Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees

Thursday, 1 November 2012

Public Accounts Committee

Garda Síochána - Review of Allowances

Mr. Martin Callinan (Commissioner, An Garda Síochána), Mr. P. J. Stone (General Secretary, Garda Representative Association) and Mr. John Redmond (General Secretary, Association of Garda Sergeants and Inspectors) called and examined.

2:10 pm

Photo of John McGuinnessJohn McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I remind members, witnesses and those in the Visitors' Gallery to turn off their mobile telephones because they can interfere with the quality of the transmission.

I advise witnesses they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they are to give to the committee. If they are directed by it to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against a Member of either House, a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I remind members of the provision within Standing Order 158 that the committee shall refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government or a Minister of the Government or the merits of the objectives of such policy or policies.

I welcome Mr. Martin Callinan, Commissioner, An Garda Síochána, Mr. P. J. Stone, general secretary, Garda Representative Association, and Mr. John Redmond, general secretary, Association of Garda Sergeants and Inspectors, and ask them to introduce their colleagues.

Mr. Martin Callinan:

I am accompanied by Ms Noirín O'Sullivan, deputy commissioner, operations, Mr. Nacie Rice, deputy commissioner, strategy and change management, and Mr. Michael Culhane, executive director of finance.

Mr. P. J. Stone:

I am accompanied by Mr. John Parker, president of the Garda Representative Association.

Mr. John Redmond:

I am accompanied by Mr. Willie Gleeson, president of the Association of Garda Sergeants and Inspectors.

Photo of John McGuinnessJohn McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I invite Mr. Martin Callinan to make his opening statement.

Mr. Martin Callinan:

I thank the committee for the opportunity to appear once again before it in my capacity as Accounting Officer for An Garda Síochána. I look forward to discussing any aspect of the Vote with the committee. I have previously supplied briefing material to the committee in response to several queries it has raised and on which it wished to have information.

The strength of An Garda Síochána on 31 December 2010 was 14,377, all ranks. The strength of the force on 31 December 2011 was 13,894, a reduction of 483 members. The strength of the force on 26 October 2012 was 13,476 sworn members, inclusive of all ranks. We are three members fewer today. In total since 31 December 2010, 901 gardaí of all ranks have retired or left the organisation. On 31 December 2011, there were 2,074 full-time equivalent civilian staff employed in an Garda Síochána with a ratio of civilian to sworn members of 1:7. An Garda Síochána remains committed to attaining a lower ratio. However, this is influenced by the current public sector recruitment moratorium. It must also be borne in mind that An Garda Síochána performs security, intelligence and immigration functions that are not performed by many of our comparator police organisations. These additional mandates have an impact on the garda-civilian ratio. The number of full-time equivalent civilian staff employed in An Garda Síochána on 26 October 2012 was 2,031.

This year to date has been challenging and demanding yet An Garda Síochána has had much success operationally and organisationally with decreases in many categories of crime, reductions once again in road fatalities and many successes against dissident republicans intent on causing injury in either this jurisdiction or in Northern Ireland. The efficient use of resources has been highlighted in the annual Garda policing plan 2012. One of its objectives is to promote efficiencies and effectiveness in resource allocation and deployment so as to enhance the policing service we provide to members of the public. However, I am conscious of the need to make the best use of State resources made available to me. With this in mind, I have initiated constructive dialogue with our criminal justice sector partners such as the Courts Service, the Prison Service and the Department of Justice and Equality that will generate further efficiencies in the years to come.

The 2012 budget for the Garda Vote amounts to €1.325 billion, 8% less than the 2011 budget of €1.439 billion which was also reduced from the 2010 figure. The rapid decline in the public finances in recent years requires us all to do more with less. An Garda Síochána is not immune from the effects of the downturn in public finances and we continue to play our part in our nation's economic recovery. The public and other stakeholders expect as efficient and productive an organisation as possible. Indeed, the significant achievement already made by An Garda Síochána in delivering organisational reform is widely recognised. For example, there has been the piloting of a new roster, the first in almost 40 years in the force, and the new performance and accountability system which is due for full roll out in 2013.

In conjunction with these achievements, An Garda Síochána also has a significant organisational development and change programme in operation encompassing my commitments towards the Croke Park agreement, the integrated reform delivery plan and the GRACE, Garda response to a changing environment, programme. This programme has 39 projects either completed or in progress in areas such as a new service delivery model, district and station rationalisation, workforce realignment and an examination of specialisation in the organisation among others.

Up to 90% of the Garda Vote is expended on wages, salaries and allowances. Several allowances were first introduced by the then Government in the Garda Síochána Allowances Order 1924 and 1926. These allowances recognised the unique nature of the work of An Garda Síochána and were awarded in many instances in lieu of basic pay rises over the years. This uniqueness was subsequently recognised by both the Conroy commission in 1970 and the Ryan committee of inquiry in 1979. The Conroy commission recognised the significant impact these allowances had on the morale of the organisation. The debate around allowances has particular resonance in An Garda Síochána similar to other public service organisations and, indeed, has implications for the Croke Park agreement.

The conciliation and arbitration process is one of the negotiating mechanisms which exists for the purpose of enabling the Minister for Justice and Equality, the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform and the Commissioner of An Garda Síochána on the one hand, and the Garda representative associations on the other, to provide for the determination and validity of claims including pay and allowances.

A further purpose of the conciliation and arbitration process is to secure the agreement and fullest co-operation between the State, as employer, and the members, as employees, for the better discharge of the functions of An Garda Síochána. Indeed, it is a mechanism which has served the State well in that it has ensured the preservation of industrial harmony, while at the same time maintaining confidence and effectiveness in the Garda industrial relations machinery.

For over four decades this mechanism has been utilised by both sides in the initial granting of and subsequent increase in these allowances and expenses for An Garda Síochána. In the case of civilian employees, the trade unions that represent civilians in An Garda Síochána continue to engage and work to ensure their members work efficiently in the organisation.

When the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Howlin, published the outcome of the review of public service allowances and premium pay on 18 September 2012 following consideration by Government, one allowance, similar to that in other public sector bodies, namely delegates allowance, was deemed no longer justified.

In addition, the Minister announced that arising from the review a number of changes will be made to the public service allowance regime which included certain allowances for An Garda Síochána. These included classes of allowances proposed to be abolished for new beneficiaries and allowances which were subject to review and-or modification. In addition, it identified classes of allowances proposed to be approved for new beneficiaries. A total of eight allowances were identified within An Garda Síochána for priority elimination.

Following this central Government decision, I have instructed, as part of the revised action plan 2012 for An Garda Síochána in the context of the Public Service Agreement 2010-2014, that the consultation process will now begin with the Garda staff associations with the objective of establishing a mechanism whereby these priority allowances to existing beneficiaries will be eliminated. This process will include a time scale for the elimination of these allowances.

I will answer any questions the Chairman and committee may have for me.

2:20 pm

Photo of John McGuinnessJohn McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Thank you, Commissioner. Can we publish your statement?

Mr. Martin Callinan:

Certainly.

Photo of John McGuinnessJohn McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I ask Mr. Redmond to make his opening statement.

Mr. John Redmond:

The Association of Garda Sergeants and Inspectors, AGSI, was established under SI 1357 of 1978, the Garda Síochána (Associations) Regulations 1978, to represent the interests of members of An Garda Síochána holding the ranks of sergeant, station sergeant and inspector in the areas of welfare, pay and conditions of service in An Garda Síochána. The association represents 2,007 members of sergeant and inspector ranks.

AGSI welcomes the opportunity to address the committee today and hopes the issues surrounding allowances in An Garda Síochána which may be raised by the committee can be discussed and explained by this association.

AGSI is anxious to dispel the myths surrounding the payment of allowances to members of An Garda Síochána, including ambiguity surrounding the amounts of payments made, taxation liability, the numbers to which the payments refer and the widespread belief that all members of An Garda Síochána get all allowances.

The Croke Park agreement is working. It has saved approximately €1.5 billion in costs to date. As the committee will be aware, it guarantees no further wage cuts in return for industrial peace and a far-reaching aggressive agenda for change across the public sector. An Garda Síochána has progressively pursued these changes. Moreover our members have delivered what was required to date and this has been publicly acknowledged by Garda Commissioners, Mr. P. J. Fitzpatrick, chair of the Garda implementation body, and the Ministers, Deputies Howlin and Shatter.

I would like to remind the committee that we were subject to a wage cut, universal social charge, increased PRSI, increased insurance levies and a pension-related levy, all of which resulted in a reduction of over 20% in pay for our members. Coupled with this, a 6% increase granted under Towards 2016 was withdrawn and, of course, will not be paid now.

One significant change under the Croke Park agreement to An Garda Síochána comes in the form of working patterns of members. Since changes have come into effect, officers now work a ten-hour day with a more relevant supply-demand ratio. The resulting availability of more members on the streets has been commented on by the public.

The Central Statistics Office, in a 2011 report, cites figures which show that public sector pay has fallen since 2008, while private sector pay has increased, and the computations exclude the public sector pension levy. In addition, working time has increased across the public sector by an average of 5%, while in most private sector employment it has decreased. An Garda Síochána members still work on average a 40 hour week. Employee numbers have reduced by 10% since 2008 with further reductions to come. In An Garda Síochána, the numbers are expected to be at a maximum of 13,000 by the end of 2013. That is a significant reduction from current figures of approximately 13,350 and well down on our peak numbers a short couple of years ago.

Considering pay across the public sector, 60% of employees earn under €55,000, with 25% earning less than €35,000. More reductions in pay through allowance reduction or elimination, at a time when costs are rising in utilities, bank charges and mortgage rates, merely constrict further the spending ability of, and increase financial pressures on, moderate income earners.

Allowances form a significant part of the core pay in An Garda Síochána. This was borne out in two Government commissions - under Judge Conroy and Professor Louden Ryan - two Government benchmarking reports and the conciliation and arbitration scheme for An Garda Síochána. It should be remembered that despite reports of huge increases under benchmarking, members of the AGSI were awarded a 5% increase while senior civil and public servants were awarded 16% increases.

The report on remuneration and pay in An Garda Síochána, known as the Conroy report, was presented to the Minister for Justice in January 1970. The Minister's commission, under Judge Conroy, was established in September 1968 to "examine, report and make recommendations on the remuneration and conditions of service" in An Garda Síochána. In chapter two of that report, Judge Conroy makes reference to the type of person burdened with being a policeman, and the benefits to Government of his role, at page five, when he states that a Garda's powers and duties are with him whether he is in or out of uniform and whether on or off duty, and he is responsible for any error of judgment in exercising these powers and is answerable for any such error.

Some 43 years later, this remains the case. Members of sergeant and inspector ranks are tasked with responsibilities that no other individual in the civil or public service must bear. Solely, we can deprive a person of his or her liberty; make life-changing decisions in split seconds; expose ourselves to prosecution-investigation by carrying out our statutory role; have our decisions scrutinised by an outside agency in the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission or internally through Garda discipline regulations; be suspended without pay or at best with 90% of basic pay; be left without professional legal assistance, apart from the AGSI scheme; and, ultimately, be open to losing one's job for relatively minor infringements of the regulations. Sadly, many of our members have lost their lives through the carrying out of their policing duties and many more are injured through assault each year. An Garda Síochána is unique in this regard.

This association has yet to see any other public servant targeted in the same way for the performance of his or her duties as an officeholder. Most mistakes in other agencies are referred to as "systems failures" and often the result is that an undertaking is given that procedures have been put in place to ensure the same thing cannot happen again.

It has been the practice that police in Ireland and the United Kingdom were paid a rent allowance if they could not be supplied with free accommodation. This practice was established before the Desborough commission reported to the Government of the United Kingdom in July 1919.

In Ireland, there is a similar historical aspect to rent allowance and other allowances in the Garda organisation. I have a written submission, which I will leave with the committee, which deals with a selection of allowances which are targeted for elimination or restructuring within the Garda organisation. I will conclude at that. I thank the Chairman and members of the Committee.

Photo of John McGuinnessJohn McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Thank you, Mr. Redmond. Can we publish your statement?

