Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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I welcome the members of Transgender Equality Network Ireland to the meeting to discuss experiences of equality of treatment at the Department of Social Protection. I welcome the following: Mr. Broden Giambrone, director; Ms Victoria Mullin, board member and member of Families Against Forced Divorce; Mr. Darrin Matthews, board member; Dr. Tanya Ní Mhuirthile, board member; and Ms Orla O'Sullivan, communications officer. I also welcome any other guests in the Visitors' Gallery.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such as way as to make him or her identifiable. By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to this committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. Witnesses are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given. They are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that where possible they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

Mr. Broden Giambrone:

I thank the Chairman for the invitation to address the committee and the members present to discuss this very important issue. We are looking forward to the opportunity to answer questions and get into the issues in more detail. I will provide some background and my colleagues will speak to the substantive issues, with Dr. Ní Mhuirthile taking the presentation to its end.

Transgender, or trans, people are among the most vulnerable members of Irish society and experience high levels of stigmatisation and marginalisation. Research shows that trans people experience some of the highest rates of suicidality, experience regular harassment and violence and systemic discrimination. In Ireland, a major contributing factor to the marginalisation of trans people is the lack of State recognition of trans identities. Legal gender recognition would provide a process for changing the gender marker on the applicant’s birth certificate. This is important as birth certificates are foundational identity documents which are necessary to obtain a PPS number or to get married. In our current position, many trans people may be able to change certain identification documents - such as a passport or driving licence - to the preferred gender but they are unable to change a birth certificate. That can have a significant impact as it can lead to them being "outed" when going for jobs or to university, or in any case where identification must be shown. This puts an individual at risk and can lead to denial of services or restrict an individual's ability to travel domestically or internationally.

Ireland is one of the few remaining countries in the European Union that does not allow for legal recognition of trans people. This is despite a High Court ruling in 2007 which found the State to be in breach of its positive obligations under Article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights, ECHR, in failing to recognise Dr. Lydia Foy in her female gender and provide her with a new birth certificate. This was the first declaration of incompatibility to be made under the ECHR and we still have not acted on it.

In May 2010, the Government set up the gender recognition advisory group, GRAG, an interdepartmental working group whose remit was "to advise the Minister for Social Protection on the legislation required to provide for legal recognition by the State of the acquired gender of transsexuals".

Following consultation and research the group outlined a legal pathway and qualification criteria for legal gender recognition. It is important to point out that the proposed qualification criteria for the Irish legislation are very much borrowed from the UK's gender recognition Act in 2004. The criteria will include a requirement that applicants be 18 years of age or over, a formal diagnosis of gender identity disorder, GID, plus relevant medical evidence and the requirement that an individual not be in an existing valid marriage or civil partnership. Applicants would also be required to apply to a three-person independent panel.

We strongly believe that the proposed qualification criteria for gender recognition are highly restrictive and clearly infringe on an individual's right to privacy, personal dignity and family life. The process is discriminatory and will cause serious hardship for individuals and their families. One of the proposed requirements is that the individual will need a formal diagnosis of GID or have undergone gender reassignment surgery. Gender identity disorder is a diagnosis that is found in the American Psychiatric Association's "Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders", DSM. People are required to have a diagnosis of GID from this manual from medical professionals in Ireland. If this diagnosis of GID is used, it will be exclusionary for individuals who either cannot or choose not to undergo medical interventions or get a diagnosis of a mental illness. A diagnosis of GID also excludes people who are intersex, many of whom would benefit enormously from being able to access gender recognition legislation. The term "gender identity disorder", while it is used throughout the gender recognition advisory group, GRAG, report is now being removed from the DSM and being replaced by gender dysphoria. If we included the term, we would be enshrining an obsolete term in legislation.

