Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees

Wednesday, 6 March 2013

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Education and Social Protection

Education Budget: Discussion with Minister for Education and Skills

2:15 pm

Photo of Joanna TuffyJoanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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Members will recall that before Christmas, there was a call for a meeting to discuss the impact of decisions taken in budget 2013, particularly on education services. I welcome the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Ruairí Quinn, to discuss these decisions. I ask those in attendance to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against a person, persons or an entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. I invite the Minister to make his opening remarks.

Photo of Ruairi QuinnRuairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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We live in difficult times, as all members know. My commitment to fairness in society remains strong and is made very clear in the 2013 education budget. The pupil-teacher ratio in primary schools has been protected for the 2013-14 school year. For mainstream schools, this is the second year in a row that we have managed to protect the pupil-teacher ratios, despite the pressures on the education budget. The pupil-teacher ratio has also been protected for free second level schools. This will ensure a broad range of subject choices remains available to students in free schools. Fee-charging schools will see their pupil-teacher ratios rise from 21:1 to 23:1 from next September. An analysis of the funding of these schools has just been published and shows the surplus disposable income available to these 55 schools.

The overall number of SNAs remains at 10,575 for the coming year. This continues our record of protecting overall SNA numbers since entering office in 2011. Resource teachers have also been protected. In 2011 we increased the overall number of resource teachers from 9,600 to 9,950 and that number has been retained for 2013. The DEIS scheme has been fully protected this year and there are no changes to the overall staffing or funding of disadvantaged schools.

In total, this means that we expect to hire an additional 450 primary teachers and 450 second level teachers for the next school year, or 900 in all. These numbers are expected to continue to rise in coming years to deal with rising enrolments. Despite the economic position, the Government has shown its strong commitment to protecting and investing in education and creating employment for teachers.

We are committed to ensuring every child leaves school with high levels of literacy and numeracy. To ensure this, a further €6.5 million will be made available in 2013 to continue rolling out the national literacy and numeracy strategy. Some €3 million will also be spent on the overhaul of the junior cycle programme in 2013, rising to €8.7 million in 2014. The schools building programme for 2013 will see work begin on 50 new schools and major extensions and work continue on 44 projects, at an overall cost of €370 million.

The rolling out of high-speed broadband to all second level schools is continuing. Some 278 schools are now fully connected and a further 200 will be connected by next September. All second level schools will receive high-speed broadband, at no cost to them, before September 2014. The number for post-primary schools is 723.

In addition to investing in education and ensuring changes to the education budget are managed in the fairest way possible, I am implementing an ambitious reform agenda to ensure better outcomes for all students. The action plan published last year in response to the forum on patronage is being implemented. This will ensure greater parental choice of school type and patronage in primary education, an option which is long overdue. Some 90% of the 3,200 schools are under the patronage of the Catholic Church and 95%, in total, are under the patronage of Christian churches.

The literacy and numeracy strategy is continuing to be rolled out to ensure all students are fully literate and numerate before they leave school. To support this strategy, the time spent on literacy and maths was lengthened this year, standardised testing was extended to give us a better idea of improvements for each child and the reporting of information to parents was improved. In 2013, €6.5 million will be spent on continuing to drive this strategy.

A complete overhaul of the junior cycle programme is under way. The current system sees many students switching off from learning in second year at post-primary level and the formal examinations at the end of third year make that worse. The reformed junior cycle programme will begin in September 2014 and place emphasis on school-based assessment rather than rote learning for a national examination that is simply seen as a dry run for the leaving certificate examination. In 2013 we will spend €3 million in resourcing the new junior cycle programme, rising to €8.7 million in 2014.

Legislation will be introduced later in 2013 to ensure school enrolments in primary and second level schools are managed in a fair and non-discriminatory manner. We have announced for the first time ever a transparent five-year building programme, providing certainty for parents, teachers and schools about their future. Our planned investment is €1.5 billion.

The 33 VECs are being consolidated to create 16 local education and training boards. I thank members for their co-operation when the legislation passed through the Dáil. The new bodies will take over the management of the existing FÁS training centres and deliver the training and apprenticeship courses that industry and wider society need. The legislation is due to go before the Seanad shortly. FÁS is being replaced by SOLAS, a new body that can properly control the operation and funding of a co-ordinated further education and training sector. The legislation has just passed Second Stage in the Dáil and I hope it will be up and running later this year.

The number of publicly funded colleges that train teachers is being reduced from 19 to six to ensure the best quality training for teachers. Work is also under way to implement the new strategy for higher education.

I am happy to take questions.

Photo of Charlie McConalogueCharlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister for attending.

