Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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I welcome Mr. Tom Boland, chief executive, and Mr. Muiris O'Connor, head of policy and planning, Higher Education Authority, Mr. Ned Costello, chief executive, and Mr. Lewis Purser, director of academic affairs, Irish Universities Association, Dr. Brendan Murphy, president of Cork Institute of Technology, Mr. Denis Cummins, president of Dundalk Institute of Technology, and Professor Brian Norton, president of Dublin Institute of Technology. They are present to discuss the skills mismatch between industry requirements and the courses provided by the third level sector with specific reference to information and communications technology, ICT, foreign languages and food production and technology.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that Members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to this committee. If they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in regard to a particular matter and continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise nor make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

I ask Mr. Boland to make his opening remarks, and he is to be followed by Mr. Costello, Dr. Murphy and Professor Norton. Members may ask questions afterwards.

Mr. Tom Boland:

I thank the Chairman for the opportunity to attend today. I am joined by Mr. Muiris O'Connor, head of policy and planning in the Higher Education Authority, HEA. We have provided the committee with a written statement, which I will try to summarise. The HEA fully appreciates the important role the higher education system plays in the economic and social development of Ireland. Particularly given the subject matter of today's discussion, we appreciate the role of the sector in developing Ireland's intellectual resources, especially technological competency and the capacity to innovate.

The responsiveness of the sector to the needs of enterprise generally is well reflected in the breadth of programme provision across higher education from level 6 to level 10 of the national framework of qualifications. As a matter of policy and practice, institutions adapt existing programmes and develop new ones on an ongoing basis in response to student and enterprise demand. All institutions undergo rigorous strategic planning processes involving input from a wide range of stakeholders, including employers. The institutes of technology have a particular role in supporting the business community in tangible and practical ways. Their programmes are closely aligned to the needs of industry. Employers are usually represented on the course development boards.

Without wanting to convey complacency, I believe the higher education system has responded and is responding well to a wide range of skills needs, and has done so down through the years. As a country, however, we need to focus constantly on the outcomes we achieve in the sector and how they address national priorities. It is worth advising some caution. We must not assume that the primary role of the higher education sector is to provide job-ready graduates for enterprise. The danger inherent in that approach is that the skills of our graduates would quickly become obsolete. Given the rapid pace of technological advancement and globalisation within the knowledge economy, the skills needs of industry are continually evolving, particularly in technological domains. The preparation of skilled employees must involve a partnership between higher education and employers. The key requirement of graduates and, consequently, the institutions is core or generic skills in areas such as literacy, numeracy, information processing, communication and creative thinking. The core skills are as important as technical skills or discipline-specific knowledge.

Graduates will also need to forge careers across a range of sectors during their working lives. Therefore, adaptability to change is also a vital quality required of graduates. The role of the employer is to take these graduates and provide them with the next level of education and training appropriate to their industry. The responsiveness of institutions to the evolving skills needs of industry is reflected in academic development and reform through actions such as the increasing modularisation and semesterisation of courses at undergraduate level, leading to greater opportunities for interdisciplinary study. At postgraduate level, the rolling out of structured PhDs and other developments, such as a graduate research education programme, is facilitating the provision of research and soft skills training and the direct involvement of industry partners in programme delivery. The importance of original research and innovation to economic renewal is understood by all in higher education.

The responsiveness of the higher education system is also reflected in the Springboard programmes and the ICT skills conversion programmes. Launched in 2011, Springboard provides higher education opportunities from NFQ levels 6 to 10 on a free-fee basis to unemployed people in areas of employment growth. Building on the success of the 2011 programme, which provided almost 6,000 free places in higher education institutes across the country, the 6,000 places on the 220 courses offered in 2012 will help to address skills deficits across a broad spectrum of enterprise sectors, including ICT and others, as listed in my statement.

I will conclude my opening remarks with specific comments on the three areas of skills needs that the committee identified in its invitation to today's discussion.

With regard to information communications technology, ICT, we recognise the deficit in graduates with high level ICT skills within Ireland and internationally and the importance of these opportunities for the advancement of Ireland’s national enterprise strategy. We are greatly encouraged by the recent trends in the demand for ICT programmes from students and more broadly in science, technology, engineering and mathematics, STEM, through the Central Applications Office, CAO, system, and these trends are outlined in more detail in the written submission.

In support of these positive trends, the ICT action plan launched in January 2012 represents a whole-of-government response to addressing the deficit in ICT skills in which the higher education sector is playing a key role. As part of the implementation of the plan, a key target of which is to double the number of ICT graduates by 2018, the ICT skills programme of the HEA is supporting the delivery in partnership with industry of 23 new one-year graduate conversion courses in ICT, providing 818 free places on courses offered by 16 higher education providers. Featuring accredited work placements, these courses are equipping graduates with core computing and programming skills as well as with a range of specialisations in niche areas of growth potential such as cloud computing and web development.

In light of the high demand for places on these courses, I am delighted to inform members, if they are not aware of the development, that at the end of last week, the HEA and the Department of Education and Skills issued a call for proposals for further courses to be provided under the ICT skills programme in 2013. This places a strong emphasis on the quality of industry-academic partnership in the design, development and delivery of programmes. In the context of today's discussion, this is a really positive development.

The HEA’s Springboard initiative, in which one third of all places are on ICT courses, is also having a positive impact on the supply of ICT graduates. To date, there have been 750 graduates from ICT courses at NFQ levels 6 to 9, with a further 2,000 ICT graduates expected before the end of 2012 and during 2013. A review and report on early employment outcomes is under way in respect of those who have graduated thus far and will be available shortly.

On foreign languages, vital importance for the economy of enhancing our skills base in foreign languages is acknowledged but is less well understood in terms of student demand patterns. We have seen modest growth in undergraduate enrolments in foreign languages taken as a single subject in the period between 2007 and 2010 and we understand that modularisation and semesterisation of undergraduate programmes is increasing the opportunities for students across all disciplines to study a foreign language as an accredited part of their degree. The HEA is undertaking research to establish a comprehensive and accurate picture of all foreign language programme provision in Irish higher education. Preliminary results of this research indicate that European languages, as well as Chinese and Japanese, are studied as a component of a very broad range of disciplines across business, the arts, the humanities and the sciences. Rather than being the primary focus of study, they comprise parts of other programmes. The priority will be to mobilise student demand for the language learning opportunities that increasingly are available.

On food production and technology, as indicated in the report by the expert group on future skills needs, Key Skills for Enterprise to Trade Internationally, the food and beverage sector is key to Ireland’s economic growth. This is reflected in the wide range of undergraduate and postgraduate courses in food production and technology that are offered at NFQ levels 6 to 10 across universities and institutes of technology in Ireland. These all have benefitted from the growing demand for science and technology programmes in Irish higher education. In addition, a number of part-time courses in the area are being provided through Springboard 2012, building on the 247 places allocated in 2011. A total of 125 people graduated in the summer of 2012 from Springboard food and beverage courses, with a similar number completing courses and due to graduate before the end of 2012 and during 2013.