Mr. John Redmond:

Yes, certainly.

Photo of John McGuinnessJohn McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Would Mr. P. J. Stone like make an opening statement?

Mr. P. J. Stone:

Yes. I thank the Chairman for giving us the opportunity for coming here today to address him and the committee.

This is the first opportunity we have been given to address the issue in a public forum. Much of the debate and discussion in respect of allowances has been conducted in an atmosphere of hysteria. One matter it is important to point out in respect of the 11,100 members that I represent is that the allowances applicable to those known as front-line responders, the young men and women of the Garda Síochána who have to go to every call, amounts to approximately three in all: rent allowance, boot allowance and uniform maintenance allowance. The notion that members of the Garda Síochána are in receipt of some 101 allowances is a misnomer.

The question of the way the allowances are paid should be addressed in the context of the real meaning of what is an allowance. For instance, when one talks about the earnings of members of the Garda Síochána in respect of overtime, that should be clear and distinct.

Equally, when one talks about earnings in respect of the payments for unsocial hours working, that should be clear and distinct. To bundle that into some sort of notion of allowances puts a skew on the public purse in a way that I do not think gives a true picture or accurate reflection of what is required in terms of the policing of this State. It must be remembered that when everybody else is curled up at night in their beds and comfortable, members of the Garda Síochána continue to provide a service 24 hours a day, 365 days of the year. Nobody with any sense of moral right would begrudge those members the entitlement to be paid, as is paid right across the public and private sector, commensurate wages in respect of what should be known as a shift allowance. That is the direction in which we should be going and they are the areas that need to be addressed in the context of putting this right once and for all.

Equally in respect of the number of allowances which have been bandied about both in the public media and elsewhere, in reality the number of allowances which can be reflected accurately which could be taken as the amount that are in usage, in my view, is about 34. They are paid for very specific reasons and they are paid for the purpose of ensuring continuity of service so that members of the Garda Síochána of my rank are able to do the job they are targeted and charged with by the Garda Commissioner.

There is one thing I would like to say to the committee and it is very important because it is lost sight of in respect of the force. The majority of gardaí will retire as gardaí. Some 80% of my members who joined the Garda Síochána will retire as gardaí. There is no facility within the Garda Síochána for grading or grade structures as apply elsewhere. It applies in European police forces where they have different grades and different structures. That would have dealt with the issue of why people are paid a particular amount of money for taking on the responsibility of a particular job, but what it would have meant in the Garda Síochána is that one would have had different pay levels for different members of the force. That might not necessarily have been a bad thing, but this is the issue in respect of where we are from the point of view of the public perception of the way allowances are paid.

In the context of the negotiations we have engaged in, we have always stayed within the industrial relations mechanisms available to us, which have served the State well - the conciliation and arbitration machinery. While I might not be particularly in favour of the way it has operated throughout the Garda Síochána in my service, I still have to acknowledge that it is a forum where we can go and make our case. I know that when we have argued at that forum in respect of issues pertaining to our conditions of employment, it was always people from the Department of Justice and Equality and the Department of Finance present who ensured - to quote a Secretary General of the Department - that we pulled the ladder up after us so as to ensure that nobody else could effectively follow and pursue some claims that were agreed for gardaí because of the unique nature of policing. These things must be borne in mind in the context of now looking at whether something is justified. While I respect, Chairman, that you and your committee are not doing that, it is important in the context of any discussion that is taking place that we do not open up another forum for negotiations because it is my contention that we have proved the point in respect of the entitlement of some of these allowances and we have shown quite clearly and illustrated that, in the norm, these allowances are much cheaper than that which relates to some of our European counterparts.

I might make a simple case on that. A lot of outsourcing has happened with European police forces and in any analysis of that outsourcing, one will find that it actually cost more than it costs in Ireland in terms of the service we provide. It has already been related by the Commissioner that we are a unitary police force. We do everything from the point of view of investigation of traffic accidents to the security of the State. In other jurisdictions some of those issues are handled by MI5, M16, etc., but we take on board every aspect and facet of policing and we do it with a proud tradition and with a degree of service that is second to none.

It is important in the context of a debate on gardaí and their pay and remuneration that we clearly understand that some of the issues pertaining to pay and allowances are historical, outside our control and are matters which, in the context of any important review, could be addressed in a way that would not cause this type of concern into the future. I certainly would be anxious to participate in that type of discussion and I look forward to the forum the Commissioner has alluded to being set up so that we can then make our business case in respect of the matters that are now before the committee.

It is also important to say that there is a great deal of frustration among young gardaí, particularly those with about eight or nine years' service, who hear again through the media that the average pay they receive is in the region of €53,000. I have a payslip here that reflects the pay of about 80% of the members I represent and it can be sent to the Chairman, if that is what he requires. The pay of a member of the Garda Síochána - it can be clearly shown - is €46,631 for a member with nine years' service - it is not €53,480. They get very annoyed and aggrieved when this kind of wage average is put out in the public arena.

I know the Chairman and the committee have a very serious task. I know they are charged with looking after the public purse strings and reporting back to Government and making recommendations. I sincerely hope, once they have had the opportunity to talk to us - to talk to our members, if necessary, beyond this forum - that their understanding will be much more and that they will have a greater degree of acceptance of the necessity for the continuation of the arrangements, perhaps in a different guise, as important for the proper perception and right of the Irish people who are paying our wages.

2:30 pm

Photo of John McGuinnessJohn McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. Stone. His opening remarks will form part of the record of today's meeting. While the work of the committee is centred on the allowances, it gives the opportunity to the employer and those either in the force or in the Defence Forces or their representative bodies to come here and explain the allowances and take away some of the mystery from the public commentary on allowances whether it be in the Garda Síochána, the Defence Forces or any other part of the State. I would like those present to view it in that way. It is a positive move by the Committee of Public Accounts to give the opportunity to representative bodies and to the administration of the force in this case to come here and put their views on the public record and perhaps to correct some of the misinformation that is out there. We have found it a very positive process and we have had very positive exchanges between all concerned. We will have just one further meeting. I would like the witnesses to avail of today's meeting in answering the questions the members have in order to clarify the different issues regarding allowances.

Photo of Gerald NashGerald Nash (Louth, Labour)
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I echo what the Chairman has said. I do not believe any representative organisation or trade union appearing before the committee has anything to fear from this process. This has been a very constructive exercise in recent weeks and has performed the function of busting some of the myths about public sector allowances that have been perpetuated in recent weeks and months. I welcome the Commissioner, his colleagues and the representatives of the staff associations. I put on record our thanks to the members of the Garda Síochána for protecting the people and the State.

Approximately 108 allowances are payable to members of the Garda Síochána across all ranks with an overall cost of in excess of €214 million. More than half of the allowances are taken up by payment for work at weekends, on public holidays, etc., outside non-core hours. A quarter of the €240 million is paid for the Garda rent allowance. According to the figures we have, a total of 21.6% of a garda's pay is made up of allowances. By any measure that is quite large in the context of the relationship between basic pay and allowances. I know that overtime constitutes a large part of the pay of members of the force. As with teachers, the pay structures for gardaí are quite complex and cumbersome. They have developed in a piecemeal fashion since the foundation of the State. Representative bodies and members of the force over the years may not have been too concerned about how they were awarded provided that the money hit the bank account at the end of the week or month, which is entirely understandable. As was correctly pointed out, many of the allowances have been in force since the mid-1920s.

Many of them constitute core pay in my opinion. What efforts have been made by the representative organisations to absorb or consolidate the allowances into core pay? Were they content to continue to call the payments allowances when for all intents and purposes they constitute core pay?

2:40 pm

Mr. P. J. Stone:

It is probably not a bad thing that we evolved to where we are today in terms of scrutiny of some of these allowances provided that it is done in the context described by Deputy Nash and the Chairman. A number of these allowances could be subsumed into pay in order to remove the idea that they are perks. I am sure that is the way forward. It is fair to say that the allowances were previously used to make up for increases in pay. That is a pity in one sense because if, for example, members of the Garda Síochána were paid according to the proper pay structures, the question of making claims to conciliation for this or that allowance might not have arisen. Comparisons are constantly made with other forces. A police officer starting in the London Metropolitan Police Service earns a salary of €35,464, compared to €25,745 here. The same relationship exists throughout the service. It is a pity that we have not arrived at a proper benchmark for pay of members of the Garda Síochána. If that had been done 15 or 20 years ago we might not be having this debate.

Mr. Martin Callinan:

I wish to make a couple of general points on the issue of allowances. In the context of the 108 allowances outlined in the Deputy’s question, the difficulty of being both descriptive and prescriptive in respect of a unilateral allowance for the Garda was recognised in my opening remarks and by subsequent speakers. This is particularly the case given the unique duties applicable to the force. Some of the allowances could certainly be subsumed into basic pay and I support the arguments articulated by others in regard to the various allowances that accrued to members of the force over the years.

However, other issues arise which might make the process somewhat difficult. I refer to the totality of the allowances rather than individual allowances. The services provided by An Garda Síochána have always been driven by demand. This means we need the requisite number of people in the right place at the right time to meet demands. As the pattern of demand will not always be uniform across the ranks, the nuance between those who are entitled to allowances and those who are disentitled, if I may use that term, would have to be carefully considered in most cases. The issue also arises of operational police officers being available on a 24-seven basis, 365 days per year. The third leg of the problem is discommoding people from their places of employment and asking them to be available for duty at locations other than their normal place of work.

These issues have to be factored in. Many of the allowances - no more so than overtime - are demand driven. The need to match demand with the nature of the employment dictates where allowances should be paid and who should receive them. I agree, however, that a number of allowances could be subsumed into basic pay.

Photo of Gerald NashGerald Nash (Louth, Labour)
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Mr. Callinan mentioned overtime. The business cases that have been presented to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform and the figures we have seen in recent days indicate that overtime is a big issue. A particular spike appears to occur with overtime for inspectors. Four inspectors each earned more than €60,000 in allowances and overtime. That is an extraordinary figure by any stretch of the imagination. Does a particular issue arise in the management structure when it comes to inspectors and, if so, what has been done to address it?

Mr. Martin Callinan:

All of the figures for overtime are the result of demand for the services of the individual concerned. A set budget for overtime is allocated to chief superintendents at the start of the year. Inspectors are a divisional resource, in other words, they work to their chief superintendents and superintendents in their respective districts. This means, for example, they are occasionally required to travel significant distances to service the courts. As the Deputy will be aware, we prosecute in the District Court. They are also involved in a considerable range of interfaces with committees, whether in joint policing committees, the health service, justice or the courts.

They have a wide range of duties and their span of control must also be taken into account because as operational officers will have in their charge a number of sergeants and gardaí. At night, when we are all tucked away safely in our beds, inspectors are supervising and directing the officers in their charge.

All of the overtime expenditure is carefully monitored, particularly in the context of the reduced financial and human resources available to us over the past several years. Senior management is acutely aware of how that money is spent. The figures substantiate what the Deputy has pointed out. More than one third of the gross salary of inspectors is consumed by overtime and allowances generally. This is not money that is thrown away like confetti at a wedding, however. There are tight controls and structures around the allocation of overtime. It is probably driven by the range of product that inspectors are expected to deliver.

Photo of Gerald NashGerald Nash (Louth, Labour)
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A substantial amount of public money is spent on the rent allowance. This allowance has been in existence for quite some time and it obviously reflected a particular need at a point in time. It is probably fair to say, however, that the vast majority of gardaí above a certain rank own their homes. Is the rent allowance paid to every garda who owns a home? Am I correct to understand that it is paid up to the rank of chief superintendent?

Mr. Martin Callinan:

That is correct. Like any other allowance, it formed part of the negotiation or conciliation under the Garda Síochána allowances order. It has been on the books since the 1920s and it would be unreasonable by any stretch of the imagination to argue it should not be subsumed into the generalities of pay.

Photo of Gerald NashGerald Nash (Louth, Labour)
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Has it been in place since the mid-1920s?

Mr. Martin Callinan:

I do not have the exact date but it was introduced in the region of 1926 or 1927.

