Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees

Wednesday, 31 October 2012

Public Accounts Committee

2011 Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 25: Environment, Community and Local Government - Review of Allowances

Ms Geraldine Tallon (Secretary General, Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government)called and examined.

4:00 pm

Photo of John McGuinnessJohn McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I again remind members, witnesses and those in the visitors gallery to turn off their mobile phones as they interfere with the proper transmission of the proceedings.

I advise witnesses that they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they are to give to the committee. If they are directed by it to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against a Member of either House, a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I remind members of the provision within Standing Order 158 that the committee shall refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government or a Minister of the Government or the merits or objectives of such policy or policies.

I welcome Ms Geraldine Tallon, Secretary General of the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government, and invite her to introduce her officials and make her opening statement.

Ms Geraldine Tallon:

I am accompanied by Mr. Maurice Coughlan, principal officer; Mr. Barry Quinlan, principal officer; and Mr. Laurence Kelly, principal officer. I am also accompanied from the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform by Ms Oonagh Buckley, principal officer.

I thank the Chairman and members for giving me the opportunity to address the committee. I provided in advance on 12 October information for the committee on allowances in respect of which business cases had been made to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. In the intervening period further business cases which have relevance to the local government sector have been submitted to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, a list of which was provided for the committee secretariat yesterday. Altogether, the information provided covers common Civil Service allowances which apply in my Department, allowances specific to the Department which apply in Met Éireann, allowances which apply across all local authorities and allowances particular to one or more, rather than to all, local authorities. Total expenditure from the Department's Vote in 2011 was nearly €1.6 billion, of which departmental pay amounted to some €51 million. The allowances common to Departments generally and those applying in Met Éireann totalled €2.5 million in 2011, of which €351,000 related to common Civil Service allowances, while Met Éireann accounted for €2.15 million in the main in shift and public holiday allowances.

Of the 18 general Civil Service allowances paid in the Department in 2011, ten were paid to service officers. These allowances totalled some €64,000 in 2011. There were 28 service officers in the Department in 2011 based at five locations. The allowances were introduced to cover a range of specific additional tasks and, in the main, are legacy type payments to officers in the Department with the lowest basic pay. The committee has been advised by the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform that the service officer grade is common to all Departments and that it is intended to review pay and conditions centrally.

The remaining allowances are paid to a limited number of officers and reflect a range of legacy issues. We have reduced the incidence of the payment of some allowances such as in the case of office accommodation and are in discussions with staff representatives regarding some others. We will continue to focus on this issue as the overall review continues.

In regard to Met Éireann, the National Meteorological Service is a division of the Department. Its core task is to monitor Irish weather conditions and prepare and issue weather forecasts and warnings to help protect life and property. This requires the making of observations and forecasting operations on a 24-7 basis, 365 days a year. As is the norm in organisations with round-the-clock operations, staff receive shift and public holiday allowances to compensate for the arduous nature of the unsocial working patterns required to deliver Met Éireann services. Shift and public holiday allowances in Met Éireann have been in place for decades, with the current arrangements having been initiated in the 1970s. Shift allowance payments amounted to €1.8 million in 2011, while public holiday payments totalled some €300,000.

As regards local authorities, provisional unaudited figures for 2011 indicate that total expenditure was in the region of €7 billion, of which current expenditure represented €4.7 billion. The local government fund provided for a figure of €790 million or 17% of current expenditure of local authorities in the form of general purpose grants in 2011. Payroll costs were €1.4 billion in 2011, a reduction from the figure of €1.7 billion in 2008. Of the figure of €1.4 billion, €61 million or 4% was spent on allowances. Local authorities traditionally incur costs on overtime payments and allowances necessitated by the need to fulfil statutory obligations as service providers in areas such as roads, water, fire and emergency services and to ensure compliance with health and safety legislation.

Work is often done outside normal working hours and conditions. The sector has been active in assessing and reducing costs since 2008, having reduced staff numbers by almost 25% or 8,600 whole-time equivalents. There have been overall savings of €830 million. In the specific area of allowances costs have been reduced by 30%, from €85 million in 2008 to €61 million in 2011. The €61 million spent on allowances in 2011 was made up of a range of allowances related to the provision of critical services often carried out outside core hours and duties.

As is the case in other sectors, the term "allowances" covers a variety of payment types in the sector. They vary depending on the work, duration, grade and time involved. Some are intended to reimburse expenses incurred, while others are linked directly with pay. In most cases the allowance payable was considered to be the least expensive option to deliver a particular service, with the alternative being curtailing or eliminating the service, paying overtime, hiring additional personnel or increasing basic remuneration.

The majority of allowances are paid to outdoor workers at the lower end of the remuneration spectrum in respect of work carried which in most cases must be done out of hours at short notice, at night or at weekends. The employees concerned do not receive overtime payments when performing these duties.

Allowances in local authorities fall into two categories. Those agreed at national level apply across all 34 authorities. Examples include on-call, ice cast, acting up, unsocial hours and winter maintenance allowance. Those agreed locally, in most cases to cater for a particular need, apply in more than one local authority where employees work late or come in early to do a particular job, for example, outdoor staff who work in the sewer system in Dublin city. The majority of the allowances in the sector were introduced following lengthy negotiations between staff and management representatives and many have been the subject of Labour Court decisions. The flexibility local authorities receive in return for what is often a relatively small outlay is considerable. Another example is a cleaning allowance where branch librarians, in addition to their core duty, clean libraries out of hours, thus avoiding the hire of specialist cleaners.

In reviewing allowances in the local authority sector my Department considered 217 separate business cases. They comprised 14 national and 203 local allowances. Of these, 56 business cases in respect of 14 national and 42 local allowances have been submitted to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform on the basis that the allowance should be payable to new beneficiaries. The committee has been provided with information on all 56 allowances. For the balance where there is no approved business case, my Department did not consider that a business case should be submitted to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, but local authorities have been asked to begin the process of engagement with staff representatives with a view to the elimination of such allowances to existing beneficiaries also.

Overall, as I have indicated, the local authority sector has been to the fore since 2008 in reducing expenditure and staff numbers in response to the financial crisis. The sector is now embarking on an ambitious structural and organisational reform programme aimed at delivering services more effectively to citizens locally.