The second major difficulty in the proposed legislation is the requirement to exclude people who are in existing marriages or civil partnerships. The group based its recommendations on the UK model, which provides an informal fast track. In the UK, marriage and civil partnership are afforded many of the same rights, while in Ireland the situation is quite different. In the UK married couples can get a divorce and change over to a civil partnership within 48 hours, so nobody needs to know the family has broken up, nobody must move out of the home and children do not need to know anything about it. The Irish context is very different. Couples must have no prospect of reconciliation and must be living apart for four years to get a divorce. Couples who wish to stay together and are in happy marriages would have to lie in court to access a divorce if one of them wished to have their gender recognised. Clearly, this would have a devastating effect on an individual's family.

It is vital that the legislation introduced is firmly grounded in a rights based model that is inclusive, progressive and marriage friendly. We need only look to Argentina, which introduced a gender recognition Bill that was passed in May. The criteria for changing one's gender in Argentina are now simplified and based on self-determination. There is no need for an individual to prove that they have had surgical procedures, hormonal therapy or other psychological or medical treatments, such as a diagnosis of mental illness. This law clearly separates a legal right from medical interventions. Ireland has the potential to be the first country in Europe to introduce legislation that truly respects the rights and privacy of transgender people and we must not miss that opportunity.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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Is there another speaker?

Mr. Broden Giambrone:

We have three speakers.

Mr. Darrin Matthews:

I am a board member of TENI and I run the Cork Transgender Peer Support Group. I am a transgender man. I came out to my family and friends when I was 17 years old. When I came out it was my choice, but when I fill out a legal document that seeks my birth name and personal public service, PPS, number I lose that choice. I must add my legal name change with my birth certificate every time I fill out a grant application or any form from the Government. Every time this happens I hope the person reading my documentation and making a decision will not discriminate against me based on my transgender status. A woman from the disability allowance office rang me to ask why my name had changed from a female name to a male name. When I told her it was because I was transgender she laughed at me and hung up the telephone. When I go out and am asked for my passport as identification to get into a premises I am sometimes turned away because my gender marker is still "F" and both my birth certificate name and my current name are printed on it.

Everybody has a right to a private life. I would like my right to be recognised. Issuing new birth certificates could easily do this and prevent embarrassment, harassment and potentially dangerous situations. My experience of being transgender does not just affect me. It also affects my family. I have an amazingly supportive and loving family. My mother put herself into almost €12,000 of debt so she could send me to private school because I was bullied for two years in my State school. She took out a loan to send me to a school where I could be called Darrin, not wear a girl's uniform and be happy. Every member of staff and every student called me Darrin instead of derogatory and cruel names.

I have many friends who are straight, gay and transgender. If a gay friend came to me and told me they had received their official diagnosis of homosexuality, I would be shocked and appalled. Homosexuality was decriminalised 19 years ago and people now cannot imagine a time when it was illegal. Most people do not know that transgender people must be diagnosed with a psychiatric illness to access treatment in this country because it such a inconceivable and ridiculous notion and is discriminatory in nature. I do not believe that because I was born in the wrong body it automatically means I have a mental illness. There is still stigma attached to having a mental health issue in this country and to force a psychiatric condition onto another human being can have detrimental effects on that person's self image and self esteem. When a couple apply for a civil partnership they are not asked for their gay diagnoses to prove their homosexuality. I had to prove I was happier as the man I should have always been to my mother, my siblings and my friends, and I had to prove I had a psychiatric illness. I should not have to prove anything to a complete stranger and seek their acceptance. I do not have to prove I am transgender enough for anybody.

My mother once asked if I was really sure that being Darrin was what I wanted. When I told her I could not go back and be happy, she just said, "Then we can only go forward my son." I always knew transitioning would never be easy, but please do not make it any harder than it already is. All I want is to be treated as an equal and with respect and dignity, as a non-transgender person would be. I want nothing more and nothing less.

Ms Victoria Mullin:

My name is Victoria Mullin. I have a tax consultancy practice in Tallaght. I am transgender and I am not insane. I am proud to be Irish. As a nation, Ireland has come a long way from the days of the comely maidens dancing at the crossroads. Single mothers no longer need die alone in shame or be squirrelled away in a laundry as punishment for their so-called sins. We have witnessed the introduction of equal rights for women and the legalisation of contraception, divorce and homosexuality. We have achieved much and many of us look back in amazement at how backward the country was not long ago. However, those who miss the good old days of inequality can take some comfort. They still have the transgender community to play with. We need the help of those who do not miss those days, and we need it now.

