Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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I understand the Minister, Deputy Ruairí Quinn, will have to leave at 11.30 a.m. and ask members to note this when asking questions. I welcome the Minister and his officials. He has agreed to attend to brief the committee on the pre-budget situation in education and fulfil the commitment made in the programme for Government to the effect that Oireachtas committees will engage with Ministers as part of a whole-of-year approach to the scrutiny of the annual Estimates for departmental spending. The Minister will be familiar with the privilege provisions. He should be conscious of the long-standing parliamentary practice in that regard. I ask him to begin his presentation.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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I thank the joint committee for giving me an opportunity to engage in this discussion. I acknowledge the presence of the new Fianna Fáil spokesperson on education, Deputy Charlie McConalogue. I look forward to working with him and Deputy Jonathan O'Brien of Sinn Féin. If they would like to receive a briefing or any information from the Department of Education and Skills in their own right, they are perfectly entitled to receive it.

I thank the Chairman for inviting me to discuss with the committee the position of the Department in advance of budget 2013. When I presented the Department's Estimates for 2012 to the select committee in April this year, I said engagement with the committee was an important element of the "commitment in the programme for Government to open up the [Estimates and budgetary] process to wider public and parliamentary scrutiny." I also said, "I do not profess to have a monopoly of knowledge" in constructing Estimates that keep within the very tight Expenditure parameters set in the Government's comprehensive expenditure review of December 2011. Sadly, these parameters are necessarily tight, if we are to emerge from the current international programme of financial support and regain our economic sovereignty.

While the Government is ultimately responsible for preparing the Estimates of expenditure for 2013, I am happy to take advice on how we can go about this task with regard to educational expenditure. Therefore, I look forward to discussing these matters with the committee and receiving any input members may make in this regard. I hope the material my officials have provided for the committee will assist the discussion.

I propose to elaborate only briefly on the slides that were provided with the briefings, with the focus being on current expenditure. Committee members will also have received copies of the report produced by the Department as part of last year's comprehensive expenditure review process. The comprehensive expenditure review, CER, process has provided the basis for the medium-term expenditure framework for the period 2012-14. It set expenditure ceilings for each Department for that period. The task facing me and my Department for 2013 is to identify and implement the further savings measures that are necessary to keep expenditure within the CER ceiling as well as containing any further upward pressures, specifically demographic pressures on expenditure that may arise in the meantime.

I also mentioned in April that the 2013 Estimates for the Department will be based fully on the new performance budgeting format that was agreed by Government. The performance budgeting approach, by including specific information about the outputs and outcomes that will be delivered with the Estimates funding, alongside the more traditional information on expenditure, is designed to increase the focus on what is actually being delivered with public funds. This is to be welcomed.

Committee members will see from the first slide that budget 2012 shows the identification of savings measures amounting to approximately €132 million on the Education and Skills Vote in 2012, increasing to €206 million in 2013. These measures, which are summarised in the briefing material provided, none of which were easy to implement, did two things. First, they met the comprehensive expenditure review target of €76 million in savings for 2012, which were necessary to live within the voted current expenditure ceiling of €8,242 million.

Second, they also provided savings to fund important new initiatives and offset costs emerging on various areas of the Vote. These new initiatives included the literacy and numeracy strategy in schools, junior certificate reform and the roll-out of the 100 megabyte broadband to second level schools. The main upward pressures emerging were costs under the redress scheme as a result of the surge in applications received by the new closing date of last year. However, notwithstanding the saving that budget 2012 measures will deliver, one will see that in order to manage within a current expenditure ceiling of €8,165 million for 2013, I am obliged to identify a further set of measures to yield €77 million in savings next year.

This is before taking account of any further upward pressures on expenditure that may emerge in 2013. There are some indications that our allocation for teacher pay costs may be under pressure. A further area of uncertainty for 2013 will be the position regarding superannuation expenditures. Projections for superannuation expenditure in 2012 are putting very significant upward pressure on this year's allocation, due in large part to the increased number of retirements that took place in the early part of the year before the 29 February 2012. The Department is working hard to identify measures that can offset this upward pressure and the situation must be monitored very closely again for next year.

Finding further current expenditure savings next year of €77 million and containing upward pressures will be a significant challenge. The slides provide some idea of the scale of this challenge. Almost 78% of current expenditure of the Department is on pay and pensions, which covers the pay costs of just under 95,000 staff and goes towards the superannuation costs of approximately 38,000 pensioners.

In a situation where there is limited scope to reduce pay expenditure, especially given the continuing upward demographic pressures that have been summarised in the briefing material, much of the focus falls on those areas of non-pay expenditure on the Vote. The main components of non-pay expenditure are set out in the briefing material which also shows that effectively all elements of this non-pay expenditure have taken a hit as part of the range of budget savings and efficiency measures introduced over the past number of years by this and by the previous Administration. As I already indicated, few of these measures have been implemented without pain. I am very conscious of the need as far as possible to protect front-line education services, particularly for the most disadvantaged.

I must, however, accept the reality, as we all do, that failure to meet public expenditure targets now will have much more serious implications in the years ahead, including for our continued ability to maintain high quality education services into the future. It is certainly not the most favourable backdrop against which to formulate an education budget but we have a duty to act today in order to secure tomorrow.

Aside from the pressing need to make savings in day-to-day expenditure, the Government is also committed to reducing the numbers employed in the public service. I am increasingly of the view that this is perhaps the biggest challenge for our education system in the coming years. Our education workforce overwhelmingly consists of teachers, lecturers, special needs assistants and support staff. The challenge will be to deliver the same level of public services with fewer staff. In addition, the demographic boom in children which our country is experiencing at present will mean the demand for education is only going to increase.

As a social democrat, I did not enter politics with an ideological ambition to reduce the level of services in our education system. However, if we did not have a cataclysmic economic crisis in Ireland, we would still be facing some very difficult choices in education spending in the years ahead. We have a growing demand for services and self-evidently we have limited resources. It is a national tragedy that the grossly negligent handling of our country's public finances by previous Fianna Fáil Governments have added to our list of woes in this regard.

