.

When people report content to us we find that transparency is a very important element, so we let them know what has happened to their reports through a tool called the support dashboard. The support dashboard lives within one's account and one is notified when one submits a report of abuse to Facebook and also when we have looked into it. At all stages we tell one how long it will take for us to review the content and what action we have taken. Furthermore, we also tell one the policies of the case one has brought to our attention. Abuse comes in many forms, from spam campaigns to privacy violations to bullying. When one provides us with a report of a situation that is unpleasant we will look into the specific type of abuse and inform one of our policies with regard to that abuse. At all stages our policies are public and can be visited online by going to Facebook.com/communitystandards. We provide users with education throughout the product so that they understand at all stages to what rules we are holding their behaviour accountable.

Finally, I want to highlight our partnerships. Safety is taking part in this conversation. We are responsible as the providers of the platform but it is important that we take into account the feedback provided to us by members of our global safety advice reward which comprise five leading organisations which are experts in different fields from child protection to domestic violence. These organisations have privileged access to our platform and give us advice before we launch any features. Based on that feedback we will modify our settings to make sure the community can remain safe.

We have a number of local partnerships in Ireland. We work with the safer Internet centre, Webwise and we have an InHope node. During the previous session the committee mentioned the UK Safer Internet Centre which is funded by the European Commission under the safer Internet programme. We work on an ongoing basis with all of the safer Internet centres across Europe and, more specifically, in Ireland, with Webwise and ISPAI of which we are a member. We provide these organisations with a direct communication talk or policy case work through which they can bring to our attention cases they have received in their hotline so that we can review the case, facilitate a solution but also, if necessary, modify our policies and processes when we find gaps in our platform. We are by no means perfect. This is an ongoing conversation we have with all stakeholders.

I wish to draw the attention of the committee to our partner Samaritans, which enables us to provide people who are feeling suicidal, or friends of people who are feeling suicidal, with specialised support. Therefore, if one notices that somebody within one's environment is feeling sad or is having suicidal thoughts, and if one reports it to Facebook we will contact one and the person at risk and share the Samaritans' contact details in order that one can get further support. As with any reports submitted to us, they are confidential. At that stage, the person who has reported you will be shown to you, if you have been reported and the other way around. It is important to note that our blocking features enable one to prevent interaction with somebody, if one is feeling harassed. Again, it is important that we empower users to protect themselves, aside from the features that we have designed. One of those features is the blocking mechanism which prevents interaction both ways, both from the person who has been blocked and the person who is taking the action.

This is a very brief presentation on our safety features. We have tried our best to condense all the material. I invite the committee to visit our Dublin offices. The safety team and I would love to host the committee in the office and walk it through some of the procedures in more depth so that it can understand how seriously we take the protection of our users.

Tom Hayes (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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On that point, I think we should do that before we finish the report. It is important and would be a great day's work to visit the offices. We will pencil in that offer and will most certainly take it up.

Michael Colreavy (Sligo-North Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the representatives from Facebook for appearing before the committee. Its approach differs from that of the previous witnesses in that it has a real identity rule. Can I have a little more detail on how that is enforced? Does Facebook seek telephone numbers or verification that the person is who he says he is. Nearly all Deputies and Senators have a Facebook page. Is there any way of grouping those together in order that people know they are dealing with a Deputy or Senator and not somebody who is purporting to be a Deputy or Senator on the day? Can the representatives talk us through the process? How long does it take to respond to a complaint from a user?

In one of the slides I saw a reference to 13 hours. Was that 13 hours since the message was sent? Is their a target turnaround time to respond to complaints or queries? Can the witness give the committee an idea of the number of pages or accounts that have been shut down in the past year in Ireland?

Mr. Simon Milner:

As she has clearly demonstrated, Ms Patricia Cartes is the expert on these issues. It worth saying, before she answers those questions in detail, that the real identity principle goes right across the site. It is really about people's profiles, that is about users. When somebody creates a page, that can be about an organisation, a passion he or she has, a job one has heard, it can be about all kinds of things. They are different. It is worth understanding the nature of a page versus a profile. There is no such thing as an inauthentic page. There is such thing as an inauthentic profile. I expect many of the Deputies and Senators have pages and that is a rather different entity. I will allow Ms Patricia Cartes to respond to those questions and I hope that will help the committee understands how it works on Facebook.