It appears it is still okay to discriminate against us, ignore our rights, ridicule us with jokes and sick advertisements and, now, it even appears okay to demand an end to our marriages. Less than 20 years ago divorce was still illegal in Ireland. Today, however, I and people like me face the possibility of being forced to divorce to access our right to legal recognition. The legislation currently being prepared is based on the report of the gender recognition advisory group. Imagine the furore that would erupt if a group was formed by the Government to report on women's rights and the Government went on to appoint only men to that group. We would all be shocked. No member of the GRAG was transgender or even experienced in transgender issues. That absence is evident. Among many of its ill-thought out recommendations, the report clearly states that people in an existing valid marriage should be excluded. The group demands that we must divorce our husbands or wives before the State will recognise who we are. This is not some nightmare scenario from the Nazi period of the 1930s, but it might be our life in Ireland in the 21st century. Legal recognition should not be contingent on the destruction of our marriages and families.

We remain the last of the 27 member states of the EU not to allow any kind of gender recognition for transgender people. Without such recognition, difficulties can arise in our jobs, pensions, insurance and foreign travel. Even our right to participate in most sporting activities may be prohibited. If the proposed legislation is enacted, I may be prevented from playing golf. If that is not a horrific state of affairs, I do not know what is. Marriages where one spouse is transgender are lucky to survive yet some do. In my case, we were not quite as fortunate. While my wife and I live apart, we remain committed to our children and work together daily in our family business. Neither of us wishes to seek legal separation, let alone divorce, and I find it deeply offensive to be presented with such a choice. If I chose legal recognition over my wife, what does she get in return for the ending of her marriage? How have her rights been affected by the introduction of such perverse legislation?

The Government will most likely argue that it has an obligation under Article 41° of the Constitution to defend and protect the family and we agree. The Government may also argue this involves the prohibition of same-sex marriages but we do not agree. In any event, we did not contract same-sex marriages. My marriage is fully valid under Irish law as, at the time of getting married, my wife and I were physically and legally opposite genders. We have three fantastic children but, due to a worsening of my medical condition over the years and, acting on medical advice, I underwent full gender reassignment surgery. I am now physically female, whether my country chooses to recognise it or not. What of my family? Does the Government have no obligations to us? Is my family not also entitled to the full protection of the Irish Constitution? Why should anyone be forced to choose between family and basic human rights? We put forth that the requirement to divorce is unconstitutional because the State then fails to meet its own obligations by making such a demand of the citizen. Divorce may not be possible in our circumstances because we may be unable to satisfy the courts of an irreconcilable breakdown of the marriage, which is a key requirement under Irish law for divorce. If we can qualify for divorce, we cannot access our right of legal recognition. Are we not then back where Lydia Foy began all those years ago, when the State's continued refusal to grant gender recognition meant it remains in contravention of the European Convention on Human Rights? If so, this is all a waste of the committee members' time and mine.

In times of the deep economic hardship, the chance for this Government to do something good, at no cost, is an opportunity that should be seized. When Ireland has just been elected to the UN Human Rights Council, leading Europe in progressive gender recognition legislation is surely an easy win. If the Government chooses to listen to our voices and sees the inhumanity inherent in forced divorce in order for us to achieve gender recognition, there is a real opportunity to put Ireland at the forefront of progressive legislation that empowers all citizens. We pray that Ireland will follow the recent lead of Argentina and introduce modern, fair-minded and equality driven legislation, of which the nation can be proud. We and our families live in hope.