What are the Minister's current expectations as to whether he will be obliged to deliver further cuts to the education sector in the budget? Does he envisage budgetary pressures next year within the system which may lead him to cut some programmes? For example, as the Minister pointed out, this year 450 additional teachers were hired in September at both primary and secondary levels and this trend probably will continue next year. Will budgetary pressures in this respect lead the Minister to finding cuts somewhere else? In the past year, unexpected funds had to be found for retirements and can the Minister envisage anything similar on the horizon that would be an issue for the education budget next September?

While I fully comprehend and appreciate the difficult times we are in, my party and I believe the funding of education should be protected and while I acknowledge education has a very big budget, €90 million was taken out of it last year. Such cuts certainly hurt and members are aware of the impact it will have on the further education sector. Another issue I wish to take up with the Minister again today is that of career guidance. The impact of the cut made in budget 2011, when €32 million for careers guidance was removed, and how it is playing out at second level is becoming clearer. I acknowledge the Minister made the point repeatedly that school management has discretion to decide how guidance hours will be provided. However, it has led to difficult situations in many schools and I am aware of one school which recently experienced two suicides and in which the guidance counsellor hours were cut significantly on foot of the aforementioned cutback in the budget. As this cut has created real difficulties, consideration should be given to reinstating this funding in the next budget and I ask the Minister to respond to that suggestion.

I will turn to a couple of other recent current issues. First, what precisely are the Minister's plans regarding the capital assets test? Many confusing statements and signals have emanated from both Government parties in respect of what plans are in place. As far as working productive assets are concerned, my party will be totally opposed to them being taken into account. The Minister has stated several times he believes there is unfairness within the system with regard to how self-employed incomes are assessed. If he considers this to be the case, I have no problem in engaging in discussion with the Minister and his party to ascertain where they perceive such unfairness to lie because if such unfairness exists, consideration absolutely can be given to addressing it. However, the key point must be that one seeks a reflection of the accurate, real income of people and not notional income based on productive assets. That suggestion must be off the table and the Minister should clarify today that this will be off the table. There have been conflicting signals and this is a good opportunity for the Minister to so do. Second, in respect of fee-paying schools, I note the departmental report was published in recent days and I believe this issue has become quite a football between and within the two Government parties. It is being used as an appropriate opportunity for backbenchers with very few constituents who attend fee-paying schools to come out and decry this type of thing while others, who represent constituencies with significant numbers of fee-paying students, are stating they will have no more of that. While it has been very convenient, it is a poor way to treat the sector. The parents of students who attend fee-paying colleges also pay taxes and the contribution of the State towards those schools is significantly less than what it contributes to the non-fee-paying sector. A realistic debate and conversation on the issue is required, rather than the sensationalist approach that has been evident in too many instances recently.

On the issue of special needs assistants and learning support and resource teachers, the Minister has outlined the pressures arising from additional numbers of students entering the educational system in the years to come and how the number of regular classroom teachers will be increased to reflect that change. However, I have discerned no such intentions on the Minister's part to increase proportionately the number of special needs assistants, resource teachers or learning support teachers. The Minister is selling his retention of the cap at current levels as him protecting these hours. However, if these numbers are not increased in line with those of classroom teachers, effectively it is a cut because more students are entering the system and the same hours must be spread among more students. This leads to effective cuts to the most vulnerable of students who need such support most of all and if they do not get it, they can fall behind in their education in consequence. These are some of the key points the Minister should address in his response.

2:25 pm

Photo of Jonathan O'BrienJonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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While Deputy McConalogue has covered most points, I will raise one or two more. The minor works grant has been put to one side because of financial pressures, which, as I have stated previously, is an extremely short-sighted measure because schools that use this type of grant to maintain their properties will fall into greater disrepair and it will cost more in the long run. I ask the Minister to reconsider this decision. Alternatively, he might provide members with analysis on whether a study was conducted as to how it will affect particular schools.

Everyone recognises that in common with all other Departments, the education sector is under significant pressure. It is not always about where one can save money or can implement cuts as one also should give consideration to the different ways in which education is delivered. I am sure the Department could and should be considering a number of cost-neutral measures and perhaps a discussion is required on some such measures that could be implemented and which would improve the manner in which the education system is delivered. I acknowledge the Minister is so doing in the context of the legislation members have just been discussing regarding the further education sector. This demonstrates how it is possible to bring forward positive reforming measures, which will have a highly positive impact and which will save money in the long term, without affecting front-line services. Perhaps a wider discussion is required on such measures at both primary and post-primary level. Is the Department considering other cost-neutral measures at present?