4:10 pm

Photo of John McGuinnessJohn McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Thank you, Ms Tallon. May we publish your statement?

Ms Geraldine Tallon:

Yes.

Photo of Paul ConnaughtonPaul Connaughton (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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I welcome Ms Tallon and thank her for her opening statement. How many people work in Met Éireann?

Ms Geraldine Tallon:

The figure is just over 150.

Photo of Paul ConnaughtonPaul Connaughton (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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Is that an increase or a reduction on the figure five years ago?

Ms Geraldine Tallon:

It has been reduced. In 2008 the number of staff was more than 190 and in 2009 it was 173.

Photo of Paul ConnaughtonPaul Connaughton (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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Shift allowance payments were €1.8 million last year. What was the figure at its height when there were more than 190 staff?

Ms Geraldine Tallon:

I cannot tell the Deputy what the shift allowances were in 2008. Overall, I have indicated the total payment for the allowances generally in the Department which has reduced considerably in the period 2008 to 2012. In 2011 shift allowances were €1.8 million.

Photo of Paul ConnaughtonPaul Connaughton (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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The Secretary General states the Department has returned to the local authorities on the business cases made for certain allowances. As what point is that process now?

Ms Geraldine Tallon:

This is happening in real time. It is active. We went to the local authorities in the past week when we knew the outcome of the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform's review of the first batch of allowances. As I stated, we recently referred 52 local allowances. We wrote to the local authorities last week indicating that for the balance which we were not forwarding, negotiations or discussions should begin with staff representatives with a view to determining what approach should now be taken. We have given the local authorities until 9 November for local authority management to open discussions with staff representatives on the approach to be taken.

Photo of Paul ConnaughtonPaul Connaughton (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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I will refer to some specific allowances that apply to staff in local authorities. I know that prior to this meeting, the eating-on-site allowance has been discussed. I understand the reason the allowance is paid is that workers are away from their base at lunchtime. Is this not more of a reflection on the local authorities that they could not provide the necessary services in the areas in question?

Ms Geraldine Tallon:

I do not think so. A significant number of local authority general operatives work outdoors in crews here, there and anywhere. If they are involved in road maintenance works or in other services, they can be taking place in areas remote from canteen facilities. It is a reflection on the nature of outdoor work in local government that staff may be working on-site for a very large proportion of the time. It is a cost effective way of maintaining productivity. If one gives a small allowance and staff eat their lunch relatively quickly, they are back on the job relatively quickly also. All in all, it is viewed as a cost-effective measure by the local authorities. For that reason, we were prepared to say it should go before the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform.

There are two general operative staff in Met Éireann who are based in the Valencia observatory to whom the eating on-site allowance is payable. The figure came to a total of €988 in 2011. We would regard this as reasonable in the case of the two staff in the Valencia observatory.

Photo of Paul ConnaughtonPaul Connaughton (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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I do not have an issue with the allowance per se, but concerns have been expressed about some of the on-site services workers would want to have available but which would not be up to the standard required by them. I wonder if the focus is on doing something about this because this would get over the problem.

Ms Geraldine Tallon:

I do not think so. County Galway has a large rural area and people will be dispersed. In the past couple of years local authorities have been looking at the organisation of staff.

It is one of the issues of concern when we are engaged in workforce planning. Traditionally local authorities have tended to be organised in three, four or five areas and staff have worked within these areas. We are now looking at the collapse of the area based organisation, with staff potentially working a greater distance from base. That is an argument for the continuation of the eating on-site allowance because staff may be more remote from their base. It promotes productivity and an effective use of the working day.

4:20 pm

Photo of Paul ConnaughtonPaul Connaughton (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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I imagine the ice cast allowance is paid to one or two engineers in each council area who carry out the role during certain months. Is the rate the same across all local authorities? How many avail of the allowance?

Ms Geraldine Tallon:

The ice cast allowance is paid to one person in each local authority. There are 34 local authorities. The rate of allowance, €9,961 per engineer per year, is set by the National Roads Authority. It is a payment based on the engineers involved being on call at any stage.

Photo of Paul ConnaughtonPaul Connaughton (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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My understanding is that they give the job to the persons who will grit the roads. They monitor the temperature of roads which is extremely important. The winter maintenance gritting, on-call and unsocial hours allowances cover the same sorts of jobs. Is a person called out to grit roads in the middle of the night paid two or three allowances or just one?

Ms Geraldine Tallon:

I do not think staff are getting double allowances, but different members of the crew may be getting different allowances. There are particular pieces of equipment and machinery used in road repairs for which specific allowances are paid, but the allowance is individual to particular members of the crew, including the driver, the engineer in control and the operator of the gritting machine.

Photo of Paul ConnaughtonPaul Connaughton (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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The point I am trying to make is that there are a great many allowances. Is it possible to consolidate them to make the process less complex and easier to understand? My question is whether a person who grits roads gets two or three allowance and whether it would be better to consolidate the allowances.

Ms Geraldine Tallon:

I do not think somebody can get two or three allowance for doing the one job, but they might get different allowances for doing different jobs in succession. Does the Deputy know what I mean? I have been surprised to learn that there are so many local allowances in the local government sector. This is the first time an overall assessment and review of allowances has been carried out. I would not necessarily have been aware of the hundreds of allowances in different local authorities or the diversity and variety of allowances paid. It is fair to say there should be an exercise, which is part of the reason we have written to the local authorities to open discussions on allowances. The time is ripe for this to happen and the crisis is such that this is an exercise in which we need to engage to try to rationalise the system.

Photo of Paul ConnaughtonPaul Connaughton (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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The staff concerned may have to work unsocial hours and may be called out to do a job in a short timeframe. If they cannot complete the job, roads may freeze.

Ms Geraldine Tallon:

By definition, allowances tend to be paid for jobs done at unsocial hours in difficult circumstances.

Photo of Paul ConnaughtonPaul Connaughton (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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It would be no harm if the allowances could be consolidated for those carrying out the work. This would make the system easier to understand and take the complexity out of it. Do local authorities have autonomy? Does the money come from the Department or the local authority budget?

