Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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The main item before the committee is a motion regarding the case of Sergei Magnitsky. Members will recall that at last week's meeting the committee heard a presentation by Mr. William Browder who is raising awareness of the case of Mr. Magnitsky, a Russian lawyer who worked for Mr. Browder and who died in police custody in Russia in 2009. Although he is now dead, Mr. Magnitsky is now being prosecuted in Russia on tax evasion charges. Mr. Browder has been seeking support from governments and parliaments on sanctions relating to travel and assets involving individuals implicated in the death of Mr. Magnitsky.

A motion relating to the case has been tabled by Senators Walsh, Daly, Norris and Mullins and Deputies O'Sullivan, Byrne and Smith. The motion has been circulated to all members of the committee. I understand that Senator Walsh may wish to speak on this motion today.

Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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I move:

That the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade –- noting that the Russian lawyer, Mr. Sergei Magnitsky, died on 16 November 2009 at the age of 37, after being systematically denied medical care and beaten by riot guards with rubber batons in a Russian pre-trial detention centre, after he uncovered and exposed a major corruption scandal in Russia; and
- noting the passage in December 2012 of the U.S. Magnitsky Law, the European Parliament Report into establishing common visa restrictions for Russian officials involved in the Mr. Sergei Magnitsky case, the OSCE Parliamentary Assembly resolution and the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe Written Declaration, all calling for visa sanctions for the perpetrators of this crime;
- calls on the Government to impose an Irish Magnitsky Law which would:

- publicly list the names,
- deny visas into Ireland, and
- freeze any assets found in Ireland,

of Russian government officials and others who -

- were responsible for the false arrest, torture and death of Mr. Sergei Magnitsky,
- perpetrated or financially benefited from the crimes that Mr. Sergei Magnitsky uncovered and exposed, and-or
- participated in the cover up of those responsible for those crimes;

- calls for the Irish Magnitsky law to be imposed against all other gross human rights violators;
- calls on the Government to use its Presidency of the Council of the European Union to impose EU-wide visa sanctions as called for by the European Parliament.

The first paragraph of the motion sets out the circumstances that brought about the death of Sergei Magnitsky involving the denial of medical care and the fact that he was moved from one prison to a more secure but less humane one, about which we heard the last day. The second paragraph deals with the statement of facts with regard to the various bodies that have taken up the case. The third paragraph deals with our call to the Government to look at introducing a Magnitsky law which would cover the component parts that cropped up in the previous discussion we had and which also was very much part of the US Magnitsky law and involves publicly listing the names, denying relevant parties visas into Ireland and freezing assets found in Ireland. If the Government is of the mind to go with this issue, it might be done by virtue of a Magnitsky amendment to the Criminal Assets Bureau legislation. It would seem to fit that area to some extent.

It also addresses the assets and finances of Russian government officials and others responsible for the arrest and torture of Mr. Magnitsky, and the cover-up that took place subsequently. A call for an Irish Magnitsky law to be imposed against all other gross human rights violations in Russia was in the first draft but Deputy Byrne made the wise suggestion that this be made a template for dealing with any significant human rights violation which the Government or authorities might be of a mind to pursue so that these people cannot enjoy in other jurisdictions the proceeds of their criminal activities in other jurisdictions. With the ease of travel and the ease of transferring money today, we are all well aware of the need for co-operation around that. The motion also calls for the Government to utilise its Presidency of the Council of the EU to seek to extend this circumstance and the legislation surrounding it to other European countries.

We saw at our last meeting that a number of parliaments across Europe have passed motions calling on Governments to act. We were also informed that there are discussions with the EU Commission with a view to doing something in Europe, perhaps along the lines of what was done in the United States of America. There was a reaction to what was done in the USA to cut off the ability of citizens of that country to adopt children from Russia. It has led in Russia itself to public protests in certain cities where it is felt that it is against the interests of children in Russian orphanages who may not have a very bright future. They are being deprived of the opportunity to be adopted by people who would provide them with better care and life opportunities.

I am happy to move the motion but if it is felt it should be adjourned for further consideration, I am happy with that too. I would like to see consensus on this significant human rights violation. I have DVDs on the case which would make most of us recoil. It is only one case and there are others in Russia and other countries. If we are adjourning the matter for further consideration, I ask that we not put it on the long finger. If we are meeting the Russian ambassador, we should do so sooner rather than later and prior to the next meeting at which we determine the motion. I also ask that if there is an intention to amend the motion, it would not be diluted to the extent that it becomes meaningless. If we are making a statement, it should be clear and unequivocal. If we regard this as a serious human rights violation, appropriate sanctions should be applied otherwise there is no deterrent.