Ms Patricia Cartes:

I thank the Deputy for asking this question. Real identity is very important to us and I am glad to have the opportunity to explain it. Facebook is based on one connecting to people who matter to one. Therefore, when one creates an account with one's real name, one will be approving a friendship request from people one knows. In a way this helps to regulate the community because people will be reporting, others that they think are impersonating their friends but also if they do not know somebody they can mark that person as unknown to them, at the point at which they receive the friend request. In a way this is self-regulated. The community will bring to our attention fake accounts. We also have a number of mechanisms to detect fake accounts and we have a number of classifiers, automated mechanisms to detect them and these are quite powerful. Also we will examine factors such as one's date of birth, all of which is automated, changes in date of birth and changes of name. One cannot modify one's name more than a certain number of times. One can use nicknames but one will have to use one's real name. If we see that one is modifying one's name after one reaches the threshold, it is our user operations team who will approve any further changes. That in turn enables us to locate fake accounts. All in all, we have proactive and reactive measures to verify the authenticity of accounts.

On the issue of turnaround times for reports, we strive to prove a 24-hour to 48-hour turnaround time. However, the turnaround time varies from type of abuse to type of abuse. We also prioritise issues depending on what is happening in the real world. If we take the example of the London riots which was put up here yesterday, our platform was not used for the co-ordination of violence because we modify our supports to prioritise any related reports. In turn, when the community realised that we were providing timely supports and turning around the reports very fast, they started co-ordinating the clean-up operations rather than the violence. We were looking to what was happening in one country and we were also looking to who reported this. If one is a minor and reports a piece of content to Facebook we will prioritise that more highly than any other report, which means that minors will find a shorter response time when they submit content to us.

How many profiles have we removed? It is important to note that over time we have modified the way in which we proceed. One will hear many bullying experts speak about what measures have to be taken, whether it is a punitive measure or a restorative measure. We believe that trying to bring users into compliance in our platform is a very effective mechanism. If one is bullying somebody or uploading content that is inappropriate we have the ability to restrict some of one's features. If one is uploading photographs that violate the Facebook terms, we can remove one's ability to upload photographs for a certain amount of time. One will be prompted to read our community standards before one can fully engage with the site again. Of course, if the violation is very severe, we will seek to fully remove the account. What we found over time is that when people are taught in this way, through what we call these educational checkpoints, they are likely to react well to the education and modify their behaviour to be back into compliance.

The number of accounts we remove might not be as informative as one would want them to be. It is much more interesting to see how many users we bring back into compliance over time.

Mr. Simon Milner:

In some ways it is an illustration of how we learn from the real world. I am a parent of three children. I know that when children make mistakes and engage in behaviour that is not appropriate one does not make them vanish from the family; one takes them in hand and helps them understand the consequences of their actions and reintegrates them into normal life. That is the best way to learn. That is the approach we emulate on Facebook.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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I thank the representatives from Facebook for appearing before the committee. I will put the same questions as I put to the representatives from Twitter. It concerns Monday's edition of the Irish Examiner where a representative of the National Association of Principals and Deputy Principals suggested that the social networks ought to have a dedicated liaison officer whose job would be to take calls from schools and parents and to act promptly in deleting offensive post. I would appreciate a comment based on our own knowledge that cohort of younger people would be more inclined towards Facebook than other social media.

In respect of Facebook's corporate and social responsibility, I will put the same question that I put to Twitter, does it give financial assistance to umbrella organisations to promote better and more appropriate use of the site? The suggestion to visit the headquarters in Dublin is a good idea. Apart from anything else, it is an important employer in Dublin and that needs to be acknowledged by the committee.

Tom Hayes (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Exactly and recognised by the committee.

Ann Phelan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Labour)
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I thank the witnesses for the presentation. In our deliberations we are trying to drill down into the social media phenomenon. As I said to Ms Sinéad McSweeney, the representative from Twitter, this in itself is a raising of awareness. I think the public is sometimes not aware that when on social media the same rules apply as in the print media. When I look at Facebook, I am amazed at what people post on Facebook about their private lives, or even regarding abuse, including what they let the whole world know about themselves. I welcome the opportunity to visit the premises in Dublin. Like others I am uncomfortable with social media but I am trying to steer to the middle of the road without seeking to manage what users are trying to do. We are trying to defend the right of Internet users outside the EU context as mentioned earlier about the Arab Spring and how social media has played a huge part in the democratisation of some parts of the world. I am very aware of that. I do not see our role as trying to close down any sites-----

Tom Hayes (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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It never was.

Ann Phelan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Labour)
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-----but to try to raise awareness and steer people in the right direction in respect of their rights on social media, if they are suffering from abuse.

Tom Hayes (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputy for making that point. It was important that it be made.

Mr. Simon Milner:

Ms Patricia Cartes will speak about the hotline issue raised by Deputy O'Donovan. I will speak about what we do to provide support to organisations and will pick up on the points about the extent to which we can raise awareness of privacy and safety issues.

Ms Patricia Cartes:

On the dedicated hotline, we found that a number of organisations do this work much better than we could do it. One has to think of the scheme under which we operate. We have 1 billion users across many countries. In regard to safety, it is engaging for the whole of Europe.