Ms Geraldine Tallon:

By and large, it comes from the local authority budget. As I explained in my opening statement, the local authority payroll is €1.4 billion, or approximately 17%, out of current expenditure of more than €4 billion. The contribution made centrally to local authority current expenditure is by way of general purpose grants from the local government fund, which was €790 million in 2011. Pay costs at local level are met from the local authority's own resources generated through commercial rates, charges for services and so on.

Photo of Paul ConnaughtonPaul Connaughton (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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Who pays the ice cast allowance?

Ms Geraldine Tallon:

It is refunded by the National Roads Authority.

Photo of Paul ConnaughtonPaul Connaughton (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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The NRA sets the rate.

Ms Geraldine Tallon:

Yes.

Photo of Paul ConnaughtonPaul Connaughton (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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I have no further questions. Thank you, Ms Tallon.

Photo of Michael McCarthyMichael McCarthy (Cork South West, Labour)
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I welcome the delegation. The overall pay bill is approximately €1.4 billion, of which €61 million is the cost of local authority allowances. In the overall scheme of things, local authorities do not account for the lion's share. A review of allowances has been under way since October 2011, which has led to the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government making business cases to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. The Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government has reviewed 217 separate business cases. Who prepared the business cases on the 14 national allowances?

Ms Geraldine Tallon:

That work would have been done by the local government management agency which is representative of all local authorities. The business cases were developed and reviewed and sent from the local government management agency on behalf of the local government system.

Photo of Michael McCarthyMichael McCarthy (Cork South West, Labour)
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On the 14 national allowances, would I be correct in saying the Secretary General found all 14 to be still relevant and recommended their continuation for new entrants?

Ms Geraldine Tallon:

Yes.

Photo of Michael McCarthyMichael McCarthy (Cork South West, Labour)
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In relation to the next instalment of this process, the business case has been forwarded to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. We have had an exchange with the Irish Congress of Trade Unions. What is the next stage of the process?

Ms Geraldine Tallon:

Of the 14 business cases submitted to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, it has responded to us on 12. We submitted two more recently. We decided in the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government that because we were becoming aware of the great many allowances applied in the local government sector we would review allowances that applied locally in one or more local authorities. We decided to ask each local authority to send us a full list of the allowances applied and that we would carry out a review rather than referring all of the business cases directly to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. This seemed to be sensible and practical from our point of view to try to isolate the allowances applied nationally across the local government system and we identified 14. As I said, there were more than 200 allowances that applied in one or more local authorities and we have been looking at all of these cases. I would not say absolutely that we have bottomed out every last detail of every allowance because this has been a tight job in a relatively short period as the information has come in. We have sent the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform a further 42 business cases where we consider there is a good business rationale for the allowances and additionality such as the undertaking of arduous work and working unsocial hours.

As things stand, they are with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform for consideration. We provided the committee with the list yesterday. I suspect the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform has been so busy on the allowance issue generally that we have not heard anything. We await developments in this regard.

4:30 pm

Photo of Michael McCarthyMichael McCarthy (Cork South West, Labour)
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With regard to the consistency element, with 34 local authorities there is bound to be an absence of universal application of some of the allowances at least. There will also be inconsistencies in how various allowances are dealt with by local authorities. Is there a common pay scale across the 34 local authorities? With regard to how allowances are applied, if a union negotiates an allowance for outdoor staff in Donegal County Council, is this used as a precedent to make a case for the same allowance to be paid in Cork, Kilkenny or Tipperary, or would it be a stand-alone allowance and unique to Donegal? Does the Department ultimately sanction the pay, terms and conditions for local authority staff? This has to do with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform's definition of "civil servant" and the use of this model.

Ms Geraldine Tallon:

Local authorities do have common pay scales. For ease of reference for local authorities, a circular dating from 2009 includes all of the pay scales from senior executive officer, just below the director of service level at grade 8, to specialist professionals, library staff, technicians, craft workers, general operatives and water caretakers. There are standard scales for all of these pay grades in the local government system.

Of the allowances agreed locally, we have not sent approximately 161. However, we have sent 42 to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. They tend to be agreed locally and can apply in more than one local authority. If one examines them, one will see more than one local authority pays branch librarians to clean after hours, but the rates vary slightly in each local authority because they are agreed locally. It is not necessarily the case that branch librarians throughout the country have stated a desire to receive this allowance and not all local authorities have decided it is the direction in which they want to move. While certain allowances are picked up or agreed locally in one or more local authority, there has not been a drift, whereby this becomes the norm throughout all local authorities. In a number of cases the pattern of allowances has tended to evolve from particular local circumstances. To take a completely different example, if a problem arises with stray dogs in areas far from a dog pound, a number of local authorities will pay a small allowance to a caretaker or general operative to kennel the dogs overnight rather than having to travel a long distance.

Photo of Michael McCarthyMichael McCarthy (Cork South West, Labour)
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That would be cost-effective. Such a local arrangement would be far more effective economically.

Ms Geraldine Tallon:

It is a cost-effective way of dealing with a particular issue in a local area. A large local authority such as Dublin City Council would face completely different circumstances. In my opening statement I mentioned the question of working in the Dublin sewer system. A number of allowances apply to persons working in that system, for example, where one works at a depth below 10 feet or for brickwork repair. It is dangerous and difficult work and a problematic area in which to work. It is a small allowance which would not have relevance in other areas.

The pattern of allowances in local government is varied. In many cases, particularly in those in which we stated we would forward a business case, one can see they are paid for difficult jobs involving unsocial hours and arduous work and they are deserved. It is also cost-effective in getting particular work done.

Photo of Michael McCarthyMichael McCarthy (Cork South West, Labour)
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Does Ms Tallon have information which indicates which allowances are pensionable?

Ms Geraldine Tallon:

In the table we sent to the committee we listed the allowances which were pensionable. Pensionable allowances tend to be more in the nature of pay, while others are more in the nature of expenses looking at the broad spectrum of what is paid in the local government system.

Photo of Michael McCarthyMichael McCarthy (Cork South West, Labour)
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Did the process of submitting the business plans to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform involve anybody else? Were trade unions or workers' representative associations or organisations consulted?

Ms Geraldine Tallon:

No, they have not been consulted. It has been a management exercise.

Photo of Michael McCarthyMichael McCarthy (Cork South West, Labour)
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It has been management led.