One major issue affecting the teaching profession at present is that of newly qualified teachers and the difficulties they face in trying to secure full-time employment. The Minister might be able to provide some thoughts and ideas on how the Department plans to address the casualisation taking place within the teaching profession. On the question of student grants, a number of areas must be considered. While a reduction of 3% in grants is being contemplated, one reason the Department put forward was that income levels need to be considered. Income levels have fallen by approximately 8% and it must be seen in that context. While this may be the case, expenditure from those incomes also has increased. As people are paying more indirect taxation and property taxes are being introduced, families' actual disposable income also is decreasing and this matter must be considered. I am interested in the subject of capital assets in respect of grants and when that policy will be produced because it will have a significant effect on a large number of people who are trying to access the education system. As for the issue of fee-paying schools, members had sight of the report yesterday and I wonder what is the next move in this regard. I am sure it will feed into the budget measures that will be announced for next year but I would appreciate the Minister's thoughts in this regard.

It was clear from that report that fee-paying schools can absorb a change in the pupil-teacher ratio. According to the figure in the report, if the pupil-teacher ratio was increased to 28:1, they could even absorb that. It is currently 23:1, so there is scope there. I know the Minister cannot do it in one fell swoop but is the Minister examining that matter in terms of trying to save money? If we are saving money there we need to invest it in education in disadvantaged communities. That is what needs to happen and no one could argue against such a policy. I wonder what the Minister's own thoughts are on that point.

2:35 pm

Photo of Joanna TuffyJoanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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Does Deputy Ó Riordáin want to come in now or will he wait?

Photo of Aodhán Ó RíordáinAodhán Ó Ríordáin (Dublin North Central, Labour)
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Unfortunately, I am in between two committee meetings - this one and the Select Sub-Committee on Finance, which is dealing with the Finance Bill. If the Minister wants to respond to some of the issues that have been raised, I might come in afterwards.

Photo of Joanna TuffyJoanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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Okay, I wish to ask a couple of questions myself. As regards fee-paying schools, our committee is looking at the Finnish education system. By law, schools in Finland - including private schools - cannot charge fees. That is an interesting system. They do have private schools in the Finnish system but they are not allowed to charge fees, so they must find extra funds elsewhere. In addition, they are not allowed to circumvent the rules. Apparently, there have been legal cases about that.

People say it will cost the State money to bring schools into the non-fee paying sector. Recently a school in Kilkenny, and other schools, have moved into the non-fee paying sector, so I wonder how much that cost the State. Is there any figure on it?

Many schools lament the fact that they do not have the summer work scheme any more. They found it was a good scheme whereby they could do bits and pieces. Many schools are not getting their extension for a while so this was one way to cope with refurbishment in the meantime. Does the Minister have any plans to reintroduce that scheme?

If the Minister is thinking about introducing an assets test, would it be done this year or further down the line?

Photo of Jonathan O'BrienJonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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School uniforms is an issue that comes up regularly. I know it is not directly a budgetary issue but why is there a reluctance to engage with boards of management and patrons on this matter? For example, one must buy uniforms for a school in my community from one particular retailer. One does not have a choice and it costs an arm and a leg. It creates so much hardship for families leading up to the start of the school year. I do not know why the Department is reluctant to grasp that nettle and issue directives to boards of management to discontinue this type of practice. Is there a reason why the Department is reluctant to take such a measure?

Photo of Joanna TuffyJoanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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Does Deputy Ó Riordáin wish to come in now?

Photo of Aodhán Ó RíordáinAodhán Ó Ríordáin (Dublin North Central, Labour)
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Yes. I thank the Minister for attending the committee and I apologise for being late. Four of us were over in Finland last week. It was fascinating to see the difference between what we have - which is effectively a State-funded system - and what they have, which is a State system. In Finland, all children in a particular school district attend the one school. It was interesting to see that children there do not start school until seven years of age. They stay in the one continuum of education from seven to 16, so that the traumatic transfer to second level does not necessarily take place. It was also interesting to hear some of the buzz-words they were using, such as "trust". Teachers are trusted because they have a high standard of education themselves and all have masters degrees. There is not a big inspection regime and there only seems to be one state exam at the age of 19.

I deliberately asked what they would think of a system which had girls and boys being taught in separate schools, and all wearing school uniforms. I got the predictable response of puzzled faces looking at each other and asking, "Where is this place that you speak of?" It was Ireland, of course.

We had a meeting with the Finnish Parliament's education and culture committee. A conservative MP told us we had to understand that the most important thing about the Finnish education system was equality. While Finland is an interesting dynamic, we need to address a few things in the Irish education system. Deputy O'Brien rightly referred to back-to-school costs, including school books. As regards the relationship between the State, the Department and patrons, at what stage can we encourage patron bodies to have a more active role in running individual schools and in policies?