When I was Minister for Finance in the 1990s, I firmly believed we had to have a mixed social economy which was competitive, where we lived within our means, but where we delivered public services that helped and delivered for all in our society. That challenge was ignored for 14 years but it did not go away. We have to make up for lost time during a very difficult and painful balance sheet recession and where our membership of the eurozone has removed some of the tools we had in the past to restore our economic fortunes.

Though I am a heartfelt advocate of Keynesian economics, we simply cannot continue to borrow each year significantly more than we take in through revenue. It is not a sustainable model and if unchecked will have much more far-reaching consequences in the years ahead.

The process of shaping the budget for 2013 is under way. I will be bringing proposals to Government as to how my Department can deliver an Estimate for next year that will remain within the expenditure target set under the comprehensive expenditure review. I am exploring with officials all areas of expenditure and drawing on the CER report which was produced by the Department last September in this regard. Deputies and Senators will recall that last December I tried to give the education system some certainty by announcing some multi-annual reductions to allow schools and colleges and parents and students to plan for the years ahead. I have no choice but to maintain the reduced capitation grants announced for primary and post-primary schools and pay and non-pay funding for higher education institutions.

Similarly, in relation to the teacher allocations for small schools with four teachers or less, I announced a three-year phased adjustment to the pupil-teacher ratios last December.

The four-year plan of reductions in language support teacher numbers announced by the previous Fianna Fáil-Green Party Government in 2010 will unfortunately continue. Despite these reductions there still remains a challenge of finding €77 million of savings in 2013 as well as containing the costs of emerging upward pressure. It is important to remember that without the measures I have referred to the target required for next year would be even bigger.

Aside from these measures, I realise the Government must strive to be fair and to ensure the burden is shared equally. It is important for social solidarity that those who have the most provide a bigger share of the contribution to our recovery. I am sure this is a sentiment that all members present will agree with. Such is the scale of the challenge that everyone must make some contribution and the debate should be based on the acceptance of that fact.

I would strongly encourage each and every member to read the outputs from the comprehensive expenditure review process in the coming weeks and months. They list a wide range of options for current expenditure savings that are open to the Government to consider. Much as I wish, there is no magic list of easier alternative savings hidden somewhere in Marlborough Street.

Chairman, I am happy to hear the views of members today and I look forward to having a constructive, frank and rigorous debate on the decisions that must be taken.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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I thank the Minister. The Minister referred to the copy of the slides which were circulated with the agenda, but if any member needs a copy of the slides, please indicate this to the secretariat.

I call the Fianna Fáil spokesperson, to be followed by the Sinn Féin spokesperson.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the Minister to the committee. I look forward to working with him on what is an extremely important Department. I thank him for taking the opportunity to appear before the committee well in advance of the budgetary negotiations to outline his position.

Education has to be a important aspect of our future economic foundation and of a strong and healthy society. As such it is one of the key areas that must be protected in the current environment where there are many budgetary pressures. We are aware of the effects that the cuts introduced in the past and those introduced by the Minister last year have had on the education system. Given that pay and pensions account for 78% of spending, I understand the difficulty for the current side of expenditure.

Some of the initiatives announced by the Minister last year were disappointing in light of commitments given by him previously, particularly the decision to remove the maintenance grant to students, one third of whom benefited in the past and, as a result, would have been exempt from fees. I raised the issue in the House yesterday as well as the issue of the post graduate loan deal which the Minister has endorsed from the Bank of Ireland, which is the only source for many of those students to fund their post graduate education at a high interest rate of 10.8%. As I said yesterday, that was a poor deal on behalf of the Minister given that he encouraged students to take up that loan.

In regard to the €77 million the Minister is seeking to find in this year's budget from current expenditure, how much of that amount includes initiatives already announced, such as continuing decreases to capitation fees to schools and the student registration fee, which he plans to increase by €250 in the next two to three years, and additional initiatives?

What is the Minister's position on maintenance grants? Prior to the last general election, the Labour Party and Fine Gael indicated they would establish a student loan facility. What is the Government's policy on that issue? Will the Minister give an assurance there will be no change to the maintenance grants system for undergraduate students, given the additional pressures on families due to increased fees?

On the issue of special needs, last year and this year there have been real difficulties at primary level for students who need that additional assistance to keep up and stay within the education system. What are the Minister's plans for special needs students in the budget to ensure they will be protected?

In regard to changes made to the school transport scheme last year, following a query to the Department we were unable to ascertain the budgetary savings. In fact, the response from the Minister of State, Deputy Ciarán Cannon, in the House was that it was not yet possible to be clear as to what the savings might be. The changes I refer to are that students are required to travel to their nearest school only. I ask the Minister to revisit that issue as in many cases there will be no saving to the Department. The number of families affected is relatively small but it is causing a real difficulty to them with no real budgetary impact. It is within the Minister's power to address the issue in the run-up to the budget.

An issue which has been topical in recent days is the Minister's response to the move by Clare County Council to attach payment of the household charge to the issuing of a third level grant. The Minister's casual response was irresponsible. In effect, he is abdicating responsibility for determining the terms of the maintenance grant to local authorities whose role is to administer it. The job of deciding who is eligible for a maintenance grant is that of the Minister. When a county council, whose role is to administer it, decides to attach additional conditions to it, and the Minister's response is that it is okay, that is an irresponsible approach. Why should that be a condition in one council area and not in others? Why should it be a condition in Clare but not a condition for applying to the Student Universal Support System, SUSI, administered by the Minister?

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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I invite the Deputy to conclude as quickly as possible.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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Where does one draw the line? What happens if a family is in rent arrears or water rates arrears to a council? The Minister is no longer setting the terms but says it is perfectly fair for a local authority to set those terms. In the House yesterday, the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Phil Hogan, widened the issue and said it was fair for a council where a family was in arrears to attach those conditions. I hope the Minister will clarify the issue at the committee today, lay down a consistent approach and take responsibility for the conditions for receiving maintenance grants. It is not acceptable that it should be tied and that others should decide the issue.

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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This is different from what we did on the Joint Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality. Some of the questions will be similar. I welcome the Minister to the committee and look forward to working with him in the coming months and years. There is no doubt he has a difficult job and there are huge challenges within the education portfolio to overcome. I will be as constructive as possible but will also be critical when the need arises. It is not only my job to offer alternatives but also to keep the Minister to account.