Ms Geraldine Tallon:

Thus far it has been management led, but we have now written to local authority management and asked for discussions to be opened with staff representatives.

Photo of Michael McCarthyMichael McCarthy (Cork South West, Labour)
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How many trade unions represent workers in local authorities? How many trade unions in total will the Department have to deal with?

Ms Geraldine Tallon:

There are craft unions, as well as IMPACT and SIPTU which are the main unions.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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When I consider local authorities, the issue of travel comes to mind. Many local authority staff members must use their own cars, for which they probably receive a quarterly allowance. I am sure that when they started the job, they measured how far they travelled in a three or six month period. I ask Ms Tallon to explain this arrangement. People have complained to me that in local authorities senior staff are on a higher rate for travel than ordinary staff. Could this be correct? I have often heard a complaint that someone such as an area engineer is paid so much per mile, while others working under a person at that grade receive a different rate. It does not seem to be based only on the distanced travelled or engine size of the car, but a higher rate is made available for more senior staff. I ask Ms Tallon to check this out for me.

Ms Geraldine Tallon:

I will certainly check it out. I am not aware of it.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I would like to think I am wrong, but I have heard complaints. It seems unfair that this would be the case, but I am assured that it does happen.

Ms Geraldine Tallon:

We will certainly check it out and provide a response for the committee.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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People use their own cars. I do not believe an area engineer who hops into his or her car 20 times a day can record all of the journeys made; therefore, there must be some allowance for travel payable to various grades in various counties. I ask Ms Tallon to discuss this matter or provide us with a note on it. I am not saying there is anything wrong with it; an area engineer must have a car and it is better than a local authority having to provide a little truck. I have no argument on that point. I just want to get a feel for the allowance in question.

4:40 pm

Ms Geraldine Tallon:

There may be local arrangements.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Would that not be standard in every local authority?

Ms Geraldine Tallon:

The standard items in local authorities are the standard travel and subsistence rates that apply across the board.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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How does a person claim-----

Ms Geraldine Tallon:

If a person is using his or her car a great deal and there is an arrangement under which he or she receives a quarterly allowance instead of claiming under the standard travel and expenses arrangements, that system may operate on a quarterly basis because it is more cost-effective than the pay-per-journey system.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I understand and we are agreed on that point. I have no problem with the allowance, but I am seeking a note on how the system operates. Would a city or county manager have the information? The Department does not need to survey every local authority. An area engineer or road supervisor with a couple of depots in his or her area would hop in a car, travel ten miles today and 48 tomorrow. It would be a waste of everyone's time if that person had to clock each journey. A system must be in place. I have no argument with the one in question, as it is probably pragmatic and cost-effective. Will Ms Tallon forward the committee a note on the issue? The information must be available.

Ms Geraldine Tallon:

We are conscious that the system is in place and that we have some information available. I would not claim to have complete information, but we have some from local authorities on fixed travel allowances as part of their allowance systems.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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That is probably it.

Ms Geraldine Tallon:

We have not sent that information to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform because we cannot vouch for the allowances, as matters stand. We will do more digging and provide an information note.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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It goes without saying that, to make sure everything is right, there are procedures to obtain Revenue's approval for these allowances.

Ms Geraldine Tallon:

Yes.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Otherwise there would be tax implications. Did I hear Ms Tallon correctly, that information on 160 allowances was not sent to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform?

Ms Geraldine Tallon:

Yes.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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How much do these allowances cost? We will not waste our time on the small ones, but what about the large allowances payable?

Ms Geraldine Tallon:

Most are small allowances.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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What was the cut-off point? How did the Department decide what information to send? Did it send good information over which it could stand and hang onto that it could not stand over? Perhaps the Department only sent information on the small allowances, but information on the large allowances was not readily available.

Ms Geraldine Tallon:

As far as-----

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Is there a list of the 160 allowances applied?

Ms Geraldine Tallon:

There is a list of all of the allowances in question.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Have we been given the list?

Ms Geraldine Tallon:

No. The committee's list is the one we sent to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Will the witnesses circulate the list?

Ms Geraldine Tallon:

We can provide a copy of the list of allowances.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Does the Department have the list of the 160 allowances that was not forwarded?

Ms Geraldine Tallon:

Yes, we have it.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Has the Department forwarded the list?

Photo of Simon HarrisSimon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy means the other Department.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The Department of Public Expenditure and Reform.

Ms Geraldine Tallon:

No. The Department of Public Expenditure and Reform does not have that list.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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That means its work is incomplete.

Ms Geraldine Tallon:

We believed the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform had enough to do and that we should try to run a slide rule over local government.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The number of allowances might be large or small. We have heard about 1,100 allowances, but that figure is now 1,260 and we do not have information on 160 of them. We are trying to get a complete picture. I am not suggesting anything untoward has been done. How did the Department distinguish between what it was and was not going to forward?

Ms Geraldine Tallon:

Maintaining the status quo for existing staff, we considered what allowances should apply to new beneficiaries and whether there was genuine additionality involving the undertaking of arduous work and unsocial hours, namely, the criteria applied by the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform in its allowance review. We applied the criteria to the local government sector in a way we did not expect the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform to do in respect of our sector. If we believed some allowances were outdated and should die out with existing beneficiaries, we were not going to claim that they should be applied to new entrants. That was our starting point.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Surely the view should have been taken that any such allowance should have been killed off sooner rather than in 40 years time.

Ms Geraldine Tallon:

The Deputy asked me about our starting point. That was our starting point. Last week we wrote to all managers and told them that they should begin the process of engaging with staff representatives on allowances for which business cases had not been approved or forwarded. Our objective is to determine to what extent these allowances can be phased out for existing beneficiaries also.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Does Ms Tallon have any idea of how much money is involved?

Ms Geraldine Tallon:

The overall figure is €61 million, some 4% of the local government payroll. It is a small percentage.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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What was the cost of the allowances forwarded to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform?

Ms Geraldine Tallon:

The 14 allowances cost approximately €17 million or €18 million, which is an estimate. We have continued to work on submissions from individual local authorities. We have provided the committee with a table containing the estimated figures for the 14 national allowances.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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It sounds as if the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform asked the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government for the details of the allowances and that the latter only sent details on €17 million out of the total of €61 million. It has held back three quarters of the information, but perhaps I am wrong.