Photo of Gerald NashGerald Nash (Louth, Labour)
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I imagine that many gardaí consider it to be part of core pay given that it has been in place for nearly 90 years.

I was not aware of the non-public duty allowance until we undertook this exercise.

I understand it is paid to gardaí who perform duties at concerts, football matches and so on. I will refer the Commissioner to a line in the business case returned to the Department that states that the allowance is typically paid "out of this fee". The GAA, the FAI, concert promoters and so on pay a fee to the Garda to cover their events within the confines of the stadium, venue or whatever the case may be. According to the 2011 figures presented to the committee, 2,262 gardaí received a 1.5-time rate and a further cohort received double time in the context of the non-public duty allowance. Does the organisation ever suffer a shortfall due to requests for a Garda presence at events? If so, does the taxpayer foot the bill? According to the business case, the fee "typically" covers the cost. This suggests that it does not always cover the cost.

2:50 pm

Mr. Martin Callinan:

The Deputy is quite right and he has described non-public duty well - namely, duty at concerts and large sporting fixtures in particular. Generally, local Garda management sits down the organisers and discusses the policing plan - that is, the terms required to police the events effectively. It has not always been the case that expectations are met in terms of the amount of money for which we ask. In more recent times, however, committees have sat and rates have been struck with concert promoters, etc.

There is always a debate on what is representative of public duty. For example, sporting events have a community value. Therefore, there are obligations on the Garda to act in the public interest and provide a certain level of service. Large commercial considerations include concerts, etc. There has always been a disparity, but we have narrowed it down. When we enter a negotiation with a concert promoter or large sporting body, we generally set out the number of gardaí required. Depending on the day of the week, the time of day, bank holidays, etc., we factor in all of the allowances that the gardaí would normally receive and match them with our invoice for the event.

Photo of Gerald NashGerald Nash (Louth, Labour)
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By and large, the costs are recovered.

Mr. Martin Callinan:

That is what occurs nowadays.

Photo of Gerald NashGerald Nash (Louth, Labour)
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According to the latest figures, the availability allowance amounts to approximately €1.7 million. This allowance applies to senior members of the force - superintendents, chief superintendents and others - who are expected to make themselves available during non-core hours, as it were. Given the public service's development in recent years, it is a fact of life for many senior managers that they no longer work a 9 a.m. to 5 p.m. day five or six days per week. I have a good relationship with my superintendent. Now that I know he has an availability allowance, I will be ringing him more frequently at the weekend for his advice. He might not welcome my comment.

Photo of Paschal DonohoePaschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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It is too late.

Photo of Gerald NashGerald Nash (Louth, Labour)
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It is on the public record.

Mr. Martin Callinan:

He will offer his fullest support.

Photo of Gerald NashGerald Nash (Louth, Labour)
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Given that the public service has evolved and the Garda has responded to the change in a positive way, there is a strong argument for this allowance to be absorbed into core pay. Instead of calling it an allowance, its nature as pay should be reflected, given people's responsibilities.

Mr. Martin Callinan:

This may well be an issue for negotiation down the road. Almost every weekend, many members of my senior command are called out to handle different issues such as murders and other serious and nefarious activities. It is a given that they are involved almost 24-7. They are available via telephone, e-mail, etc. I should go no further than to say that there is a capacity for an availability allowance, but its complexion and fit are issues for another day of conciliation and arbitration.

Photo of Gerald NashGerald Nash (Louth, Labour)
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Mr. Stone mentioned the potential for benchmarking with analogous forces. The forces with which we most closely identify are those in Great Britain and, on the island of Ireland, the PSNI. How do our rates and allowances compare with those of UK police forces, particularly the PSNI?

Mr. P. J. Stone:

Many allowances have been carried over. The Deputy raised a point about rent. To be accurate, the rent allowance was applied to the wages of members of the Royal Irish Constabulary in 1883. The Irish State has mirrored many of the allowances payable to our British counterparts. Some of the allowances at issue in this discussion have been subsumed into the pay of English and PSNI constables. Strangely, some years ago the London Metropolitan Police Service abolished the rent allowance for new entrants, but has since reintroduced it. If memory serves, it amounts to approximately £6,580. Under any benchmarking exercise, we mirror 95% of other police forces exactly, with the exception of pay. This is particularly so in the PSNI's case, where new recruits early in their careers are better paid than gardaí, as is outlined in figures I have provided.

Photo of Gerald NashGerald Nash (Louth, Labour)
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Has the bicycle allowance been abolished, or will it be?

Mr. Martin Callinan:

That forms part of the discussion that must take place in the context of priority allowances selected for extinction by the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform.

Photo of Gerald NashGerald Nash (Louth, Labour)
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It is paid to 70 members of the force outside of the mountain bike unit. The business case states that it is applicable to members "who have been directed to provide themselves with a bicycle on duty". Where would this apply? If it is to be replaced, could it be replaced by a Segway allowance? According to the media yesterday, many gardaí have been provided with Segways, which is a good development.

Mr. P. J. Stone:

Should we make the claim now?

Photo of John DeasyJohn Deasy (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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Surely the Garda has already.

Photo of Gerald NashGerald Nash (Louth, Labour)
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To replace it.

Mr. Martin Callinan:

This is another legacy allowance that has been available for quite some time. In some parts of the country, people still perform their duties on bicycles. As I am sure Deputy Nash is aware, we are not always in a position to provide official bicycles to certain members in rural communities.

Photo of Gerald NashGerald Nash (Louth, Labour)
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It is approximately €2 per week.

Mr. Martin Callinan:

It is quite small. I had it for a brief period as a detective, but that was soon knocked on the head.

Photo of Gerald NashGerald Nash (Louth, Labour)
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I thank the Commissioner.

Photo of Kieran O'DonnellKieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Did the Commissioner use the bike?

Photo of Paschal DonohoePaschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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I welcome the witnesses and thank them for attending. I wish to make two general points. First, I thank the Garda for the work it does in our communities, which is particularly apparent on nights such as last night, Hallowe'en, when many of the people the witnesses represent are working on our streets while others enjoy the night. Second, I thank the person who prepared the material sent to us, particularly the appendices and the two documents from the Commissioner's office. The laying out of the various allowances received by people and how they correlate to total compensation is helpful to our work. The committee has been trying to integrate and bring together the allowance part of the story with the income part. Forwarding us this much material is not easily done and, as such, I thank the witnesses.

Mr. Martin Callinan:

The Deputy is welcome.

Photo of Paschal DonohoePaschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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I had written down some great questions. After losing them, I have found them again.

I refer back to a comment by Mr. Stone that there are 34 allowances in operation. I contrast that with appendix A which we received as preparation for this session that lists 108 of them, starting with overtime. How do we reconcile a list of 108 allowances with Mr. Stone's observation that there are 34 allowances?

3:00 pm

Mr. P. J. Stone:

If I presented the Deputy with one of our diaries, which I present to the 11,100 members I represent, it would contain the list of allowances that are applicable to Garda rank. Some of the allowances referred to by the Deputy have been obsolete because there is nobody in receipt of them. There is a great case to be made for tidying up that list to reflect what is here in the list that applies to the members of my rank. In the McCarthy report, Mr. McCarthy identified what we would call live allowances at approximately 54 and that probably would be nearer the mark because some of the allowances alluded to by Mr. McCarthy have been set out by the Commissioner in respect of other ranks, particularly on-call allowances. In respect of members of the Garda Síochána I represent, that is the list of allowances applicable to them.

Photo of Paschal DonohoePaschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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What is correct then?

Mr. P. J. Stone:

As far as I am concerned, 34 is the correct number because if the Deputy asked me as a member of the Garda Síochána of Garda rank what allowances are applicable to him, I would give him that list. That is what is included in our diary that goes out to our membership. I would say 99% of the members I represent are in receipt of rent, boot and uniform maintenance allowances.

Photo of Paschal DonohoePaschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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Could the Commissioner explain how I can reconcile this list with Mr. Stone's contribution?

Mr. Martin Callinan:

I very much welcome the general secretary's comment about tidying up the list. Certainly, one will not find any resistance from management's perspective about any of them that we can tidy up. The Deputy has a list of all of the available allowances that are on the books. Some of them, as has been rightly said, have not been utilised for a variety of reasons. I have absolutely no doubt that in the context of the review of the allowances, all of these matters will be examined in very great detail. Management will not stand in the way of getting rid of any of those allowances that are there.

Mr. John Redmond:

Something that might bring clarity is the fact that the allowances are listed in different guises. For example, number 16 is an availability allowance for superintendents and number 23 is an availability allowance for chief superintendents. They are the same allowance and we would regard them as the availability allowance.

Photo of Paschal DonohoePaschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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Some of them are being repeated here?

Mr. John Redmond:

Number 63 refers to child allowance (Lyon), while number 71 refers to child allowance (Lisbon). It is the same with 104 and 103 - cost of living allowance (unaccompanied), cost of living allowance (accompanied), cost of living (Hague) and cost of living allowance (Lyon and Lisbon). They are listed as four separate allowances but they are all the same thing.

Mr. Martin Callinan:

I would not like anyone to lose sight of the fact that they are all allowances on the books because I would not think our superintendent colleagues would thank us for saying that if the chief superintendent's availability allowance is there, will that not do? It is important that we recognise that the allowances are the allowances that are there on the books.

Photo of Paschal DonohoePaschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. Redmond for his clarification. I have a list of 108 allowances but Mr. Stone is saying that the members he represents, and I accept completely the point he is making, by and large claim around 34 to 35 of them.

Mr. P. J. Stone:

Any member of Garda rank has the facility to claim any of the allowances in there. The other ones the Deputy alluded to would not refer to Garda by rank and I hope I am not misleading the Deputy in that. If one looks at Mr. McCarthy's report and the analysis he conducted at the time, he saw that there were 54 allowances. I accept the point made by the Commissioner. It is a bit like legislation in that it is on the Statute Book but whether it is utilised is the question. If we were to look at that for the purposes of tidying up those allowances, this could reduce them but would effectively not change or alter them. It is not about trying to con people. I am merely making the point that there is a notion out there that gardaí are in receipt of 108 allowances. Those are the allowances that are applicable to members of the Garda Síochána I represent.

Photo of Paschal DonohoePaschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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I am not trying to perpetuate such an illusion.

Mr. P. J. Stone:

I did not say that.

Photo of Paschal DonohoePaschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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He did not and I did not mean it in the spirit that Mr. Stone may have taken it. When I asked him that question, it was not for the purpose of trying to catch anybody out. It was just to illustrate a challenge we come across in all of these meetings, which is the number and huge variety of allowances which most people are not accessing and using but some people are.

Mr. P. J. Stone:

Equally, in respect of some of these allowances, members of my rank are only entitled to claim a maximum of three allowances. If it so happens that some of these allowances go beyond that, that must be approved by the Department of Finance in Killarney because there are issues concerning pensions and entitlement. It is another issue that I would like to raise with the Deputy in the context of the allowances per se.

Photo of Paschal DonohoePaschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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A delegation from the Defence Forces appeared before us. I think they have 63 allowances. Prison officers have 64 allowances while this list states that the gardaí have 108 allowances. I take on board completely the point made by Mr. Stone that some of these allowances will be duplicates, as Mr. Redmond noted. There still appears to be a large number of them on paper in comparison to what I have seen in different organisations across the public service. Does anybody have any comments on that?

Mr. P. J. Stone:

Obviously, I cannot speak about allowances applicable to the agencies mentioned by the Deputy because I would not be familiar with them. In terms of looking at the documentation that came from the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, if one looks at the Garda Síochána radio technician allowance and the Defence Forces position, one can see they have the very same allowance but might be paying it to three people. It is just the way some of those allowances are divided up. They are the same allowance but payable to different people, if I am making myself clear.

Photo of Paschal DonohoePaschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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Yes. To move on to another allowance-----

Photo of John McGuinnessJohn McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Gleeson wanted to make a point.

Photo of Paschal DonohoePaschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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I apologise. Did Mr. Gleeson wish to speak?