I understand the €77 million saving will be outside the multi-annual announcements made last year in respect of capitation grants and reductions to language support teachers. The challenge facing the Department in trying to find the €77 million is evident. In regard to capitation grants, has the Department carried out an assessment of the impact the announcement had last year? Some schools, including those attended by my children, are being asked to take with them basic items such as toilet rolls because schools no longer provide basic toiletries. That gives a sense of the pressure under which some schools operate. As there will be a further reduction in the capitation grants next year, this will start to affect front-line services.

Front-line services will be affected by the ongoing cuts to services. The financial cost of sending children to school is increasing. A review of the book lending scheme took place and a voluntary code of practice was put in place. This is not the meeting at which to discuss the issue but I would like to hear the Minister's views on how the voluntary code of practice is working, the buy-in and the tangible benefits arising.

In January, the Minister asked his officials to examine the whole area of fee-paying schools. Will he give the committee an update on its report and the outcome?

Deputy McConalogue raised the issue of the post primary school transport scheme. The way in which the scheme was implemented this year was a disaster. Parents made decisions in November 2011 on the schools their children would attend, yet five months later they received notification stating they would not qualify due to changes in the scheme. I am aware of a couple whose two children attend the same post primary school, one qualified because of being in the scheme already while the second child did not qualify. One had the option of availing of the school transport scheme while the other child has to be driven to school. Such situations on the ground create problems.

In regard to the €77 million saving, has the Minister identified areas, red-line issues, that he will not touch because of previous announcements in respect of cuts in that area or in terms of the multi-annual cut in funding? It would be easier to identify the areas not being considered than the areas being considered. Will the Minister indicate the areas that will have to be examined this year which would not impact on the most disadvantaged?

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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I thank the Deputies for their questions and comments. With regard to third level fees, the so-called student charge, which has been rebranded for what it is, was €2,000 when the Government came into office. It was increased by €250 last year and will increase again by the same amount, to a maximum of €3,000. The revenue from increasing it by €250 this year amounts to approximately €18 million, which is a considerable amount of money. Some 42% of students in the university and third level college system are in receipt of some form of grant, either the full grant and maintenance or a partial grant.

As Opposition spokesperson on education for Fine Gael, Deputy Brian Hayes, now Minister of State at the Department of Finance, said his party was in favour of a student loan system. I took that to mean, subject to correction, that it would be a State student loan scheme similar to that in place in other in other countries. The loan scheme introduced by Bank of Ireland, to which Deputy McConalogue referred, is one on which it has taken the initiative. I welcomed its appearance in the system. Prior to that one could get a bank loan as a student but it depended on one's parents underwriting or going guarantor. Subject to correction, under the bank loan scheme which Bank of Ireland has launched, the student services only the interest. When students graduate and move to the labour market they pay back the capital. The scheme is open to students in their own right and is not dependent on guarantees from other family members. That is a welcome addition and as it comes without State underwriting or State guarantees, there is no exposure for the State. It is not a Government-backed or a State-backed system.

I am conscious that the introduction of changes to the school transport system for post-primary schools has created some distortions and difficulties. I had a briefing meeting this morning with the Minister of State, Deputy Cannon, who is directly responsible for it. I am interested in feedback, particularly from Deputy McConalogue, who has a conscious experience from Donegal North-East of its impact. My understanding is that the rule is confined. If one is entitled to it, one gets free transport to the nearest school but if, for whatever reason, one sends one child to a school further away than the nearest school, one is not entitled to transport and must pay a concessionary fee. The displacement in that area is comparatively small, according to the briefing I received, but it is acute for the families directly affected. We will look at amelioration measures when we have got a better quantification. The schools reopened only three weeks ago and we are still trying to get information. If Members have typical cases it would be useful for us to get them and we can examine whether there are ways of ameliorating the scheme. For example, if there is spare capacity on the bus, and we know the pattern, then some movement should be facilitated. The Minister of State and his officials said they are still evaluating the impact and the feedback from people around the country. If Members have specific information we would be happy to hear it.

At 7.50 a.m. yesterday on my way to Government Buildings, I was asked about the decision taken by Clare County Council about payment of the household charge. I was not aware of it at the time and had not been consulted. I understand Tipperary County Council proposes to similar course of action. We must be clear about this. Nobody likes paying taxes. This is a specific tax that has provoked co-ordinated opposition from political groups and individuals across the country. Approximately two thirds of the population has paid the tax. In the case of Clare County Council, a person was seeking taxpayers' money to go to college but that taxpayers' money has to come from those who pay the tax, It is a legal requirement that one pays the tax; it is not a voluntary contribution. It was quite reasonable for Clare County Council to ask if one's household had paid the tax. To my knowledge, it did not say any more.

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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The letter states that in order to progress the first payment of the instalment the council will need proof of payment of the household charge. Effectively, it said that unless one can prove that one has paid the household charge it would not release the grant.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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I will have to get a full briefing on that across the country. It is not unreasonable that people who are seeking support from the taxpayer pay their contribution to the tax. This would not have arisen had a campaign not been launched not to pay the charge. It is a condition of the memorandum of understanding with the troika, upon whom we depend to get the money to run the education system, that we had to introduce a property charge by a particular date.

The only way we could do it was to introduce a flat rate charge for one year. It is unfair and I know it is unfair but an awful lot of taxes are unfair. A millionaire and an unemployed person must pay the same price for a pint and there are a lot of taxes like that.

Clare Daly (Dublin North, Socialist Party)
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The person in receipt of the grant is not eligible to pay the household tax, yet it is their education or their access to financial assistance that is being denied.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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One could have a household next door where the person, in terms of income, is in the same situation yet has paid the tax.

Clare Daly (Dublin North, Socialist Party)
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The household tax has nothing to do with the grant.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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Perhaps the Deputy might wait as she is next on my list to pose questions.

Marie Moloney (Labour)
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Can members speak on the current issue?

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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No.

