Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Thursday, 30 June 2022
Public Accounts Committee
2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 27 - International Co-operation
Vote 28 - Foreign Affairs
9:30 am
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome our guests. To limit the risk of spreading Covid-19, the service encourages all members, visitors and witnesses to continue to wear face masks when moving around the campus or when in close proximity to others, to be respectful of other people’s physical space and to adhere to any other public health advice. Particularly in the context of the latest wave of Covid, I ask people to adhere to that.
We are today engaging with officials from the Department of Foreign Affairs to examine the 2020 appropriation accounts for Vote 27 - International Co-operation and Vote 28 - Foreign Affairs. The Department has been advised the committee may examine expenditure relating to the Passport Office, consular activity and the leasing and ownership of buildings, and the Department has provided advance briefing material in that regard.
As mentioned earlier, the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, is a permanent witness to the committee. He is accompanied by Mr. Leonard McKeown, deputy director of audit at the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General. We are joined from the Department by Mr. John Conlan, chief operation officer and deputy Secretary General; Mr. Ruairí de Búrca, director general of the development, co-operation and Africa division of Irish Aid; Ms Siobhán Byrne, director of the Passport Service; and Ms Jane Connolly, finance director. We are also joined by Mr. Ken Cleary, principal officer in the foreign affairs Vote section of the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform.
As usual, I remind all those in attendance to ensure their mobile phones are on silent mode or switched off. Before we start, I wish to explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege, and the practice of the Houses as regards reference witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. Because they are within the precincts of Leinster House, they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the presentations they make to the committee. This means they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege and it is my duty as Cathaoirleach to ensure it is not abused. If, therefore, their statements are defamatory in respect of an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks and it is imperative they comply with that.
Members are reminded of the provisions in Standing Order 218 such that the committee shall refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government, or a Minister of the Government, or the merits of the objectives of such policies. Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise nor make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.
I invite the Comptroller and Auditor General to make his opening statement.
Mr. Seamus McCarthy:
As members are probably aware, the key areas of responsibility of the Department of Foreign Affairs include foreign policy advice and co-ordination, promotion of Ireland’s economic interests abroad, management of the Irish development aid programme and the provision of passport and consular services to citizens. The associated activities and running costs are funded under two Votes.
The 2020 appropriation account for Vote 27 - International Co-operation, records gross expenditure of nearly €548 million. This represents around 63% of Ireland’s official development and humanitarian assistance. The programmes funded under the Vote are administered by the Department’s development co-operation division. The assistance is provided mainly on a bilateral basis, in direct co-operation with Government agencies in a number of targeted programme countries, or through a wide range of non-governmental agency partners. There is also significant voted expenditure on a multilateral basis, including in support of specialised UN relief and development agencies.
Expenditure on the remainder of the Department’s areas of operation is charged to Vote 28 - Foreign Affairs. Gross expenditure under the Vote amounted to €256 million in 2020. This was distributed across five expenditure programmes, defined in terms of broad strategic objectives. About three quarters of the expenditure was in the nature of administration expenses, including staff costs and the costs to provide Ireland's network of embassies and missions abroad. Most of the non-administrative expenses comprised annual contributions to a range of international organisations and grants to support services for Irish emigrants. Receipts into the Vote comprised mainly fees related to the issuing of passports and visas and other consular services. In 2020, receipts of that nature amounted to just over €34 million, representing 89% of the overall receipts retained in the account. The 2020 fee receipts represented little more than half of the corresponding receipts in 2019. This was primarily due to a significant drop in the level of passport applications in 2020, which the Department attributes to reduced demand for international travel due to Covid-19.
Because of the way in which Vote 28 is structured, the staffing and other resources dedicated to the Passport Office are not identifiable in the account. However, the annual Estimate for the Vote, published by the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, indicates that the expenditure in relation to Passport Office activity is charged to programme A, our people.