Ms Oonagh Buckley:

The point is that the review of allowances is still in progress. As the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government was asked to do, it has gone through the business cases sent to it by every local authority, apparently thoroughly. It has done exactly what we asked it to do and evaluated the allowances relative to the criteria to be used in the review. It has forwarded a further group of business cases. The Secretary General has kindly and correctly stated we have not had the opportunity since these business cases were submitted to take the case conference approach that we have adopted in respect of all allowances. We intend to begin to go through them, possibly as soon as by the end of this week. At that point, we will reach our own conclusions, revert to the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government and do as we have done previously, that is, publish the business cases, numbers and so forth. We will update our figures. The committee is holding its hearings while the process is-----

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Ongoing.

Ms Oonagh Buckley:

-----still under way. There is no fault in what has been done. We have always referred to the approximately 1,100 allowances as the ones that were notified to us. There may be others, but we have not been told about them.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Perhaps I did not spot that subtle point. We know that at least 160 local authority allowances at a cost of €44 million are not on the list of 1,100 allowances. The business cases are part of an ongoing process, but I believed the figure of 1,100 was the total. More allowances might still come through from other Departments. Is the group of 160 allowances the largest across all Departments that have yet to be sent to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform?

Is that the largest group of allowances of which Ms Tallon is aware across all Departments? Are there other Departments? Some €44 million of allowances, covering 160 categories, have not yet appeared on our radar. Is that the largest group?

4:50 pm

Ms Oonagh Buckley:

I doubt very much any major sector will produce another couple of hundred allowances. The process undertaken by the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government is exactly the process we wanted Departments to do, which is to be thorough about the business cases presented to us. The process required detailed work. There may well be legacy allowances in other sectors that were never payable to new beneficiaries. They never came to be examined under the allowances review because they would never be payable. We have been careful in stating that we were notified of 1,100 allowances and we have been sent more than 800 business cases. We always stated that there may be allowances where, for whatever reason, a Department becomes aware of the payments but has not submitted a business case. It may believe a business case is viable and it can continue to submit business cases. That has been always part of the process.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Is there information we have yet to receive?

Ms Oonagh Buckley:

It is possible.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Is this the largest single group? What about the HSE, which is an obvious group?

Ms Oonagh Buckley:

I doubt it. The way in which pay has been set, with local arrangements in local authorities, is relatively unusual in public service pay. It is likely that this arises most in the local government sector. I cannot say for sure.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The HSE has grown from the health boards, which grew out of county committees on health. They all have their roots at county level. It goes back a few years. The committee must be conscious of this point.

Ms Geraldine Tallon:

As my colleague said, it is still a work in process. It may be that the estimated figures for national allowances are underestimated. Many of the local allowances, of which we sent on 42, are small. I refer to the library branch cleaner allowance, which amounts to €13 a week, and the allowance for kennelling a dog, at €7.50 per dog per day. These are small in the overall scheme of things.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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That is exactly my point. The Department has notified us of allowances that amount to a few euro a day. My opening remark was about travel allowances paid by the month or the quarter to, I suspect, every area engineer and road supervisor in the country. They are entitled to them and the allowance probably represents good value. It must amount to a large sum of money. The Department has given information about kennel allowances but no information about fixed travel allowances for area engineers. There must be more than 100 area engineers in Ireland and I am sure they receive a few thousand euro a year. The area engineer who is not travelling is not much of an area engineer. More substantial sums of money are paid through the allowances about which we have not heard, relative to the sums of money about which we have heard.

I referred to a point that haunted the HSE and this committee a number of years ago. In the health services, the HSE had a computerised payroll system called PPARS. A fortune was spent on it and it was rolled out through a number of regions. What bedevilled the system was that some 2,800 payment methods were used in the health services. Rather than rationalise them, the HSE attempted to computerise the payment methods and it was a mess. The HSE started with a mess, computerised the mess and ended with a computerised mess. It should have tried to rationalise and streamline the payments and then computerise a simple system. As part of shared services of public service reform, we are in the process of organisations bidding, through various local authorities, on a number of contracts such as waste management licences, the collection of fees, human resources, procurement and purchases. I am worried about where this will end up. The unfortunate successful local authority, which must centralise payroll for all local authorities, may get a shock upon seeing hundreds of different items that are under the radar that have not come to the committee's attention and have not come to light. It might end up being a much larger problem. This is similar to other areas in which we have tried to centralise systems, such as student grants and medical cards. I am afraid we are heading down the same road when we do not have an exact fix on the matter. Every allowance sent to the Department will end up on someone's payslip at the end of the fortnight and we must be exact on these types of arrangements. The committee does not yet have a handle on the matter, with 160 allowances outstanding. I have seen other Departments centralising matters and problems emerge. The problem could arise if people do not know about the 160 allowances as it is not contained in the brief they see at the beginning. I sound a note of caution. I wish the Department success in its projects but some may be more complicated. I look forward to receiving information on some of those allowances to which we referred in the list of 160 allowances.

Photo of John McGuinnessJohn McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Arising from the comments of Deputy Sean Fleming, the departmental officials and congress, I was taken by the fact that Mr. Cody and other representatives told us there was no consultation with unions and that the implementation body did not consult unions in local government and across the sector. We seem to be heading down a road where management is examining the allowances and has received what it terms business cases, although I would not describe them as business cases. I said to congress earlier that I was shocked it was not consulted in the provision of information for the business cases. Congress might have had concerns about the payment of the allowance, the type of the allowance and how it was viewed in terms of core pay. Congress might have had concerns about how the allowance was described. Some of the allowances are very poorly described. There was no consultation with unions. The plan seems to be extended day-to-day. There is no central plan and the Department seems to be working on it as it goes along. We were told there were 1,100 allowances and now further allowances have emerged in the local government sector, which we did not consider. The unions have still not been asked about this. Ms King was quite clear that the issue of the allowances would be fought tooth and nail, with a view to keeping the allowances because they form part of core pay. If the Department was setting out on the correct path, it should have established this in the first place so that we do not have a hearing of the Committee of Public Accounts, followed by engagement with unions that is now taking place, and all of it amounting to nothing. The Department identified some allowances that had been agreed, tested in the Labour Court and acknowledged as part of core pay. Nevertheless, some of these allowances are listed in the review. Today, Ms Tallon tells us that in the case of 14 of the allowances, business cases were made to the Department and the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform has instructed local government bodies to pay them.

