Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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I invite the Minister to begin her briefing on the social protection aspects of the Council's agenda.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I wish the Chairman well in chairing this committee. This is our first opportunity to meet formally.

The upcoming meeting of the Employment, Social Policy, Health and Consumer Affairs Council, EPSCO, will be in Luxembourg on 4 October. I wish to brief the committee on my priorities during the forthcoming EU Presidency. As the members are probably aware, the EPSCO Council covers a wide range of issues, spanning the responsibilities of a number of Ministries, including those responsible for social protection; jobs enterprise and innovation; justice, equality and defence; health; and, more recently, children and youth affairs.

I will concentrate on the issues in respect of which my Department will have lead responsibility. Some of the matters are technical and I will present them in the order of the agenda. No. 4 concerns association agreements. As the first social protection item, it is a relatively technical one. No. 4 is an agreement on the Council position to be adopted in regard to the social security aspects of association agreements the European Union has with Albania, Montenegro, San Marino and Turkey. These agreements cover a wide range of matters dealing with the relationship between the countries in question and the European Union. Generally, they include a clause on social security co-ordination. The purpose of these Council decisions is to set out the manner in which the European Union sees the social security clauses being implemented and they are subject to agreement with the individual countries. Ireland has no issue with these decisions as they mainly involve equality for nationals of the countries involved in their dealings with social welfare and the export of contributory pensions. These requirements are already covered under our domestic legislation.

However, an issue arises with the Turkey agreement in respect of the legal base for the decision. The base being used is Article 48 of the treaty, which deals with free movement and which Ireland and the United Kingdom contend relates to EU citizens. As this agreement relates to a third country, the base should be Article 79, which deals with rights of third country nationals. The effect of using Article 48 is that it deprives us and the United Kingdom of the right to opt in or out of the decision under Protocol 21 of the treaty on the functioning of the European Union.

A similar issue has arisen in regard to agreements with Switzerland and the EEA countries, and the United Kingdom has already taken cases to the European Court of Justice to have the matter clarified in regard to the agreements. Ireland is, on the advice of the Attorney General, supporting the United Kingdom's submissions. The concern is that the use of Article 15 may set a precedent that would have implications for our national interest in areas other than social securities. In these circumstances, Ireland will record its disagreement with the decision on Turkey by way of the joint minute statement with the United Kingdom. It is understood that this decision may not be accepted pending the outcome of the Swiss and EEA cases.

Agenda item No. 6, Europe 2020 and the New EU Governance, concerns the evaluation of the second European semester and thematic surveillance in employment and social policies, and endorsement of the contributions of the social protection committee. This item relates to an opinion of the social protection committee on the European semester process. It is one of a number of committees that has produced an opinion on the process. The social protection committee offers opinions and produces reports for the Council in the areas of social protection, health care and pensions and is competent to do so under the treaty.

The key political message in the opinion is that social policy issues are increasingly relevant in the semester and that EPSCO has a key role in ensuring that the positive contribution of social protection to inclusive growth is properly reflected in all relevant Council recommendations. This reflects the view that the ECOFIN and banking issues have tended, for understandable reasons, to dominate the agenda. The opinion was agreed by all member states and the Commission at a meeting of the social protection committee on 20 September 2012 and should be endorsed by the Council without difficulty.

Paragraph (c), on the social protection performance monitor, refers to the endorsement of the SPC's introductory report. Under this item, the Council has been asked to endorse a report submitted thereto on the social protection performance monitor. The monitor is currently being developed by the social protection committee and the Commission services. It is in response to the European Council conclusions of December last year which called for complementing reinforced economic governance with improved monitoring of employment and social policies. The output of the monitor will form part of future social protection committee annual reports on the social dimension of Europe 2020 for the Council. EPSCO has already endorsed the employment performance monitor through which it follows the employment policies. The social protection performance monitor will enhance the Council's ability to gain a deeper understanding of developments occurring regarding social policies across the Union, to monitor them closely and regularly and to identify social trends common to a number of EU states. The new tool covers the three strands of the social open method of co-ordination, social protection, pensions and health, as reconfirmed by the Council in June 2011.