To remain reasonably within time, I will truncate my remarks by stating we anticipate the national strategy for higher education, the implementation of which the HEA now is leading, will lead to greater effectiveness overall in the higher education sector and particularly in respect of having the higher education sector deliver on major strategic national objectives. I wish to mention one relevant point. In the concluding paragraph of my written opening statement, I note that engagement, together with teaching as well as learning and research, is one of the three pillars on which the national strategy is based. This is engagement in its widest sense but engagement with enterprise is a key element. Recognising this, within the next week I will appoint from within the HEA's current resources a senior member of staff to take a lead role in enterprise-higher education liaison. The key focus of the role will be to develop an overarching HEA strategy for engagement with specific reference to engagement with the enterprise business sectors to promote proactively the enterprise engagement strategy within the HEA, to support the creation of an enhanced level of understanding of enterprise needs and to promote proactively the enterprise engagement strategy in the higher education system as a whole for the purpose of achieving identified outcomes. I apologise to the Chair if I have overstayed my welcome.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Boland certainly has not, which members appreciate and for which I thank him. He need not worry as I would tell him if he did so. I invite Mr. Costello to make his opening remarks.

Mr. Ned Costello:

I thank the joint committee for the invitation to discuss these important issues relating to skills in ICT, foreign languages and food production and technology. I also thank the joint committee for its recent review of ICT skills demand, the launch of which I had the opportunity to attend a few weeks ago. In preparing for this meeting with colleagues, we were conscious of the need to avoid excessive duplication in our submissions to the joint committee and, therefore, in the accompanying Irish Universities Association, IUA, submission, we thought it would be helpful to begin by considering the general labour market position, both overall and on a sectoral level. In this regard, I am particularly grateful to my colleagues in the FÁS skills and labour market research unit, who are responsible for the publication, Monitoring Ireland's Skills Supply.

The enterprise needs into which the joint committee is inquiring span industry and services and these sectors are of enormous importance in GDP and exporting terms. While by and large, they are characterised by high levels of productivity, it must be remarked that such growing productivity, combined with the effects of the recession, in some respects militates against their employment performance.

In that regard, employment in the industrial sector declined at an average of 4.6% per annum, with total employment contracting by 61,000 in the period since 2006. That is the overall sectoral position but within that picture, however, there are positive signs. In particular, employment in the food and beverages industry recently has bucked the trend by expanding by 13% between 2010 and 2011. Likewise, employment in medium to high technology manufacturing expanded by 4.6%, albeit that the pure high technology employment figure did not fare quite as well. Clearly, the labour market in the sector remains somewhat volatile. Employment in knowledge intensive services, the complement to manufacturing, performed better overall, with total employment averaging 815,000 in 2011 and growing by an average of 1.2% per annum since 2006.

If one turns to ICT specifically, the segment performed better than the overall sector average, growing employment by 1.5% per annum on average. However, there has been a notable increase in employment recently in that the sector added 6,000 jobs between 2010 and 2011. This was an increase of 8.5%, which clearly is an improvement on the historical trend. From previous experience, which is relevant to matching skills supply and educational output, it is known that the ICT sector can be both volatile and cyclical. Therefore, it is difficult to state whether the current highly encouraging increases in employment represent a genuine deflection point in the curve of growth and whether this upward trend will continue, but of course we are optimistic that it will.

A challenge for both industry and the higher education sector is the interface between skills and labour shortages. In this regard, in the sectors under review, it is likely that the shortages are a mix of the two. Our submission refers to the various vacancy surveys, which indicate that employers frequently seek staff with both a minimum of two years' experience and specific skills, which can be in quite narrow sub-disciplinary areas of technology. This brings into focus the importance of conversion courses, to which Mr. Boland referred, part-time education and internships, and that there are more routes into such jobs than simply directly from third level.

Before speaking in detail about education outputs in their specific sectors, I refer to section 4 of our submission, in which we provide a breakdown of employment by sector and both enrolments and graduations by discipline. This was supplied to demonstrate the function of higher education is to meet the overall skills needs of the economy. In that regard, it can be seen from the tables contained in the submission that the sectoral make-up of employment is quite well matched by a similar diversity in the overall intake and output of higher education.

However, reverting to sectoral issues, there are strong levels of participation in science, mathematics and computing, as well as in engineering, which make up 18% and 8%, respectively, of the total undergraduate enrolments. At postgraduate level, computer science as a discipline accounts for 31% of total full-time science, mathematics and computing enrolments. In meeting the skills needs of the economy, there are elements of push and pull at work, in the sense that increased labour market demand influences student choice and, at the same time, increasing supply can have a positive momentum in the creation of new firms and new jobs. In the latter regard, we refer in our submission to the increase of 63% in Central Applications Office science, technology, mathematics and engineering applications between 2008 and 2012.

We also refer to how investments in research in the education sphere are paying off. This is reflected in an increase of almost 2,000 in the numbers of researchers working in business between 2001 and 2009. That is the latest data we have. The success of the national research and innovation strategy is also reflected in the growing proportion of new FDI projects in the research space and the expansion of Irish multinationals, such as the Kerry Group's recent announcement of a major research and development project to be located in the Naas region. These efforts will be further focused by the outworking of the research prioritisation exercise and we reflect that in the submission.
In terms of meeting future skills demands of the economy in the technology sector, we place particular emphasis on the importance of mathematics as a foundation discipline and we refer in our submission to the importance of bonus points for mathematics in increasing the uptake of mathematics and increasing attainment in the leaving certificate on foot of it.
As regards the languages issue, it is more difficult to pin down than ICT skills which map well to individual disciplines in higher education and lend themselves to the kind of initiatives that are now being pursued under the ICT action plan. This has surfaced in the EGFSN skills for trade report, on which we are actively engaging with the universities.
Encouragingly, because of modularisation it is likely that there is more exposure on the part of students to language education than the EGFSN report may have been able to capture when it was undertaken. It is also worth noting that HEA data from 2007-10 show a welcome 12.9% increase in undergraduate student enrolments in foreign languages, where these are taken as full degree programmes. This is despite stagnating or decreasing number of students taking foreign languages during the same period for the leaving certificate. Clearly, that is a pipeline issue that needs to be addressed.
Finally on this topic, we also refer to the importance of internationalisation in higher education. This encompasses foreign students studying in Ireland and also study abroad by Irish students. I might mention a development that has happened since we made our submission. We are concerned about the increase in the visa charge which was announced recently by the GNIB. The doubling of that charge will not do anything for our competitiveness in the international education market.
I am conscious of time, so I would like to conclude by referring briefly to the issue of broad skills. We refer in our submission to the industry round table, which is a high level reflection of the constant interaction between the universities and industry in identifying matters of common concern and addressing them. Our submission includes a progress report from the last round table meeting.
One issue that arises regularly is the importance of transversal skills such as creativity and problem solving. In this regard, it is vital that education does not become overly instrumentalist and narrow. This was a concern raised with us by the Minister for Education and Skills when he asked us to look at selection and entry mechanisms for higher education. As part of that work we are looking at how common entry routes to university can be expanded, both to broaden the first year experience and also to facilitate upstream change in the leaving certificate. For balance, we are also looking at whether we can better incentivise strategically important subjects going beyond what we have done with bonus points for maths. We are therefore looking both at the broad and the specific. In that regard, we will be reporting to the Minister on those issues by year end.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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Thank you, Mr. Costello. I should add that we will have the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Quinn, and the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, Deputy Bruton, before the committee next week to discuss the same topic. We can raise the issues with them then. Following Mr. Costello's comments, we might invite the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Shatter, to attend also.