Marie Moloney (Labour)
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If not, we will have to raise the matter again when it is our turn to speak.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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People can make their points but the Minister is clarifying the matter. We have an agreed order for questions so please allow the Minister to conclude.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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I am addressing the issue but members can ask me additional questions in their own time.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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If that is the case then he is allowing Clare to call the shots. Does he intend to indicate to SUSI that it should do the same? He is allowing the terms and conditions for who should receive a third level grant to go out of his hands and placing them in the hands of its administrators where they are being applied inconsistently.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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The Deputy availed of a long time slot earlier and should conclude in the interest of other members.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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Let me respond. Yesterday morning was the first time that I heard about the matter. The members have heard the answer that I gave and I am not resiling from that response today.

There is a new system called the Student Universal Support System, SUSI. The legislation to facilitate it was introduced by my predecessor and the City of Dublin VEC won the contract to administer it. I am happy to say that 66 administrative bodies have been reduced to one and I am reliably informed that the new system is working satisfactorily. The person in Clare mentioned in this instance was already in receipt of a grant and dealt with the granting authority which was Clare County Council. It could just as easily have been Clare VEC. I have not given any consideration yet to the implications of the case and I await developments but that is my position as of today.

Averil Power (Fianna Fail)
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One of the questions I posed before other Deputies came in was on the same issue. Can I ask a question?
Chairman: The Deputy is on the list for questions.

Aodhán Ó Ríordáin (Dublin North Central, Labour)
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On a point of order, we are dealing with a pre-budget briefing and the matter raised has nothing to do with it. The Deputies have other avenues in which to raise such issues.

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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We can move on to them later.

Aodhán Ó Ríordáin (Dublin North Central, Labour)
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I know that it is convenient from a journalistic point of view to raise the issue now. There are other avenues within the Oireachtas in which to raise the issue. It is not a pre-budget briefing matter.

Averil Power (Fianna Fail)
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With respect, it is not the Deputy's job to decide what the Minister will answer.

Aodhán Ó Ríordáin (Dublin North Central, Labour)
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I ask the Chairman to communicate on the matter.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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Senator Power is at the top of the list for questions and we have an agreed order. It is not fair for a member to jump in ahead of others instead of raising his or her hand to be put on the list.

Averil Power (Fianna Fail)
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I have no difficulty with that. I want to be sure of the protocol. If we are grouping questions together then that is fair enough.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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No, I am not.

Averil Power (Fianna Fail)
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I have no difficulty waiting ten minutes to ask my question. I just want to ensure that I will not be told at that stage that the issue has been dealt with.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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Deputies and Senators are being taken in accordance with the order that we agreed for these meetings and we will continue like that. The Minister shall conclude. He will be followed by Deputy Clare Daly and Senator Healy Eames because they have indicated. That is the order in which they shall be taken and Deputy Power is also on the list. I ask the Minister to conclude.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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I shall return to the points raised by Deputy Jonathan O'Brien. The sum of €77 million is additional moneys that I must find. Any changes that we make in the education budget in December will have an impact in September 2013 and for the following academic year. If a reduction is made by savings, we can only collect one third of it in 2013. Any changes I make in December will provide one third of the savings over the December 2012 to September 2013 period and two thirds thereafter. It lowers the burden in one sense. The amount of savings, in some cases, is only one third and I hope that the Deputy can see the obvious reason for that.

The impact a reduction in capitation grant has on schools is uneven. In many cases we do not know what schools have. We have been told that some schools have savings. Other schools virtually live from hand to mouth and the Deputy's description is an indication of that. We are trying to assist schools in terms of public procurement where together they can receive discounts by virtue of their purchasing power, and we will explore further options. We have already introduced facilities to allow the joint purchase of electricity. As each school is a stand-alone island at the moment. one depends on the co-operation of management bodies. As many as 92% of the schools come under the remit of the Catholic Primary School Management Association. We are trying to encourage the schools to use their combined purchasing power to reduce some of their costs and that is the direction we are taking. Obviously, the issue of toiletries referred to is not the same as savings on electricity costs. In the future I would see the new education and training boards as having a role at regional level. There will be 16 boards across the country and they will play a role in facilitating cost-cutting for schools in their area. For example, there could be 200 or 300 primary schools in a local education and training board area. The schools could combine administratively and use their collective purchasing power to secure discounts to offset some of the impact - but not all of the impact - of a reduction in capitation grants.

With regard to the book lending scheme, we have a code of practice but I am not sure if members have the details. We have a commitment from the publishers that they will not arbitrarily change the texts of some of the books for a new edition and they will keep books in print for a period to reduce the cost of school books at primary and second levels.

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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It happens all of the time and the scheme is not working.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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If it is not working then I ask the Senator to bring the instance to my attention and we can contact the publishers.

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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Yes.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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Should we be talking about a book lending scheme or getting the intellectual copyright of a lot of the stuff to download it for free to whatever device a student uses?We are in a Gutenberg moment where devices will change.

Deputy Jonathan O'Brien asked me other questions about fee-paying schools. The free voluntary scheme is what it says on the tin. All second level schools charged fees up until 1966 or 1967. Donogh O'Malley introduced a scheme whereby voluntary schools could not be compelled to opt into the system - I am talking about 730 post primary schools in total. The scheme also provided that the fees would be eliminated and that the Government would pay a capitation grant in lieu. At the time 56 schools stayed out of the system. At the moment we have 56 fee-paying schools, 22 of which are under the patronage of the reformed church and Protestant community. As the Deputy mentioned, we have asked them to provide an account and, speaking from memory, the figure that the schools receive collectively is of the order of €120 million. We have asked them to give us an account of what they do with that money. We are analysing a significant number of their responses but we have not received them all. Such analysis will inform my response when deciding the budget for the scheme.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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As the Minister must leave at 11.30 a.m. perhaps he will wait until the next couple of questioners make their contribution.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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Yes. Please tell me to shut up when I speak too much.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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I call Deputy Clare Daly as she is part of the Technical Group.

Clare Daly (Dublin North, Socialist Party)
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I must go somewhere else and I would not disrespect the Minister by asking him a question that he cannot answer. I will return.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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The Government spokesperson is next and I call Senator Healy Eames. She will be followed by Deputy Simon Harris.