No. 7, Towards a Job-Rich Recovery and Giving a Better Chance to Europe's Youth, is important. One of the challenges faced by the European Union and Ireland is tackling unemployment, with particular emphasis placed on the experience of young people, whose rate of unemployment across the Union is twice the average. There has been much activity at both national and EU levels in attempting to face this challenge. The Commission's employment package and the Council's Compact for Growth and Jobs, published earlier this year, request member states to engage in economic and social policies to boost employment rates, particularly for the long-term unemployed and young people. The Youth on the Move flagship initiative is currently under way. It focuses on supporting young people in the transition from education to work. The Council's conclusions will be adopted on 4 October. They are a response to the employment package and are a further development on work done thus far, including strengthening employment policy measures at both national and EU levels.

The conclusions call on the member states and Commission to take action on a number of fronts designed to step up job creation and labour demand. These conclusions will be followed up later in the year with a youth transitions package. I will be prioritising work on this during our Presidency. I will return to this later.

Child poverty has been a concern at EU level for at least a decade. In 2012, the social protection committee presented an advisory report to the European Commission on preventing and tackling child poverty and social exclusion and promoting children's well-being. Drawing on the social protection committee's advisory report and main messages, draft Council conclusions have been prepared under the Cypriot Presidency. The conclusions recognise that income-support measures will not, on their own, address child poverty, and that without broader consideration of children's well-being, child poverty can and will have some effect on all children's outcomes. It is for this reason that access to services and children's participation are important.

These conclusions invite the member states, European Commission and social protection committee, taking account of the specific circumstances in each member state, to take action along specified lines.

They are to aim to ensure adequate and sustainable investment in child and family supports, mitigating negative impacts on the most vulnerable while maintaining an adequate balance between universal and targeted policies, to incorporate child poverty and social exclusion, as well as child well-being, as key issues in the European Union 2020 strategy and the integrated social open method of co-ordination and to make full use of existing tools to improve the monitoring of and reporting on child poverty, social exclusion and child well-being, as well as the evaluation of policies. Member states are asked to consider, when designing and implementing policies, that investing in children is a long-term investment, that they make full use of financial opportunities provided through the EU including Structural Funds and that they promote the engagement of all key actors, including local authorities and NGOs. I strongly endorse the holistic approach envisaged in the conclusions. It is my view that, working closely with the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, these Council conclusions, together with the new child poverty subtarget under the national social target - as the revised national poverty target is now known - provide a unique opportunity to tackle child poverty and in so doing to promote child well-being within the Europe 2020 strategy to the betterment of all children. I understand these conclusions will be followed up by a European Union recommendation on child poverty, which will be included in an overall social package that will be published by the European Commission in March. At this stage, it is not clear what will be contained in that package but if time allows after publication, it will be my intention, in consultation with the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, to ascertain what progress can be made in this area during the Irish Presidency.

As for the priorities for the Presidency, although my role here primarily is to brief members on the Council, as Ireland’s Presidency of the EU rapidly approaches, I will take this opportunity to apprise members of my key priorities for social affairs for the Presidency. As I already stated, the EU agenda in the social protection area covers a wide range of issues, including activation and employment, pensions, social security and social inclusion. Tackling unemployment and addressing the social consequences of the crisis effectively, pursuing reforms to improve employment levels, in particular of young people, as well as developing, implementing and mainstreaming effective policies to combat poverty and support vulnerable groups all are areas in which the EU is highly active in developing policy and actions. Accordingly, it is appropriate that priorities for the Irish Presidency should reflect the emphasis the EU places on these important issues. One of the highlights of the Presidency will be to bring Ministers of employment and social affairs to Dublin in February 2013 for an informal ministerial meeting. The general theme for the meeting will be “Supporting People into Employment”, with a particular emphasis on youth unemployment.