Our next contribution is from Dr. Brendan Murphy, president of Cork Institute of Technology, on behalf of the Institutes of Technology Ireland, IOTI.

Dr. Brendan Murphy:

I wish to thank the Chairman and other members of the joint committee for the invitation to participate in today's discussion. With me today is Mr. Denis Cummins, president of Dundalk Institute of Technology.

At the outset, we compliment the joint committee, and particularly Senator Clune, for its work in reviewing the information and communication technology skills demand. I intend to keep our opening remarks quite short and would point out that the institutes of technology have a stronger presence in STEM subjects - that is science, technology, engineering and maths - than in languages and food production which are mentioned in the committee's invitation.

When IOTI met with the committee around this time last year, we gave a comprehensive overview of the work we were undertaking to try better to match skills supply with skills demand. As a member of the Forfás expert group on future skills needs, I am also conscious of the significant contribution of the work of that group to this important debate.

Whilst today's discussion will understandably focus on ICT skills gaps and how best to address them, we should not lose sight of the positives. The fact is that, today, the ICT industry in Ireland employs over 90,000 people and the top ten technology companies in the world have a base here. Those companies say they are not here just for the favourable corporation tax rate or EU market access. Collectively, Ireland is doing quite a lot right but we should always be conscious that we can and must continually improve.

I will cite an example of some of the improvements that have been made since we last met the committee, involving my own institution, Cork Institute of Technology. In 2011, CIT initiated the first masters degree in cloud computing in the world and we have just produced our first 65 graduates in that discipline. The success of this programme has meant that it is oversubscribed both nationally and internationally. When I say internationally, we have had students from Russia, India, America and China. Not only is the programme's subject matter cloud computing, but it is also delivered by the cloud even to the stage where the labs are virtualised.

Critically important, however, is the fact that the programme was developed and continues to evolve in collaboration with the EMC corporate centres of excellence worldwide, so that it remains a high quality, relevant and state-of-the-art programme. The lecturers are drawn not only from academia in Ireland and abroad but also from the industry. The students are attracted by the fact that a state-of-the-art programme is being delivered here.

Similarly, in response to the twin issues of a shortage of graduates in IT with language skills, Dundalk lnstitute of Technology has developed an honours degree programme to produce software professionals who have a high level of proficiency in French.

The committee's ICT report highlights many of the issues which the institutes of technology encounter on a daily basis. We agree with the conclusion in the committee's report that it is crucial to bring a greater understanding of ICT, and in particular ICT as a career choice, to the second-level classroom and curriculum. For a long time now, we have been cognisant of this vital link and the institutes have many initiatives in this area. Perhaps the most notable of these initiatives right now is the CoderDojo movement, which is supported and hosted by institutes of technology around the country. While these initiatives are important, they are no replacement for the integration of ICT, and computer programming in particular, into the formal curriculum. The IOTI would support and facilitate any such initiative.

We also believe that there is a constant need to devote attention and resources to the continued professional development of teachers in the use of ICT in teaching many subjects. In referring to continued professional development we are not talking about the development of content. There is plenty of content. We are talking about the delivery by teachers to students, not just a once-off course but continuing professional development.

ICT is a broad field and careers in ICT are many and varied. They range from multi-media and design through to support and administration, management and strategy, and software engineering to name just a few. It would be misleading to give the impression that a very high level of mathematical competence is a prerequisite for all, or even most, ICT careers. However, there are fundamental building blocks of knowledge which are common to the fields of mathematics and ICT, including problem synthesis and problem solving. This is why IOTI broadly supports the direction being taken by the project maths initiative, which primarily focuses on developing the students' skillsets in these fundamental areas.

As well as improving ICT literacy, the institutes believe it is important that second-level students are given a sense of what a career in ICT could entail. To this end, we have sponsored and brokered enterprise-to-school relationships allowing second-level students to tour ICT facilities and bringing ICT professionals - very often our graduates - into schools to speak to students.

A related area of activity concerns the many ICT entrepreneurship and innovation competitions run by institutes of technology for second-level schools and students. These serve the twin purpose of improving ICT skills as well as giving the student a sense of what it would be like to be an ICT professional.

Turning to the recruitment of school-leavers into third-level ICT courses, the figures still remain relatively low in comparison with the high water mark of the mid to late 1990s. In the last five years, however, we have seen a 40% increase in the numbers undertaking studies in ICT-related programmes. Past experience has also shown us that this increase will result in a more engaged and committed cohort of students, and this will ultimately lead to improved retention and completion rates.

As well as the standard cohort of school leavers, all the institutes have been active in providing accessible and flexible programme delivery to encourage a broad range of non-standard students to pursue information and communication technology, ICT, programmes. The committee earlier heard about the Springboard programme run by the Higher Education Authority. One useful and productive initiative is the ICT skills level 8 conversion programme which commenced this year and is in the middle of its first cycle. This programme provides the opportunity for professionals and graduates who already have a level 8 degree in a discipline other than ICT to improve their skills by providing them with a level 8 qualification in ICT. Nationwide, there are more than 700 students enrolled in these programmes and there is significant unmet demand from prospective students for additional places and courses.

In general, these students are above average in their commitment and motivation, leading to positive outcomes in programme completion and employability after graduation. These conversion programmes were built with the ICT industry, which also provided many internships. Many of these internships are now turning into permanent jobs. It has been a success for students coming off the live register, taking a course and securing employment at the end.

Another good example is the programme in Dundalk Institute of Technology which specialises in the area of health care computing. This programme was developed in consultation with the medical device industry. This industry is cognisant of the safety-critical nature of medical device software and the ongoing requirement for graduates who are well versed in highly effective software practices. We believe the proposed graduate skills conversion programme will be equally successful in providing similar reskilling opportunities to a different cohort of students. We encourage the roll-out of this initiative as soon as possible. Initiatives such as these have the highest potential for addressing skill shortages in the ICT industries in the short to medium term. We would encourage not only their continuation but their expansion.

We thank the committee for its work on the ICT skills issue and we are very happy to participate in today's discussion.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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Our final presentation is from Professor Brian Norton, president of the Dublin Institute of Technology, DIT. I apologise for leaving him until last.