The Estimate for Vote 28 also discloses that the number of passports issued fell very significantly, from the peak level of almost 937,000 in 2019 to just over 450,000 in 2020. Despite the very significant drop in the volume of applications completed, the timeliness of delivery also fell back, as indicated in the Department’s performance reporting. In 2020, 88% of online passport applications were processed within 20 days. This compares to 98% of online passport applications processed within the same time period in 2019. For the typically more complicated paper-based passport applications, 87% were processed within 30 working days in 2020. This was just marginally behind the 88% processed within the same time period in 2019.
Given the nature and scale of operation of the Passport Office, there may be merit in considering whether it should have its own expenditure programme within Vote 28 and for the related application fee receipts to be separately itemised in the appropriations-in-aid listing.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Mr. McCarthy. I welcome Mr. Conlan to the committee and thank him for deputising at short notice for the Secretary General, Mr. Joe Hackett, who is unavoidably absent today. As detailed in the letter of invitation, Mr. Conlan will have five minutes for his opening statement.
Mr. John Conlan:
I thank the Chairman. The Secretary General, Mr. Joe Hackett, has asked me to convey his apologies for not being able to attend today due to illness. I know he would want to have been here to answer the committee's questions in his role as the Department’s Accounting Officer.
I thank the Chairman for inviting us to the committee to discuss the 2020 appropriation accounts for the Department of Foreign Affairs - Votes 27 and 28. We have provided the committee a summary of the main areas of departmental expenditure and receipts in 2020.
The programme structure for Vote 28 corresponds with the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade strategy statement 2017-2020, which set out the Department’s work in five main areas: serving Irish citizens; actively engaging in the European Union; promoting Ireland’s values internationally; advancing Ireland’s prosperity; and strengthening Ireland’s influence.
Vote 27 is structured around a single expenditure programme, namely, Ireland’s work on development and humanitarian assistance, also known as Irish Aid.
The year under review, 2020, was a hugely challenging one for the public service. For our Department, it meant re-prioritising and repurposing a number of our programmes to address unprecedented domestic and international challenges posed by the Covid-19 pandemic, while ensuring that we did not let our focus slip from key priorities such as Northern Ireland, Brexit, our overseas development programme and winning Ireland’s seat on the UN Security Council.
Our largest citizen service, the passport service, was required to significantly adapt its service in compliance with Government public health guidance. The closure of the public offices during the different phases of the Government’s response to Covid-19, which was essential from a public health perspective, coupled with the fall in demand for passports due to the travel restrictions, required us to alter our service provision. This, combined with the pent-up demand for passports not renewed in 2020 and 2021, means we are still working through the effects of Covid-19 restrictions. I know this is an issue of particular concern to the committee and I look forward to answering members' questions hand outlining the steps the Department has taken to address these issues to ensure the efficiency the public expects from the passport service is delivered.
During this year, we have made intensive efforts to significantly improve passport application processing times. By international standards, Ireland continues to produce one of the most highly regarded products in the world. With over 90% of applications now submitted online through a very user-friendly system, turnaround times for renewals in particular are efficient and very competitive when compared internationally. So far this year, we have produced almost 700,000 passports, by far the largest number ever produced for a six-month period. However, I acknowledge that our customer service response to queries to our call centre has fallen short of the service we want to provide. This is not acceptable for our customers and I apologise. I assure the committee that we are focusing on addressing this challenge as a matter of priority, including through the temporary recruitment of call centre staff previously engaged by the HSE.
As part of the Department’s Covid-19 response, we also sought to support other Departments with their emergency response. In addition to the redeployment of staff within the Department to meet the challenges we faced, 163 staff members from the Passport Office were redeployed to the Department of Social Protection to assist with the processing of the pandemic unemployment payments, PUP, and to the HSE to assist with contact tracing.