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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I welcome the Minister and I appreciate his array of slides which have proved helpful. They support the case that he has made for a long time about the increase in student numbers. He has a strong case because he has 95,000 whole-time equivalent staff in the system and in 2013 there will be 1,235 extra staff needed at primary and second level and more than 4,000 extra students at third level. Providing a service for all of this will come at an enormous cost to the system and yet he needs to find €77 million. On his behalf I shall plant a few seeds in the mind of the Minister for Finance by saying that the Minister for Education and Skills should be asked to make a smaller reduction. Obviously, I can see the dilemma that he is faced with because 78% of his budget is spent on pay and pensions which only leaves him with 22% to pay for the service. Unless there is a service provided there will be no education. I ask him to examine the strong case that he can make for a smaller reduction.

The Minister indicated that the allocation for teacher pay costs may be under pressure. I ask him to elaborate a little on that comment, specifically, allowances and increments, which are the elephant in the room. What percentage of the pay bill is allocated towards allowances and increments? The Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Howlin, did a very bad job on allowances yesterday. Although I am in favour of protecting pay, this should not necessarily include allowances and increments. I made a case to the Fine Gael Parliamentary Party on the issue of increments, about which Deputy Harris has also spoken, in which I argued against paying increments to staff in the public service earning more than €55,000 per annum. I ask the Minister to justify the payment of increments to staff earning more than that figure in a recession. I chose the figure of €55,000 after consulting Social Justice Ireland and the Conference of Religious of Ireland, CORI, on poverty-proofing a family of two adults and four children, which is a relatively large family by today's standards. I ask the Minister to comment on the issue of increments.

There has been speculation that the Minister will consider increasing the length of the school day and school year to achieve better efficiencies in the system. One may ask how this will save money, although I accept it could have an effect on teacher performance. However, primary school children may not have the capacity to learn more if the school day is extended. I know this from personal experience. I accept that extending the school day at secondary level could result in more classes being taught. Other than teacher performance issues, how would such a measure save money?

Over the weekend, the Minister for Health, Deputy Reilly, agreed a deal with hospital consultants, the group that enjoys the highest levels of pay in the health service. Has the Minister considered trying to secure a similar deal with senior lecturers, university heads and other staff in third level education who earn in excess of €100,000 per annum?

Does the Minister envisage increasing the pupil-teacher ratio this year, a measure that would result in further cuts in teacher numbers? Last year was very difficult, particularly in small rural schools. I am aware that a plan is in place in this regard and do not expect the Minister to return to this issue as it may be a red-line issue. Does the Minister envisage introducing further cuts in teacher numbers this year?

I seek clarification on one further minor matter. Referring to the rate of capitation at second level, the Minister alluded to a school services support fund of €201 per pupil. What precisely is this fund?

The allocation for the literacy and numeracy strategy is €7 million in 2012 and €6 million in 2012. How is this money spent? What extra benefits does it deliver to schools?

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister for his detailed presentation which sets out in a sobering and stark manner the challenges facing Members of the Oireachtas and those working in the education system. Many of my questions relate to the need to face up to the reality and knowledge that we must spend the funds available to us well. With this in mind, I will start with a question on special needs education. While I do not advocate any reduction in the number of special needs assistants, I have been a long-time critic of the criteria ascribed to the role of special needs assistants. Many special needs assistants are not being utilised or are not in a position to be utilised owing to the criteria laid down by the Department. In some cases, they are paid a salary roughly equivalent to a new entrant teacher, yet the tasks they must perform under these criteria include tidying up the classroom at the end of the day. A wide range of people work as special needs assistants. Some have obtained a junior certificate while others have master's degrees and every type of intermediate qualification. This issue needs to be examined.

I am aware that the Department, through the National Council for Special Education, NCSE, is expecting to receive advice on special educational needs policy. That this policy has not been reviewed since 1993 is an outright disgrace. It is exciting and helpful that the NCSE is carrying out the review. I ask the Minister to provide an update on progress. As he stated, despite spending a great deal on special educational needs, we are not getting the full bang for our buck in many cases.

The issue of public sector allowances arose yesterday. I note that one of the allowances to be discontinued for new entrants to the teaching profession is the qualifications allowance. Considering that we want those who teach our children and prepare them for participation in the labour force to be the best and brightest, how will discontinuing this allowance fit in with the need to incentivise teachers to upskill and constantly learn new skills? While I accept that the allowance may be too broad and encompass too many areas, it could be targeted at improving the skills we want teachers to bring into the classroom. Understanding that the Minister may not be able to do this at this point, I ask him to outline his position on the matter, at least from an ideological point of view.

What are we teaching our children? The responses I have received to a number of parliamentary questions I have tabled on the teaching of information technology and so forth suggest everything is rosy in garden, various programmes are in place and so forth. I visited the Digital Hub in Dublin and it is clear that the people who are creating jobs do not believe this is the case. The PayPal company, for example, has been unable to find recruits to fill 1,000 positions in County Louth. We talk about a smart economy but a EUROSTAT survey shows that Irish people between the ages of 16 and 24 years are below the European average for computer literacy. The time spent in the classroom and the subject matter being taught are important.

Everybody should pay the household charge and it is logical that those who refuse to do so should not expect to receive the most efficient service from their local authority. I am concerned, however, about the lack of legal basis for the approach taken by Clare County Council in linking payment of the charge with the payment of third level grants and the geographical inconsistency of its approach. The Department needs to examine this issue. If Clare County Council's approach is to be the rule, it should be prescribed in regulation or legislation. If not, local authorities should not take the law into their own hands. Clarity is needed on this matter.

On the Croke Park agreement, if teachers receive allowances which are effectively core pay, as I believe to be the case, when will these allowances be described as pay? If, for example, yard duty allowance forms part of pay, it should be described as such.

At a meeting of the Committee of Public Accounts I asked representatives of the Health Service Executive how many of its staff are earning more than €70,000 per annum, how many of this group are receiving increments this year and what will be the cost of these increments. As policy makers frame their budget and as we move towards the conclusion of the Croke Park agreement, we need to have this type of data available to us. Is such data available for the Department of Education and Skills and, if so, will the Minister make it available to us?