Eric Byrne (Dublin South Central, Labour)
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I am one of the signatories of the motion and was provoked into supporting it having heard an impassioned and intelligent presentation by Mr. Browder. I addressed the motion to the issue of human rights, which is ranked by the committee as a very important aspect of its work. I was also interested because the matter coincided with events that were happening around another man, Mr. Mikhail Khodorkovsky. In Russia, the privatisation of utilities saw all sorts of oligarchs come to prominence. It is a murky world. Members will hear me talk about the Ukraine and Tymoshenko. It is the murky world of privatising natural resources that has her in prison and allegations being made. A fundamental human rights issue which has been presented to us which is worth listening to and supporting. I understand that since Mr. Browder was here, he has been charged by the Russian authorities.

Most people will find it objectionable on human rights issues that people would be tried posthumously. To prosecute someone after he or she is dead is a rather strange legal process. I am an eternal democrat and, having had preconceived notions about other countries but then having heard from the Moroccan, Israeli or Pakistani ambassador, I appreciate absolutely that hearing from a country which has to do some explaining can give one a better overview of the issues. That is why I would be supportive of meeting the Russian ambassador to tease out some of the issues which are international in essence. The Khodorkovsky case is a significant international issue and the Magnitsky one is big because the Americans have taken it on board. The Russians are clearly taking great offence at these issues being debated. We cannot run away from the fact that we must debate them, however, in circumstances in which they have been presented to us as human rights issues. As human rights issues, we must address them.

I thank Senator Jim Walsh for producing the motion. I asked for what I thought was an important amendment to delete the word "Russia" because I felt that if a motion like this should be debated, it should be in an attempt to prevent tyrants from anywhere - not just Russian tyrants if they exist - to avail of our hospitality or banking system to transfer ill-gotten gains. I am happy to debate matter and that the members who have not signed the motion should be afforded the opportunity to examine it greater detail. I would be very happy that we progress the issue. Mr. Browder was with Ms Anne Barrington, the director general of the Department of Foreign Affairs's Europe division, and I would like to hear her view of the lobbying that went on and her view on behalf of Ireland Inc. as to how it feels on the issue.

As he mentioned the OSCE, the PA and all of these other politicians throughout the world who were supporting the motion, I asked Mr. Browder but he did not confirm that any country other than the USA had adopted legislation. We must be honest with everyone around the table and those who may be watching live that even if we pass a motion, it will take years for the parliamentary legal process to produce a Bill let alone have Europe adopt it. Nevertheless, it is important to air and debate the matter which has come before us.

David Norris (Independent)
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I apologise for my absence during some of the meeting including the private discussions. I was occupied in the Seanad with the property legislation on which I had tabled amendments. I take it there is not an enormous degree of urgency about the matter before the committee. It is not as if there is a person who is still alive whose life we could save as was the case in respect of Raul Wallenberg. We must be aware, however, that in this case the family is being victimised in the most unconscionable and disgraceful fashion. I am not sure what the degree of urgency is but imagine a delay of a week or two in the committee in passing the motion may not be of great significance.

The language used in the first paragraph of the motion is not particularly diplomatic but the facts recited in the second paragraph may be true. They are in keeping with Russian practice not just under Mr. Putin who is somebody about whom considerable doubt exists, but also under the regime from which he sprang, the Soviet Union, and beyond to the practices of the Tsarist regime. It is not unthinkable that this should have happened. The motions calls for the publishing of names, the denial of visas to travel to Ireland and the freezing of assets. We should bring in such measures. I am delighted that the motion should extend to other countries but that is where we will have a difficulty. I doubt very much that any of these boyos have assets here or want to visit Ireland. I smiled inwardly when I heard that they might be leaping over themselves to get into our banks. They are welcome to as far as I am concerned since none of the Irish people got much good out of the blackguards. I do not think these people are likely to visit Ireland.

It is a very good suggestion of Deputy Eric Byrne's to delete the word "Russia" to extend the motion to all countries. It is very idealistic, however. I would love if Ireland was in the vanguard in having an ethical foreign policy as attempted by Mr. Robin Cook, before he was taken asunder, and I regret and deplore that it is not the case. However, if we are only going to trade with people who share our ethics and worldview, we will have a list of countries as long as our arms that we cannot trade with including China. I can supply quite a few names.

Doubts have been raised about America and its use of drones, little mechanised things used to pick people off without any fair trial. They do not even bother to arrest them. They just blast them, pop them. They hold a meeting every Tuesday to decide who and how many they will pop.

What will happen if Mr. Berlusconi gets back into power? Let us slap a CAB on him. That would be worthwhile, it could restore our balance of payments. This is a wonderfully idealistic motion. I am happy to have put my name to it and I support it but I do not think it will have huge effect for the reasons I have specified.

It is great if we are prepared to take a stand. Let us also hear about Tibet and the monks who every day of every week burn themselves to death because of the savagery inflicted upon them by the Chinese, about whom we will not hear a whisper because they are rotten with money now that they have turned capitalist. I am all in favour of it but I doubt if we will live up to it. It would give us a great wedge to go in anytime and get some of these people.