The youth unemployment element will be particularly timely. In December 2012, the European Commission will publish a youth transitions package, the main element of which will be a proposal for a so-called youth guarantee aiming to ensure targeted young people are either working or in appropriate training or work experience within a specified time after becoming unemployed. The objective of the proposal is to intensify actions at EU and member state level aimed at addressing the high level of youth unemployment across Europe. The European Commission is anxious to see significant progress in this area during the Irish Presidency and hopes that Council recommendations can be adopted. The informal meeting will seek to advance the issues raised in the Commission proposal with a view to adopting Council conclusions on the Commission package at a formal Employment, Social Policy, Health and Consumer Affairs, EPSCO, Council during our Presidency. The informal meeting will also include meetings with the social partners and with the social platform at a European level. This informal meeting will be jointly run by my Department and the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, with input from the Department of Education and Skills. An interdepartmental group of officials is currently working to put together a comprehensive set of policy papers to address the wide range of issues that come under the theme of getting people back to work.

As for other social protection measures during the Irish Presidency in addition to the youth guarantee, it is my intention to make progress on two key legislative measures, namely, the pensions portability directive and a regulation to amend the social security co-ordination regulations. The portability directive proposes minimum requirements for enhancing worker mobility by improving the acquisition and preservation of supplementary pension rights. It is important in the context of increasing worker mobility and in particular, mobility within self-employment. At present, there is no common framework in the EU regulating the acquisition and preservation of supplementary pension rights. The fact that pension rights may not be preserved in a supplementary pension when a person leaves employment is considered to be a serious obstacle to the free movement of workers within the EU. Accordingly, it is acknowledged there is a need for Union action to improve and support the mobility of workers across the European Union. It is expected that the Commission will introduce the proposal late in the Cypriot Presidency. Co-ordination of social security systems is perceived by the EU as an important element in the measures that are in place to encourage and facilitate the free movement of workers and EU citizens in general. Accordingly, it is important to ensure the regulations are updated on a regular basis. These regulations require amendment to take account of changes to the social security systems of the individual member states and judgments of the European Court of Justice, as well as to deal with issues identified in the operation of the regulations. Changes are made on an annual basis and it is expected that the Commission will publish the proposal for the latest round of amendments in December 2012. There are a number of small amendments and technical changes which are unlikely to be opposed by any of the member states and, in the circumstances, I expect it will be possible to reach an agreed approach at Council and possibly a first reading agreement with the European Parliament. I am looking forward to a successful EU Presidency, which I hope will make a significant contribution to advancing the EU agenda on a range of issues and in particular, as I stated, in addressing on an European Union-wide basis the issue of unemployment with particular emphasis on the problems experienced by young people.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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I thank the Minister and will open the floor to members. I first will call on Deputy Ó Snodaigh, the Sinn Féin spokesperson.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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I have a number of questions.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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I believe the Fianna Fáil spokesperson should be called on first.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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Yes, I apologise.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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I will defer to Deputy Ó Snodaigh, who should go ahead.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Deputy. I have a number of questions and thank the Minister for the briefing, which was useful even though the European Union does not have a huge amount of competence in respect of social policy. In particular, I wish to concentrate on one point the Minister already has highlighted and which was reported in the media yesterday, namely, the proposed European Union youth guarantee. While it sounds good, the detail is not available on what precisely it means or what sort of money will be spent. The European Commission examined this proposal and indicated it would allocate a budget of €4 million to it. Given the huge number of unemployed young people across Europe - I believe the figure is a colossal 7.5 million and rising at present - that would be 50 cent per person. Unless money is to come from somewhere else, this scheme will go nowhere. The International Labour Organization suggested that for Ireland alone, such a scheme, which entailed a commitment to young people that they would be offered a job, training or educational opportunity within three months of being made redundant or failing to get a job, basically being unemployed, would cost Ireland approximately €300 million or €400 million to operate and to have the proper effect. From where will this money come?

Will it be in place next year during Ireland's EU Presidency term so that young people can look forward to some form of labour market activation? In Ireland there are 80,000 young people unemployed, a figure that increases at the end of each school term.

One EU programme is called Youth on the Move. Figures from the latest Quarterly National Household Surveydemonstrate that 96,000 young people between the ages of 20 and 34 have literally disappeared from the workforce. They have not shown up as unemployed or returned to study. That suggests they are certainly on the move, getting out of here. This fact highlights the urgency of a need for a commitment to proper funding to ensure jobs are created and proper training and educational opportunities are given so young people can access jobs. Where will the moneys come from for these programmes? Has the Minister had discussions with the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation? Has there been any discussion with the troika to allow the funding suggested by the International Labour Organisation to be spent on this programme until the unemployment level is properly addressed?