We have a problem with an over-supply of primary teachers. The new Hibernia College is churning out a huge number of highly qualified teachers but there are no jobs for them. There seems to be no level of regulation, so does the Minister have a comment to make about it? It is unfair to have a system that produces so many teachers when there will never be enough jobs for them, regardless of budgetary measures that change from year to year.

There is a huge volume of work involved, given the list of reforms that are taking place. The junior cycle is a great reform and the focus on literacy is very important.

The issue of fee-paying schools is quite current and the report has only just been released. The Minister may not wish to comment on it but the report has debunked the simplistic argument that if expenditure on subventing teachers in those schools was withdrawn it would save us €90 million. The Minister has been increasing the pupil-teacher ratio in those schools over a period of years. I suggest that such a progression over the years would ease the reliance of those schools on the State, but there will come a tipping point for many schools which may find themselves going into the State system.

We have to talk about teacher morale. I visit schools regularly and talk to principals and teachers there. For whatever reason, they feel as if the political system, the media or society in general does not appreciate them, does not feel they do a good job or feels they are not worth the money or holidays they receive. That is a complete contrast to what we discovered in Finland. Perhaps Irish teachers have always felt this way but particularly in recent years - I do not think it is particular to this Government or the previous one - they have felt undervalued by society. It is difficult to drive reforms if people are not coming on board and are not empowered by the process.

At what stage can we have a quantifiable status as to how successful, or otherwise, the national literacy strategy has been? These strategies are put in place - often with the best will in the world and for justifiable reasons - with major research behind them but we need to be sure we are doing the right thing. Is there a strategy in place to take account of what is being done and achieved, and whether we are going the right way about it?

Photo of Joanna TuffyJoanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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I wish to clarify that in Finland the private schools are State-funded, like here, but they are not allowed to charge fees. Their tuition is paid for by the State but they cannot charge fees. I will now ask the Minister to respond.

Photo of Ruairi QuinnRuairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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With the Chairperson's permission, I will take the questions that were common to all four questioners first. I will then go back to the individual questions from Deputies McConalogue, O'Brien and Ó Ríordáin.

As regards capital assets, the only assessment made in the allocation of application for support is on the income of the family house. No other asset test is currently applied. Whether it is a small business, a farm or any other kind of enterprise, no assessment is made of the value of that particular business in its entirety. We set up an interdepartmental working party.

It has produced a report, which is being finalised, and it made a series of recommendations, some of which have got into the public domain. This is not against farmers. It is not against small business. It is about fairness. The Government has not yet had a chance to discuss it. Given the season, because of the St. Patrick's Day ministerial commitments plus Easter - and in my case the teachers' conferences, which affect all of us in this room - I do not expect there will be a definitive decision on that until some time in April.

Various points of view have been expressed. Some expressed the view that this is some kind of anti-rural position on my part. It is not. There are cases in which the potential capacity of substantial businesses, be they agricultural or otherwise, to fund the fees of participating in education are discounted. Businesses need working capital, particularly those that are cyclical in nature, because cashflow is erratic. There is no intention to intervene in a situation in which one would reduce that working capital to a point at which one would endanger the business; nor would I want to do so. That would not be smart. We are trying to have a system that is fairer than the current one. I do not expect to be in a position to bring something into the public domain in an official way until the middle of April.

2:45 pm

Photo of Jonathan O'BrienJonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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When will it be put in place?

Photo of Ruairi QuinnRuairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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It would not apply to the next academic year. It would be the year after, because there would be issues such as implementation and getting the information. That is assuming we reach a decision fairly quickly.

The issue of fee-paying schools was the other one mentioned by most members. Last year, we raised the pupil-teacher ratio for fee-paying schools - 55 of them - from 21:1 to 23:1. There was some concern about where all of this is going, what was my agenda, if I had an agenda, and how far we would go. As the committee will be aware, an bord snip nua, Colm McCarthy's body, had recommended that it be increased as far as 28:1.

We had very little information. The schools themselves published a conclusion from a PricewaterhouseCoopers, PwC, report which stated that having fee-paying schools was to the State's advantage because it costs the State less to have a student in a fee-paying school, but they have never published the full report. We undertook to do an analysis, not an audit, of fee-paying schools. The methodology used was to ascertain the fee being charged by each of the schools, which is in the public domain, and to do a simple multiplication based on the school numbers, which we knew. Mr. Martin Hanevy, an assistant secretary in Athlone, was driving the project. The Department contacted all of the schools stating the Department's calculation of their gross income and asking them to confirm such was the case and whether it was their effective income. They responded in various ways, most of them looking for a confidentiality clause, into which we entered. We were then told that they have a certain number of students who are being carried on reduced fees - in some cases, the families are not paying the fees because they are no longer in a position to pay them - or they have obligations with regard to mortgages on school buildings and other ancillary costs. Therefore, we got a net figure. All of this is in the report that was published yesterday. Deputy O'Brien probably has not had a chance to go through it.