Mr. Willie Gleeson:

Yes. To answer the Deputy's question, the fact that An Garda Síochána is a national police force and is so disparate in its different sections, covering everything from front line policing, traffic corps, community policing and various specialist areas, may account for the greater number of allowances than in the other services mentioned by the Deputy.

Photo of Paschal DonohoePaschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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In fairness, when the Defence Forces appeared before us, they made the point that they are, in effect, their own world. They made the point that every profession one could think of is replicated within the Defence Forces, from a surgeon to an engineer, because they need the ability to have that presence in other countries. I still take Mr. Gleeson's point.

This is the first session we have had in which overtime has been referred to as an allowance, although the Chairman or the Clerk might correct me if I am wrong. In every other session we have had, overtime was separate. Yesterday afternoon, we dealt with local authority workers and their representatives made the point that in a recent Labour Court hearing covering their members, the judgment was that an allowance and overtime are completely separate. They are different things. However, we are having a discussion here in which overtime is part of the allowance umbrella.

Is there any reason for that or is it just a cultural issue as part of how it has been managed?

3:10 pm

Mr. Martin Callinan:

That was how it evolved and the Deputy is right, overtime is regarded as an allowance within the organisation. Whether that should be the case I do not know. The bottom line is that it is another expenditure that must be catered for so I do not worry about where it sits. People could be forgiven for looking at the Garda Vote and seeing overtime as discretionary but I assure the committee that is not the case.

People forget that we are a security as well as a policing agency. The shocking and appalling events of this morning, with the outrageous murder of a prison officer, Mr. David Black, in Northern Ireland, demonstrate there are people on the island of Ireland, on both sides, who do not conform with or subscribe to the democratic process. It is important, therefore, that I have a fund available to me to allow my officers to operate, particularly along the Border and when dealing with the so called "dissident" IRA. The new rostering arrangement, where there are greater numbers of people on the streets at the time of greatest demand, does not always cater for the unique sort of duty the Garda Síochána must fulfil. Many of them were adverted to earlier, we have all sorts of public order issues - demonstrations at Shell to Sea, Shannon Airport and Occupy Dame Street, and animal rights and similar groups to police, over and above our normal complement.

Add to that our international, European and national responsibilities in the context of State security and preventing attacks against this State and Northern Ireland. We have been extremely busy on that front over a number of weeks, particularly in the last three months. That is why when focusing on overtime, I must have that spend available to me over and above normal wages and salaries. That is the real point I am making.

Photo of Paschal DonohoePaschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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I am not for a moment suggesting the best possible use is not being made of it or that it should not be there and I join Mr. Callinan in condemning the horrific murder this morning.

For the purposes of this hearing, we have explored the question of when an allowance is an allowance and what that means. It is an interesting observation for the purpose of the work we are doing that an allowance within the Garda Síochána can include overtime but for others we have had in, it is seen as something completely different.

Mr. P. J. Stone:

We would consider overtime a cheap form of work. If we did not have a moratorium on recruitment and took in X number of people, could we arrive at a day when overtime would not be an issue? It is my vision that the force would not require overtime to provide a policing service. Equally, if the overtime bill for the Garda Síochána is €220 million or €10 million, 80% of that goes back into Government coffers, which must be recognised in the context of the overall spend. I take the point and I said at the outset that there is a need for some of these allowances to be addressed in a different way.

Photo of Paschal DonohoePaschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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I would also point out that overtime for the gardaí is not pensionable, in comparison to other allowances we have seen elsewhere.

Mr. P. J. Stone:

A garda has no choice but to work overtime if directed by the Garda Commissioner.

Photo of Paschal DonohoePaschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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Absolutely.

We have seen three different examples of the different allowances that are in place. There are allowances in recognition of someone doing a greater amount of work, allowances that are in fact expenses and allowances that are used to compensate people for very specific work. I want to illustrate the second with the business case submitted to the committee. Number 12, which refers to the plain clothes allowance, is entirely appropriate. Where people go undercover or do work where they cannot wear their uniform, they should get an allowance for that. This, however, is to cover an expense someone incurs in doing their work and that is quite different from some of the other allowances we have discussed here. How is something like this paid? Does it go into the weekly wage or is it paid at the end of the year?

Mr. Martin Callinan:

It is a weekly allowance for certain people who work in plain clothes along the lines described by the Deputy, a detective being an obvious example, or others performing specialised duties, such as the technical bureau, fingerprints, ballistics, photography and scenes of crime officers. Those people would not be supplied with clothing and equipment ordinarily.

Photo of Paschal DonohoePaschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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The detective allowance on page 21 covers expenses where someone engages in social activity to do his job as a detective. He is paid an amount per week to cover those expenses. Is that correct?

Mr. Martin Callinan:

Absolutely.

Photo of Paschal DonohoePaschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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How is the rent allowance worked out? Does everyone get the same regardless of where they work? If I live in Dublin city do I get the same as someone living in an area where rent is cheaper?

Mr. Martin Callinan:

Yes. It is a negotiated allowance that is fixed.

Photo of Paschal DonohoePaschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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Is it a national allowance regardless of where someone is located?

Mr. Martin Callinan:

Yes.

Mr. P. J. Stone:

On the rent allowance, the Conroy commission, the first commission to look at the pay and conditions of the Garda Síochána in the history of the State, inextricably linked the rent allowance to pay and since that commission, it has formed a part of pay. It carries with it normal round increases when there are increases of pay but to use the terrible phrase "benchmarking", it did not bring with it the 5% awarded to my rank under benchmarking. Rent allowance did not increase at that time.

Photo of Paschal DonohoePaschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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What is the relativity between an allowance like that and basic pay? When pay increases, does the allowance go up and does the converse happen?

Mr. P. J. Stone:

Exactly. When we had a reduction in pay, the rent allowance was reduced. Rent is now inextricably linked in respect of the Conroy commission and Mr. Louden Ryan and thereafter the public service arbitrator made rent pensionable in 1982. There is no question that it is part of pay but it stands alone which raises the questions being asked by the Deputy and others about its relationship to pay. It is part of pay and it is mirrored in the Defence Forces with the military service allowance, which is almost akin to the rent allowance for the Garda Síochána. That was done to give members of the Defence Forces a pay increase under the guise of a military service allowance.

Photo of John DeasyJohn Deasy (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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The comment that got my attention was in Mr. Redmond's opening statement and was echoed by Mr. Stone and the Commissioner.

Mr. Redmond said that when we talk about public sector allowances, the message is often delivered through the media in very general terms. I agree and take it this means in some cases, such as policing or teaching, the critical and unique circumstances are lost. I met some representatives from the INTO in my constituency office this morning and they were able to make some very good arguments for some of the allowances they receive currently. On the comment made by Mr. Stone, regarding €46,000 for someone who has served nine years, I read in a newspaper over the weekend that I was earning €235,000. This was interesting and echoes what Mr. Stone said.

We are looking at the whole scale of allowances and it is therefore very useful for us to deal with an organisation where the system of allowances is not over elaborate. I compare it with the Department of Education and Skills, for example, where there are probably from 350 to 400 allowances which have built up over time and amount to a sum of over €600 million. I realise education is a huge area compared to the Garda Síochána.

It is useful for us to figure out how allowances evolved. I am a bit of an allowance geek or wonk and have some questions on this. What is the Garda experience of the creation of allowances, from the point of view of both the union and management? Have the witnesses been involved in the creation of an allowance within the organisation and can they give a specific example? I am also interested in how it is determined an allowance becomes pensionable. Perhaps the Commissioner will start with that.

3:20 pm

Mr. Martin Callinan:

I personally have not been involved in any of the negotiations at conciliation and arbitration. However, I suppose this goes back to my earlier remarks regarding allowances and where they came from and from where they originated. The gentlemen on my left, who represent the bulk of the active service operatives on the ground, would from time to time, having listened to their members, bring to the table issues around allowances and would feel it is legitimate for them to raise at the conciliation and arbitration table the issue of a particular allowance for a particular cadre of officers. That is where the discussion takes place. All of the stakeholders -----

Photo of John DeasyJohn Deasy (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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How does that work from the start? Would Mr. Stone contact someone in the Phoenix Park and initiate discussions with regard to something?

Mr. P. J. Stone:

With regard to how it works in practice, first I must justify whether a claim should be formulated. I do not want to pick out a particular claim because we are not here to negotiate, but in order to give a flavour of what happens, I will take the example of a claim for dog handlers. I would present that position to the Department of Justice and a conciliation meeting would be called, where we present our case in respect of that group of people. The arguments around that case are very simple, in that these people have the dog in their care 365 days a year. They are responsible for that dog when they go on holidays, must bring that dog home and must feed that dog. There are a number of issues involved there. The case is set out and examined in minutiae by the Departments of Justice and Finance. Then after long discussion the criteria for paying that allowance are agreed. That is then forwarded to the Commissioner, who must accept or approve each payment.

Photo of John DeasyJohn Deasy (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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The Commissioner approves the payment, after the Departments of Justice and Finance go through it. They make the recommendation. Is that correct?

Mr. P. J. Stone:

Yes, absolutely.

Photo of John DeasyJohn Deasy (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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A dog handler then gets €53.40 per week. Is that the allowance?

Mr. P. J. Stone:

Yes.

Photo of John DeasyJohn Deasy (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Stone mentioned a radio technician allowance. How did that allowance become pensionable?

Mr. P. J. Stone:

First, allowances are divided into either pay allowances or non-pay allowances. Non-pay allowances do not increase with increases in pay, but pay allowances do. Some pay allowances are pensionable, but others are no longer pensionable as a result of a recent decision by the Revenue Commissioners. I will not go into that, because it relates to the issue of plain clothes, detective allowance etc. Detective allowance, for example, is not a pensionable allowance. It is a non-pay allowance, but it is taxable. Normally, allowances which carried an element of taxation became pay allowances for the purposes of pension. The decision on whether allowances are pensionable are a result of Labour Court decisions, not just as a result of the conciliation mechanism available to the Garda Síochána. However, this does not apply to the detective allowance, which though taxable is not pensionable.

How the radio technician allowance became pensionable relates to the case we had to make. The Department of Justice tried to civilianise the radio technician system and we had no difficulty with that. We had a number of people employed and they were going to continue to be employed. However, under the Minister of the day at the time there was an embargo on recruitment. When the advertisement went out originally and the pay levels were presented, they were the same levels payable to members of the Garda, but there were no applicants. Therefore, the allowance was introduced to sweeten the offer for civilians who at the time were probably being paid a lot better in the private sector. That is how that allowance evolved.

Photo of John DeasyJohn Deasy (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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In examining this I am not going to say that a particular allowance should or should not exist or is undeserved. However, I take it from the last paragraph of the Commissioner's statement that he believes many of these allowances should be subsumed into pay and that the system is probably not the best system, but that it evolved over time and should probably have been done a little differently. That is my understanding from what I have heard so far. There is no major issue on this side, generally speaking, with regard to allowances provided by the Garda. It is a question of understanding how the organisation deals with the issue of allowances as an organisation.

The Commissioner mentioned the issue of civilianisation in his opening remarks. The Comptroller and Auditor General has been involved in this issue for some time and has noted the lack of progress on civilianisation within the force. Currently, the ratio is 7:1, whereas in comparable police forces it would be about 4:1. The reasons for the lack of progress include the fact the Garda Síochána is involved in security and the moratorium. Are they the only reasons this has moved at such a slow pace over the years? Is there not some other reason?

Mr. Martin Callinan:

We have made good progress in more recent times on civilianisation. The inspectorate's report shows that at senior command level, perhaps two out seven recommendations have not yet been brought to fruition. That said, work is in progress on bringing about those final two positions. In the wider context, we have over 2,000 civilians now. The employment control framework, ECF, level is 2,074 and we are at approximately 2,031. The moratorium is hampering issues around civilianisation. That said, I can point out that the Garda vetting unit, for example, in Thurles is very heavily populated with a civilian cadre. Of the 80 personnel there, some 75 or so are civilians. In more recent times, command and control, the radio system in Dublin which is based in Harcourt Square, has been hugely civilianised. In the Garda information services centre, GISC, in Castlebar, we imported a number of staff from the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine who at the time were being sent to different areas. Many areas of the Garda Síochána are now populated with civilian support.