Is the plan to review these allowances not completely flawed on the side of the Department, because the other main player, the unions, was never consulted? From the hearings we have been engaged in, we find the allowances are all paid to the low-paid workers. Parallel to this process, approval has been given for 12. How many other approvals have been issued? Without waiting for the full examination of the allowances and the determination of this committee, for example, or the Department's process, decisions are being made. How are the unions taking that decision?

5:00 pm

Ms Oonagh Buckley:

If the Chairman will forgive me, I am surprised he is surprised that public service management in this case decided to look at a part of the public service pay bill. It was actually a budgetary announcement made by the Minister that this examination would take place. We did not consult the unions in advance of management taking the decision to look at part of the payroll because that is not the way we carry out our business. In the same way, when we decided to look at the way we pay sick leave, we did not consult staff representatives in advance as to the appropriateness of doing so. Instead, we said we would conduct our review and when the outcome of that review was complete, we would talk to them and discuss what it meant in terms of the people they represent. In effect, the allowances review, at the instruction of the Minister, was conducted in the same way. Public service management is making decisions about the way it would like to try to save money from the public service payroll. It is advancing that process and at the appropriate time, it will talk to the staff side about the implications of the decisions taken in that regard. I was a bit surprised that the Chairman expressed surprise about that. We are doing our job in terms of taking proper management decisions about the sorts of things we are doing. We are now entering into the industrial relations process, as we have discussed, which will allow for those decisions to be discussed in the proper forum. That is what we propose to do.

Photo of John McGuinnessJohn McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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That is not from where my surprise comes. My surprise comes from how it is being approached, although I should not be surprised. I was surprised that the witnesses from the ICTU told us today that it knew nothing about this. Ms King, in particular, said that this was done by diktat and that, basically, it would have none of it. I have to ask that question. I know what the Minister is doing but surely, in terms of all of these allowances, there should have been some discussion to flag this for the unions concerned, saying this is how we are going to go about it and what these business cases are all about. They were not business cases. I would have thought that out of that earlier engagement with the unions, Ms Buckley would have got a much more rounded view of what these allowances were, where they were and what they meant to the workers. For example, a lot of the information given to date has come as a surprise to members in terms of who these allowances are paid to and so on. They have expressed the view that many of the allowances are actually core pay, and the unions themselves said they are core pay. I would have thought that would be an interesting point to include in a business plan to management. Ms Buckley might just say where the approval is for the 12 allowances. What does that mean? Is the Department issuing approvals as it goes along?

Ms Oonagh Buckley:

As was stated - I believe the committee was briefed by the Secretary General of the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform - the allowances were defined in four different ways, but primarily three. There were allowances for which, on review of the business case, the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform considered that there was an adequate business case for their continued payment to new beneficiaries. Of the 14 national allowances indicated by local government, a number of those have been approved for payment to new beneficiaries. In other words, the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, having reviewed the business case made by the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government, considers there is an adequate business case for their continued payment to new beneficiaries. There are two other groups of allowances - those we considered did not have a business case for payment to new beneficiaries, and those we considered should be reviewed in their terms of payment to both serving and new beneficiaries. Those are the communications that have come out of the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform to all sectors. There is a much smaller group of allowances on which we have suspended a decision or need more information. There are only a small number of allowances in that field.

All I can say is that we have taken an approach here which is that management has to take decisions around what it will do and then, and only then, engage with staff representatives. We have consistently said that engagement will take place. We communicated formally with the public service committee of ICTU in December when we commenced the allowances review. We communicated formally with it on the outcome of the review. Our intention is that there be local engagement through the proper industrial relations forum, as is appropriate in this sort of scenario. This is what any employer does. He or she looks at the cost base and then decides whether there is a need to approach union representatives or staff on what he or she is going to do. That is the approach that is being adopted in this case. It is pretty standard and is exactly as we have done in a number of other areas in which we decided to examine and change the terms and conditions of employment of public servants. I already cited paid sick leave as one of those areas.

Photo of John McGuinnessJohn McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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It may come as no surprise to Ms Buckley that ICTU has a different view.

Ms Oonagh Buckley:

It does not surprise me that ICTU is already making the claim that some allowances are core pay. I have no doubt at all that it has said that to the members of this committee, but that is a matter that must go for discussion in the appropriate forum.

Ms Geraldine Tallon:

Of the decisions made, not all of the allowances have been approved. I said that of the 14 national cases, we have had decisions from the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform on 12 of them. Six of them have been approved for new beneficiaries. A number of others have been approved subject to modification or review to be carried out between now and next February, and a number have not been approved. We have decisions but not necessarily approvals.

Photo of Simon HarrisSimon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I thank Ms Tallon and Ms Buckley and their officials for being here today. I wish to add my comments to the point the Chairman made. I commend the approach being taken by the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, with one caveat, which I will get to in a moment. Nobody has a veto over the process. What public sector managers are doing and are being instructed to do is actually managing. There is a mechanism in place for adjudications and rulings to be made on decisions by managers after negotiations have taken place. I actually welcome the fact that the paralysis that has dominated the public sector and stood in the way of public sector reform in the past few years is being broken.

Having said that, from our engagement with the unions, which the Chairman touched on, the criticism I have of the process is that the Labour Court has made a determination on some of these allowances. I hope we are not going down the route of putting forward potential savings that we will not be able to achieve. I do not know if Ms Buckley is in a position to comment on that - I know she probably does not want to comment on specific allowances.

While I welcome the process, I do not think any employer, and certainly no private sector employer, would wait for an employee to want to see a change to his or her pay structure. That is not how the world works. As was made clear to us today by the unions, I am concerned that the Labour Court has already made a determination on some allowances that the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform has identified for removal as quickly as possible. If Ms Buckley could add any clarity to that, it would be helpful.

Ms Oonagh Buckley:

If we were to be bound by rulings, determinations, pay awards made by bodies and so forth, none of the allowances would have been the subject of any form of further decision. With regard to whether there were Labour Court rulings from ten years ago or whenever - there are particular concerns about a Labour Court ruling from 2005, although that might be relatively recent - the question we posed was whether the particular allowance was still fit for purpose, in modern terminology.