In order to respect the request for anonymity from the schools and also to make no distinction between Catholic, Protestant and other denominations, we grouped them under two categories: volume of income, based on the scale of the fee, and size of the school, based on enrolment. There are a number of calculations that come out of that. They are in broad bands - approximately, from memory, five or seven bands and clusters. The total amount of discretionary income available, after their liabilities and obligations were discharged, for the 55 schools was €81.6 million, but that ranges from a couple of thousand euro in some cases to a significant amount in others. That is what the report tells us. As to what we will do next, no decision has been made.

Since this process started, Kilkenny College in Kilkenny city has decided to come into the free voluntary system. The committee can speak to the school as it wishes, but one of the factors that influenced the school was that, like a number of provincial schools, it had boarders, day-boarders and day students. Wilson's Hospital School in Multyfarnham was the first to construct an arrangement whereby its boarders were separately accounted for. It is a Protestant school, and Protestant families who qualify for income support - which was put in place when the free voluntary scheme was brought into existence in 1966-1967 - could be subsidised there. The day-boarders are students who travel a fair distance and who, when they arrive in the morning, might get a top-up breakfast and who certainly get lunch, tea and supervised study. Rockwell College and others run similar schemes. The components outside the classroom that are covered by the current free scheme can be charged by the school. In addition to the accounts for the residential pupils, there was what I will call a day-boarding account, where there was a fee for all-in provision of services outside the classroom. At Wilson's Hospital, the classroom subjects themselves and the teacher allocation come under the umbrella of a free voluntary school. That model - there is a transitional arrangement within it that has been constructed by the school section in Athlone - was developed in consultation with Wilson's Hospital over a couple of years. It is that model that Kilkenny College examined and decided made sense for it. It made sense for two reasons. First and foremost, from a resource point of view, the capitation that the school would get and the pupil-teacher ratio that it would get, as distinct from what it got under the fee-paying scheme, were more attractive. From the point of view of ethos, it made a great deal of sense. Anecdotally, I encountered this at a function at Alexandra College in south Dublin, which is a Church of Ireland girls' school, where a number of parents from Kilkenny said to me that many of the Protestant families in the area - I refer to rural south Leinster and north Munster - simply could not afford the fees of Kilkenny College but wanted, for all the reasons to which any person is entitled, to have their children educated in a school of their ethos. That was a factor in the decision by Kilkenny College.

I should say that there are approximately four other schools, both Catholic and Protestant - not all of which are boarding schools - now talking to the Department. I cannot tell the committee their names they are because they have sought confidentiality. In 1966, a couple of Catholic schools chose not to come into the free voluntary system because they had recently been established and had a building programme - in effect, a mortgage - and the free scheme did not accommodate the commitments on that mortgage. There may be other schools that choose to come in. One of my concerns was the perception in Northern Ireland that somehow or other the Government was attacking Protestant schools, and it was seen as discriminatory. It is not discriminatory. That is the position.

On another similar matter, Deputy O'Brien and the Chairman inquired about the possibility of a minor works grant scheme of some kind or other. I am talking to the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Howlin, about the possibility, if some stimulus funding becomes available in whatever shape or form, of bringing it into the schools programme. There are some choices available to us. First, there is no promise of any funding. There is an expectation that there might be some, but we will not know until later. If it becomes available, there is the question of what will go into the schools physical capital programme of infrastructure. There is the summer minor works grant or, possibly, the continuation or acceleration of the process of getting rid of prefabs. In many cases, we are paying rent for prefabs. The attraction for me - and for the management bodies within schools, particularly the principals - is that in bad weather it is a nightmare moving from a stand-alone prefab into the main framework of a school.

One also has the opportunity of giving a covered link or a full link to the school if the site configuration allows for it. There is no proposal for a minor works or small works scheme at present. We are considering the matter but I cannot give an undertaking on it. That, however, is my own preference at this point in time.