There is currently, under our transformation programme, an assistant commissioner working on the whole area of civilianisation, and work is at an advanced stage. Typically, what we are trying to do with these reduced numbers and with the indication that the moratorium is likely to be here for some time yet, is to ensure that the skill set within the cadres of civilian members is in the right place at the right time. In other words, we are trying to ensure there is an organisational fit with the individuals. That is work that is long overdue within the organisation. It is exceedingly difficult to go beyond the moratorium at present. We would dearly love to be down around a ratio of 3:1, which is the international norm.

3:30 pm

Photo of John DeasyJohn Deasy (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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During Mr. Callinan's opening statement he made some very relevant comments regarding where the force is today. He spoke about the policing plan and its objectives and efficiencies and effectiveness in resource allocation and deployment so as to enhance the policing service. He spoke about doing a lot more with less and making the organisation as efficient and productive as possible, as well as achieving organisational reform. There are a lot of challenges in all of that. The gardaí have changed and the new rostering system has proven that the force can change effectively. We are in a situation in which, as a nation, we are changing because we are in an economic crisis. Every organisation and Department is in that frame right now.

With the Chairman's indulgence, I raised an issue with the Secretary General of the Department of Justice and Equality, Mr. Brian Purcell, when he was here last week - namely, the proposed plan to close a large number of rural Garda stations. It is important, if we go down this road, that this is presented carefully to the public, particularly to those living in rural areas who are used to having a Garda station in their communities. As I said last week, when such people, having heard that their town councils, local banks and post offices would close, hear that their Garda station will also close, will be very concerned. If the plan is to reorganise in order to effect better policing - and having spoken to the chief superintendent in my area, that seems to be the plan - then that must be presented very carefully and clearly to the public when the list of stations to close, which could be more than 80, is published. This is not a criticism, but my experience of the force is that it is sometimes very focused. It is no reflection on Mr. Callinan, but there have been times in the past when it has had tunnel vision in the sense that it sets out its goal and does not consider the peripheral issues that need to be explained to the public. The force needs to be careful in how it presents this programme of closures. Obviously, personal issues will change with regard to this plan coming into force but I ask Mr. Callinan to comment on my concern regarding how this is presented and explained to people, if it is a plan to make policing more effective, particularly in rural areas.

Photo of John McGuinnessJohn McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy has engineered that question much better than last week.

Photo of John DeasyJohn Deasy (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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I have learned.

Mr. Martin Callinan:

It is incumbent on me to answer, so.

Photo of John DeasyJohn Deasy (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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I put a lot of effort into it.

Mr. Martin Callinan:

I thank the Deputy for his question. We are painfully conscious of all of the sensitivities around station closures. Indeed, just last week we had the bi-annual commissioners' conference in Templemore, where I assembled all of my senior command, from chief superintendent up, sworn and non-sworn. It was a two-day conference and the first day was largely occupied by the issue of station closures and the type of policing service that we could provide into the future when X number of stations would close. The second day was spent dealing with the corporate strategy. As members will know, we are obliged under the Garda Síochána Act to provide a three-year corporate strategy and within that, an annual policing plan that services each individual year of the strategy until it is completed. Any change to a district, division or boundary of the Garda Síochána must to be included in the annual policing plan and those plans and the corporate strategy are placed before the Houses of the Oireachtas. That is the legal aspect of the issue.

Implicit in all of the discussions is how policing will look into the future with reduced resources, both financial and human. Obviously, we have given careful consideration to a number of stations that have closed already and the closures that will happen in the new year. We have, from the centre, pushed out through the organisation, through the assistant commissioners, down through the chief superintendents, down to the ground, to involve as many stakeholders as possible in the discussion as to what stations might usefully be subsumed into the station closure programme. That has filtered all the way back up and we are at an advanced stage of planning now. I will be in a position in the coming weeks to provide the Minister with my recommendations with regard to closure.

However, the points raised by the Deputy concerning the programme and the sensitivities that are involved were very much on our minds when we were discussing the topic over the last few days. Central to it is communication both with the public and with our own organisation when we have established what stations are going to close. Typically, we were discussing the type of service that will be available to communities in the areas where the stations will close and what that service will look like after closure. The plan has always been to improve the efficiency and effectiveness of the organisation and is not, as I have indicated previously, a cost-saving exercise for the State, although there will obviously be savings. I am on the record as indicating that somewhere between €2,500 and €4,000 would be a typical maintenance bill for stations, so that money will be saved. However, in the overall context, it is not about savings but about providing a blueprint for future policing. That is what we are aiming for and I am absolutely subscribed, to the last scintilla, to the points raised by the Deputy regarding communication. However, before we get there we must establish which stations it may be appropriate to close.

A lot of this work is running in tandem with the new rostering arrangements and undoubtedly there will be a requirement to cluster some resources in order to provide the service. I was clear in saying to my officers that I did not want a situation to arise in which, if a particular Garda station was generally open in a particular area for a particular number of hours in a week, we would not match that service in that area at those times. Then, beyond that, we must have a clear and succinct policing plan to follow the various trends, particularly in the area of crime, and meet the challenge of reducing crime in those areas. Communication is very much a part of our programme.

Photo of John DeasyJohn Deasy (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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We are in a time of massive uncertainty and I am particularly concerned about elderly people in rural areas. When an announcement such as the closure of a Garda station is made it increases their uncertainty, and the normal route or standard of communication will not be adequate in this situation.

That is why there should be an additional level of communication, double what we are used to, to inform people about what is going on. It should focus on letting people know and explaining to them that the garda who was in their rural station will be utilised better for the community. There should be a heightened sense of communication. That is the critical issue. I go along with some of the sentiments of some of the senior gardaí to whom I have spoken. They have suggested many gardaí stationed in rural stations could be utilised better, but how that will take effect must be explained.

3:40 pm

Mr. Martin Callinan:

There are various fora in which to do so. The joint policing committee system is a classic example, as is local radio.

Photo of John DeasyJohn Deasy (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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We do this and engage with them. The important issue from the point of view of the Garda Commissioner's office and the Minister is that it be communicated strongly from that level down. I thank Mr. Callinan for his comments.

Photo of Kieran O'DonnellKieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I welcome the Commissioner and his colleagues. I have had a quick look at the allowances. If I am correct, a total of 108 are listed, but it appears that in the order of 50 are live. In the case of 38, nothing was paid; 15 people received one allowance, three received two allowances and four received three allowances. A balance of 50 allowances are relevant to all. Mr. Stone referenced approximately 34 for rank and file gardaí. Is that correct?

Mr. P. J. Stone:

Yes, for members of garda rank.

Photo of Kieran O'DonnellKieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Of the allowances remaining, how many are for the reimbursement of expenses as distinct from being an allowance? One thing that has come up often is that in many cases the descriptions have been in place for years. The bulk of the allowances appear to date back some time. Some date from 1926, while many date from 1970. Are some of the allowances for the reimbursement of expenses as distinct from being allowances? Will the Commissioner provide a quick flavour of the position?

Mr. Martin Callinan:

Certainly, they are not designed for the reimbursement of expenses. These are legitimate claims brought to the table. They are well debated and, as articulated, a recommendation is made to me for sanction to bring them into effect. That is not to say that from time to time there will be a claim for a legitimate expense, but, generally, there is no crossover between the allowances and a claim for expenses.

Photo of Kieran O'DonnellKieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Does Mr. Stone understand the point I am making?

Mr. P. J. Stone:

I do, but in some instances some of the arguments made in respect of the application of an allowance relate to members having expended money to reach a particular competence in order to be eligible for appointment to a section. I offer one case in point. One must reach a particular level of expertise and be regarded as an expert witness before the courts to be a scene of crime examiner. In some instances members undertake the training themselves. This can be proved and it has been shown in the cases we have made to the council that gardaí have expended their own money to bring themselves up to the level of competency required. Equally, the Garda Síochána has provided specific training to ensure the level of training they receive is also within the parameters of the law. In a general way we make the case that the allowances payable are, in one sense, for the reimbursement of money they have spent, but it is not something reimbursed in the longer term.

Photo of Kieran O'DonnellKieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I had a quick look at the allowances paid to gardaí and the civilian overtime allowance. Some five allowances account for a total of 86% of all allowance costs. Mr. Stone made reference to the boot allowance, but I am not including it. The rent allowance, the night duty allowance, the Saturday allowance, the Sunday allowance and the public holiday allowance combined appear to account for almost 86% of all allowance costs. This is a common thread throughout all the groups that have appeared before us. A small number of allowances account for a high concentration of allowance costs. Clearly, these are core pay. That is the point, although we are repeating ourselves somewhat. It is welcome that we have management and staff representatives present today and I hope this will continue to be the case. It seems to have evolved everywhere. There is a vast amount of allowances, but a small number of recipients for relatively small amounts of money. There is a need for dialogue to reorganise the allowances applied, a matter to which Mr. Stone made reference. The Commissioner made reference to making the Garda more fit for purpose as a modern police force. Will he be examining that aspect?

Mr. Martin Callinan:

Several points arise. We spoke about the uniqueness of the job done by An Garda Síochána. Within the range of allowances, we are discussing nuances that do not lend themselves to universal application. We have made this point already. One must be careful not to arrive at a situation where one over-subscribes one rank against another. We discussed the issue of inspectors and the fact that 36.7% of their gross wage was made up of allowances. If it was to be ordained in the morning that the cadre of allowances to which Deputy O'Donnell is referring should be subsumed into pay, one could easily arrive at a situation where one would have an inspector on a higher salary than an superintendent. One could see attendant difficulties in that case. The matter requires careful consideration, but I would not go beyond that.

Photo of Kieran O'DonnellKieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I have one final question.

Mr. P. J. Stone:

I wish to caution against the idea that if one were to subsume the allowances of-----

Photo of Kieran O'DonnellKieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I am only talking about the top five or six allowances.

Mr. P. J. Stone:

One must be careful when one is referring to allowances paid because gardaí work unsocial hours. Bringing these allowances into core pay could have the effect of increasing pay levels throughout the Garda Síochána and gardaí would be paid for not having to work unsocial hours. The Commissioner must examine this issue in the sense that one must be able to put gardaí out to work tonight from 9 p.m. to 7 a.m. If everyone was on the same level of pay, one might not have the same warmth for such a tour of duty. That is probably one of the principal reasons, no more than in any other occupation, a shift allowance is paid. It compensates for the terrible hours worked outside the norm. It is not as easy to subsume them into pay as one might imagine at the outset.

Photo of Kieran O'DonnellKieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Of the total complement of 108 allowances many are not functional. A total of 20 allowances are listed as variable. Does this mean it depends on the grade of an individual? Is that the basis of it?

Mr. Martin Callinan:

Yes.

Photo of Kieran O'DonnellKieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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My final question relates to the issue of the new rosters coming on stream. Will the Commissioner elaborate on the implications for allowances, the costs of An Garda Síochána and policing? The Garda does an excellent job, but one issue that comes up is that of the number of old-fashioned gardaí on the beat. People still like to see gardaí walking the streets at night. There is great respect for the Garda and generally this is an issue that comes up. Will the Commissioner give us a flavour of the new rostering system and how it fits into the issue of allowances? What are the costs of policing? Will the Commissioner provide an overall flavour of what it means for policing for the ordinary person?

3:50 pm

Mr. Martin Callinan:

It would be remiss of me, as Commissioner, not to take the opportunity to extend my gratitude to the representatives of the associations who are present. They were part of the negotiating team which devised the new agreement. It would be impossible either to understate or overstate the accomplishment of the new rostering arrangement.

Photo of Kieran O'DonnellKieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I congratulate all concerned on that accomplishment.

Mr. Martin Callinan:

I acknowledge the associations' input in this regard.

Photo of Kieran O'DonnellKieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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It was clearly a collective effort.

Mr. Martin Callinan:

Many night duty hours were expended in our efforts to reach a final settlement.

Photo of Kieran O'DonnellKieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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We will have to invent some new allowances to cover such circumstances.