Dr. Tanya Ní Mhuirthile:

I have been asked to address the committee on the legal aspects of the introduction of gender recognition legislation. I reiterate that Ireland is obliged to do something to recognise the preferred gender identity of trans people as a result the High Court decision in Foy v. An t-Ard Chláraitheoir No. 2 from 2007. It was the recommendation of the gender recognition advisory group that legislation would be the most effective mechanism by which to achieve recognition. I am conscious of my limited time to talk so I will keep the critique brief but I am willing to answer questions afterwards.

The gender recognition advisory group report outlined six qualification criteria that must be met in order for an application for gender recognition to be successful. These are as follows: residency or Irish birth registration; a minimum age of 18 years; people in existing marriage or civil partnership are excluded; there must be evidence of a settled intention to live permanently in the recognised gender; the person must live for a minimum of two years, full-time, in the role before being recognised; and the person must have final diagnosis of gender identity disorder and relevant medical supporting evidence or have gone undergone gender reassignment surgery with medical evidence thereof or be recognised in an alternative jurisdiction. I will critique only three of these criteria.

The minimum age criterion is an oddity given that it is legal to consent to undergoing treatment for gender identity disorder at 16 years of age without parental consent. One can do it before the age of 16 with the consent of parents. Obliging people who go through a transition early in life, particularly in the case of intersex children, who may have been assigned a gender at birth that does not reflect their identity or subsequent bodily development, to live with incorrect identification document under the age of 18 years is particularly injurious when we live in a society where the vast majority of schools are single sex schools. This is recognised in the High Court in S v. An Bord Uchtála in 2009.

The more problematic aspects of the scheme are the two my colleagues referred to - the marriage and medical issues. To require couples to divorce where one party has transitioned subsequent to the marriage, in order for that person to be legally recognised in the preferred gender identity, is constitutionally unsound. Article 41.3.1° protects the institution of marriage. For divorce to be possible, according to the Constitution, a couple must live apart for four or five years with no reasonable prospect of reconciliation. This is not the case where marriage survives one spouse transitioning gender. For the trans spouse to be recognised, the couple must split up the family and perjure themselves in court in order to obtain a divorce so that the trans spouse is eligible to make an application under the proposed legislative scheme. This is particularly invasive to the rights of the non-trans spouse and any children of the marriage to remain members of the marital family. As an alternative, we suggest the legislation makes no mention of marriage or divorce. We recognise this could create an apparent anomaly where, post recognition, there would be what appears to be a same-sex marriage. However, we argue this is not the case. In law, the crucial time when the validity of marriage is assessed is the moment at which the marriage was entered into. We see this time and again in the case of nullity. The practice is to consider the situation of the individuals at the time the marriage was contracted. By analogy, if the person is 78 when he or she is discovered to have been underage at the time of marriage, it does not retrospectively validate the marriage. Similarly, we argue that in the case of trans marriages, both presented and were legally recognised as being of the opposite gender at the moment of marriage, they contracted a valid, opposite sex heterosexual marriage that continues to be legally valid.

The second issue is the medical evidence required by the gender recognition advisory group. This is either a diagnosis of gender identity disorder or evidence of having undergone gender recognition surgery. Previous examples of this diagnostic criteria can be seen in the UK Gender Recognition Act of 2004. When this was introduced, it was welcomed because it dispensed with the need for applicants to undergo any form of treatment prior to recognition. This represented best international practice at the time. Now, eight years later, it has become the subject of criticism. As legislation is confined to the specific diagnosis of gender identity disorder, it excludes a number of people who might need the rights contained in the legislation, such as intersex individuals, those born with bodies combining both male and female biological characteristics. Additionally, the medical diagnosis itself is under review and yesterday it was announced the wording would change so that gender identity disorder no longer exists as a medical condition and is replaced by gender dysphoria. This immediately invalidates the English legislation. It seems shortsighted to knowingly import an archaic diagnosis into Irish law. The requirements to have undergone gender recognition surgery is a throwback to exceedingly outmoded understandings of gender identity, which the UK Act was lauded for abandoning. It is impossible to access treatment without a diagnosis and so the requirement for intervention is worryingly retrograde.