While the demand for passports fell away during the Covid-19 pandemic, the demand for our emergency consular services increased to a level the Department had never previously experienced. To ensure an effective consular response to this global crisis, our consular directorate was restructured and substantially reinforced at an early stage. Demonstrating impressive solidarity across the Department, 150 additional colleagues, both at headquarters and overseas, received special consular training, with up to 80 officers temporarily redeployed to the reinforced Covid-19 consular response team at any one time. With this reinforced consular team, we provided assistance, support and advice to more than 9,000 Irish citizens who were stranded overseas. We directly chartered aircraft to facilitate three large-scale repatriations from Peru, India and Nigeria and worked with airlines to facilitate dedicated repatriation flights from Australia and the UK. We also worked closely with our European and other partners to ensure that Irish citizens could avail of repatriation flights arranged by other countries and, through our mission network, assisted Irish citizens to secure seats on commercial flights.
We also recognised at an early stage the potential negative impact of the pandemic on our diaspora communities. To mitigate this impact, a dedicated Covid-19 response fund for Irish communities abroad was established, funded through our emigrant support programme and focused on support for the elderly and newly vulnerable; mitigating the impact of social isolation; responding to individual cases of exceptional hardship; providing mental health supports and bereavement counselling; and moving more services online.
I will now give a brief overview of some of our other priorities in the Department during 2020. As the committee will be aware, in 2020 we entered the final phase of the process that ultimately saw Ireland take a seat on the UN Security Council. We are now in the second half of our two-year term on the Security Council. Since taking up our seat last year, we have been active across the full council agenda, bringing our principled and independent perspective to a range of key issues, in line with the core principles for our term, namely, building peace, strengthening conflict prevention and ensuring accountability. We have achieved some considerable successes despite the very challenging council dynamics and the changes in the working environment due to Covid-19.
From a development co-operation perspective, the year was defined by the Covid-19 pandemic, with the United Nations system at the heart of an integrated and urgent global response. The allocation of almost €550 million to Vote 27 enabled the Department, through the Irish Aid programme, to move quickly, with €150 million allocated over the course of the year in support of that global response. This included quadrupling Irish funding to the World Health Organization, WHO, to €16 million and investing in the COVAX facility to ensure vaccine access. This leveraged Irish Aid’s work over many years building public health system capacity in developing countries, which enabled targeted engagements with health ministries, including supply of personal protective equipment, PPE, infection control measures and establishing ICU capabilities.
Recognising that this was more than a health crisis, Irish Aid funding enabled people to cope with the wider impacts of the pandemic through enabling social protection systems, allowing children to continue their education and a focus on reducing gender-based violence. In addition, our focus on humanitarian assistance to those most vulnerable was maintained. Ireland’s approach to humanitarian action is an expression of our values, supported by our financial investment which in 2020 was just over €190 million.
Northern Ireland and managing the outcome of the UK’s exit from the European Union continued to be key priorities for the Department in 2020. In particular, the New Decade, New Approach agreement in January 2020 represented a significant shared achievement of the political parties in Northern Ireland with the Irish and British Governments. We also sustained engagement in Brussels, across the EU, in London, Washington and at home on addressing and mitigating the economic and political consequences of Brexit.
In 2020, the programme for Government moved trade promotion back to the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment. My Department continues to work collaboratively at headquarters and through the mission network to deliver on the Government’s trade and investment objectives and to promote Ireland as a great place in which to live, work, do business, invest and visit. The Global Ireland 2025 strategy offers a framework and ambition for this ongoing collaboration across government. In addition, our mission capacity overseas and our network of relationships were key to our consular and diaspora response in 2020. We have recently opened 14 new missions, without which it would have been much more difficult to provide the consular support required in response to the Covid-19 pandemic, in particular to repatriate citizens from locations such as Peru, Colombia, Chile and New Zealand.
I also want to acknowledge the dedication and motivation of the Department’s staff.
The Covid-19 crisis had and continues to have a profound impact on the Department's global operating environment, including on staffing, security and ICT functions. The crisis has underlined the importance of investment in workforce planning, building resilience, supporting well-being for staff in challenging situations a long way from home, supporting remote working and engagement via digital platforms, and investing in health and safety and security of staff who serve our citizens and promote our interests overseas.