Averil Power (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister for his presentation and for appearing before the joint committee so far in advance of the budget. I appreciate that he has a difficult job to do. Responsibility for protecting education should not be solely the task of the Minister but should extend to everyone who sits around the Cabinet table because the impact of some cuts in the Department are felt across other areas. Moreover, the costs are often many times the savings achieved. We saw this last year with the cuts imposed on disadvantaged schools where the potential long-term costs to the social welfare and justice systems are far greater than the initial savings.

Deputy Harris referred to PayPal and problems it is experiencing in the area of information technology. Strong criticism has also been made of cuts in the modern languages programme. Companies such as PayPal argue that Irish people are losing jobs because industries cannot find people with language skills. As a result, firms based here as a result of valuable multinational investment are hiring recruits elsewhere while people here are being paid social welfare benefits. I fail to understand how cutting the modern languages initiative made economic sense from a multi-departmental point of view. Ahead of the budget, what procedures are in place in the Department and across government to ensure cuts of this nature are considered on a cross-departmental basis and a proper cost-benefit analysis is done on the overall costs to the State, including whether the cuts will result in costs several times higher than the savings to be achieved in the Department's budget?

There has been much discussion about the actions of Clare County Council here this morning. The reason it is a budgetary matter is that the Minister is the one who is legally exposed. Because the Minister has the delegated authority, which is then passed on to the administering bodies, for the grant scheme, if somebody takes a case it would be against the Department. If the Minister had provided cover for an illegal act of an administrative body, then he is exposed. For the information of Deputy Ó Ríordáin, that is why it is a budgetary matter and it is something that should be discussed here. If money is wasted on such legal cases, it is not available for special needs education, disadvantaged schools or other areas.

There was commentary by legal experts in the newspapers this morning on the fact that the Government is penalising one person for the actions of another. I would share the view that everybody should pay the household charge. It is grossly irresponsible for Members of the Dáil, although they may have made a case against the charge, to encourage non-payment. It was democratically voted through the Dáil. My party had issues with it, but it was voted through and it should be paid. I have no difficulty with that. If the person being penalised was the person who had not paid it, many would say it was fair enough. Many who have paid it wished they did not have to, were under massive pressure to do so and had to save over a few weeks to be able to afford it, and it is difficult for them to turn around and see others get away with not doing so. There is an equity issue in that regard in general but one cannot penalise one person for the actions of another. I do not see how there is any basis legally for penalising students over 18 for their parents, not having paid the charge. Will the Minister for Education and Science ensure that he gets legal advice as to any potential exposure he might have in this issue?

We discussed the issue of vetting in the Seanad before the summer recess and the Minister gave a commitment that he would discuss it with other Cabinet colleagues. In the context of flexibility, I appreciate there is the employment control framework, but the Teaching Council has the funding. The Teaching Council is a self-financing body and it is not sensible not to let it spend the funding available. I ask the Minister to give us an update on the position and whether that issue has been resolved over the summer.

The report on fee-paying schools will be published. I wonder whether that will involve a sensitivity analysis of what different options might be. Nobody would advocate that the Minister would withdraw funding overnight. Certainly, there would be an economic cost to that because if students move from one school to another, it will cost the State system more. Perhaps the Minister needs to be at least publishing and allowing a public debate on options such as a phased withdrawal over a number of years. Considering the social cost, perhaps there is a saving in a pure economic sense in terms of the reduced capitation fee and such matters. Education is not only about what is on the curriculum; it is about the social interaction in a school. Every child should go to school with children whose parents earn much more and with children whose parents earn much less. The effect of the present system is this does not happen. I would like to know the level of detail the Minister would expect to be put into the public domain so that we can have a proper debate on it.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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I will call the last couple of speakers who indicated, Deputy Ó Ríordáin and Senator Moloney.

Aodhán Ó Ríordáin (Dublin North Central, Labour)
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I appreciate the Minister's attendance to discuss the budget with plenty of advance notice.

I will touch on a few of the issues and perhaps the Minister can give me some response. I understand he is under pressure of time.

I raised the potential for a national book lending scheme, particularly at primary level, with the Minister previously. He made a valid point about the way second level is going, with technology like tablets and digitisation. Such a scheme could have a major impact on the cost savings for parents. Where is the Department on that and what is its potential cost?

Is there an education audit right across the system? Often campaigns or issues within the education system are politically convenient but when one strips them down to look at their educational value, sometimes a case can be made for one or another. Does that happen in terms of issues such as modern languages or class size? Where a lobby group is making a strong case, what systems or mechanisms are there within the Department to state what international research shows?

Returning to the ability of principals to manage their schools, about which Deputy O'Brien spoke, the compartmentalisation of grants to schools and the autonomy of a principal to make a decision on how to run his or her school the way he or she wants in tandem with the board of management, one may get a block grant for IT which one may not need and would much rather spend on day-to-day items such as toiletries. The Minister might comment on moving towards a system where the principal would have the autonomy to make those decisions.

I will return to the Minister on the special needs issue. I still have major concerns about GAM and that funding is not targeted at the most disadvantaged, but this is probably not the proper forum in which to raise that issue.

Senator Healy Eames touched on the reform packages. In terms of the literacy initiatives, the forum on patronage and pluralism and all of the reforms that the Department is thankfully carrying out, it is quite an exciting time to be involved in education. Is the added cost of doing all of this a major budgetary item? Does it have a major impact on the spend of the Department? When the Minister rolls out a new scheme or initiative, he takes on a vested interest or he takes on a body of work that has been left untouched for a period of time and there is a cost involved. Is it a major or minor cost? Is it something that we need to focus on?

Marie Moloney (Labour)
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I thank the Minister for taking the time to brief us. Many of my points have already been covered. When one gets to the end of the pile, it has been done. I will merely touch on a few matters.

The SNA is what it says, a special needs assistant. It is an assistant for a child with special needs, not an assistant to clean up the classroom or to do other things. The role of the SNA must be looked at and defined better. With that, we may be able to utilise the services of an SNA for more than one child in the classroom rather than having them cleaning up the classroom. I am sure the Minister will look at that. Fee-paying schools is an issue but we will await the report on that.