I will now turn to the unanswered questions that Deputy McConalogue put to me. If I miss any perhaps I can come back to answer them if they are brought to my attention. I will be as brief as possible. He raised the view of budgetary problems manifesting themselves in terms of the coming 2014 budget. It is too early to say at this stage. The budget process has been brought back in terms of chronological order, and will now be in October, which requires us to start our preparations that bit earlier. We are dealing with internal logistics. Currently, we are being obliged to find approximately €44 million. If Croke Park II goes through we do not know how much credit will be assigned to that €44 million figure from the central public sector savings spread across all Departments. I am not evading the question but these are early days. We will meet all the additional teachers who come into the system - I have spoken about the need to hire approximately 900 new teachers. There will not be a rerun of the early retirement challenge we encountered last year, which at one stage seemed set to create a major problem. As there is not the kind of deadline we faced last year, we are not anticipating problems at this stage. If it is accepted, Croke Park II contains an equalisation measure which will provide for greater security of tenure for teachers in employment terms but now is not an opportune time to discuss the agreement given that it is now with public servants for their unions to consider in the first instance and to make or not make recommendations. Individual public servants, be they teachers, nurses or whoever else, will then vote on it. When we have a result we will have a clearer indication on the budgetary implications.

The Deputy asked about PLC cuts and their consequences. We saw from Marlborough Street that the pupil-teacher ratio for post-primary schools was lower than that for PLC courses. The figures were 17 and 19, if my memory serves me correctly. We felt that young adults out of the leaving certificate cohort who had chosen to continue education would be easier to teach because they are more motivated than those who are reluctantly staying on for sixth year. In the context of the overriding principle of protecting front-line services as much as possible, we felt we could make that reduction.

Due the autonomy possessed by VECs, we were not able to conduct an impact analysis of the implications ourselves and the VECs are better placed to conduct such an analysis. We looked for 40 whole-time equivalent posts in order to provide the savings required. I have asked the VECs to provide us with an impact analysis of how this will work. Members will have been lobbied, as have I, by various PLC colleges. They tend to be in the large urban areas. For example, the City of Dublin VEC has 48 such posts, whereas County Dublin has hardly any. The old urban centres have PLC colleges or colleges of further education. The changes will not be implemented until next September and we are still waiting for a comprehensive impact analysis by the VECs. In fairness to them, the analysis is complicated by the education and training boards legislation. To take, for example, Deputy O'Brien's area of Cork, the city and the county will now become one unit and there may be potential to save jobs by redeploying people who would otherwise be lost from the system to surrounding post-primary schools which have vacancies. We have asked the incoming CEOs and the existing VECs to give us an impact analysis of what this adjustment will mean in terms of real job losses or, alternatively, courses that cannot be properly delivered and have an employment consequence. When we get that information we will try to respond but we have to achieve the savings. If we do not achieve savings in that area I will have to find them somewhere else in the education sector.

2:55 pm

Photo of Jonathan O'BrienJonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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Is there a timeframe on that?

Photo of Ruairi QuinnRuairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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We have asked them to come back to us as soon as possible. The sooner we have the information, the sooner we can construct a response. The longer they take, however, the more problematic it becomes for us. If the Deputy has any influence I ask him to use it to get them to speed up the process.

Photo of Jonathan O'BrienJonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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I will get on to Ted Owens.

Photo of Ruairi QuinnRuairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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Deputy McConalogue also raised the question of career guidance and the mainstreaming effect it has had. The youth crisis in our society that has resulted in tragedies like suicide contains some elements related to the school environment and others from outside our schools. I refer the Deputy to a substantial survey carried out by the National Council for Guidance in Education, the director of which is Jennifer McKenzie. The conclusions of that survey are less dramatic than the one undertaken by the Institute of Guidance Counsellors. We have published two reports, one with the Minister of State at the Department of Health, Deputy Kathleen Lynch, on mental health and well-being in the school environment and the other on the action plan on bullying.

Controversy has arisen over the statement by the Minister of State, which I support, on reinforcing a whole school engagement in the welfare and guidance of young people. Counselling and career guidance are two separate issues and when I speak about guidance counsellors I am referring to the pastoral care dimension. If this is everybody's concern, it is also everybody's responsibility. The health document that the Minister of State produced with major input from a number of specialists in this area states that a young person who is troubled should in the first instance be able to talk to an adult with whom he or she feels comfortable, whoever that adult may be. It may be the English teacher, the sports coach or the caretaker. Given the way in which the approach is being driven in the policy document, that adult will already have been sensitised in a school briefing which advises all adults working in the school to keep their eyes and ears open for signs of distress. The first responsibility of whoever this young person approaches is to refer him or her to the guidance counsellor and, in turn, if the counsellor believes the issues arising are much bigger than he or she is professionally equipped to address, the young person will be referred onwards. It is a three-stage approach. By mainstreaming the issue, responsibility for the well-being of students is placed on the entire community, including the mates of the young person in question, as distinct from the old perception that it was exclusively the responsibility of guidance counsellors.