I am joined this morning by the director general for development co-operation, Mr. Ruairí de Búrca; the director of the Passport Service, Ms Siobhán Byrne; and Ms Jane Connolly, who is the director of the finance division. We look forward to the discussion.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Mr. Conlan. The lead committee member today is Deputy Catherine Murphy, who has 15 minutes. She will be followed by Deputy O'Connor and others, each of whom will have ten minutes.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I welcome the officials. As they have just heard from the Chairman, we have very limited time for putting questions and getting responses. I would therefore appreciate succinct responses.
The most recent reply I got to a parliamentary question on the number of passports applied for up to the end of May gave a figure of 766,000. How many of those have issues and what is the backlog? I want to get a sense of it at this stage because passports have become a staple in all of our constituency offices and I think most of us would rather they were not.
Mr. John Conlan:
I think I said we have issued nearly 700,000 passports, so the vast bulk of those have been addressed. This morning we have 167,000 applications on hand. Interestingly, over 80% of those came in online. Of that 167,000, some 104,000 are with us in the Passport Service and we can process, and are processing, them. In the cases of the other 63,000, which is about 38%, we are awaiting further information from the customer to enable us to make the decision to award or not award a passport.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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To make a very small point, people are not "customers" of the Passport Office; we are citizens.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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It is not a product we are buying-----
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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-----and there needs to be a rethink about the terminology.
I have used the online service. The last time the officials were here I complimented the office on that. I wonder what we would be like had we not had that investment. I do not think that investment and the online service is the key question. On the investment, there was €20 million in the four- or five-year investment horizon from 2016.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Of that, €13 million was used. One of the issues I have noted is that even when the applications are made online, sometimes when they are checked the photograph is rejected by the person who sees it visually. That appears to be the case from some of the anecdotal evidence I have had. Is Mr. Conlan satisfied that the investment made has stood up in all aspects, especially with respect to the photographs? It appears to be one of the issues that crops up.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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All right.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I said that in particular, and I wanted to acknowledge that, but I have very limited time.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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On the photographs.
Mr. John Conlan:
There is some testing that happens automatically through the computer system that will identify whether a photograph is acceptable but then we need to go in ourselves and double-check that because the software and the development of the facial recognition part of it does not pick up every single thing the human eye can see.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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The only ones the service checks are new passports. It is not checking the online applications.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Okay.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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All right. Is Mr. Conlan satisfied that with the money that has been spent on that technology, it is as good as it can be?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Of the €20 million, some €13 million was spent. Where did the other €7 million go? Is that still for planned improvements?
Mr. John Conlan:
Okay. As part of that process, we did a procurement process for the passport operations system. We call it the passport issuance and processing system, or PIPS. We ran the tender competition. We had set aside a budget of about €7 million for that. Unfortunately, when we got down to the final evaluation of the tender, none of the bidders met the requirements of the tender so we had to cancel the tender competition. We then took some time, examined the lessons learned from what happened with the first procurement and went back and ran another tender competition. Last September we awarded a contract to service provider, a contractor, to work with us to develop a new passport issuance system.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Yes-----
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Okay. It looks to me like the Department spent €2 million upgrading the paper-based system. Is that correct?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Yes.
Mr. John Conlan:
That money was spent on three things. There was the first procurement process when we ran it, pulled all the documents together and did all the work on it. There was the second procurement process when we had a lot of engagement with a lot of contractors to come up with a final product. The biggest single part of that €2 million was spent on operationally mapping all the systems, processes and services within the Passport Service so we have a detailed blueprint of how all the systems fit together, which enables us to specify-----
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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So the Department did not spend money on a system that is------
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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-----ultimately going to become redundant.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Okay. What the officials do not want to do is make work for themselves. I am sure that is very much their objective but we might look at the number of complaints. In 2019 the service had a record number of passports issued at 956,258. Some of that was influenced by Brexit. The service had 77 complaints on 956,258 passports and six of those were escalated to the Ombudsman. In 2022 the total number of applications received, from the data I got, was 766,000, though it is more than that now, but the service had 359 complaints and 90 of those have been escalated to the Ombudsman. The Ombudsman had engagement with the Passport Office and did not instruct it do anything but made some suggestions. Apparently, the Passport Service took some of the suggestions on board. What were the suggestions and which of them did the service take on board?