Willie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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Anything to do with the EU seems to be attended with an unusual amount of jargon. I listened carefully to the Minister's presentation but I do not know how much wiser I am except that I now know the EU social protection Ministers will be visiting Ireland in February. Regarding the pension portability issue, the Minister will be aware that there is no common framework to make pensions portable in the EU. Herculean efforts have been made to put a directive together, so far without success. The last directive up for negotiation would have given a fair amount of flexibility to individual member states which seems a bit of a contradiction. The Minister stated she is hoping to make progress on this during Ireland's EU Presidency. How realistic is that? I do not believe there is a hope in hell that we will have this directive anytime soon, let alone during Ireland's Presidency.

Last Monday I read about the European youth guarantee in The Irish Times so I did not have to come here today to hear about it. Officially, 30% of the population under the age of 25 cannot get a job. That grossly understates the case. A parliamentary question I put down to the Taoiseach yesterday revealed that in the past 12 months alone, 76,000 people have left this country. That is over 200 a day, of whom I suspect most are young. The Minister claims any of these young people who cannot get a job will be guaranteed an education or a training place. What percentage will be accommodated by the training and education schemes available? What extra numbers will be involved? I suspect it will be quite substantial. How much is this going to cost? Has provision been made for it? I read a suggestion in Monday's Irish Times, which surprised me, that we expect the EU will pay for these programmes. Judging by the sort of figures floating around, that is most unlikely. According to the brief from the Department of Social Protection, over €500 million must be made in savings in the social welfare budget this year. How realistic is this proposal? How much is it going to cost and who will pay for it? How many people will benefit from it?

The Minister stated similar schemes have worked well in Austria and Germany where youth unemployment is low. I would respectfully suggest that youth unemployment is much lower in these countries for reasons other than the offer of a guarantee scheme like this. I recall a similar scheme in operation in the United Kingdom which has not been particularly successful. If this scheme becomes a reality here, how will it coincide with the Pathways to Work scheme? The pathways scheme involves the referral of jobseeker's allowance recipients to a case officer to incentivise them for getting back into the workplace. Will there be a separate stream for recipients under 25 who will fall under the guarantee programme?

I want more clarity on this as last Monday's announcement has created a good deal of hope and expectation, particularly among young people who are growing increasingly desperate. I want to ensure on their behalf that there is some substance to this guarantee.

Joan Collins (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Does the Minister envisage that the package proposed by the Employment, Social Policy, Health and Consumer Affairs Council, EPSCO, will include budget checks for child poverty? While there has been much talk about child poverty, unless vulnerable children are protected against budget cuts, it is meaningless.

All the points have been made about the number of young people unemployed and long-term unemployment. The long-term unemployment rate is increasing to a dangerously high level. These proposed initiatives will not deal with the issue at all. There needs to be significant investment in job creation across Europe, particularly in Ireland. Private investment is on strike, as the Minister knows, even though the money is there. The Government is not able to or willing to put in the real investment needed for creating jobs. How much money from Europe does the Minister envisage will be needed to implement these proposed initiatives?

There is also a concern about the types of jobs that will be created by these schemes. Only several weeks ago, the M. J. Gleeson Group in Cherry Orchard, under the auspices of redundancy, let 12 permanent workers go. They had all just joined a trade union and were replaced very quickly with agency workers. We have to ensure these schemes go along with the protection of trade union rights, the right to join a union and the right not to be made redundant for doing so. Are we moving towards more agency work rather than permanent work under these schemes? There are other areas that have to be looked at. What are the Minister's ideas on the amount of money needed to get people off the dole?

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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My question is related to the same matter rather than the Minister having to go back to it again.

I welcome in principle the concept of the youth guarantee scheme. For a long time, we have been talking about youth unemployment and we have not heard of anything to target it. We are at least starting to talk and think about it. Obviously, the important detail must be worked out.