I acknowledge that we have made a reduction in the allocation of resources. I am not dressing the issue up as anything other than a reduction of resources. In the first instance we have given responsibility and choice to the school principal to deploy the reduced allocation as best he or she can. Some principals have welcomed that change, whereas others have been silent and, of course, the guidance counsellors are unhappy about it. I do not think we can come to a conclusion as to whether our decision has reduced safety for young people in our schools but it was informed by the principle of reducing the impact on front-line services. The alternative was to reduce pupil-teacher ratios across the post-primary school sector.

The Deputy also asked whether the proportions of special needs assistants and resource teachers are decreasing in the context of population growth. The population is growing at a faster rate than the incidence of requirements for SNAs and resource teachers.

There will be a minor reduction in resources of 5%, from 60 to 52 minutes or thereabouts. A new NCSE board has been appointed and new research work is being done. I suggest the committee invite the NCSE to appear before it to discuss new findings. The allocation of resources, special teachers and so on is based on survey analysis and conclusions that are more than 12 years old and a great deal of work has been done in this area, both nationally and internationally, which should be brought to bear on how best to deploy the resources we have available. I will not increase the number of SNAs based on an old model of needs assessment. We are in the process of updating it. I have not done too badly, relatively speaking, to ring-fence the numbers. In the draft Croke Park II agreement a proposal is on the table, should it be accepted, for a redeployment mechanism for SNAs but not in the same way as the redeployment of teachers. If a new SNA is to be allocated to another client in another school, the first call will be on an SNA whose client has graduated or moved on. That will create employment continuity. The details have to be worked out, but that will consolidate the role SNAs have as individuals as distinct from a cohort of people.

I refer to Deputy Jonathan O'Brien's questions and the different ways of delivering education. Yesterday the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources and I were in a post-primary school - Presentation College, Warrenmount - in Dublin's inner city. It is approximately a 20 minute walk from here. Four young fifth year students were doing trigonometry from the honours mathematics syllabus by video link with a class in Coláiste Bríde in Clondalkin, a sister school in the Presentation order. They are unable to do honours mathematics in their school because it is not offered, but they are able to take the subject with the same teacher as the class in Clondalkin. There was a media scrum yesterday because broadband was being rolled out, but I am sure the Deputy could find examples of this in his area. It is the way to go. We can now ensure languages, higher level maths and science courses can be taken by those who want to do them. In the past we could not, for example, make science compulsory because every post-primary school did not have a science laboratory. The resources of the schools got in the way of the Department wanting to make it desirable for a subject to become mandatory. We can make that decision by providing the communications technology to enable students to take the course and, for example, without having to provide a new laboratory in a school, which is a significant capital cost. County Meath VEC has for the past year delivered chemistry classes from Longwood to other schools in its catchment area. They can do the close-up stuff for experiments and so on. When one considers the Open University has been doing this for years, it is possible; therefore, we are examining different ways of delivering education.

On the question of new teachers, we have consistently asked the INTO, because the problem arises primarily at primary level, not to rehire retired teachers on a short-term basis. It is union policy, but the principals who rehire, perhaps, the former principal are all union members and, therefore, we sent a circular 31/2011 in May 2011 following the first teachers' conference I attended to focus on this issue. It is an issue and we do not hire the teachers directly. It is a matter both for the teachers' unions and young teachers, in particular, to enforce their own instruction in this regard.

The Deputy also asked about school uniforms, which brings us back to the issue we discussed when Deputy Áodhan Ó Ríordáin was present - the relationship within the schools between the Department and the providers. We have, in effect, a public private partnership and the private part of it relates to the ethos of the schools and decisions on uniforms, codes of discipline and a host of other issues. What is possible is an initiative from the National Parents Council - Primary to mobilise parent representatives on all boards of management to ask for a generic uniform, whereby parents could go to any retail outlet. In my experience it can cost between €50 and €70 for a jumper when a similar jumper could be bought for €25 and €30 with the school only needing to add the emblem. We are trying to get this to a point where all the large retailers will stock generic uniforms and schools can differentiate because they can do it. The Finns probably wonder why we have school uniforms, but that is for another day. There are arguments for and against uniforms in this culture and the Department will not take a policy position on it. That is part and parcel of the public private partnership. This is correctly an issue that should be decided by a school community. Unlike in Finland, the United Kingdom and other countries where, if one lives a certain area, one can only attend the public school in that area, we have choice in this country. The solution to the problem of the cost of the uniform is to have a generic garment and a dedicated badge and I would like the issue to be addressed.

3:05 pm

Photo of Jonathan O'BrienJonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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Is there anything the Minister can do proactively to ensure that happens?