Mr. John Conlan:
We would like our complaints to be much lower and that is what we are going to strive for. We are going to strive to get back to the 2019 levels. We have just been so impacted by Covid in how we could operate and run the offices. I accept people got frustrated with that and our citizens got frustrated with us. More complaints have come in. The complaints break down into two main areas. One is where we have complex citizenship decisions that require a lot of investigation and work. We often get a complaint or follow-up on that. The other one would be the timescales involved.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Yes, but there is-----
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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There is a big difference in the number of complaints.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I suspect that it is falling into delays.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Yes.
Ms Siobh?n Byrne:
The complaints are larger this year and that is corresponding with the volume of applications we are receiving this year. Demand is very high. The complaints fall into two different areas: one is around the timeline for the issuance of passports and the other is around citizenship. I will explain what a passport is, in essence. When we receive an application, it is an application for citizenship. Some of those can be quite complex and we are not always able to issue, so some of those applications would also escalate to the Ombudsman. We have been working very closely with them to streamline our process between our office and that of the Ombudsman to ensure there is a streamlined system and we receive feedback from them as well that we bring into our systems.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I ask that the Department would give us a note on this because I think it could be a lengthy reply and it would be useful for us to have a more detailed response.
I want to ask on the issue of foreign birth passports. Prior to Covid, the processing of applications for foreign birth passport applications stood at 18 months. I have a list of the six top countries, with England being the largest, which is not surprising, followed by the United States and Scotland. It is a very sizeable number. It stood at 18 months before people were redeployed. What is it now?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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What is the delay now? It was 18 months before.
Mr. John Conlan:
It is two years now. Many of the staff we have taken on have longer contracts. We have not gone for the 26-week contracts but for mostly 48-week contracts. The plan is that once we get over the peak of the passport application process and as that comes down, we will start moving more of our staff into FBRs.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I am sure Mr. Conlan would say that a two-year delay in getting a passport processed is horrendous.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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The Department might give us a note in regard to what timeline it is working towards to get that down to an acceptable length of time.
I want to ask about the leasing of embassies and diplomatic relations. This is an issue that comes up each time the Department is with the committee. The Department has 134 leased properties and, between 2017 and 2020, there was an €80 million increase in the cost. How does the Department account for that very sizeable increase? On another point that comes up each time, how does the Department make the decision between purchasing a property and leasing a property in terms of value for money?
Mr. John Conlan:
As an accountant, I always like to look at how we are getting the best value out of this. It is not always a straightforward decision and there are many factors to take into account. Often, when we go into a new embassy or a new location, we build up the information and the knowledge that we need about the marketplace to enable us to decide whether to purchase or buy. Very briefly, we look at a number of factors. I would always look at the payback period. If we want to get payback, when we compare rent versus purchase, it may be less than 20 years.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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The €80 million is a sizeable increase. Is that to do with additional embassies or an increase in the cost of leasing? What is the reason for that?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I ask that the Department again gives us a detailed note so we will see in tabular form what we are paying and what the length of the lease is for each of them, and whether consideration is being given to purchasing where the Department has seen a rationale for doing that.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Where are we in regard to the embassy in Tokyo?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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What is the timeline?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Is the Department looking to build any further embassies at the moment?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Is there a budget for that?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Given we are moving to an online or a mostly online system, the Department might also give us a note on workforce planning because that will obviously have a bearing on dealing with the current backlog. I am sure it is very frustrating for the Department but all of us have found it an incredible experience trying to deal with people who are getting on to the Department. They are losing money because they have made commitments, using the Department's timelines, to presume they were going to have a passport and it then does not arrive. It is highly problematic from that point of view.