Professor Brian Norton:

DIT’s origins 130 years ago arose from a meeting on unmet skills needs then. Meeting skills continues to be our tradition to this day. We see it as part of a continuum of creating new industries and supplying those who work in them. Appendix 3 of our submission lists 57 businesses that have come out of technology transfer activities in DIT, meaning we are intimately related to them. In every programme we initiate, there is industry participation in its development and ongoing revalidation. Industry and professional bodies are embedded in the creation of our programmes, particularly in those we deliver through Skillnets and Springboard. We also validate the programmes of other providers such as IBEC’s CPD diploma in management and the Digital Skills Academy CPD diploma in digital media production.

We will accelerate these developments in our new campus in Grangegorman where we will have much more opportunity for bringing these activities together. This will allow us to develop new provision in ICT, as well as languages and food technology. This will also see more cross-disciplinary work. We have a strong corporate partnership network. My office is directly charged with ensuring DIT has links at the highest levels with major employers. The focus of the corporate partnership network is the tourism, energy and ICT sectors.

ICT makes up 50% of courses at DIT and it accounts for 24% of the national overall ICT programme total, which makes us a significant provider. There are 2,000 students registered on ICT-related programmes coming out of the Springboard initiative. These are construction people converting their quantity surveyor or building project management skills, for example, into skills for the ICT sector. Our masters programme in software development is organised with Ericsson and its 50 graduates are guaranteed jobs with the company. Again, some of these people came from the construction sector. Our international ICT sales programme, which has been generously supported by Enterprise Ireland, has had 500 graduates, many of whom are working in the ICT sales sector. DIT is also an international leader in digital marketing.

We have 1,200 students in food production technology courses covering disciplines such as culinary arts as well as food engineering and the development of food manufacturing processes. We also have a programme in food product development funded by Springboard. One of the skills deficiencies identified in the food production technology area is supply-chain management or getting the product to market. We have very strong programmes in this area with over 270 students enrolled in them. DIT is also the home of the National Institute for Transport and Logistics. Since we sent in our submission, the Positive2Work Skillnet, which is made up of small to medium-sized enterprises in the retail and food sector, is concluding discussions with us to offer a CPD diploma in logistics, supply chain and supervisory management for 30 students, which will be made up of employees in the food industry, with a route on to the part-time masters in business studies we offer. Another development in the food industry is the movement towards nutraceuticals. There are many highly developed companies in this area already in Ireland and DIT provides a BSc in nutraceuticals with over 100 students.

The teaching of foreign languages is embedded in many of our programmes. In DIT, a practically oriented institution, a language is a prerequisite for all 2,500 students; the languages include Italian, French, Spanish, German, Chinese, Irish and English. Many of the programmes have been developed to ensure students spend a semester abroad studying. For example, Irish students will learn Chinese in China for a year as part of a programme of international business and Chinese.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the delegation for those presentations.

Deirdre Clune (Fine Gael)
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I thank the delegates for their presentations. The committee is interested in ICT skills and many of the institutes assisted in preparing a report for the committee on this area. The ICT action plan is welcome and is well regarded by industry. The conversion courses are doing very well and it is encouraging that Mr. Boland said these would expand. As Dr. Murphy said, those who take on these courses are very committed.

It is very positive. Certainly, the committee intends to keep that to the fore and examine it regularly.

The committee is looking at this area to gauge the interaction between industry and higher education. I accept there must be education in a broad sense as well as giving students the capability to think for themselves and perhaps change their career path as they go through life. When the expert group on future skills needs was before the committee to discuss ICT, it pointed to languages and the food sector. In the foreign language area, PayPal stated it could not get the graduate skills it needed in this country. The expert group stated we should have a foreign language policy across all education sectors. Does anybody care to comment on that? Would they agree? I accept that languages are difficult to extract but, none the less, it arises time and again that the lack of foreign languages among graduates is an important issue.

In the food and drink sector, we received a submission recently in which it was stated the author had to fly to Heathrow, take a room there and interview applicants because he could not get the necessary skills in this country. In 2009, the expert group to which I referred outlined in a report on the food and drink sector that the deficit in skills was in supply chain management, operative skills, commercial acumen and innovation - many of the types of skills mentioned today. In the report, the group called for the establishment of an inter-agency, third level institute and industry forum to discuss and address the ongoing skills, trading and development needs of the industry. Has that been put in place? There is much information from and engagement between those in industry, and that would help as well. There are others who have questions as well, but perhaps the witnesses would address those areas.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the various groups and I compliment Senator Clune on the work that she is doing in this area. I got a sense from the four presentations that those most connected to this problem and most connected to business are the institutes of technology, ITs, that is, Dr. Murphy, Mr. Cummins and their colleagues. Even from their presentation, they seemed to hit on exactly the areas at which the committee is looking.

I have a couple of questions. First, to all of those present, a key issue is guidance at second level in order that students are fully prepared and given the appropriate information at second level before they even get to the ITs. What are their thoughts about the changes and the cuts to guidance provision and does it have the potential to exacerbate the problem with skills?

On my concern about complacency, I welcome the appointment of the enterprise liaison person, but it is November 2012. Is Mr. Boland telling the committee that the HEA had not even thought before 2012 that it might be handy or worthwhile to have an enterprise liaison person, and if not, why? We are almost five years into the crisis and enterprise is supposed to be at the heart of the rebirth, regardless of politics. The HEA is only now making that appointment, welcome as it is. Where has it been? Who has had that function for the past five years?

Mr. Boland commented that the ITs had responded well. How many places in the HEA and IT system were construction related in 2007 and how many are construction related today?

On foreign languages, the expert group highlighted a concern about an anticipated lack of suitable candidates in languages. Surely, we should have seen this coming. Some of the languages they cite are European languages. Twenty years ago, in various referenda, we were told we all had to learn German. They are citing a shortage of proficient German speakers. We are talking not only about Chinese or the languages of the BRIC countries but also about traditional European trading languages. What exactly are those present doing in that regard and how did a situation arise where language deficiency was the cause in many cases for 500 of 1,000 jobs having to be filled from outside the jurisdiction? There is a preference for native speakers, but surely we cannot have that.

What interaction do the groups have with IDA Ireland on its work? When IDA Ireland is out pitching this country, does it engage with them at any level on the skills they can provide? If IDA Ireland is pitching Ireland as a destination, can it tell from the HEA, the Irish Universities Association, the DIT or the ITs what exactly is in the system?

The institutes of technology sector seems to be the one sector which is on top of the issue about which we are concerned. In a previous committee, we visited Dundalk to look at the work Dundalk Institute of Technology was doing in renewables. That was four years ago and Dundalk was ahead of the curve then. I am well aware of IT Sligo and GMIT. They are so ahead of the curve. Athlone IT has a fantastic course, which I gather is about to be pulled because of lack of funding, that allows electricians who are no longer in demand to convert their skills to manufacturing positions. There is nearly 100% employment out of that course and they are concerned about the funding of it. I say to the IT sector to keep at it because it seems to be on top of it. Perhaps the others could learn from the IT sector in terms of its connectivity with industry.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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I also welcome the witnesses. I also commend Senator Clune on her work in this area on what is now, I suppose, an all-party report on this issue. I thank Senator Clune for her contribution and lead on the issue.