Mr. Martin Callinan:

It is important to acknowledge that for the first time in 40 years we have arrived at a policing programme that will match demand with the availability of gardaí at particular peak or pinch points within the system. Foremost in our minds in these negotiations was the need, given the economic circumstances in which we find ourselves, to devise a cost neutral roster. The essential difference under the new arrangement is that we have five working units rather than four. The benefit in this for the public is that it provides for greater policing visibility, with up to 25% more personnel on the street where that is a requirement at particular times. It is a very useful and valuable development.

The new arrangement does, of course, present its own challenges for the organisation. We are required under the European working time directive to ensure a social or life versus work balance. As part of this, compensatory rest periods must be provided for within the system, which requires careful management. It is a very useful programme of engagement for all our officers, particularly for the ranks represented here. I am confident that it will complement what we are seeking to do in the future in terms of downsizing the organisation and operating without the types of financial and human resources previously available. We are working through a number of industrial relations issues with our colleagues in an effort to reach accommodations. The new system is not particularly easy, but it is in place and functioning. I have spoken to members throughout the country, all of whom are very happy in principle with the arrangement now in place. There are, however, issues that must be worked out by management in terms of the governance of the organisation. The policing footprint for the future will be determined by the success of this new working arrangement.

Photo of Kieran O'DonnellKieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Perhaps Mr. Stone and Mr. Redmond might comment.

Mr. P. J. Stone:

I am broadly in agreement with the Commissioner on the new rostering arrangement. There is a particular issue that is of concern to us, relating to attendance at courts. It is an issue that is outside our control, as, no doubt, it is also outside the control of the committee. The difficulty arises when members of the Garda Síochána who, for example, finish work at 7 a.m. have to hang around, because they have long distances to commute, before they go to court with a remand prisoner. It is unacceptable, in this day and age, that there are no night courts, which would do away with the need to pay staff overtime to attend court sittings during the day. However, we have no control over this matter. It is an issue that must be addressed as a matter of urgency in order that gardaí can finish work in the morning, go home and spend time with their families and get the rest they require. The idea that they should have to stay on their feet for another three hours, for which they are not paid, is nonsensical. This is a different argument, however, and the one bugbear I have regarding the new rostering arrangement. The courts are a law unto themselves, but this issue must be addressed in the context of policing.

Mr. John Redmond:

Our members worked very hard, with management, to arrive at an acceptable position on revised working arrangements under the structure set out in the Croke Park agreement. It is a pilot arrangement and has been in operation since the end of April. It has one year to run, during which time it will be evaluated and feedback will be taken from members of all ranks. In general, the feedback thus far has been positive, but there are some aspects which need to be addressed. I am sure more issues will emerge as time passes, but it is probably a case of tweaking rather than a requirement for any major change. All of this will become apparent as the months go on. It is very important from our members' point of view that for the first time ever, the European working time directive is in operation within the Garda organisation. The new arrangement will ensure members who have worked very hard and for extended periods will have adequate time to rest before resuming their duties. As far as we are concerned, the new arrangement is mostly positive and we are delighted to have been involved in negotiating it under the auspices of the Croke Park agreement.

Mr. Martin Callinan:

We are working very hard with our partners in the Courts Service, the Irish Prison Service and elsewhere, under the integrated reform development plan, IRDP, aspect of the Croke Park agreement, to address some of the points raised by colleagues. I have no doubt we will get there in the end.

Photo of Kieran O'DonnellKieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I wish Mr. Callinan and his colleagues well.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome the delegates. Will the Commissioner indicate the eight allowances for priority elimination to which he referred in his opening statement?

Mr. Martin Callinan:

They are the clerical allowance which incorporates a temporary allowance - two rates apply; the Gaeltacht allowance; the promotion examination allowance; the transport allowance which, like the clerical allowance, incorporates certain nuances; the change management allowance; the examination bonus allowance; the bicycle allowance; and the Aran Islands allowance.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Will Mr. Callinan indicate the purpose of the change management allowance? I understand 13 individuals are in receipt of this allowance of more than €6,000 per annum.

Mr. Martin Callinan:

Change management is a section within Garda headquarters which addresses a range of policing issues relating to the transformation and reform agenda under the Croke Park agreement and the Garda response to a changing environment, GRACE, programme. These are highly qualified personnel who are devoting their time in that section to identifying better efficiencies within Garda operations and practice. They do not qualify for the other allowances we have been discussing. In other words, this is a once-off allowance for working in the section. These are highly specialised staff.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Are the 13 individuals gardaí or civilians?

Mr. Martin Callinan:

They are gardaí.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Is it an annual allowance?

Mr. Martin Callinan:

Yes.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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What rank are the gardaí?

Mr. Martin Callinan:

They range from chief superintendent down. All ranks are represented among the staff of 13.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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The Commissioner's stated intention is, in accordance with the Croke Park agreement, to initiate reforms, create new efficiencies and maximise service to the public. I am trying to tally this with the intention to eliminate this allowance.

Does Mr. Callinan see from where I am coming? Is there an ongoing rationale in respect of continuing to pay this allowance to the 13 individuals involved, particularly in light of the premium Mr. Callinan clearly attaches to change and change management within the force?

4:00 pm

Mr. Martin Callinan:

Obviously, this will form part of a discussion that is going to take place as a result of what the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform has ordained must happen. I do not think it would be appropriate for me to comment just now because we must discuss matters with our colleagues who are sitting further down the table from us about those allowances . We must also try to reach an accommodation whereby we can facilitate the wishes of the Department, or not.

Photo of John McGuinnessJohn McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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We agreed that we would not go there as part of our analysis of the 88 allowances that are under review in light of the negotiations that are taking place.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I appreciate that. Perhaps I might approach the matter in a slightly different way. If Mr. Callinan was tasked with identifying eight allowances that might be given priority in the context of elimination, would the eight to which I refer have figured?

Mr. Martin Callinan:

I am absolutely satisfied that if the Deputy were in my position, she would not declare her hand in advance of the battle.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Okay.

Mr. Martin Callinan:

Unfortunately, that represents the reality of life.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I appreciate the position in which the Commissioner finds himself. Will he outline the situation with regard to the ministerial pool allowance? What is that all about? I presume it does not refer to a swimming pool for Ministers.

Mr. Martin Callinan:

It relates to a cadre of people at Garda headquarters who are deployed to drive Ministers at different times. There is a Government order in place now which dictates who has a State car. Within that, there is a small cadre of people who relieve those who are out sick, on holidays or whatever. This allowance was brought in a number of years ago-----

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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In 1994.

Mr. Martin Callinan:

-----in lieu of huge amounts of overtime that would have to be paid to individuals assigned to Ministers. If a person begins work with a Minister at 7 a.m. and if the latter does not finish work until 2 a.m. the following day or whatever, that individual must remain with the Minister. It is not possible to start chopping and changing if one is working down the country or whatever. This allowance was introduced in lieu of overtime.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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What are the costs associated with this allowance? It is stated that there are 34 recipients but in the context of the range of payments involved, the word "variable" is used. Will Mr. Callinan shed more light on the cost to the taxpayer of this driving service?

Mr. Martin Callinan:

Will the Deputy indicate the number of the allowance to which she is referring?

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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It is No. 18.

Mr. Martin Callinan:

The number of people in receipt is 34.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I am just trying to obtain an indication of the costs relating to the allowance.

Mr. P. J. Stone:

It depends on the payscale.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I appreciate that. I am seeking to obtain information on the overall cost of the allowance.

Photo of John McGuinnessJohn McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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If the Deputy looks at her screen she will see that it is in excess of €1 million.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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That is a great deal of money, is it not? It is interesting that this allowance is not on the list of eight for consideration.

Mr. Martin Callinan:

The Deputy may find that it is interesting-----

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I do. I also find it intriguing.

Mr. Martin Callinan:

Okay.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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In the context of the number of these allowances that are active or in payment, the list indicates that there are zero recipients in respect of 35 of the 108 allowances. That is interesting. Nos. 64 and 65 relate to the delegates allowance. I notice that Nos. 97 and 98 on the list also refer to delegates allowances. The rates involved are different. I am seeking Mr. Callinan's assistance in respect of this matter. I do not know whether there has been duplication on the list or if there are separate delegates allowances.

Mr. Martin Callinan:

If the Deputy looks at Nos. 97 and 98, which refer to superintendent commissioners, the payment listed is €80.65 each night.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Yes.

Mr. Martin Callinan:

That is replicated for chairpersons as well.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, I appreciate that. The sole abolition for incumbents relates to this delegates allowance. Do Nos. 97 and 98 still obtain? I am aware that there are zero recipients in respect of the allowance. Is the allowance still in place?

Mr. Martin Callinan:

No, it has been abolished.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. That is not clear from the documentation. I thank Mr. Callinan for clarifying the position.

Not unlike other entities which have been before the committee, the Garda Síochána is suffering to some extent on foot of the fact that these allowances developed in an ad hoc way. Mr. Stone made his organisation's position very clear, particularly in respect of the rent allowance and the fact that this forms part of core pay. The parallel he drew with the Defence Forces in this regard was extremely accurate. When the bicycle allowance was discussed earlier, it brought to mind Flann O'Brien's novel The Third Policeman. I do not know if the Commissioner has read that book. There is a consensus view among those on the opposite side of the table that what is needed is some form of consolidation in respect of the pay system. The Minister has indicated that such a consolidation will be worked towards. Has the Minister engaged in discussions with the Commissioner in respect of timeframe relating to the process of bringing rent allowance and other allowances within the umbrella of core pay?

Mr. Martin Callinan:

Again, a great deal will depend on the outcome of the discussions we will be having with the representative associations in respect of the allowances that are required to be eliminated and those which are required to be reviewed. There are different categories in respect of existing allowances and allowances for people who will come into the organisation in the future. I am sure that is a debate which is going to continue for quite some time.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Does the Commissioner have a position, in principle, in respect of the matter? Leaving aside its finer details, does he see the sense in consolidating the position?

Mr. Martin Callinan:

I certainly do in respect of some of the allowances. However, I have already explained the huge difficulty that would arise in trying to consolidate some of the others. There would be inequality in trying to reach a universal threshold within some of the allowances. For particular ranks there would be particular inequalities. That has already been articulated by Mr. Stone.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I accept this is not relevant at present because Templemore is not in operation and new recruits are not being taken on. However, where would potential new entrants stand vis-à-vis those who are currently serving members of the force? Does the Commissioner accept that the former would be at a disadvantage in the context of pay?

Mr. Martin Callinan:

The starting point is establishing, in the first instance, the allowances that will not be available to them. Of course, they would be in a position of financial disadvantage if certain allowances were not available to them. That is a given. The Government has not provided any indication that recruitment will take place in the foreseeable future. So the matter simply has not arisen. Templemore is very much open for business and there are a number of courses ongoing at the facility. Just last week representatives from the European Police College, CEPOL, were in Templemore to take part in a course.

A number of courses feature regularly such as firearms, driving, and continuous professional development. Courses of that nature are a continuum in the college, albeit at a reduced capacity. None the less, the lights are on and we are open for business.

4:10 pm

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Callinan referred in his opening statement to the imperative of doing more with less. There comes a point when that argument runs out of rope because there is a stage at which not alone can one not do more with less but one cannot even do the necessities. Therefore, recruitment will be re-opened at some stage. Would it pose an operational difficulty for the Commissioner if he were to have a differentiation between current serving gardaí and new recruits in respect of the kind of pay and allowances to which they are entitled? Would it present a difficulty in terms of management or morale?

Mr. Martin Callinan:

That is a possibility for the future. If that turns out to be the position, there may or may not be difficulties. It is something that would have to be managed within that parameter. I would be confident if recruitment were to open up tomorrow morning that people would batter down the gates to get in, regardless of the conditions. None of us knows, but if it is the case that people are operating on different pay scales that is something for management to deal with at a given time. I could not go beyond that.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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As the person who is in charge of the force and is answerable to Government, from a simple managerial perspective would it not cause Mr. Callinan concern that such a differential would open up? It would certainly complicate his task.