It would be quite difficult for me to be engaging in schools. However, we have done a number of events in Ireland, for instance, tonight's event with the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, Deputy Fitzgerald, in one of the schools in Clondalkin. We did one in Lucan too. We have been engaging with several groups in Ireland over the past few weeks because we understand that this is a very serious matter that has stricken Ireland quite heavily over the past few months. We are not opposed to working in this manner through organisations that can help us reach an audience that we normally would not, for reasons of scale.

Also, as I mentioned earlier, we have a number of local partnerships. Much has been said today about the hotline that is being run in Ireland by ISPAI, hotline.ie. We work a lot with them and also with Webwise, which is an awareness centre providing the education sector with resources. We will continue to support both Webwise and hotline.ie, and any other partner, in the ways in which we can through resources, sometimes through funding and through working together on the feedback with which they provide us when we launch new features, etc., but we must bear in mind the massive scale at which we operate. Engaging in schools directly is probably not a good use of our time or the time of the schools. However, reaching them through these partners that we have in place is a much more significant way of engaging.

Mr. Simon Milner:

Picking up on that, effectively, as Ms Cartes explained, we do support organisations, sometimes financially. Where there is an alignment of interests around a particular campaign, we will provide financial support to those organisations. We are a member of different organisations, including ISPAI, where we, along with other companies in Ireland, pay our subscription, and that contributes to the work of the hotline. We have similar relationships with safety organisations across the world, including elsewhere in Europe. It is something that we do. It is always about alignment and finding organisations where, by working together, one can have more impact for people in those particular countries.

I sympathise with Deputy Ann Phelan's concerns about how much of people's lives they put online and how much they share. Certainly, sometimes one sees things and one thinks, "Did you really mean to share that?" However, I often come across people who are my age who tell me there are two reasons they do not use Facebook. One is because everything they do will be online and the other is that everybody will be able to see it. Neither is true. It is up to you as to what you share. If you want to share where you are today, if you want to check-in to a particular location, you can choose to do it. It is up to you as to how much of your information you want to share. Then one can also control the audience for that. You can do it, not only on your account generally but on every specific piece of content that you post on Facebook. You can decide who can see it. You can even decide just to keep it to yourself and keep it almost as a running diary of what you have been up to over the course of the week, and nobody else can see it but you.

One of the things that we want to do - this hearing is a fantastic further opportunity to do that - is to let people know that the information is all there on the site. We provide many resources. When people sign up, there is a good deal of information that helps them understand that. As with most matters, and we learn this from experience, one learns by doing. When I talk to people, I say, "Have you used this service? Have you tried it? Have you used these different features?" Once people get the hang of it, they realise it is very easy to control the visibility of what one is doing on Facebook.

Noel Harrington (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. Milner and Ms Cartes. The presentations we heard, previously and from Facebook, highlight the differences between the two platforms. I hope they will excuse me for saying this, but I have heard it a few times and they have probably heard it hundreds of times. When talking about the difference between Facebook and Twitter, somebody mentioned that Facebook makes strangers out of friends and Twitter makes friends out of complete strangers. Obviously, it is over generalising, but to take the analogy of going to a kind of town square and meeting people, some of them would be anonymous on Twitter and on Facebook it is more like going into their classroom, into their clubhouse or into where they socialise. Perhaps I am generalising far too much. I am interested in the approach Facebook has taken. For example, anonymity is not an option on Facebook and as a result, one gets different content.

I am also interested in the partnership approach that Facebook has taken with some of the agencies that do significant work in handling abuse and offence, and dangers. Does Facebook adopt a partnership approach with the office for Internet safety through the Department of Justice and Equality? Mr. Milner might be able to flesh that out, if there is a relationship with that office.

One of the matters brought to my attention was a sublime difficulty with which some deal. Where someone may post something, it is not that they would attract negative comment but that they are not attracting enough likes, while a friend in the same classroom is putting up something similar and getting ten times the amount of likes, and it is beginning to become an issue. There is a competitive element. Facebook is so widely used, particularly among school friends. It is merely an issue I had not thought of until recently. That could be an issue as well. I accept it is very difficult to deal with it. Mr. Milner is probably aware of it. It was brought to my attention.

Facebook is a fantastic resource. We use it to do what we do, both socially and through the political work. It is brilliant to reach out to those who we would not normally get a chance to reach. It is reassuring that Facebook has its controls.

There was one question I meant to ask. I would imagine for Facebook to implement its safety policies must require a great deal of staff. Can Mr. Milner give us some idea of what staff resources Facebook puts towards dealing with reports and with these abuse issues?