To put the matter in context, between quarter one of 2007 and quarter one of 2012, the economy of the State lost in excess of 300,000 jobs. That is where we need look. Sometimes we can look at issues as a panacea and, while obviously important, they are not a panacea. Having said that, the information and communications technology industry gained 9,200 jobs over that period and now employs more than 75,000. As a sector, it is still the second smallest employment sector and employs 4.2% of all employees. When one sets that against agriculture, forestry and fishing, where 27,000 jobs have been lost, it provides the context.

We all would accept that there is a need to grow all sectors of the economy and to tackle structural employment and growing levels of unemployment. No doubt long-term unemployment is a big issue. Some 60% of those unemployed have been out of work for over a year. It strikes me that most of the focus, at least from the bodies, is on degree level and research and development. That is okay, but not all jobs in the agrifood sector or even the ICT sector require degree level intervention. We need to look at re-skilling and the unemployed. The committee visited Waterford a couple of days ago and heard from the city enterprise board about FETAC level courses, for example, in the horticulture sector. We need to look at a swathe of persons who are long-term unemployed, who have skills and in whose case it is merely about re-skilling, and not necessarily about degrees.

I refer to the all-island potential here as well. It is obvious the skills within the ICT language sector are highly mobile. There is obviously an all-island labour market because we are an island, but there is limited funding to all third level institutions across the island. What steps are the third level institutions in the State taking to develop all-island approaches to skills shortages in both jurisdictions to ensure we make best use of resources?

On early development of language and ICT skills, the institutions of technology submissions look at the development of skills within second level. This is something on which we spoke to Senator Clune in the formulation of her report. What is the role of the third level sector in supporting teaching skills in curriculum development within primary and second school? When one looks at ICT, STEM and language skills developments, I am somebody who started off very young with computers. I started off with the Commodore 64 and worked my way up, I assume, the same as many others in this room.

Dr. Murphy referred to CoderDojo, which is a very good concept. We would like to see ICT as a curriculum issue at second level.

To put the issue in a wider context, certain regions of the State - the south east being a good example - were heavily dependent on manufacturing over a period of 30 to 40 years. There was little incentive for a young person growing up 30 years ago to remain in school or continue to college because he or she could, for example, get a job in Waterford Crystal or the foundry. There was little focus on developing opportunities in terms of skills and training. That needs to change because we are in a completely different space and we have to start in primary and secondary schools. I am a great believer in innovation, creative thinking and thinking outside the box. Third level is important but students at primary and second levels have to be given the space and encouragement to get there. How can the third level sector assist in making that a reality?

Professor Brian Norton:

On the food side, we have strong engagement with the food industry through Skillnets and we work with it to develop programmes. I presume this co-operation is the outworking of earlier decisions as to what skills would be needed. We have existing provisions in management of technology and innovation and new programmes are coming on stream in the area of logistics and supply chain management.

It is important that appropriate guidance be provided at second level but how best to provide it is a decision that needs to be taken in the context of second level education overall. Whether it should involve one set of guidance counsellors or permeate the curriculum more broadly is a moot question because if one corrals guidance to one area it does not permeate the curriculum. The curriculum should set subject context and application. One application of knowledge is career development. We also need a much broader range of guidance because often the reason individuals pursue certain careers is because of role models, including parents, uncles and brothers. That can have as great an influence on where people study as formal guidance.

In terms of links with the IDA and Enterprise Ireland, we offer a number of programmes for Enterprise Ireland and are actively involved in our technology transfer programme. We have strong engagement with inward investors through IDA and organisations like the American Chamber of Commerce and other chambers of commerce in respect of construction programmes. Companies actively participate in the committees that work on the inception and development of new programmes. It is a critical part of our work. No programme exists in DIT unless there is demand for it.

On the broader issue of employment, issues arise in terms of addressing social and educational disadvantage which can appear at a wide variety of points in life. These issues are not simply confined to teenagers but discussing them would take more time than is available to us. I draw members' attention to our mature student access programme, which assists those who would not normally expect to participate in higher education. We currently fund the programme by recycling the resources we obtain from international students. Previously it was supported by philanthropy. The programme has not been a burden on the State, therefore. It gives access to courses at a variety of levels and enables students to find their own levels. It is oriented towards a redirection and reinvigoration of where people are coming from.

The numbers involved in the built environment programme has decreased by approximately 700 in the past several years. DIT is the largest provider of built environment education in the State.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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What does that figure involve?

Professor Brian Norton:

I refer to the number of students studying through four years plus masters programmes. The number of places at the beginning of courses probably decreased by 120. Other institutions have ceased entirely to provide such programmes and we are one of a limited number of providers in certain areas, such as architecture. The growth in ICT and food is comparable with the decrease in built environment. There has been a shift from areas in decline to subjects growing in popularity.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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Is it a like for like shift? DIT has not increased availability in growing sectors.

Professor Brian Norton:

Yes. Essentially what has happened is a growth in the sciences, particularly ICT and related areas, and the food sector, alongside a decline in the built environment sector. They would not exactly match at any snapshot in time but that is the broad trend for DIT.

Mr. Tom Boland:

Senator Clune asked about the connection between higher education and enterprise and how one could know what the other was doing. It is a complex issue, to state the obvious. My experience in the Higher Education Authority suggests that, by and large, if the demand exists the higher education system will meet it, whether in one or multiple institutions. ICT is a good example of this. During the slowdown in demand for ICT skills, the system left in place a large part of the infrastructure which meant the institutions were ready to respond quickly when demand picked up again. In respect of languages, there is little point in the institutions providing places by themselves if there is insufficient demand elsewhere. Senator Cullinane spoke about a whole of education approach. In that context, the issue of guidance is important. I cannot comment on the cuts because I do not know enough about them but getting information to young people and, more importantly, their parents on potential opportunities is important in these disciplines. I do not want to be overly confident but there are positive signs in the ICT area. Judging by the growth in demand the message that good careers can be developed appears to be reaching home. A similar exercise needs to be done in regard to languages but it is probably a slow process. It is a question of taking a whole of education approach. Overall, the higher education system tends to be flexible in responding to emerging needs.

In regard to the implied criticism of the HEA's efforts on enterprise liaison, it would be fair to criticise us if we had done nothing before now. In fact, however, the HEA is represented on the expert group for future skills and we have a close relationship with IBEC, with which we are developing a national employer survey. We also manage the ICT skills conversion, Springboard, courses and we invest considerably in the higher education system through the programme for research in third level institutions, PRTI, and the Irish Research Council. A considerable amount of work is both informed by and supportive of enterprise. I envisage that in our new role we will have an even bigger impact on this area by bringing it together in a more co-ordinated way. Rather than inventing something that is entirely new we are trying to increase our impact.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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To what extent will this work be exposed to real business people? The representative associations are all very fine - I used to work for one - but they are not at the coal face. Education needs to benefit from experience at the coal face.