Photo of Ruairi QuinnRuairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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We have, for example, produced guidelines and ways to put in place a book lending and library scheme, showed how it can be done and invited schools to do it. We have provided grants in that direction. There is an element of leading the pack and creating the conditions. If we could have the generic uniforms costed, a parent representative could say the existing uniform costs X and every three years it changes colour because schools are colour coded between junior and senior cycles, which is not a bad thing, but there are costs associated. If we could have generic uniforms costed with a range of uniforms and badges and compared to current costs, we will probably try to explore that issue. We are under resource constraints in the context of manpower because we are losing numbers, but, ideally, that is the way we should go. Parent power can then take over.

Photo of Joanna TuffyJoanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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The committee is compiling a report on that issue and we will send it to the Minister.

Photo of Ruairi QuinnRuairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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That would do us a great favour if the committee could do the work for us. There is a great deal of pressure on us as we lose staff. If that work was done by the committee, I would be keen to respond to it.

Photo of Mary MoranMary Moran (Labour)
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I am sorry I had to leave earlier, but I had to attend a division in the Seanad.

I taught for many years and some schools can be closed in their views regarding uniforms. Even when it comes to the jumper, they will only accept a particular brand, while a factory outlet could produce it at a fraction of the cost, but they will not allow people to buy them because they are not of the appropriate quality.

Given the cuts affecting child benefit, the shoes and everything, it would be very beneficial to have a standard generic uniform. I know the Minister addressed that matter in one of his first speeches in the Seanad.

I feel very strongly about schoolbooks. I taught in a school where the schoolbooks scheme funded the tuck shop. It taught children entrepreneurship and how to manage because the tuck shop depended on how the book scheme went. However, in a school with no book scheme a significant amount of books are lost and may be handed up in lost property at the end of the year. In addition, teachers change books at the end of every year when there is absolutely no need. I know the Minister has made great progress and I commend him on his awareness of many of the issues in schools.

I have raised the issue of retired teachers several times in the Seanad and raised it again yesterday. As we approach the time of the year when the practical tests for music and home economics take place and we are three months away from the State examinations, I ask that a conscientious effort be made to employ newly-qualified teachers. I know the Minister said that last year when I raised it, but I am still aware of several hundred newly-qualified teachers who felt they were not given that option.

3:15 pm

Photo of Averil PowerAveril Power (Fianna Fail)
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I apologise for my absence earlier - I was detained at the same vote in the Seanad. I know the Minister has referred to other issues in respect of DEIS schools. Is the Department of Education and Skills doing anything to establish a better link with the Department of Health on the services provided in those areas? Some of the disadvantaged schools in Darndale have highlighted that they have children with serious behavioural problems who were supposed to be given appointments with behavioural psychologists. However, the parents do not bring them and then the school has a problem getting access to other resources because it cannot get the report confirming that the child has a problem. Given that many children from the school are attending that service two miles away, it would make much more sense if the health service staff, who are sitting waiting for the children to turn up, actually delivered it for a few hours a week at the school. Is much work going on in that area?

It is a year since we published the Bill to change section 37 of the Employment Equality Act and I raised it with the Minister, Deputy Shatter, in the Seanad last year. I ask the Minister to step up the work on that. As he knows, at the end of last year's debate, the Minister, Deputy Shatter, said he was going to wait until the equality bodies merged and then task them with the project. Not only have they not come forward with the proposals, but the bodies have not been merged. While I know it is something to which the Minister, Deputy Quinn, is personally committed, I ask him to make a greater Government push to get it done. We are now facing into another school year without it being addressed. I commend the work the Minister, Deputy Quinn, has already done. I know BeLonG To is launching its Stand Up! campaign tonight with financial support from the Department of Education and Skills. I commend the work the Minister is doing on homophobic bullying, but I would like to see more urgency in changing the legislation.

Photo of Ruairi QuinnRuairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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There will be movement fairly soon on section 37. On DEIS schools we do not have the information here. I have spoken to the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, Deputy Fitzgerald, because her Department is also involved and acts as a kind of link. The present interaction is not satisfactory. I am not sure what we can do about it, but I know it is a problem and I thank Senator Power for bringing it to my attention.

In response to Senator Moran's point, it is about trying to raise consciousness. We have advised the State Examinations Commission. For example, unemployed teachers will certainly be given preference. Unemployed people generally will get preference for invigilating examinations. For aural or oral examinations, if we can get the teachers, it is recommended. However, we need to come back and look at the triplication we have in the area of oral examinations. It is for down the road. It would be great if that could be done during the Easter holidays and it was possible to have teachers examining pupils from each other's schools.

Photo of Mary MoranMary Moran (Labour)
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That traditionally happened in the VECs.

Photo of Joanna TuffyJoanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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I thank the Minister for accepting our invitation to attend today's meeting.

The joint committee adjourned at 3.45 p.m. until 1 p.m. on Wednesday, 13 March 2013.