When we come to the discussion on these allowances, we might find that it is. We have no doubt that in a number of cases, the staff side will prevail by winning its argument in front of a third party. We do not win every argument. That is the reason the system is in place. We certainly did not predetermine the outcome of our decision on foot of the review of allowances on the basis that, for example, there was an agreed report under a general council conciliation or arbitration scheme or a Labour Court determination. In the case of the Garda Síochána or the Defence Forces, it would have been a regulation underpinning the allowance, as is the case in many instances. If we had done so, we would have predetermined every outcome. That was not what we wanted to do.

5:10 pm

Photo of Simon HarrisSimon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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That is a helpful clarification. I share the concern that has been expressed by my colleague, Deputy Seán Fleming, about the significant number of potential allowances that continue to apply. I understand it is a question of timing and that there is work to be done. Is there a definitive timeline for when the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform will have the final number of allowances and all the business cases?

Ms Oonagh Buckley:

As the members of the committee are discovering, public service pay is an issue of infinite complexity. I would never say never on these matters. I assure the committee that I would like this long process to be over as soon as possible because I have had enough of it. I do not expect that many more allowances will come forward. The major sectors have been extremely thorough. That has been the case also in the local government sector. Most allowances are now out there. Some legacy allowances, or allowances from the past, are still in payment for various reasons. I expect the number of cases which have yet to come forward is not very large.

Photo of Simon HarrisSimon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I thank Ms Buckley. I would like to raise a couple of issues with Ms Tallon. If we are looking for a model of something clear that can be picked up and understood by taxpayers, I suggest the table that summarises the individual local authority business cases is it. We need to give credit where credit is due. Over the course of these hearings, this is the first time I have picked up a document from any Department or agency and been able to quickly identify the business case and where is the value for money. I do not want to return to the kennelling allowance other than to say it is clear from the document that we should pay it. Given that we will have to rent a kennel space if we do not, we should save taxpayers' money by paying the allowance. I congratulate the person who put together the document. The committee is trying to ensure that information of this quality is always presented to us. I would like to mention another aspect of this matter about which I could be totally confused. I am somewhat boggled after discussing allowances for the last few days. Fifteen county councils are listed on the summary table. Am I to believe these arrangements apply in just 15 county council areas, or are the rest to follow? Is that from where the rest will come? Perhaps Ms Tallon will clarify that for me.

Ms Geraldine Tallon:

The practice has varied across local authorities. Some local authorities pay very few allowances beyond the nationally applicable allowances that are mentioned on the other list we provided to the committee. Some local authorities bought out allowances in large measure. I have seen a table that indicates the percentage of payroll that is represented by allowances in each local authority area. The figure is as low as 1.5% in Westmeath but as high as 4.8% in Wexford. The numbers of local allowances that are still in existence vary from council to council. In some cases, they have been largely bought out or eliminated over the years.

Photo of Simon HarrisSimon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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Ms Tallon and I are familiar with Wicklow, which is not on the list. Am I to presume that no individual local authority allowance is in place in Wicklow? Is it simply a question of no business case having been submitted in respect of the allowances there?

Ms Geraldine Tallon:

It is one that we have submitted-----

Photo of Simon HarrisSimon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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The Department has received-----

Ms Geraldine Tallon:

It did not-----

Photo of Simon HarrisSimon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I am not being parochial. I am just using Wicklow as an example. The same thing applies to the other counties that are missing from the list. Is it the case that there are local allowances in place, but the Department has found there is no point in submitting business cases for them-----

Ms Geraldine Tallon:

Yes.

Photo of Simon HarrisSimon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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-----and chosen not to do so?

Ms Geraldine Tallon:

In some cases, we have chosen not to submit a business case. Various cases were sent to our Department but we said "this is where the buck stops" and decided not to send them on to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform.

Photo of Simon HarrisSimon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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Does that account for the list of 160?

Ms Geraldine Tallon:

That is the 160 we have.

Photo of Simon HarrisSimon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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That is very helpful. I have noted some local variations in the document. We have discussed this with every Secretary General. I refer to the kind of variance at local level. For example, it seems there are many keyholders in Laois. It seems peculiar to me and to most people. There must be many keyholders in Wicklow. Even after all these discussions, I am still confused about these matters. Is it simply the case that local arrangements have developed? Perhaps unions in County Laois, for example, have been more vociferous and more effective at putting in place local allowances. Is it the case that the situations of keyholders in other counties is different in some way? I hope I am right in referring to Laois.

Ms Geraldine Tallon:

My understanding is that the keyholder allowances are primarily to be found in Limerick.

Photo of Simon HarrisSimon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I apologise to the people of Laois. The details were hidden under a staple in my copy of the document.

Ms Geraldine Tallon:

The authorities there have identified specific civic buildings, such as public libraries, in those cases.

Photo of Simon HarrisSimon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I take that point. I am making a broader point. How come we have keyholder allowances in one area but not in another? I want to get to the bottom of the matter. Is it basically a case of local unions negotiating successfully with county management over the years to get additional allowances? Have unions in some geographical areas been more successful than others? I cannot believe there are significantly fewer libraries in Wicklow than in Limerick. However, there are keyholder allowances in Limerick but not in Wicklow.

Ms Geraldine Tallon:

We are not yet at the end of this process. The Department of Public Expenditure and Reform has made it clear that this continues to be a work in progress. Some 5.86% of the payroll in Wicklow is allowance-based. Wicklow has not sent us any information on allowances. Its case is not closed at the moment. Perhaps it has been decided at local level in Wicklow not to make any business cases.

Photo of Simon HarrisSimon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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When will we get a definitive decision from the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government on Wicklow and all the other missing county councils?

Ms Geraldine Tallon:

We have not taken to the highways and byways. We have not said to Wicklow that it must submit its list of allowances. If it chooses not to submit a business case to us, we will take it that-----

Photo of John McGuinnessJohn McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Has consideration been given to a "respond early" allowance in Wicklow?

Ms Geraldine Tallon:

Other than their participation in the nationally applicable allowances-----

Photo of John McGuinnessJohn McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Maybe it should be a "respond any time soon" allowance.