Mr. Simon Milner:

I will take the staff resources issue. I have not come across the issue of likes jealousy before. That is a new one. Maybe Ms Cartes has and she can comment on that. Then we will talk a little about how we have worked with the Irish Government over time.

On staff resources, Facebook provides a global number for staff, which is approximately 5,000. We do not provide a public breakdown of how many staff work on different matters.

The committee might be forgiven for thinking that Ms Cartes is the sole person running safety for Facebook. She is not. The committee can rest assured that a substantial number of staff are involved in work in supporting our users. A good illustration of this is that a couple of weeks ago, when the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, Deputy Richard Bruton, came to our offices when we announced that we were going to be recruiting for 100 new posts this year, there were some 60 posts advertised on our Facebook careers page and, roughly, a quarter to a third of those were in our user operations team. That gives the committee a sense of the scale of the effort but, as I stated, we do not have a public number that I can give for how many staff are involved in safety at Facebook.

On the issues of the Government, being up-front, we have not engaged with the office of Internet safety but we have engaged with the anti-bullying group set up by the ministry of education. Ms Cartes has been involved in that and can explain what we have done.

Ms Patricia Cartes:

We have engaged with the anti-bullying working group set up by the Ministers, Deputies Quinn and Fitzgerald.

We do not work directly with the office for Internet safety. However, both Webwise and hotline.ie are parts of the office for Internet safety and we engage with them on a daily basis. The channel I mentioned previously, policy casework, is open to them to submit reports to us. While we have not engaged directly with the arm of this organisation, we regularly engage with both the INSAFE and INHOPE notes that work closely with the office for Internet safety.

On the number of staff, Mr. Milner mentioned earlier that we are a technology company and engineering is at the heart of what we do. If one comes to Facebook, one will see hack signs everywhere - I refer to ethical hacking. When we realised that we were not providing users with transparency on reports, rather than looking to hire 3,000 staff to respond to queries we designed a support dashboard which brought our back-end to the front of the users.

If one submitted a report one could see the progress made on it by going to account settings. When we face safety issues we always examine how to develop technology with our engineering resources. The user support team is at the forefront when it comes to user queries, but a site integrity engineering team defines some of the mechanisms we apply over time on the platform.

Ann Phelan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Labour)
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How do we compare to other countries? Do the same issues arise with Facebook in other countries? Have other Governments asked Facebook to speak to them?

Ms Patricia Cartes:

The user base behaviour in Ireland is similar to that in other countries, so we do not see a massive difference between Ireland and other countries, particularly in Europe where most countries have similar behaviour. Over time we have learned how user behaviour varies from country to country. In one country people sent friend requests as though Facebook were a dating site, so we had to modify the way we provided support to teach people it was not a dating site. We have never seen particular patterns of behaviour in Ireland which are abusive or differ from other countries. Discussion has taken place previously on whether Ireland has more bullying than other countries. We do not think this is the case. Just like in other regions and countries there is bullying and abuse, but a very small number of the Facebook population comes across offensive content. As one interacts with one's friends one must vet the connection before engaging and this provides a safeguard.

Mr. Simon Milner:

With regard to other governments, different governments take different approaches. The UK, which is the other country I know well, has the UK Council for Child Internet Safety. Three Ministers are members of this council, which brings together industries, charities, NGOs and school experts to help co-ordinate activities on keeping children safe online. A range of issues arise including sexting, which was discussed yesterday, cyberbullying and the commercialisation of children. It is a fantastic forum in which to share best practice in a trusted way. It is not about regulation but about everybody learning from each other. We all have a mutual interest in keeping children safe online.

Ms Patricia Cartes:

It is important to note that at European level as the Minister, Deputy Rabbitte, mentioned yesterday, much has been done by the Commission. Two years ago, the Commissioner in charge of the digital agenda, Neelie Kroes, established a coalition which brought together stakeholder companies to deal with safety matters. We were part of this coalition, and it enabled us to examine five areas of concern, including age appropriate privacy settings. We all worked together and came up with a list of recommendations which all the companies are now implementing. Issues such as harmonising reporting mechanisms on various platforms were discussed. We tried to come up with a productive solution. This has benefited stakeholders in the education sector, teenagers and ourselves. We have learned much from the process of working with the Commission and the coalition members to find a harmonised approach to safety online.

Tom Hayes (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I thank committee members for their patience. I have no doubt that after this morning's session we all have much in common with regard to the safety of our children, which is in everybody's interest. As the committee is doing this work we are gaining a lot and the public and users will also gain from it. I am pleased with how we are moving on this. I thank the committee members who have deliberated yesterday and today. We will be discussing this for two more days and we will certainly take up the invitation of the witnesses to visit as part of our report. It is a very good idea. We will make contact with them in this regard. I thank the witnesses for appearing before the committee for this very worthwhile exercise.