Mr. Martin Callinan:

Yes, it would absolutely complicate it, but if that is the situation, then it would have to be managed. If that were the case, then I would have no alternative as Commissioner but to get on with the situation and manage it with my senior officers.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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None the less, I am sure Mr. Callinan, as the person charged with the most senior management responsibility, would prefer if such a scenario were not to play out.

Mr. Martin Callinan:

Absolutely.

Mr. P. J. Stone:

The Deputy raised an interesting point. The matter has been approached badly in terms of the Garda Síochána in the sense that one will create major difficulties when one brings in new recruits. Whatever about keeping them on a pay level for a certain period, if one does not bring them into the fold, one will create major difficulties and relativities because in respect of the new pay arrangements, people will be choking each other to get promoted because, once they are promoted they go onto the scale of serving sergeants or inspectors. This has been very badly thought out. One could, perhaps, understand brand new scales being introduced to start on a particular day in order that people would know what they were buying into, right up to the rank of Commissioner, but the way the system has been approached is mistaken. The big problem is that there was a lack of understanding about the fact that in some other sections of the public sector, people move onto different grades and therefore the pay scales take care of themselves. In respect of the Garda Síochána, the young men and women who should be recruited immediately to provide a policing service must be treated with fairness and equity. If that is allowed to proceed, while people might break down the door to get recruited, they will not be long in the Garda Síochána when there will be levels of dissatisfaction that will be difficult to contain. Now is the time to get it right before another forum such as this has to return in ten or 15 years time to address a major problem.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Mr. Stone. Such a division has opened up between incumbents and new entrants in terms of the new pension regime for the public sector. It creates precisely the kind of difficulty Mr. Stone has just described. For those charged not just with managing the force but building morale, and in particular in the kind of climate in which the Garda currently operates, it is most undesirable and unhelpful to have such a differential opening up. I hope that in the privacy of his discussions with the Minister the Commissioner will consider asserting that point because it is entirely lost on the Minister.

I was struck by Mr. Redmond’s initial commentary where he said that the pay cuts for members have been of the magnitude of 20%. I raise the matter because the figure commonly asserted in respect of pay in the public service is 14%. Could he elaborate on the figure of 20% and how he arrived at it?

Mr. John Redmond:

I can. The cut is in the region of 20%. First, let us take the 6% that was to be paid as a result of the Towards 2016 agreement that was not paid and will not be paid. That is a fact. That is 6%. The general pay cut was 7%. The pay allowances cut was 5%. Subsidies and travel in the organisation have been cut by 25%. The pension related deduction is now 10.25%. The universal social charge is 5%. I again refer to the unpaid pay increase of 6%. The cuts are all different. As percentages go they add up to far more than 20%, but they are not all pay cuts. In the round it is between 20% and 25% of a pay cut that we have experienced overall.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Is there a differential between the ranks or do the cuts affect all ranks across the board? Perhaps Mr. Stone could assist with the response as well.

Mr. John Redmond:

All members of the Garda organisation suffered the same cuts. At a senior level there was a slight difference in the way the cut was arrived at, but that is a different matter. Those of us at sergeant or inspector level took those cuts in pay and associated allowances.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Mr. Redmond. I do not know if you will allow the question, Chairman, but I will chance it. In the discussion around the rationalisation of Garda stations, the Commissioner made the point forcefully that it is not a cost-cutting initiative and that it is about reconfiguring the policing footprint, or words to that effect. From the point of view of the public it is and will be commonly understood as a fairly crude cost-cutting measure. It will affect the confidence of communities who take heart from the fact that not only does the Garda Síochána exist but that it is close at hand in an identifiable location. The Commissioner has set out his position. I would like to hear what Mr. Stone and Mr. Redmond make of the initiative to rationalise and close Garda stations.

Mr. P. J. Stone:

This is one point in the whole discussion on which there will probably not be agreement in terms of our position and that of the Garda Commissioner. We are very clear in our policy on the matter. We feel it is a retrograde step and it will come back to haunt us. The manner in which the matter has been taken on board should be examined in the context of an overall policing plan. The Garda Commissioner is charged with the responsibility of running the force; I am not. If I were, however, I would not close Garda stations. I have said that on public record.

Mr. John Redmond:

There is a challenge in continuing to provide a professional service if the decision is arrived at to close more Garda stations. People expect a police service to be provided and are entitled to one. It is important they are consulted.

Their views and questions on how their neighbourhoods and communities will be policed ought to be taken on board following any proposed closures of stations. As was pointed out, rightly, by the Commissioner, the savings are not excessive so there will not be a bag of money at the end of this process for anyone. This is especially the case when, instead of maintaining a Garda station somewhere, another arrangement will be put in place whereby a community hall or other venue will be used to provide the service that would otherwise have been provided through the Garda station. I have yet to be convinced that the aspects of the plan will work such that the community will be policed in the manner it deserves. As representatives of first-line supervisors and first-line managers, we look forward to being informed and asked our opinion on the likely impact on our members. I look forward to having those discussions in due course.

4:20 pm

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Have those discussions not commenced?

Mr. John Redmond:

At certain levels, they have commenced. Our people's views will come on board. Some views have been made known to our association to date and we have passed them on unofficially. We look forward to engaging in official discussions on how the issues we envisage on the ground will be dealt with.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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The Commissioner indicated there would be a decision or proposal on this matter within a number of weeks. Am I correct in assuming that? Will there be discussions with the staff representative bodies prior to or after the decision? How does the Commissioner envisage the process playing out?

Mr. Martin Callinan:

I have indicated how the process started and is working. The call to formulate plans regarding the stations prioritised for closure went out from the centre, that is, my office, to the various assistant commissioners and chief superintendents, and it filtered down to the divisions and districts. Information subsequently came all the way back up. Following that, we began the process of examining the footprint in each of the stations. A range of products came into play in the context of the consideration of the closure of the stations.

The point must be made, however, that this is a matter of managing with very limited funding. It is about managing resources to the optimum. Garda stations are buildings. If the members of An Garda Síochána are not doing in a very proactive manner the type of work they are supposed to be doing, we will not have the types of efficiencies and effectiveness I spoke about. I am not for a moment diminishing the perception and reality represented in the various communities. Of course, we are alive to the sensitivities of all the communities in terms of the closure of Garda stations in the context of closures of post offices, banks, and so on. This is a matter of putting in place a policing model that will replicate the system that obtained previously and which will, I hope, go beyond that. It is question of smart, intelligence-led policing that will grapple with the types of problems that exist. In a considerable number of the stations we are examining, there was no presence greater than one or two hours per week. That reflects reality, I am afraid. One must park this against the perception of taking down the Garda sign on the wall and what this represents for the community.

One of the Deputies raised the issue of elderly people and the fear of crime. Of course, communication is vital, and that is why the substantive portion of the discussion we had during the week was on those very subjects and how we, as managers, would formulate plans to compensate for the closure of the stations such that we can provide the type of service we are espousing at the point of closure.

The rest of the discussion, which will be when we have our stall set out, will involve engaging with our colleagues in the associations and the wider community to ensure there is a loud and clear message that we will provide the same service or a better one to the affected communities. That is a given. It would be foolish to embark on a course of action resulting, intentionally or otherwise, in the failure to provide a service of the type that already exists. It would be folly. As a consequence of all the closures, there will be a cost saving. I have indicated the type of variation that might obtain.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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The Commissioner stated typical figures range from €2,500 to €4,000.

Mr. Martin Callinan:

That is the band range associated with the cost of maintaining the stations. In the overall context, however, it is very small money when one considers cost savings. Of course, it will be perceived that this is another cost-saving exercise.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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A cut.

Mr. Martin Callinan:

However, that is not the case. I would not go down the road of embarking on a number of station closures if I felt it were the wrong course of action.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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If the Commissioner believed it were the correct course of action, he would argue for keeping stations open. Rather than having a presence of one or two hours per day or whatever presence skeleton staffing requirements necessitate, he would argue for a greater resource and presence and a lifting of the embargo.

Mr. Martin Callinan:

No, that is not what I am saying.

Photo of John McGuinnessJohn McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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We are getting into the finer detail of what the Commissioner will present to the Minister. We are crossing over into policy.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I know he is not going to refer to policy.

Mr. Martin Callinan:

Essentially, what I am saying is that I would not go down the road of station closures if I felt it were the wrong approach. There will be a requirement on us to engage more smartly in our approach to policing and policing plans. It is a question of intelligence-led policing. I understand the fears that exist in communities and the concerns of colleagues and their representatives who are present today. However, we must engage with reality, unfortunately. We must put our best foot forward and operate according to the model of intelligence-led and smart policing that will produce the best results. If this means having a cadre of people available to be out on patrol to tackle those who are committing crimes rather than having one person in a police station for a couple of hours on his or her own, it must be examined. We need to have a cadre of people available to tackle criminals. We need a very smart plan in place to deal with the issues that arise locally and nationally as we move the process forward.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the Commissioner and the representatives of the Association of Garda Sergeants and Inspectors and the Garda Representative Association.

The general issues have been well discussed so I will ask specific questions. Do many members of the force have to use their own cars and telephones? What is the position on mobile telephones? Perhaps I am wrong but I often assume gardaí use their own private telephones in the course of their duties. While I realise there are unmarked cars, which I will not describe and whose drivers might be confused with joyriders on occasion, I am under the impression that gardaí must use their own cars sometimes. In the context of allowances, what is the arrangement? Is there an allowance for using one's own car? Must one write down every single use of a car? Can the delegates talk about this and the mobile telephone issue?

Mr. Martin Callinan:

There are such occasions but they are few in number. There are occasions when people would apply to the authorities to use their car on duty. I will not discuss the operational reasons. Generally speaking, these cases are the exception rather than the rule. We will have heard a lot of talk and speculation in the media about the fleet and the unavailability of cars, and so on, but it is important to point out the position on vehicles. I acknowledge and thank the Government, including the Minister, for providing me with €3 million to purchase 171 vehicles this year. They will be available very early next year to assist in what is certainly becoming a difficult fleet to manage given the age profile.

That said, we have had 37 cars brought on stream in May in addition to the 171, so one is looking at 208 vehicles in the past 12 months. That is something for which I am very grateful in the context of the economic climate in which we find ourselves. It will go some way towards assisting in managing an ageing fleet. The fleet is something which must be worked on year on year or else it will be quickly depleted. We have been managing over the last couple of years to get vehicles, albeit in small numbers, but we have still managed to get those and we are very grateful for that. I am working hard with the Minister and the Department to try to provide a funding stream into the future to replace some of the other vehicles, so there are works in progress. There are certainly challenges for Garda management in providing transport for some of the operations for which we would like to provide transport. That said, we have not yet reached the point where vehicles have become such an issue that we are unable to conduct our business very efficiently. If one looks at the crime statistics right across the board, they are showing a reduction at all levels.

4:30 pm

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Would the Garda computer system know how many individual gardaí used their own cars in the course of the past 12 months? The Commissioner said a request is made so they obviously have to get paid for that.

Mr. Martin Callinan:

Sure.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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There must be a record. Was it 20 gardaí or 300 gardaí?

Mr. Martin Callinan:

I would not have figures.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Would it be reasonable to see if someone has those figures?

Mr. Martin Callinan:

We could certainly try to get those.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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It is just to give us an indication. The Commissioner said it is the exception, and we all presume it is, but there is a perception that it is happening. Perhaps the public is confusing unmarked cars with the private cars of gardaí. I can understand that but perhaps it is not as exceptional as it used to be. Let us put it that way. Will the Commissioner also comment on the mobile telephones issue?

Mr. Martin Callinan:

As regards mobile telephones, the Deputy will be aware that we have invested heavily - to the tune of €40 million per annum - in a secure Tetra radio network. That has facilities for contacting the Garda information system, for example. It also provides a secure network for communicating with colleagues. Indeed, it has proven to be very useful in the past when members were under attack because there is an alarm button on it.

However, people have used mobile telephones of their own choice. Before we came to the full roll-out of the Tetra radio system, there may have been times when members might have been using their own telephones. However, that is a personal choice for members.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Does every member of the force now have the Tetra radio system?