I have a number of questions on this for the Minister. Does she know how many of those under 25 are unemployed graduates, in other words, with a higher education degree? Those with higher education degrees need not be turned around and put back into education because they might be only coming out of it, aged 23. They would need job specific training or internships. I propose that the Minister extend this scheme to those between the ages of 25 and 30. I realise that would add further to the budgetary issues about which Deputy Ó Snodaigh spoke, but we now know there is a future in digital technology. An EU Commissioner has stated that by 2015 there will be 700,000 IT engineers lacking across the EU. We need to examine the skills set of graduates up to the age of 30 and ask what type of training and conversions the Department could offer to give them the correct skills set to match the genuine needs. We are kidding ourselves if we say governments can create jobs. Governments do not create jobs. Governments create schemes or training programmes that will equip young people for the jobs being created by industry or by business. I look forward to hearing the Minister's answer to my question about the graduates, the needs, and whether she would be looking at those between the ages of 25 and 30. Will I come back on the other questions later?

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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Yes. I call Senator Moloney, only on this point.

Marie Moloney (Labour)
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I will keep to the same subject. It saves the Minister repeating herself when we come in again.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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Fair enough, but there was an order agreed by the committee at the beginning of today's business.

Marie Moloney (Labour)
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What if we stick to the same subject?

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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We cannot. We adopted an order. I will allow Senator Moloney on this matter. Other than that, we will stick to the rules we agreed.

Marie Moloney (Labour)
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I will be brief because many of my questions were asked earlier. Perhaps the Minister could give us feedback on the success of JobBridge and the internships and whether employers are keeping on the youth who take up JobBridge and internships.

A golden opportunity was lost at the time of the census that it did not contain a question on whether a member of the family emigrated. It would have given us a fair idea of the trend of emigration and the age group of those involved. In future, the census form should be used to collate such data.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I will start with Deputy Ó Snodaigh's questions. The youth guarantee has been under discussion for a number of years at EU level. The important political aspect of this is that the European Union, for understandable reasons, has been focused on the banking crisis and the economic crisis, but, as the committee will be aware, there is an enormous human dimension to that crisis, particularly in the context of those who are without work, those who have lost their businesses and young people who, as has been referred to by a number of committee members, cannot get on the ladder of work having been trained and educated. If we get the youth guarantee, it will provide a framework for having pathways for young people which will avoid as far as possible a young person going onto the live register when he or she completes education or training. We should be able to provide them with work opportunities. At present, getting a job is difficult. If one cannot get a job, training, education and work experience such as internships are critical to not letting somebody go onto the live register where six months becomes a year or two. As members will be aware, one can go to estates where the numbers of workers - fathers, sons, daughters and grandparents - is much lower than it might be on another estate in another part of the same city. This is our crisis. It is a crisis for the individual and for the community, particularly in areas that are badly affected. If we get the agreement of the Commission at the end of the Cypriot Presidency in December, we will have an opportunity to bring that Commission paper to the informal meeting in Dublin and then to EPSCO. At that point, it would become a question of resources as the EU reviews its budget, which it is in the process of doing, ensuring that funds such as the European Social Fund are utilised in this specific area and that the European Union uses parts of its budget to stimulate employment, which, in turn, will help economic recovery in the different countries. In a way, in the 1970s and 1980s, as older people will recall, that was the widespread experience right around Ireland of how the European Union operated in terms of supporting nationwide initiatives, particularly for those being educated, for instance, in the institutes of technology, and in deprived areas.

On Youth on the Move, EURES acts to assist the mobility of workers. Since I have been Minister, I have attended approximately four job fairs held in different parts of Ireland to encourage mobility. It is a question that is frequently asked, for instance, by German and Luxembourg Ministers, in whose countries there is a shortage of young people and who are quite interested, for example, in Irish apprentices going to work in Germany. It is meant to facilitate that.

On the discussion with other Ministers, since I have become Minister for Social Protection, I have gone to a number of European meetings and have made it my job, on every occasion that I have been there and at every opportunity, to inform people about the level of unemployment in Ireland and of my view that the unemployment issues in Europe are a key priority for EPSCO to address.