Increasingly, international human rights discourse recognises the need to depathologise legal gender recognition to acknowledge that legal rights should not be contingent on medical treatment pathways. The current foremost example of international best practice in the area is the legislation introduced in Argentina last May, which simply enables an individual seeking recognition to complete a form outlining the preferred gender identity without any subsequent evidence or information. Thus, the person becomes the final arbitrator of the legal gender. This simplicity of the Argentinian scheme neatly avoids the potential pitfalls of the gender recognition advisory group's scheme. It is to this model that TENI suggests the Oireachtas looks in seeking a precedent for how to approach the matter.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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I think witnesses for their presentation. I have already met one or two of them when they lobbied me on this issue. The lobbying was quite informative.

It will be useful for the committee when the legislation eventually appears to have that extra understanding from the material the network has supplied to us. We are waiting for the heads of the Bill. The Minister has said it is due so when it appears we will be able to invite the network back for a presentation on the specific wording. The witnesses highlighted in the report the areas of concern, and that is very useful.

The key question is how many transgender people have come out at this stage. Many people must not have come out because of the stigma attached and they are living with depression and suicidal thoughts. Mr. Matthews mentioned he runs a helpline or support group. How can people who cannot get legal recognition because of the situation in Ireland be helped? Irish society has moved forward in the past 20 or 30 years but not far enough on this issue.

I look forward to the legislation in order that we can tease out the various points to try to ensure Ireland has the best possible legislation and can be an example to other countries. Argentina was mentioned as having good legislation, and there have been changes in Britain. We should look at best practice internationally and ensure our legislation stands the test of time.

Joan Collins (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I thank Transgender Equality Network Ireland for coming in. I was delighted the witnesses used their time to explain their concerns about the Bill.

Is the gender rights advisory group completely disbanded? Could it be re-established to discuss some of the issues raised? It was a serious anomaly that no one of transgender was on that committee. I am concerned that the heads of a Bill could be introduced and we that would have to start changing them dramatically. It is always difficult to do that. Would it be possible to put the GRAG back together with a representative from the transgender group to re-examine this and bring it back out in a proper format that would take on board the concerns that have been raised? I would be concerned that we would get tied down with trying to change legislation when we might not be able to change it sufficiently.

I take on board the group's points. We should check the Argentinian legislation to see how much better it is for the transgender community. We should also look at the changes in Britain. I can understand the group would want legislation introduced as quickly as possible to deal with the issues but I would like some advice on this.

Averil Power (Fianna Fail)
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I apologise for being late; I was speaking on a Bill in the Seanad. I have met Mr. Giambrone a couple of times to discuss this issue and the group will know from that and from my correspondence with the Minister for Social Protection that I fully support the group's work on this.

It is beyond time we gave proper recognition to transgender people and I share the views that have been outlined about the legislation. It is very important because we have an opportunity to learn from the countries that went before us. We are one of the last countries to give transgender people the recognition and support they deserve. We have the opportunity to learn from the weaknesses in the British legislation. It is unfortunate, however, that the report earlier this year stated we should copy the British legislation. I was at the conference of our sister party in England, the Liberal Democrats, and I met the lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender group and one of the issues we discussed was the deficiencies in the British legislation that the party is now working to change. We have the opportunity to avoid that from the outset and go with best practice, such as the Argentinian experience, or to look elsewhere and get this right from the start rather than making the mistakes others made ten or 15 years ago.

Have there been any signals from the Department about where we are at on this? When I wrote to the Minister during the summer, she had a date in the autumn set for coming to the Seanad to discuss the legislation, and that was put back. Would the group have a better idea about the timeframe from its engagement with the Department? I sent the group's criticisms to the Minister and she replied that they were being considered, but it was a general response rather than saying whether she agreed with the issues.

Forced divorce is a crazy concept and I appreciate this is part of the broader picture in respect of marriage equality because that is legally where things are tied up. I would like to see a clearer response from the Department. I have not seen it myself so does the group know what the Department is thinking now?