Mr. Tom Boland:

One of the approaches I intend to adopt in that respect is to engage people at the coalface with the HEA because the Deputy is correct that the person who will be appointed to the position will be a public servant from within the organisation. I have no capacity to appoint an external person. However, the way to embrace their direct knowledge is to bring the direct knowledge into the HEA, and we have a plan in that regard.

The Deputy also mentioned IDA Ireland's involvement and how it engages. The IDA and Enterprise Ireland were closely involved in the design of the ICT call and they also have advised on internships for higher education students. They are very much involved in that area.

I will get the Deputy the figures on construction workers; I do not have them with me. Mr. O'Connor will deal with the industry forum Senator Clune raised.

Dr. Muiris O'Connor:

An ICT foresight group involving industry and academics is overseeing the implementation of the ICT action plan. There is not an equivalent group in the food and drinks sector but we are aware of the employment opportunities in that industry through their feeding into the Expert Group on Future Skills Needs. Those opportunities featured in and informed the allocations under Springboard where there are many opportunities for skills conversion and training at levels and in skills relevant to those industries. We are also confident the growing appetite for science, technology and engineering courses reflected in the CAO will provide sustainable workers for the food industry and the opportunities that will exist in the coming years.

Mr. Ned Costello:

In answer to Deputy Calleary's question, I said in my opening statement that we were anxious to ensure complementarity and, therefore, I did not got into specific initiative type examples, but that is not because they do not exist. In the submission, we mentioned, for example, the DCU enterprise computing initiative, which addresses a specific skills need in a particular computing area. Those examples are found in institutions generally, including computer summer schools for secondary school pupils. There is also strong participation in the CoderDojo movement. It is not a purely IT event and the first Galway event was held recently with a huge attendance. We are fully involved in the ICT action plan in the same way as the institutes of technology.

However, it is important we have diversity in the higher education system. A central plank of the higher education strategy is that all institutions should not look like all other institutions and there is an orientation within the university system towards level 9 and level 10 complementing undergraduate education. That is of huge importance to the technology sector and the future of the country because, in recent years, a significant proportion of IDA foreign direct investment, FDI, projects have been in the research area, not just in technology industries that have a research component but in pure research and development projects. We are active across all the major sectors. The SFI CSET programme and the Tyndall Institute in UCC are critical components in embedding and expanding those industries in Ireland.

We attempted to show in the submission that much of what goes on in the technology sector is churn and change and that happens constantly. At an individual institutional level, there is huge day-to-day contact between companies and people at the coalface who design and deliver programmes. Much of that happens through the research and commercialisation interface. That is one of the major areas. It is not only down to FDI because we have the EI technology centres as well, where groups of companies come together to define a technology need with ITs and universities and address it. There is a rich web of interactions. The people who come to our university-industry round table are chief executive officers and other senior figures within the industrial sector. They are not the representatives of the industry representatives associations. They talk to us directly about their priority needs.

I will not comment on the policy regarding the guidance issue because it is a policy decision taken by the Department in the context of resources. It is clear that the strongest driver of educational provision is the labour market. As Mr. Boland said, our education system is good at equilibrating supply and demand and when the labour market wants something, students and their parents, who are the main guidance counsellors, vote with their feet and there is a change in behaviour. That is occurring now in the technology sector, but there will be always be an element of friction in the system. There is an effect where a demand emerges and, for example, there is a quick increase in employment in the ICT sector but there is inevitably an element of frictional lag before the system catches up. Sometimes that works the other way and there is an overshoot, as happened during the dotcom bust when significant provision was laid on in response to a major acceleration in demand before the labour market opportunities dried up and we were left with many people on courses for whom there were no jobs. One can never get this mathematically right but the rebalancing of construction skills with ICT skills is happening across the system as a whole and, therefore, provision responds flexibly and dynamically, but there will be narrow instances of specific skills needs and we have to hone in on them and find ways to address them.

Dr. Brendan Murphy:

I thank Senator Clune and Deputy Calleary for their kind words and their engagement. In some ways, we are always surprised because we regard engagement as built into the DNA of ITs. It is what we are supposed to do and what we hope we do. We recognise teaching and learning, innovation, research and engagement with industry at all levels. People have concentrated on the level 8 conversion but we operate at all levels from level 6, the higher certificate, up to level 10.

With regard to active engagement with industry, industry engages with us in course development, updating and developing new courses, providing lecturers in specialised areas where we may not have that specialisation, and providing work placements and internships, as we have seen in many of the conversion programmes. It is a co-ordinated effort, part of which is linked back to the IDA, because we are conscious that we are part of the IDA's mission to go out, sell and attract. All of us tend to work with regional IDA offices, which are intimately familiar with what we can do. If there is a good prospect, we will discuss with officials how we can upskill, train and supply what is needed. That has worked successfully, as evidenced by FDI.

As industry and ICT, in particular, has become more sophisticated, that engagement has changed from upskilling, continuing professional development and providing new graduates to innovation and research. Nowadays, the forefront of research very often is not within higher education in ICT, it is within the industry itself. The industry operates on much different timescales.

It is also much more protective of its intellectual property so it cannot be measured by the research metrics of publication, etc., and we are very conscious of that.

We are cognisant that we will offer the skills programmes at level 6 and will also work with our further education suppliers in order to allow people to progress from FETAC into higher education as such. With the development of SOLAS and with the education and training boards we will see a much closer progression as such built. However, it does exist and should exist.

On the question of guidance counsellors, as with the HEA, one does not like to be drawn into another sector and making comments and criticisms. Members will see from our presentation that we were very conscious that guidance counsellors can describe what an ICT career is like, but getting the student to go out and see what an ICT environment means. Having professionals from the ICT industry come into the schools is the best way to supplement real guidance. It is impractical to expect any guidance counsellor to be an expert in the myriad of careers that students may progress to pursue.

Like DIT, CIT would be a big provider to people to the construction area. The Deputy is correct in pointing to a 50% to 60% fall-off in entry the construction programmes. Internally we are trying to maintain those programmes because as the Deputy mentioned, there could be shortages down the road. Closing programmes is not an option and is not a sensible long-term strategy, so we want to stay there. We also have to deal with redeploying our staff. As I am sure many other institutions have done, we have gone into the area of sustainable technologies and energy which are quite closely related to construction on the basis that there will be an industry demand for refit. We try to redeploy and we have also tried to stay there because we believe there will be shortages in the longer term.

I will ask my colleague to comment on the language issues and the all-Ireland issues.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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I also asked about primary and secondary school curriculum development in the ICT area. Would the witnesses welcome the possibility of introducing a dedicated subject in secondary schools?

Dr. Brendan Murphy:

As we outlined in the presentation, they are no replacement for the integration of ICT and computer programming, in particular, into the formal curriculum and I believe all the institutions would support that. It is no longer just a skill, but a fundamental part of any student's education. For students becoming an adult and surviving regardless of where their careers take them, we are firmly of the belief it needs formal inclusion in the curriculum.