I was asked for the figures on young people. According to the recent census, the number of young adults in the population has fallen by approximately 100,000 in the past three years, as Deputy Ó Snodaigh stated. That has been largely due to what statisticians call cohort effects, that is, that there were a smaller number of births in the 1990s. It also reflects migration flows. Some of these are our young people leaving to go abroad, as we all are familiar with. In other cases, young people from different countries who came here to work have returned to their own countries. There is a significant worrying number of our young people leaving to go abroad. I went abroad to work when I was younger. Provided one has an opportunity to come back, working abroad can be a valuable experience. I hope it is in the context, to return to the earlier point, of work to get experience and that the person has a choice and an opportunity to come back to his or her own country.

The big strength of Ireland is that we have a large number of young people. We have been sending small pilot schemes, for instance, of apprentices to finish or enhance their training, to German cities and with particular German firms, and that has gone quite well.

Senators Healy Eames and Moloney raised related issues pertaining to JobBridge, internships and training. Deputy O'Dea also asked how we can identify younger people in the Pathways to Work process. The core of the Pathways to Work process, which we are rolling out in a number of offices and will implement throughout the country later this year, is that when someone applies for a payment or benefit, he or she supplies data that will now be used to profile his or her record of employment, education and skill levels and previous earning capacity. The Department has worked with the ESRI to develop a prediction of exit from the live register tool based on these data. In many cases, highly educated graduates will spend only a short period on the register because they may simply need to look for another job. Every year, more than 140,000 people leave the live register to take up employment because there is a large turnover of people on the register.

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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Are precise data available on how long graduates stay on the live register?

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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We are just starting on the Pathways to Work process and, as Deputy O'Dea noted, it is a question of identifying these people and their skills levels. These data were not gathered in the past but they form part of the new Pathways to Work profiling project. It will take a number of years to build up the profile as new people come into the system.

In regard to Senator Moloney's related question, just under 5,000 people are on JobBridge placements currently, and more than 4,000 have completed placements. Indecon is conducting a review of JobBridge. When the initiative was first introduced, I gave a commitment to this committee and the Dáil that we would seek to put in place online monitoring in order that we could learn as we go. We began the examination of JobBridge earlier in the summer and I expect the report on that will be with me. At present, we can identify the areas in which participants in JobBridge are working. Approximately 25% of those who go on placements are graduates. These are highly skilled people, some with postgraduate or even doctoral degrees, who cannot find jobs because they do not have experience and cannot get experience without finding employment. They are in a catch-22 and the purpose of JobBridge, with a six or nine month timeline, is to give them that experience and opportunity.

In terms of what people are doing, I can only give members a flavour of our initial data. I will revert to the committee when we have the detailed data. A fair number of people on JobBridge are going to small and medium-sized employers and in many cases they are finding further employment either directly through that employer or by building up a network. A number of people are also going into public bodies and community and voluntary organisations. Clearly the capacity of those organisations to offer jobs subsequent to placements is more limited. For example, more than 80 people are working on games development with the GAA. We have done considerable work with the GAA on establishing a sports development programme. People can develop contacts and networks by working with clubs.

In respect of the questions raised by Deputy Ó Snodaigh and Senator Healy Eames, I am interested in developing a profile of traineeships over a longer period. Ironically, there is great demand in the IT sector in this country at the highest level but that demand is repeated throughout Europe. I am pleased to say the Government is investing heavily in programmes like Springboard and Skillnets and on conversion courses for professionals such as construction engineers, architects and CAD designers who found themselves without work as a result of the collapse of the construction industry. My Department is spending just under €1 billion on job related supports in addition to the other social welfare payments we make. Other jobseekers have left school early or at leaving certificate level and need traineeships which provide training and work experience that assist them in finding employment. Deputy O'Dea referred to Germany and Austria. In both these countries education and on-the-job training are interrelated. This is a very successful feature of the German system and could be investigated profitably by this country. The Minister for Education and Skills is dealing with a Bill on education and training and reform of the VEC structure. My Department sits on the board of the group which is progressing that development. It is important from a social welfare point of view that unemployed people have relevant opportunities and, in particular, relevant apprenticeships and traineeships. We all know that with the collapse in construction, apprenticeships have suffered a severe reduction in terms of numbers, and we need to look to the future.