Marie Moloney (Labour)
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I thank the group for coming in today. The witnesses are very brave to come and bare their souls to us. I thought I did not know any transgender people but then I thought perhaps I do but I am not aware of it. It is not a tag people go around wearing. We go about our own lives and do not realise the practical problems people encounter, such as getting a passport. What happens in those instances? Are transgender people turned away or are they accepted? Do they have to give an explanation in front of a queue of people? We take travel for granted but this is a practical issue for transgender people.

This is Ireland and we know how long it takes the country to change or accept something different. We can see that with what is happening with the X case and how long it has taken us to wake up to the fact that things must be changed. Senator Bacik is introducing a civil partnership Bill in the Seanad. I have not given a lot of thought to this issue but I have been woken up today to the fact there are people who need help. Someone once asked me what I thought President Higgins would achieve by meeting young people and talking to them. I hope it would result in the acceptance of diversity of religion, sex, culture and race.

This is a big issue and I must look at the Argentina model. I will not sit here and pretend I know about this. We have a lot to do to educate ourselves but the group has brought this issue to the fore today and I will certainly seek to ensure we do whatever we can to help.

Brendan Ryan (Dublin North, Labour)
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I thank the representatives from Transgender Equality Network Ireland for the very strong presentation today on the need for legislation that would be based on best international practice. Ms Mullin spoke at the Labour Party conference, where we passed a strong motion along the lines of the proposals here today. That was an important debate within the Labour Party and given the Minister is a member of the Labour Party, we will encourage her through party structures to bring forward the legislation demanded by the group.

James Bannon (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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I join colleagues in welcoming the delegation from Transgender Equality Network Ireland and thank them for their presentation. Why did they refer to the situation in Argentina when major changes have been made in Europe? We are committed to removing the crippling stigma on people. I did not see the entire agenda for the constitutional convention, of which I am a member, but is the issue of transgender to be discussed at it?

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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We are a parliamentary, not a Government, committee. We have the possibility of making recommendations to the Minister. The gender recognition advisory group was set up by the Minister, so it would be her prerogative to do something. We have been briefed by the Department on the most up-to-date position following the recent conference. Following the gender recognition advisory group report, the Department has received the legal opinion the group had sought. The group had discussions with the Department's legal adviser on how best to proceed. The Department is awaiting the legal opinion from the Office of the Attorney General who is in the process of considering the different suggested approaches to the Bill. That is my most up-to-date information. Was the Argentinian Bill passed into law?

Dr. Tanya Ní Mhuirthile:

Yes.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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Would an amendment to the Constitution be required to bring in the legislation that Dr. Ní Mhuirthile suggests? I ask her to respond to questions and to make her concluding remarks at the same time because we are under time constraints due to the budget

Dr. Tanya Ní Mhuirthile:

I will answer the legal questions and my colleague, Mr. Broden Giambrone, will answer the more general questions and sum up, if members agree to that.

The Bill was passed into law by the Argentinian Senate. In answer to Senator Bannon, the reason we look to Argentina is that it has the most progressive rights legislation worldwide. It has been heralded internationally and globally as the best legislative framework that exists. It represents best international practice and is better than anything in Europe.

In response to the question on whether a constitutional amendment is necessary to introduce this legislation, the answer is "no" because the Constitution does not define what it considers to be man or a woman. It would have no implications on the Constitution in that way.

In terms of whether the question has been put to the constitutional convention, it has not, so it is not being considered. However, if it were to be considered, the potential exists, perhaps under the consideration of marriage equality, to consider it as a secondary issue because of the marital implications of the scheme as currently proposed by the gender recognition advisory group. It is not stated explicitly as an issue to be considered.

Mr. Broden Giambrone:

I will respond to the question on numbers. It is difficult for us to estimate how many transgender people there are in Ireland. There are a great many reasons for this. People do not come out. There is no formal process for people to come out so we cannot give definitive figures. In the past year, however, more than 600 people have reached out to Transgender Equality Network Ireland, TENI, through our support and information line. In 2011, we know that 300 people went to different support groups throughout Ireland. The way they deduce broader transgender populations in Scotland is that they assume that for every person who goes to a support group, one can multiply that figure by ten. In any case, we are looking at thousands of transgender people. As Irish society becomes more open and more inclusive, more people come out. Anecdotally we know that each year we are being contacted more and more, new groups are being contacted and the support groups are being accessed. It will become more of an issue as time goes by.