Mr. Martin Callinan:

Yes. In fact, we have more than enough, I am afraid. It is something that is a matter in progress at the moment. We are discussing with Government colleagues the need to reduce the number of radios. As the Deputy is aware, the Tetra system provided for the blue light service, so the ambulance and fire brigade are catered for within that cadre. Given the levels at which we are now operating, we certainly do not need that number of radios. There is a cost involved, which we are trying to reduce.

Mr. Willie Gleeson:

I agree with what the Commissioner has said about our digital radio system, which has that telephony function. I am not aware of any member of An Garda Síochána who does not have an official mobile telephone supplied to him or her, who does not use their own mobile telephone on a regular and almost daily basis. Because of the nature of policing and because most members are not issued with official mobile telephones, sending someone to a sensitive or confidential call necessitates mobile telephone usage. People back at the stations, especially our members and those at the scene of serious and sensitive incidents, regularly use their mobile telephones privately.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Is there an allowance for that?

Mr. Willie Gleeson:

No, and to be fair to members, they do not claim for it. They may have been told and have been instructed in the past not to use their own telephones and private equipment. However, the job we do necessitates private and confidential telephone conversations. To avoid blocking up the radio system, unfortunately, requires people to use their mobile telephones.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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As I understand it, Mr. Gleeson is saying that if it is done through the Tetra system, a communications unit can be listening, but sometimes an officer might want to talk to another officer on a one-to-one basis, so a mobile telephone will keep him or her out of that loop.

Mr. Willie Gleeson:

No. I apologise to the Deputy as I may not have explained that properly. It is not that other people can listen, but one is then using the radio system. The radio doubles as a walkie-talkie, for want of a better word, and a telephone if needs be. People can be contacted on a private call, but one is using the radio system.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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What is the problem? Why would members not all use the Tetra system if it is provided? I have a feeling that many gardaí use their own telephones.

Mr. Willie Gleeson:

They regularly use their own telephones.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Why?

Mr. Willie Gleeson:

Perhaps it is the culture. They may want to leave their radio free in case someone is calling on the radio for something else because when one is on the telephone, one is not on the radio. One can only use it for one function at a time, but members regularly use their mobile telephones.

As regards private cars, members, especially of inspector rank, use their private cars regularly. We spoke earlier about the locomotion allowance, but members are obliged to supply themselves with a good private car in order that they can attend the scenes of serious incidents.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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We might get some indication of that. There must be some record, for payment purposes if for no other reason, of how many members of the force would have used a private car in the past year. Is it a tiny percentage or is it a lot?

Mr. Martin Callinan:

As I understood the Deputy's question, I thought he was talking about gardaí or maybe sergeants. Clearly, however, it is the position that inspectors and upwards are in receipt of a locomotion allowance and are obliged to have transport.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I am thinking of regular gardaí more so than other ranks.

Mr. Martin Callinan:

That is what I assumed the Deputy was talking about.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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That is extra.

Mr. Martin Callinan:

I fundamentally disagree with my colleague. Quite a considerable number of mobile telephones, at a not inconsiderable cost, are issued to An Garda Síochána members who require them or to people whom management has indicated to us require them. After that, there is a secure Tetra radio system. For many years we have been complaining that we did not have such system, but we now have that. Within that regime there is a back-to-back facility. There are all sorts of ways of one colleague communicating with another without having to worry about whether one is interrupting a minor or major operation. I therefore fundamentally disagree with my colleague on that issue. People may very well be using their own private mobile telephones, but if they are, it is by their own choice. As an organisation, we provide the appropriate equipment to members on the ground to have secure communication with one another. As I have said, we are spending €40 million every year to ensure that type of secure radio is in existence.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Do the mobile telephones that are provided cost a lot? Are they with just one company? I hope the Garda Síochána has a good deal on that. That is all.

Mr. Martin Callinan:

I do not have the figures but we believe that all the people who need them certainly are in receipt of them.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I can see a difference between what happens on the ground and what is official policy. I will leave that to the Garda representatives to talk about separately. The Commissioner can understand that I had the perception that many gardaí use mobile telephones.

4:40 pm

Mr. Martin Callinan:

As Commissioner, I am reporting to the Chairman and this committee that I am satisfied there is sufficient equipment available to my members to communicate effectively with one another on the ground.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Okay, we will move on. I wish to raise a few other issues on some other allowances. First, is No. 22, the court presenter allowance, payable to the inspector who appears in the District Court? Perhaps I missed this. Second, what is the radio allowance of €5,000, which is paid to 69 people? The Commissioner should tell me what they are. Is the court presenter the person who appears in the District Court?

Mr. Martin Callinan:

Yes, exactly.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Do they receive much legal training or is it simply learned on the hoof?

Mr. Martin Callinan:

While there certainly is an element of experiential learning, there also are particular courses on which they are trained up and skilled up.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I suspect this allowance, at €100,000, probably offers the best value for money of any allowance I have encountered anywhere. I refer to a scenario in which solicitors presented the cases in the District Court instead of the inspectors so doing. Were several solicitors lined up all day to do the work on behalf of the Garda, the cost would be phenomenal. Consequently, this allowance is highly cost-effective. The Commissioner should explain what is the radio allowance, which may be connected in some way. I refer to the allowance of €5,000 being received by 69 people.

Mr. Martin Callinan:

These recipients are technicians who service the radio network.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Okay. We will move on, as this is moving into the issue of technology. While I note there are some old-fashioned allowances, such as bicycle allowance, boot allowance and so on, I refer to the level of training. Is there an allowance for training? As many gardaí are not children, they cannot be well up on services such as Facebook and Twitter. What level of training is provided within each division? As everyone is aware, every time an incident takes place nowadays, it appears on Facebook and Twitter. However, because of their age profile - I note they are not teenagers - most gardaí are not fully tuned in and would not have a clue, no more than would many adults. I am conscious of the importance of being forward-looking in this regard and wish to ascertain the level of training. Is there an allowance to train people at divisional level? While I acknowledge that someone, somewhere within the ranks of the Garda must be monitoring Facebook and Twitter, people should be trained in this respect down at divisional level. Facebook and Twitter are as relevant to many people for the purposes of communication as are their mobile telephones. The Commissioner might comment on this point because I believe the vast bulk of Garda members would not be tuned into it. While that probably is a fair comment, I may be wrong and, if so, someone will tell me. However, this is an impression.

Mr. Martin Callinan:

Sure. The first point to make is that with social media and the way they are going, there certainly is a requirement to be skilled up in this area. We have a computer crime investigation unit based in Harcourt Square, which monitors sites, reviews our social media policy and generally provides advice to our members and to communities. We are working very hard with our colleagues in UCD to provide a greater skill-set base and knowledge in and around this entire area. However, it is a vast subject and the idea of training up all the general membership to such a degree that they would be able to interrogate systems-----

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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There could be someone in every unit, such as the sergeant in charge in the station. While I do not suggest it should be each individual member, all I am saying is in each major district, there should be someone who is expert at being on top of it.

Mr. Martin Callinan:

There is the aforementioned facility in Harcourt Square when we come across this type of issue. It is a huge area and is a huge problem for society and not simply an issue for the Garda. While there is the prevention and investigation aspect, there also is the creation of the awareness and the climate. We have seen, unfortunately, in the past week, the results of bullying.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.

Mr. Martin Callinan:

That appears to be something that is increasing. The difficulty, for both law enforcement and the industry, is how to stop it. What sort of sanctions does one impose? What sort of legislation is required? What are the societal obligations on parents, mentors and those who have youngsters in their charge? All these issues enter the dynamic when one discusses people's abuse of social media sites and Facebook.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Okay. My suggestion really was to make use of the social media sites as a source of information for the Garda. People are putting up a phenomenal amount of information on them, which was the reason I suggested this.

Mr. Martin Callinan:

Sure.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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It was as a source of information for the Garda rather than as a service. However, to move on-----

Mr. Martin Callinan:

Before the Deputy leaves the point, I note we have a section that is looking at that area.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Okay. I will move to the subject of juvenile liaison officers, JLOs. I note the Garda has 118 JLOs, who are paid a modest allowance of €30 per week. Given that JLOs probably deal with teenagers up to the age of 18 or whatever, I note that much crime begins at that age, before people move on to their 20s. I presume that more crimes are committed by younger people than by older people. Consequently, as an observation, I would have thought the Garda could do with more JLOs. There are more people in receipt of a Gaeltacht allowance than a JLO allowance and I am sure there are more younger people committing crimes than there are people so doing within the Gaeltacht. Consequently, I believe the numbers in this regard could be stepped up.

I refer to the well-discussed issue of the closure of Garda stations. I represent a rural constituency and am on the front line in respect of this issue. However, I am as much concerned about the reduction in opening hours of Garda stations that heretofore were open on a 24-hour basis. For example, Abbeyleix station was a district headquarters and formerly operated on a 24-hour basis. Were its opening hours reduced to a nine-to-five basis or something similar, that would have a far greater negative impact on a wide area than would cutting further the hours of a station that only was open for a few hours each week. As losing 24-hour cover has a greater impact, does the forthcoming plan envisage that many stations will lose their 24-hour cover? I acknowledge that people break into houses during the day and so on but most crimes about which people are worried, in the sense of security, probably are committed during the evening and the night-time. I consider 24-hour cover in Garda stations potentially to be a major issue.

Mr. Martin Callinan:

This absolutely addresses the nub of the issue we are discussing. This is about 24-seven policing. While Garda stations are important in the entire regime of things, it really is about how we, as policemen and women, react to the service we need to provide. There have been a number of gangland shootings recently and I will be appearing before the Joint Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality in a couple of weeks' time to discuss that subject. However, there have been recent cases in which people were shot at 8 a.m. or 9 a.m. Consequently, it really is about providing a 24-hour service. I am afraid I cannot go into numbers-----

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, I know that.

Mr. Martin Callinan:

-----in respect of what is coming down the track until the Minister gets his report and the Government has an opportunity-----

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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That is fine. I simply make the point this constitutes a significant loss to the community.

Mr. Martin Callinan:

Absolutely.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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It is not simply a matter of going from a few hours to no hours. Going from 24 hours to far fewer hours also is as great a loss.

Mr. Martin Callinan:

The Deputy's point is well made and understood.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Finally, in what is a serious discussion on allowances, I often conclude with a lighter point. No. 13, which is the plain-clothes allowance for the poor Garda sergeant is €11.60 per week, which amounts to €603 per year. However, in the case of No. 45, the plain-clothes allowance for the inspector, he or she gets €13.22 per week, which is €687 per year. Inspectors get an additional €80 and therefore must be expected to dress better when in plain clothes.

Mr. P. J. Stone:

Well spotted.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Moreover, No. 56, which is the plain-clothes allowance for superintendents and chief superintendents, is €14.68 per week or €763 per annum. In other words, they get €160 more per year than does the poor lad who is out chasing the lads at all hours of the night. Why do the higher-ups get paid better money for better clothes when they are wearing plain clothes?

Mr. Martin Callinan:

Different pay scales. However, I certainly hope the lads who are higher up the chain actually are directing the lads as to where to go when they are out chasing those people.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Yes. I simply am making the observation. This issue also arose in yesterday's meeting in respect of local authorities, whereby different mileage rates applied depending on one's grade in the local authority, even though one still was driving the same car at the same cost.

If a member is paid an allowance for wearing plain clothes, it is small money, but perhaps there should be a similar allowance for all members. It should not be based on salary. I do not know, but perhaps they have to wear better suits on official occasions.

4:50 pm

Mr. Martin Callinan:

I hope the Deputy will excuse the pun, but he has just refuelled my colleagues in the forceful arguments they will make in the coming weeks.

Mr. P. J. Stone:

I assure the Deputy we have made that comment before.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I did not know that.

Photo of John McGuinnessJohn McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Commissioner and his colleagues, Mr. Stone and his colleagues, as well as Mr. Redmond for attending. What they have had to say has been informative and helpful to the process in providing a greater understanding of the allowances applied. This will feed in hugely to our report and recommendations.

The witnesses withdrew.