The Minister asked for suggestions as to how money could be saved. I am not sure whether this will save money but it should not happen. I refer to the re-employment of retired teachers to supervise examinations. Last year 1,100 retired teachers came back to supervise examinations. It is a scandal. When there are young teachers crying out for jobs, one should not bring retired teachers back into the classroom. That practice should be done away with. The Department should hire the younger teachers and save them leaving the country.

As in the case of the consultants, perhaps an approach should be made to the lecturers about their fees. If we must go into conciliation, the Minister should do so. He should approach them anyway and look at reducing their fees.

Some schools conduct book rental schemes and others do not. Parents are suffering because of the high cost of books.

The Minister mentioned that the student contribution would come to a maximum of €3,000. Is that €3,000 for the year or €3,000 over the programme for Government? Is that the maximum increase there will be or is it merely the maximum for the coming year?

I am glad the Minister will look at school transport. I have come across similar instances of one child going on the bus free and the other not.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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I will try to go through this as quickly as possible and give factual responses.

Basic pay for primary schools, as distinct from increments, is 72% of expenditure, and it is the same for school teachers. Where we will go with this is set in the context of a new pay agreement, the second Croke Park agreement. In the Civil Service, one comes in at a recruitment grade of executive officer and if one gets promotion to higher executive officer, one gets additional responsibilities and an additional workload. In the public service, something similar would be ideal, so that if one gets to be an assistant principal or gets a particular role, the salary increase would automatically involve corresponding responsibilities.

The system is a very old one. It has grown up and has been renegotiated numerous times. There have been a large number of accretions to it. If members look at the list of allowances across the entire system they will see that some of them make sense while others are nonsensical.

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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What does the Minister mean by basic pay is 72%? Does he mean that basic pay is 72% before increments and allowances?

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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Including increments, basic pay amounts to 72% of what primary school teachers are paid. Qualifications allowances amount to 7%, post of responsibility allowances amount to 5%, supervision substitution allowances amount to 3% and substitution for things like maternity leave amounts to-----

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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That could not be absolute across all primary school teachers.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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Please allow the Minister to continue.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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Sorry; this is the breakdown of the overall spend. I can make these figures available to members. They make more sense on paper and we will only take up valuable time now going through them.

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister for that.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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On the subject of special needs assistants, we are undertaking a major review of the whole area of special needs education for the first time since 1993. We are looking at the breakdown in the allocation of time for resource teachers and special needs teachers, as well as the role of the SNA. It is time to review it and the National Council for Special Education, NCSE, and the section within the Department with responsibility in this area are undertaking that study. I will communicate with the committee on the outcome of that and perhaps members might like to engage with the NCSE directly on it.

There is no change to the pupil-teacher ratios in small schools. They are as they were announced last year and we are not doing anything more in that area. On the issue of technology, the rate of change in the world of technology is such that most young people probably know more than a middle-aged teacher about technology as it stands. It is probably the case that the pupils could teach the teachers, rather than the other way around. However, in so far as we have an up-to-date position on it, the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment, NCCA's, ICT framework, which offers a structured approach to the use of ICT in curriculum and assessment, has been made available to all primary and post-primary schools. It deals with digital literacy, which is an integral part of a student's ongoing education. To be honest with the Deputy, at a family gathering last August, a grandniece of mine, who is 18 months old, picked up a Nokia mobile telephone, which was not a smartphone. She kept running her hand over the screen and was wondering why nothing was happening.

It is a bit like the book rental scheme. We could invest an awful lot of money in a book rental scheme and find that, in ten years time, the iPad has replaced all of them. Books are very expensive. We spend €50 million per year on the book grant and it is of limited value. Therefore, I would hesitate to invest in a technology that could be replaced very quickly. We are at what I call the Gutenberg tipping moment, which. looking back in history, occurred at one point in time, but we all know with technological change that things get phased in and phased out.

Senator Power asked about the languages initiative, which was a pilot programme involving about 800 schools teaching modern languages to pupils in fifth and sixth class. It was not rolled out or mainstreamed because it was not considered by the NCEA to be very effective. There is an argument that for many primary school teachers, there is already curriculum overload.
Deputy Ó Ríordáin spoke about the special cost of reform policies, particularly with regard to literacy and numeracy. The total full-year cost for literacy and numeracy programmes was €19 million, which I had to find last year by various means, one of which was closing down the languages initiative. Apologies - the cost this year was €6 million, next year it will be €7 million and in a full year, it will reach €19 million. That figure includes the cost of the extra year's education for primary school teachers and the extra year for the higher diploma too.

On the issue of the roll-out of broadband, 200 secondary schools will get the full 100 Mb connection this year, another 200 will be connected next year and a further 200 the following year. There are many schools in urban areas that are already connected so every school at second level will be fully connected by the end of the programme. That capacity will enable them to deal with an enormous amount of traffic. The cost of that will be €10 million in a full year. The Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources has the capital to install the broadband and is maintaining the service charge for a number of years, after which it will be the responsibility of the Department of Education and Skills.

Senators referred to comments made by PayPal and others regarding recruitment difficulties. PayPal representatives have admitted - I have this second-hand, so it is subject to a health warning - that in many cases they were looking for native speakers of a foreign language because of the nature of the transactions being processed. We are still receiving their income tax and their spending in the economy. I would prefer if the jobs were filled by local people here, obviously, but there is an economic gain from their presence here.

Members referred to the Teaching Council. Section 30 of the Teaching Council Act 2001, which requires that a teacher must be registered with the Teaching Council in order to be paid from public moneys, will be activated. There are some edges of ambiguity as to who is qualified as a teacher, particularly in the further education and VEC sectors. There is no ambiguity in primary and secondary schools. I do not want anybody to be arbitrarily cutoff the payroll as a result of not being qualified and we are in active discussions with Tomás Ó Ruairc of the Teaching Council to sort that out. As and when the section is activated, a teacher, in order to be paid, will have to be registered with the Teaching Council, and a condition of registration will be continuous professional development. In other words, teachers will be in the same category as accountants, doctors, architects, solicitors and others. It will be up to the new Teaching Council, appointed earlier this year, to set the priorities in continual professional development but I hope it will concentrate on upskilling and ensuring that teachers who are in the system for some years are properly trained to do the job they are supposed to do. The council has a lot of money at its disposal because of the charges it collects, although it has reduced the charge to teachers recently. I am working with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform to try to overcome the impediment that is the employment control framework to enable the council to employ extra staff, which it would be in a position to pay for itself.