Mr. John Conlan:
We have done extensive workforce planning, especially in the Passport Service. Between ourselves and the Public Appointments Service, we have run four temporary clerical officer competitions in the last six months. At the moment, we have an attrition rate between job offers and people coming in of at least 30% of people not taking us. We have done a lot of work on it and I will give the committee a note on that. We have a detailed plan in place.
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the officials from the Department of Foreign Affairs and the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. At the outset, I acknowledge that the Department of Foreign Affairs provides huge service to the State and, generally, it has been very positive throughout Brexit and Ireland securing a position on the UN Security Council. Off my own bat, I want to say the work that has been undertaken within the Department is very impressive and that should be acknowledged.
Obviously, 2020 was an interesting year with Covid and a few other major concerns the Department was dealing with. I want to get a better insight around the appointment process for special envoys. Obviously, we had a lot of controversy about that, particularly during 2021. How regularly would special envoys be accredited and appointed by the Department?
Mr. John Conlan:
We had a number of special envoys during 2020 in regard to the UN Security Council campaign. We did a report on this last year and we brought a new procedure into place. Going forward, the Department will look at the role that is required, the competencies and the job specifications required. We will then go to the Government with a proposal for a role of special envoy. We will then run a public competition, have an assessment and then go back to the Government at the end for the approval to appoint.
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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We have to analyse the past in this committee and ask questions about it, rather than focusing on the future. That is welcome. In the past, when it came to the recommendation process for special envoys, generally speaking, would the Minister be in charge of designing the list and coming up with the candidates, or would it be the Department that would come up with a recommended list of candidates? Will Mr. Conlan give us an insight into that process? How does the Department get to a point where that list of potential candidates to fill a role or vacancy may occur?
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Not the UN, but generally.
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Cultural ambassadors and so on are appointed by the Department of Foreign Affairs. Is that correct?
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Is it Tourism Ireland that has charge of that?
Mr. John Conlan:
We only appoint special envoys. There is a process there now. At the time, we would look at what the requirements for the role were. If there was a role in a particular area that required multilateral experience, that would be a criterion of the role, for example, in the food area, we would need someone from the food sector, and we would then look at who the candidates are.
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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I will stop Mr. Conlan there. That is very interesting. I do not for one moment question the skills and expertise that we may have in the political sphere and how they can benefit, aid and assist the work the Department does. I am thinking in particular of a former Minister for Foreign Affairs, and I know Eamon Gilmore has done plenty of work with the Department post his life in electoral politics.
It muddied the waters a little last year when a person had sought to have a role created and the Government approached the Department of Foreign Affairs. Was it the norm previous to then for that to have happened?
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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It does not happen that often. There is not much depth required in it.
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, but I want to look at the past for a moment. Mr. Conlan must bear with me for a moment. This is our job. As I asked, did the Government, in the person of the Minister for Foreign Affairs, present Mr. Conlan with a list of potential positions it would like to have created? Was that the process, or did the Department go to the Minister and say it would be important for the Government to appoint envoys in this area? How did that occur?
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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That is interesting. There could be someone in-house.
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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It is interesting that Mr. Conlan mentioned "in-house". In terms of the appointment of ambassadors, for example, are they required to have the language of the country to which they are posted?
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Would all of them have fluency in the languages of the countries to which they have been posted?
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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That is a "No". Does Mr. Conlan think that should be a basic requirement to be an ambassador?
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Something I found interesting is that when it came to the current reshuffle, we saw people shifting from positions in the Civil Service into ambassadorial roles. Surely, when Mr. Conlan defines "in-house" in terms of the Department of Foreign Affairs, that is the point he is making. Is that common?
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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It is a different system. If a third secretary goes into the Department of Foreign Affairs, he or she rises through the ranks. As Mr. Conlan identified, it is very specific and specialist work. Does he think it is appropriate that we are pulling people from different Departments that have nothing to do with ambassadorial work?
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Would the language not be one of them?
Mr. John Conlan:
Yes, language is a requirement. It is something that we do look at. We look at the suitability for the role and whether it is a bilateral or multilateral role, the type of economic relationship and if it is a more value-based organisation. We look at a number of different factors in making recommendations on ambassadors.