In concert with this, when we have any of these blighters over who are punishing our people and insisting on all kinds of measures against them, we should not waste the €70,000 of good wine on them. They should be taken down to Tuam or Galway or Athlone to a soup kitchen. Let them have a feed of soup and look the Irish people in the eye. That is what I would like to see.

Seán Crowe (Dublin South West, Sinn Fein)
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Like others, I was moved by the testimony of the speaker last week on this matter. Some of us would not be too familiar with the ins and outs of the case itself. The controversy over the adoption of Russian children in the US came on to people's radar after that.

This motion is a genuine attempt to try to call attention to the case. The sentiment behind it is good but I do not know that it will achieve what we are trying to do. It is positive that if we are to put a motion forward it would not be confined to one case but this violation is probably happening as we speak. I suggest that we defer the motion. I would be interested in hearing the views of the Russian ambassador, or someone from the embassy, of the case. I would like to hear more of its detail.

If the motion is passed we would make a recommendation to the Minister for Foreign Affairs and it would go into that system. Here we are trying to highlight the case and hopefully achieve some sort of justice for the family of this individual. On that basis there is general consensus among the members of the committee. The sensible thing to do would be to put it on hold until we get more information.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I agree with the previous speaker. This is a very serious issue and it readily lends itself to major input from the committee. In order that the committee might make its best intervention it should have available to it the maximum amount of information possible, corroborative evidence, etc. In any situation of this nature, which involves an alleged human rights abuse, we need to know all the facts from both sides before we reach a conclusion on it. That applies to all such situations because we never know when a situation is likely to present itself that may need similar attention and we may not always like the line we have to take. We need to be moderate and considered in our opinion and we need to have the maximum amount of information available when we have our discussion and then we need to pursue whatever needs to be pursued at whatever level it needs to be pursued to the best of our ability.

Normally I would agree with Senator Norris but I wish to point out in respect of our EU colleagues and Mr. Barroso and others, that if it were not for them we would have been a sad, sad entity over the past four years.

David Norris (Independent)
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We are a sad, sad entity.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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We would be much sadder. In case anybody does not know it, if we went the route that some people suggested four years ago-----

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy is moving into a different area now.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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It was discussed here a minute ago and the Chairman allowed a discussion on this as well. If we went that particular route-----

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy should keep it brief. We are not going down that road.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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-----we would now be faced with the most appalling mess that anybody has ever seen. Not alone would we not hold the position we now hold in the European and global arenas-----

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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We are talking about human rights now, not the economy.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I am talking about human rights as well.

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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With all due respect-----

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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The Chairman should wait a second-----

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy should stick to the subject matter.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I am responding to subject matter that was discussed here a few minutes ago.

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Senator Norris was talking about human rights.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Not necessarily. He was not talking about human rights. I reserve the right to respond. That is my right in any democracy.

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy can make a brief response.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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If the Chairman ceased interrupting me I might have been able to respond.

David Norris (Independent)
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Temper, temper.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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It is not temper at all. When the Senator makes allegations of a groundless and spurious nature he should expect to get a reply. If he does not have the stamina to take the reply-----

David Norris (Independent)
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But I have.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I want to conclude-----

David Norris (Independent)
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I very happily engaged with the old bluster on RTE the other night.

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I want Deputy Durkan to conclude.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I want to conclude by saying-----

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I am not taking any more of this.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I have the utmost respect for our European colleagues and for what they have done by way of assistance to our nation and we should respect that.

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Senator Norris-----

David Norris (Independent)
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I was just explaining. It was a pious ejaculation.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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To hell with the Senator’s ejaculations.

David Norris (Independent)
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I am very careful with them these days.

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Please, Senator Norris. I call on Senator Daly.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Chairman and I will stick to the point. I have heard the facts of this case and it is amazing that a government would decide to put a man on trial despite his having met his death in the most appalling circumstances. In essence one could well and truly say that he was murdered by the Russian State. That view is based on the evidence I have heard but I would welcome the input by the Russian Government to see what it has to say about the issue. Then the motion would be worthy of consideration. If members want to put forward amendments I would be more than willing to listen to them but this committee should put its weight behind it.

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Before I ask Senator Daly to adjourn the debate I would like to get the support of the committee to invite the Russian ambassador in here.

David Norris (Independent)
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That is a very good idea.

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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If members want to submit amendments or table another motion I will take those for the next meeting.

Eric Byrne (Dublin South Central, Labour)
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I am anxious to hear from the European division of the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade.

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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We will either seek a meeting with them or get up-to-date information from them.

David Norris (Independent)
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A briefing note would be sufficient.

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Yes if we get an up-to-date one from them prior to our meeting we will discuss that too. I ask Senator Daly to adjourn the motion.