In regard to pension portability, I will bear in mind what Deputy O'Dea said. The advice from the European Commission is that a number of countries are ready to move on this issue but, as he will know from his long experience as a Minister in the previous Government, the agreement of member states is needed on proposals from the Commission. The Commission is optimistic that progress can be made but the Deputy will understand how these matters work.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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We said we would move on to the pre-budget discussion at 11 a.m.

Marie Moloney (Labour)
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I have further questions.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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We are straying into areas that are outside the remit of this committee.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I wish to make one point in response to Deputy Joan Collins. Child poverty and social policy issues are obligations and competencies of member states. The European Union provides oversight and comparison of policies in the different member states. It tends not to act directly because that is the prerogative of national states and governments. In dealing with social exclusion and the well-being of children, it is as important to concentrate on the quality of services in education and health as it is on income. The strongest predictor of child poverty is to live in a jobless household.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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I will allow supplementary questions but I remind members that we agreed at the outset that we would move to discussing the budget at 11 a.m. The pre-budget discussion is important, clearly, and I ask that the three members who indicated a desire to ask questions be brief.

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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One of my questions relates to the Minister's recommendation on child poverty, child well-being and the production of a social package. Is there a proposal to tie welfare into vaccinations, for example? The overwhelming evidence is that vaccinations protect children and that is a service. We know that a small group of people disagree with vaccinations. Also on the issue of child well-being, we know the stress on a family unit is significant. What is the status of the proposal to have the name of the father on the birth certificate?

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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Those matters are not related to agenda.

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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They are because they are related to child poverty.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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No, they are not. This item on the agenda relates to the EU meeting the Minister is about to attend. We will then discuss the budget at which point the Senator can raise broader issues.

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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My final point relates to the pensions issue. Last week officials from the Department of Social Protection outlined to the committee that the social insurance fund is down by €1.5 billion, which relates to increasing pension payments.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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That is a budget issue.

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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My questions are as follows. What is the view of the European Commission on this? Could this mean that people who have been contributing will not have pensions in the future?

Marie Moloney (Labour)
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Last week when we met departmental officials to discuss PRSI policy, I asked about overseas pensions. Unfortunately they did not have the data to hand and I still have not received it. I would like to know how much we are paying in contributory pensions to overseas recipients.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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That is a budgetary matter. We are on No. 1 on the agenda.

Marie Moloney (Labour)
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This relates to pensions across Europe.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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How does it relate to the particular meeting the Minister is scheduled to attend?

Marie Moloney (Labour)
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This relates to pensions across Europe.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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I ask the Senator to conclude.

Marie Moloney (Labour)
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A person can work in Ireland for ten years, move abroad to another EU country and work there for 40 years contributing to that economy. They can now come back when they reach pension age, claim a pension in Ireland, having worked here for ten years. However, they can also use what they have contributed in, for example, Britain, to increase their Irish pension pro rata. They can get a pension in Britain and in Ireland. I believe the pensions should be paid in the country where people contributed at the rate they contributed.

I have done some investigation and understand the administration cost of these pensions is enormous. Would the Minister consider introducing an administration fee to help lighten the burden?

Willie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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In case anyone misunderstood me initially, I welcome that there is now a focus at EU level on youth unemployment. While the Minister gave a very comprehensive reply to questions raised by various members of the committee, it lacked specifics. Perhaps because I am my party's spokesperson on this area, I received many queries following the newspaper report that there would be a youth guarantee scheme. There is considerable interest in such a scheme from people who are increasingly desperate. How many people does the Minister envisage will benefit from this? If she does not have the data, that is fine - I accept that. How much will it cost and who will pay for it? Are we really serious about it? Deputy Ó Snodaigh mentioned €300 million to €400 million, which might even be a conservative estimate given the potential numbers. I followed the Minister's reply as carefully as I could. She said there would be a meeting, another meeting, an agreement, a paper and then hopefully the EU would spend more of its social budget in this area. With all due respect, that is not very specific. I do not seek those answers for myself but for many young people and their families who have contacted me expressing some hope that at last something may be happening in this area.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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In response to the question by Senator Healy Eames there are no proposals at EU level on payments in respect of children being tied into vaccinations. That is an issue for a national competence and not an EU matter. The naming of the father on the birth certificate is a national issue for each country. I have responded to parliamentary questions indicating that I favour it. We are progressing that legislation which is being developed in the Department along with a number of other changes on registration. It follows the production of a detailed Law Reform Commission report on the area. One of the most important rights in the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child is the right of the child to have knowledge of who his or her parents are. In this country and in most European countries that information is held on the database of birth certificates and birth registers. Most European countries provide for it.