Mr. Denis Cummins:

I wish to add to Dr. Murphy's comments on how the institutes engage with industry. In his opening comments Dr. Murphy gave the example of Dundalk Institute of Technology, where we developed a programme in computing for the health-care industry. We have industry advisory boards that operate at the level of programme boards. We have also identified other potential ICT programmes in areas such as green computing, computing for the aviation industry, ambient computing and specialist computing for the entertainment industries. They came as a result of the direct engagement we had.

Senator Clune and Deputy Calleary asked about languages. It is true that the numbers applying to do language options are very small in our colleges. As Mr. Boland mentioned, they tend to be combined with other subjects. So we offer computing with languages and business with languages, rather than an intensive programme in language itself. A key factor is that in order to become really proficient in language the student needs to spend some time in a country where the language is spoken, ideally through an Erasmus programme either for a semester or for a year. We have difficulties in encouraging students to travel. Irish students are less mobile than their European counterparts. It is our experience and the general experience of colleges that we receive more students than we send out. I believe there are financial and other issues.

Senator Clune mentioned PayPal, which is based in Dundalk a couple of hundred metres from the campus. That company has difficulty in recruiting and its chief executive, Louise Phelan, has stated that it only wants to recruit native speakers, a point reiterated by Deputy Calleary. We have been able to help the company recruit because we have many international students from China and other parts of Asia as well as European students. However, they are not Irish people. So it is a challenge to get more students to study languages to a level at which they can be proficient - I do not know how one gets to the level of being a native speaker other than by living in the country.

Senator Cullinane asked about the all-Ireland approach. We have worked very closely with the University of Ulster and Dublin City University, mainly on innovation and enterprise support programmes and research. We have a number of initiatives in areas such as renewable energy and ageing. However, they would mainly be enterprise supports. The big challenge for us is to recruit students from Northern Ireland. There is very little student mobility at present from Northern Ireland. Given Dundalk's location that is clearly something we are interested to change as is the case for the institutes in Letterkenny and Sligo. The issue is addressed in our strategic plan. The numbers at present are very small - we have more students from Beijing than from Newry, which gives an indication of the challenge.

This year I was very encouraged in that for the first time students from a Protestant school in Northern Ireland came to our open day. There are obviously historical and cultural issues that need to be addressed, and now is a better time than in the past. However, there are also some very practical barriers for students coming from Northern Ireland. The A-level course is a different model from the leaving certificate and the first undergraduate programmes here are typically designed to build on a leaving certificate, which is generally one year shorter in terms of a cycle and A-levels tend to specialise at that stage.

Another practical difficulty is how students from the North are scored. The scoring system does not favour students from Northern Ireland. The best student from Northern Ireland with, for example, three A-levels, can only score a maximum of 450 points whereas a student from the Republic can score 600 points and there are other practical barriers. However, we are interested in recruiting more students not just for the economic benefits but also for the better understanding of different cultures that would result from students mixing and studying together.

Mr. Ned Costello:

I am conscious that I did not address Senator Clune's issues about languages. There has been an extensive effort to increase participation in Erasmus on the part of the institutions, IBEC and the HEA. Encouragingly there was an 18% growth in students participating in Erasmus between 2009-10 and 2010-11. This was an increase of nearly 400 students to more than 2,500. They travelled to 30 of the 32 participating Erasmus countries and approximately 20% of them undertook a work placement as part of their Erasmus periods abroad.

The Senator also asked about a more integrated approach to policy on languages, which we would welcome. Just as with the work we have been doing on selection and entry to university, the better we can join up all parts of the education system pipeline, the better it will be. The work the HEA will do on giving us a better picture of exactly what is going on across the sector as a whole will be very helpful. Clearly the whole geopolitics of where our markets are is changing. However, we do not see that reflected in the education system as a whole, particularly from second level into third level, which is a major structural issue and is something that we agree needs to be considered.

Michael Conaghan (Dublin South Central, Labour)
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I wish to make an observation. Someone remarked that the broad needs of the economy might be better served by the institutes of technology sector rather than the university sector. The backdrop to this is that the institutes emerged from the vocational sector. For example, Dublin Institute of Technology emerged from City of Dublin Vocational Education Committee, CDVEC. The vocational sector was a 19th century movement in Europe and its rationale was education, training and employability. It always kept an eye on the workplace and the patterns of the labour market and trained people in that direction. Employability was the rationale on which the sector operated. It is still probably part of the culture. The universities always had a more detached view of the economy. They remained quite aloof, which was part of their tradition. There was a tension between the marketplace and the university, one that has caused difficulties for the latter and made it redefine its role in society. I am sure that resolving and responding to this issue have not been easy in terms of universities' traditions and history. My observation is intended to outline the backdrop of what the groups involved are doing.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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There has been a reaction.

Michael Conaghan (Dublin South Central, Labour)
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What they did in the past still influences what they do now.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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I do not doubt that there will be comments on this matter, but I will first call Senator White.

Mary White (Fianna Fail)
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I will reiterate my colleague's comments on the contribution of the institutes of technology. I received a scholarship to attend the college at Bolton Street in 1962. We did not feel as though we were attending a university. The institutes' contribution to the economy down the years has been well recognised. I commend our guests in this regard, including Mr. Costello.

Regarding the issue of languages, the Seanad was privileged to be visited by a Nobel laureate of economics, Professor Christopher Pissarides, who works out of the London School of Economics and Political Science, LSE. I raised a question about the policy decision to make students spend so much time learning Irish when so few leave second level able to speak it. Our young people's contemporaries on the Continent learn English as a second language. They are bilingual. We must address this issue. I am not saying we should not promote Irish, but people cannot speak it even after spending a certain amount of time every day learning it. There is also a deficit in terms of speaking European languages.

What is the perspective of the HEA on the progress towards the target of doubling the annual output of ICT graduates?

I commend Mr. Cummins, president of Dundalk IT, on his role in the Louth Economic Forum, with which I am familiar. The forum has an action plan on the third level sector and supporting economic development in the north east.

With regard to Senator Clune's document, I raised the matter of drop-out rates among ICT students. What can be done about it? Professor Pissarides made a point that struck home in terms of my personal experience: young people should have the privilege of finding out what they are good at and studying it. If they get that chance, they will really try. It is a beautiful sentiment. Although I received a scholarship to Bolton Street, I hated my course, but I put up with it. I was lucky in that I always had a job, but I attended UCD at night to study a subject that I enjoyed more.

What can be done about the high drop-out rate among first year ICT students? Dr. Murphy stated that there was a significant unmet demand from prospective students for additional places and courses. As there is a quick and effective way of obtaining ICT-qualified graduates, where is the blockage in securing the additional places for the unmet demand? I wish Professor Norton the best of luck in his second quarter with the infrastructure at Grangegorman. That campus is a star, as it accounts for 24% of national provision at degree level in ICT, amounting to some 2,000 students. What is his opinion of what can be done about the drop-out rate? Is it that young people are not able for or interested in it? It seems to be a waste. When we examined the Forfás documents some months ago, this struck me as a major issue.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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I invite our guests to answer and to make concluding comments. We will wrap up now.