Photo of Simon HarrisSimon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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We are very effective in most areas in Wicklow.

Ms Geraldine Tallon:

If a business case is not submitted to us, we do not have an opportunity to say whether we stand over the allowance and send a message to that effect to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, which is responsible for the overview in those instances. We have written to all managers to instruct them to open discussions with staff representatives with a view to the phasing out of allowances for existing beneficiaries. There could be fireworks in Wicklow.

Photo of Simon HarrisSimon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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There often is, as Ms Tallon is aware. As I do not want to be parochial, I will mention that Tipperary is not on the list. Should an employee of one of the two county councils in Tipperary - they will be merged soon - whose county manager has not sent a business case to the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government, which therefore could not send it on to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, presume his or her allowance is ceasing?

Ms Geraldine Tallon:

Not necessarily. As we have been doing this on a forward-looking basis, it relates to new beneficiaries.

Photo of Simon HarrisSimon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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Okay. Therefore, it is ceasing for new beneficiaries only.

Ms Geraldine Tallon:

A new beneficiary will not get the allowance, in effect. We have started to talk to staff representatives about the future of these allowances for existing people. They are not ruled out, as things stand. If one is employed in Tipperary, one might well get an allowance for eating on-site. One might get dirty money or one of the other approved allowances that apply across all local authorities.

Photo of Simon HarrisSimon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I am delighted Ms Tallon referred to dirty money because of all the allowances, dirty money is the one that most seems like an anti-capitalist term. It is a bizarre name for an allowance.

I do not know whether this allowance is the same as the dirty money allowance applied in the university sector, but I presume it is the money maintenance staff get for what I colloquially call "muck on your boots".

5:20 pm

Ms Geraldine Tallon:

It is literally for doing dirty jobs.

Photo of Simon HarrisSimon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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Its status is listed on this sheet, Circular EL 02/2012, on the reduction in overtime payments and cost of allowances. Will Ms Tallon explain what is happening with the 14 allowances listed on the sheet?

Ms Geraldine Tallon:

These are 14 allowances that apply right across the local government system. They are not allowances applicable in one local authority or a group of local authorities. Every local authority pays a certain number of craft workers, general operatives and wastewater staff dirty money. Every local authority pays an eating on-site allowance to general operatives and craft workers. Every local authority pays a certain amount in unsocial hours allowances to library and other staff who work atypical working hours.

Photo of Simon HarrisSimon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I am not begrudging the craft worker, the wastewater worker or whoever receives the dirty money allowance; rather, I am arguing the fact that he or she needed an allowance for the job he or she was doing and that it was not made part of his or her core pay, but that is a broader point. What is the current status of the 14 allowances?

Ms Geraldine Tallon:

Those are the 14 allowances and decisions have been made on 12, six of which remain to new beneficiaries, with the balance either being phased out for new beneficiaries or to continue with modifications. The dirty money, eating on-site, unsocial hours, water and sewerage caretaker weekend allowance, water safety and winter maintenance allowances have been approved for new beneficiaries.

Photo of Simon HarrisSimon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I thank Ms Tallon for helping me to navigate the list.

I have two final questions, the first of which I have asked of every Secretary General I have had the opportunity to question. It relates to the potential scope for consolidation and is an ongoing issue. In some sectors it has been very apparent, for example, in the teaching profession. When we had a discussion with Ms Tallon's counterpart in the Department of Education and Skills, it was apparent that a number of allowances were effectively seen as part of core pay, particularly when one looks at the likes of a principal being given an allowance rather than it being part of his or her salary. Will Ms Tallon comment on where her Department stands on the scope for consolidation?

Ms Geraldine Tallon:

It is something at which we will look. A lot of the allowances identified on the list are very small in the overall scheme of things. The eating on-site allowance is €1.90 a day; the dirty money allowance is 65 cent to €1.52 a day-----

Photo of Simon HarrisSimon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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Okay, that is fine.

Ms Geraldine Tallon:

They are of a very different order to the allowances applied in the teaching profession, as I understand it.

Photo of Simon HarrisSimon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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That makes sense.

My final question is on the role of county managers which was discussed with the unions earlier. Their title has also come up in this discussion. As part of the reform agenda, they are due to be replaced or renamed. Do county managers get allowances? What is the status of their pay? I make this point because there are a number of staff working in local authorities, in my county and others, who are concerned about their own allowances, be it the dirty money allowance or otherwise, which, as Ms Tallon stated, involve small sums of money for low-paid staff, yet in some instances county managers are paid more than European Prime Ministers. Will Ms Tallon provide for clarity on the pay structure of county managers and indicate whether they receive allowances?

Ms Geraldine Tallon:

The county manager does not receive allowances. There are five grades of county manager. At level one is the Dublin city manager. It is, I suppose, the premier position within the local government management structure. The majority of managers are levels four and five. Some 25 or 26 of the 34 managers are at those levels. The manager pay scale runs from roughly €130,000 at level five to €185,000 or thereabouts at level one.

Photo of Simon HarrisSimon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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In addition to their salary, do county managers receive additional payments or are these arrangements made at a local level?

Ms Geraldine Tallon:

A small number of county managers receive a relatively small allowance for their participation in regional authorities. I am told the figure is €4,000 to €5,000 a year. By and large, managers are not in receipt of allowances. They are in receipt of normal travel and subsistence payments.

Photo of Simon HarrisSimon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I thank Ms Tallon.

Photo of John McGuinnessJohn McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Ms Tallon might let us have a breakdown of the figures for the management pay structure.

Ms Geraldine Tallon:

The management pay scale, yes.

Photo of John McGuinnessJohn McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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That brings us to the end of questions. I thank the officials for coming and Ms Tallon for her contribution.

The witnesses withdrew.

Photo of John McGuinnessJohn McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Simon Harris has an issue to raise.

Photo of Simon HarrisSimon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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Tomorrow is fine.

Photo of John McGuinnessJohn McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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We will discuss it at tomorrow's meeting.

Photo of Simon HarrisSimon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I will raise the issue of Irish Aid and overseas development aid tomorrow.

Photo of John McGuinnessJohn McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Okay.

The committee adjourned at 5.35 p.m. until 2 p.m. on Thursday, 1 November 2012.