Senator Moloney asked about pensions Ireland pays to people overseas, most of whom are Irish. The Department is gathering the data following the Senator's question at last Thursday's meeting. I understand that approximately 50,000 people are getting such payments - most of them from Ireland. Many of these people might have worked in their youth in Ireland and then went to Britain to work. They then have some pension payments from the UK and some from Ireland. They would seek to maximise the pension from each jurisdiction. Most of those arrangements are the subject of bilateral agreements with different countries. The United Kingdom would be the major country because of the number of Irish people who emigrated from here to there in the 1950s and 1960s. The United States, Canada, Australia are the other principal countries. I will come back to the Senator with the details of those numbers, which are being researched in the Department.

Deputy O'Dea asked about the guarantee. The Deputy has been a member of Government and has been deeply involved in European Union affairs over a long period. The European Union progresses as follows. Proposals are made, which are then agreed through the European Commission, the European Parliament and the national governments. That has been in place since long before my time in government and also probably since long before the Deputy's time in government. There has been no advertised change in that.

The proposals on the youth guarantee are very positive and in many ways reflect what I have been doing since becoming Minister, which is to provide a structured pathway for people of various ages to go to work rather than having young people coming out of school and unable to get a job. They go on the live register and six months becomes a year which becomes two years. More than 9,000 people have taken advantage of the JobBridge mechanism we introduced, which backs up what the Deputy said about the enormous interest among young people in positive options. In addition we have places on traditional CE schemes. I am interested in developing a traineeship structure to expand the traditional opportunities that were available, particularly for young men in apprenticeships but which because of the collapse of the building industry are not available for the types of young men interested.

Not everybody wants to be an IT programmer or language writer. Many people want to work in retail, construction or banking at mid-level. In this respect, countries such as Germany have an established record of using traineeships to give people continuing education and work experience. This seems to work very well for these countries. How will the EU fund this? It can do so only through devoting some of its budget to it. This is why I stated, in view of the framework agreed by the Commission, the European Parliament and the member states, that I hope the European Social Fund will be one of the headings when it comes to determining the budget.

Earlier this year President Barroso sent officials to each member state to examine the issues there with regard to unemployment and young people. The Commission has a good overall picture of the terrible difficulties young people have. This is a positive development and I welcome it. During Ireland's Presidency I will do my utmost to advance this. As with all EU matters, it is for negotiation and advancement through discussion. In speaking about this we are returning to an older vision of the European Union which is as much about the social union and social progress as it is about bankers, who have understandably received the detailed attentions of the European Union in recent times. This is one of the reasons EPSCO will focus on such issues, which is a positive development.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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Does the Minister envisage that the EU will put up the money to fund this in its entirety in so far as it relates to Ireland?

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I did not say that. It would be very rare for the EU, as the Deputy knows, to fund anything in its entirety. It would be a question of allocating resources when the EU budget is being decided. In this field much of the resource allocation is matched by member states and organisations which may draw down the funds. This has long been the practice in the EU. I am not aware of any proposals to change this practice.

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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I did not get an answer to my question on the social insurance fund and the shortage.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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It is not a matter for this agenda. We will move on to the pre-budget discussion.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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If it is helpful, I will be covering the social insurance fund in the discussion on the budget.

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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Unfortunately I must leave, although I would love to hear an answer.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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I have given the Senator and other members much latitude. At the beginning of the meeting we agreed move on at 11 a.m.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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Perhaps the Minister will answer this one question.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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No, because it does not relate to the item under discussion. That is my ruling. I ask the Minister to make her presentation on the budget.