Mr. Tom Boland:

The accolades heaped on the institutes of technology are well deserved. The sector has unquestionably been one of the great successes of the Irish higher education system and has contributed significantly to meeting skills needs in the economy. However, that praise should not come at the expense of the universities. The country has been served well by an element that we need to retain, namely, a diverse system of institutions. I mean "diverse" in terms of the types of outcome they achieve for their graduates and the types of people they attract. To praise the one should not be to take from the other. The two sectors are important sides of the same coin, but the higher education strategy challenges them to work together better so that the best of both sectors can be harnessed, particularly in terms of addressing their regions' needs and the wide range of demand from level 6 to level 10. The institutes of technology have done well, but the universities are no slouches in this space either.

I will touch on the question of learning Irish and other languages briefly. It is a policy minefield. I am not an educationalist, but the key element in learning Irish seems to be an incentive. If one does not see the need for or value of learning a language and one does not use it, there is no incentive to excel in learning it.

Mary White (Fianna Fail)
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We are nearly as remote as Iceland. We are aware of other countries, but parents should have their children learn other languages early, as is the case in other countries. Does Mr. Boland know what I mean?

Mr. Tom Boland:

Yes. There is definitely something about the way Irish is taught or where it lies in the curriculum that does not give optimal outcomes. However, I am not at all knowledgeable in this regard. I will ask Dr. O'Connor to deal with the matter of doubling the output - we are close to it - as well as the ICT drop-out rate.

Dr. Muiris O'Connor:

I cannot give a definitive update on the target. Work is ongoing between the HEA and the expert group on future skills needs to assess our progress in that regard. On the basis of an initial analysis, I am confident that we are on target. In fact, we may exceed the target. However, we are not concerned. As Dr. Murphy observed, there is a significant unmet demand. The employment outcomes for graduates are good. We will keep an eye on this issue.

In addition to assessing the output of graduates, the expert group is taking stock of industry's ICT skills.

It is striking that the ICT graduates are in very high demand, not just in the ICT sector but throughout the economy and that may result in a recalibration of the target.

Dropout is an issue that affects computer science studies in higher education systems in Ireland and elsewhere more than most. It is the area where we had the highest rate of dropout when we looked at the issue in the progression report in 2009. There are a number of reasons including a hangover from the dot-com boom and the drop in entry points being the most critical. We are very confident that the very steep escalation in CAO entry points for computer courses will lead directly to improved outcomes. The motivation of students has been greatly enhanced by the employment opportunities of which people are now more generally aware.

There is no blockage since last Friday's announcement of further places in the ICT skills-conversion programme. The Springboard courses will run again in 2013 with at least the same scale as in 2012. That will result in a further 2,000 additional ICT graduates in 2014 and 2015. That will encompass the full range of qualifications from level 6 to level 9.

Mr. Ned Costello:

I might just follow Dr. O'Connor with some slight contextualisation of the dropout on the ICT side. There is a strong correlation with mathematical attainment in the leaving certificate, which is why we believe that is an issue that must be addressed. Dr. O'Connor is correct that when points fall, as they did, because of demand, it meant that students could get in with fewer points, which was reflected in non-progression rates.

On the point Deputy Conaghan made-----

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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Unfortunately, Deputy Conaghan had to leave.

Mr. Ned Costello:

For the record, I believe he raised an interesting issue, which is the distinction between employability and narrow disciplinary focus. Our university system is better in terms of employability of graduates. Narrow disciplinary focus does not equate with employability. We have highly employable graduates and all the OECD data show that the returns to higher education and to higher qualifications in higher education are very high in Ireland.

Senator White raised an interesting point about a student finding out what he or she likes and pursuing it. That underpins much of our thinking about broader entry routes. While that again might seem slightly contradictory to meeting narrow skills needs, it offers potential for students to enter a more broadly based route into university, find out what they like within that broad discipline and specialise in it from second year onwards. There is the reality that I often see reflected, which is that many of us start off at primary degree level in things that we do not end up pursuing for life and we go on and achieve other qualifications. Indeed I have experience of that, myself.

Professor Brian Norton:

I am grateful for the kind comments on Grangegorman, but I stress that it is not an end but a means to an end. One of the ends is the idea of new routes and new opportunities in higher education. Students should be aware of other opportunities and be able to grasp them. New programmes can then emerge that begin to combine languages and different disciplines. The Grangegorman project is about creating the flexibilities that enable institutions such as DIT to continue with the strong traditions the Deputy identified earlier.

As sadly I am not Irish I do not feel the capacity to comment on the Irish language issue, except to make the observation that in other jurisdictions where second languages are taught, that second language is taught in such a way as to get a facility for the acquisition of language. There may be something in the way that the Irish language is taught that creates an ability to acquire other languages and their understanding. That is often why one ends up with a multilingual situation elsewhere. That might be a comment out of ignorance more than anything else.

I wish to reiterate some of the earlier points about dropout rates. It relates to maths ability and additional points requirement, and it is about motivation. DIT, for example, has a very professional learning teacher technology centre that works with colleagues in a particular discipline, looking at the pattern of assessment, how students engage, etc., to ensure they are fully engaged in their studies. Most of the dropout is in the first semester of the first year and it is about adjustment from second level to third level and finding oneself. After that it is very low.

Dr. Connor mentioned that there are many more places in conversion courses. In previous rounds, for example, where there have been other providers which have not had a complete uptake of places, some of them have been transferred to DIT so that demand has taken up. We would do as much in the conversion area as resources would permit and there are always resource limits to these things.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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I congratulate the witnesses on their presentation today and how they teased through the issue. There is considerably more behind the scenes than people might see in a headline discussion. It was worthwhile and we will discuss it with Ministers also. It is about prioritisation and matching resources with the demand. In all areas the institutions have adapted to give students a choice to move quickly into an area, to specialise early or to take a longer route. I also compliment them on their daytime and night-time courses. We need to have flexibility on course choice and method of studying.

I have a view on student dropout. Given the pressures coming out of second level, there is not enough time spent preparing students to adapt to third level education. It is a completely different world in terms of what they are supposed to do and taking on responsibility for themselves. We should probably make greater use of summer holidays to get people ready. They should have more career courses and spend more time abroad in certain areas. They should spend more time in fourth and fifth year before the final push on the leaving certificate. It is clear there is a big difference between leaving second level in June and arriving in third level in September, and not enough is done on preparing them for that. We might engage with the witnesses on that topic in future.

I thank the witnesses for attending and I believe the meeting was very worthwhile. What we discussed feeds into the report by Senator Clune. We hope to have a rolling report every six or seven months and we will also engage with the Minister next week.