Members asked about the fee-paying schools and we are waiting to see what they are doing with the money. We have a growing school-going population. In some cases, fee-paying schools have not been receiving capital grants for school accommodation. I want to ascertain whether they have large amounts of cash they are using for extra teachers or whether, in fact, they are paying off large mortgages for school buildings. As soon I get that information I will publish it so it will be a matter for public discussion at that point.

A question was posed regarding the possibility of lengthening the school day and the potential impact that might have. We have 730 post-primary schools. The new schools that we are building now have a population of between 800 and 1,000. That enables a full curriculum menu to be made available. In secondary schools with fewer than 300 pupils, if one disimproves the pupil-teacher ratio, one could potentially remove a subject from the menu of options. It is a truism, as the Senator knows, that primary school teachers teach children while secondary school teachers teach subjects. The impact could be quite arbitrary with the last-in, first-out system, so there is a sensitivity issue. A longer working day is a matter for negotiation with the education stakeholders and the teachers' unions and the management bodies have been extremely flexible and co-operative, from my point of view. I value that relationship and do not want to make arbitrary changes that would damage it. At the same time, we really do need to get greater productivity and that is a true for everybody, whether in the private or public sector. There is greater productivity in the public sector as we speak because the same delivery of service is occurring with far fewer staff. If memory serves me, 18,000 have left the public service yet services are being maintained.

It is just a fact of life that we are-----

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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Is it at second level that the Minister envisages this change?

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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I am more constrained at second level because of the subject impact. With primary school teachers, the impact is the same in real terms because they teach the whole spectrum of the age classes and all of the subjects. Secondary school teachers, by definition, may have a speciality in two subjects. We do not know adequately what the impact would be in some schools if we were to disimprove the pupil-teacher ratio but that is one of the options for making a saving.

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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I do not understand where the saving will be. While I understand it for second level, given the extra subjects, I would like to have clarification with regard to primary level.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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I am conscious of the time but I will come back and discuss this.

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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It needs to be clarified because it is out there at present as a kind of a throwaway statement without any substance to it.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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Those items are beyond the remit of the budget as such. We can come back to the matter at another stage.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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In fairness, we are looking for €77 million. If we have an impact analysis with regard to pushing up the student fee by another €250, we will have some idea of what the impact will be and we can assimilate it to a certain extent. With other changes, we have to drill into the consequences of the saving to see whether there is a disproportionate negative impact and whether it has a knock-on effect somewhere else. That, in effect, is what we do with many of the options. My officials will give me all the options and we will then look at it and try to counterbalance it and decide whether, given the pain it is going to cause and the distortion or impact it will have on the system, it is worth it for the amount of money we are going to save and whether we can look at something else. I hope I have dealt with all of the questions I have been asked.

Marie Moloney (Labour)
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What about the retired teachers?

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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I have dealt with the matter before. We recommend very clearly to the schools that they should not take on retired teachers for substitute purposes. I said very clearly at the INTO conference in Donegal that the person who hires the retired teacher to come in to substitute is the principal of the school. All the principals in the primary school system are in fact members of the INTO so, if they implement their own union policy, they will not be hiring retired teachers.

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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That is fairly optional. That is not the way to make a regulation.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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Was there a question?

Marie Moloney (Labour)
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What about, for example, a situation where they are taken on for State examinations?

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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I thank Senator Moloney for raising the matter. We have moved on this with the director general of the State Examinations Commission but, quite frankly, I moved too late in the day and it had made its their arrangements. I had not realised how well prepared it was in regard to the examinations system. We will be doing it earlier this year because, first and foremost, I wanted to ensure we were not going to damage the examination process. We will be discussing this with Mr. Farrell much earlier this year to see whether it can ensure the people who take on the job are, first, qualified to do it and, second, not permanently employed, so we can maximise the impact from an employment point of view for qualified teachers.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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Before I bring in Senator Power, I have one point. There is an issue of balance in this regard and one needs the experience that goes with age. We cannot just rule people out on the basis that they have been there before. I call Senator Power.

Averil Power (Fianna Fail)
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Will the Minister ensure he gets legal advice from the Attorney General as to his potential liability on this ground?

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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Yes, I will be getting legal advice in this regard. I am not even sure what the practice is as it is devolved to the City of Dublin VEC through the SUSI operation. Since it has been brought to our attention, we will inquire about that.

Fidelma Healy Eames (Fine Gael)
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Will the Minister address the issue of the pay of third level lecturers?

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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I cannot respond to the Senator at this stage but we will be looking at that in some detail. The reform of the process for third level education is at a fairly advanced stage at this point. With regard to productivity in the third level sector, quite frankly, we do not know enough about the reality on the ground from the point of view of the Higher Education Authority or the Department of Education and Skills, and we want to get a survey of that. In some jurisdictions, teachers are hired to work a working week and are deployed between the classroom, supervision in the school yard, homework and pastoral care and guidance. In our system, it tends to be teaching contact hours and the other aspects are added to this. It is an area that has to be looked at.

Marie Moloney (Labour)
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I wish to ask a further question.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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Before the Senator comes in, other members may not have had their questions answered. If so, will they indicate if they wish to follow up? I call Senator Moloney.

Marie Moloney (Labour)
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When a person applies for a third level grant, each parent is required to produce a P21 certificate from the tax office and it is at that stage they should be asked whether they are tax compliant or not. If they do not have a P21, they will have a tax clearance certificate. It is very unfair to ask a student about a parent given many students would not even know what their parents earn.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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I take account of that observation.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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I thank the Minister and his officials for briefing us so comprehensively and thank Deputies and Senators for their questions. We are moving on to No. 6, the Education and Training Boards Bill 2011. I am sure members will be relieved to hear we are not going to deal with that now because there is no progress to report yet and, therefore, there will be no presentation on the Bill at this time. However, a written update has been received and this has been circulated to all members in advance of today's meeting. I will adjourn the committee until 10 a.m. tomorrow, when we will meet representatives of the Department of Social Protection.