The gender recognition advisory group, GRAG, was established and then disbanded. The potential of bringing it back was raised. That is under the Minister's remit. One of our concerns is about the delay. Many of these issues were raised during the process when the gender recognition advisory group invited submissions. If one reads through the GRAG report, the voices that come across most strongly are much more the medical experts - the psychiatrists - who put in submissions. One does not hear the voice of transgender people and their experiences, which is one of the reasons we wanted to have Mr. Darrin Mathews and Ms Victoria Mullin to speak to that. Their voice is important as the legislation will affect people's lives. Many of the issues were raised through the submission's process, both written and oral, and yet they did not make it into the GRAG report. I caution about that danger. It is five years since Dr. Foy won her case and still we are waiting. That is the challenge.

The Minister spoke at the fourth European transgender council that TENI held in September. This was the largest conference for transgender people in Europe. It was quite a big event for us. The Minister indicated that the legislation would come before this committee and there would be opportunities. We would be more than happy to come back at a later date, before the legislation comes up for discussion, because there are more issues to raise. There will be many legal issues to tease out.

There will also be debate in the Seanad, as requested by Senator Katherine Zappone. It was scheduled initially for this year during December or during January, but unfortunately it has been pushed back. We do not have the date. This will give another opportunity for us to tease out some of these issues.

With the permission of the committee, I will pass the question on support to my colleague, Mr. Matthews.

Mr. Darrin Matthews:

I am 22 years old and run the Cork transgender support group. People of all different ages are coming to the support group, but I can definitely say that people are coming out younger and younger. People are now asking questions about their gender before their leaving certificate examination, raising concerns that their results will be issued showing the wrong name and will cause them difficulties when they apply to college or for jobs, as people will know their history. It should not make a difference but people can make a judgment on that in terms of whether a person should be employed or can go to a specific college. As Mr Giambrone said, 600 people went to support groups or accessed TENI last year, but if one multiplies that figure by ten for the number of people who do not, there are 6,000 transgender people.

We recently did a survey that showed that 40% of the people who took this survey attempted suicide. So that is almost 2,500 who attempted suicide. The people who are affected are not only limited to the 2,500 who attempt suicide but also include their families. I have family members who died by suicide. I come from a family who buried somebody who died by suicide. I cannot imagine 2,500 families and groups of friends burying transgender people, because the situation is so dire. We try to do as much as we can in providing support. We meet regularly. We supply phone numbers that people can ring, but if one cannot feel accepted by people and can be discriminated against, how likely is one to access those supports? One can be told one has a psychiatric condition, a mental illness, and this makes people feel helpless. Who will listen to a person who must prove that he or she is not mentally healthy?

Ms Victoria Mullin:

My contribution is not legalistic. I live in the real world. I have my tax practice. I meet my clients every day, half of whom were with me when I transitioned, so they know my history. The other half have come to me since and do not know it. I live a normal life every day. When ever this subject comes up, people do not care. It is the politicians, not necessarily the members at this meeting, who are miles behind people. Most people do not give a hoot. They have enough problems. The budget is an example. They live and let live. Please help us.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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If there is nothing outstanding, I will wrap up the meeting. I thank the representatives of Transgender Equality Network Ireland for their informative presentation which will assist us when we deal with the legislation, as we hope to do at some stage soon. I also thank the witnesses for answering members' questions. We will send a copy of the network's presentation and a transcript of the discussion we have had this afternoon to the Minister. If we get a response from the Minister that updates the current position, we will pass it on to the network.

Joan Collins (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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It was suggested that we could link back in with the network when the legislative process is up and running again. The committee could agree a position at that stage.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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We can do that. Perhaps we will arrange a meeting just before the legislation is introduced.