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Would it be preferred for the Department to have in-house recommendations for ambassadorial appointments?
Mr. John Conlan:
Colleagues in the Department of Foreign Affairs come up through experience, so we could have ambassadors at first secretary - assistant principal, counsellor - principal officer, and assistant secretary. They have built up experience but some of them also have experience of working in other areas and organisations.
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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This is the point that strikes me. If someone is Secretary General of a Department outside of the Department of Foreign Affairs, does he or she go to the Secretary General of the Department of Foreign Affairs and say he or she would like to be an ambassador when his or her term is up? How does it happen?
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Conlan is the chief operating officer in the Department of Foreign Affairs.
Mr. John Conlan:
Yes, I have been for the past eight months. The process for ambassadorial appointments is that most people work in the Department of Foreign Affairs and the Secretary General under the Civil Service Management Act is responsible for the appointment and assigning of the staff. We bring ambassadorial appointments to the Government. The Secretary General would discuss with the Minister the range of ambassadorial appointments and the Minister would then bring a recommendation to the Government, and it would then-----
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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It is clouded in mystery. It does not make an awful lot of sense to me how somebody lands himself or herself into an ambassadorial role as Secretary General. I do not understand. Would the Secretary General not look at career diplomats working within the Department before plucking a Secretary General from a different Department and putting him or her into an ambassadorial role?
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Does the salary stay the same?
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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They hold their salary. Is the salary of a Secretary General not significantly higher than an ambassador's salary?
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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That is interesting and very informative. I am not trying to undermine the work Mr. Conlan is doing. It may sound like that, but that is not my intention. It is good to get that type of information.
Let us say that we had a very skilled former Cabinet Minister who served in government, which is pretty much the political and democratic equivalent to being a Secretary General, would that person have a role in being appointed as an ambassador?
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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They need to be.
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Does Mr. Conlan think that is something that could change in the future?
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Other countries have an entirely different system.
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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It is a bit ironic because there are some esteemed political representatives who, while I might not agree with their political philosophy, for example, John Bruton and others, have gone on to serve the State in a fantastic capacity in international organisations. However, Mr. Conlan says the person needs to be a civil servant.
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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I have one more question to ask in my final minute. I recently travelled to Belfast to see Cork playing against Antrim. On my way home, I said I would drop out to see the facility where passports are printed. That was a Sunday. What struck me is that it was closed that day. At the height of the demand for passports, did Ms Byrne ever consider that passport offices should effectively operate seven days a week? It does not have to be 24-7, but operating on a seven-days per week capacity? Could she please address that point? To be clear, I mean that as a temporary, emergency measure.
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Okay.
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Does Ms Byrne think there would have been merit in opening the public offices as a temporary emergency measure for those three or four months when the pressure came on?
Ms Siobh?n Byrne:
The public offices are there for people who require passports for imminent travel. The majority of our applications are actually received through our online channel, with some received through our paper channel. We prioritise our operations where the volume of the applications is. That is the work we prioritise but staff are in the offices outside of the public opening hours.
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Okay.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I think Mr Conlan gave a figure earlier of 167,000 applications on hand and 87% of those were online. In terms of the backlog, how many of those applicants have been waiting for more than three months?
Ms Siobh?n Byrne:
If applications are straightforward, they are processed very quickly. Somebody can apply for a passport but we may have to go back to the applicant for additional documentation, which can add time to the processing. Where somebody has a complex application, he or she may need some additional time to gather documents together. Somebody may apply for a passport but it can sometimes take a little bit longer to process, if the customer has to gather the information-----
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Would it be over three months?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Okay, some are over three months.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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What is the current number of staff in the Passport Office, as of today?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Some 920 staff were promised by January of this year and the same number was promised again in March. Did Mr. Conlan say that 30% of those who were offered jobs did not take them up?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Was there a particular reason for that?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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What is the starting salary?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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As other Deputies have said, there has been utter stress and panic for people for months, to the extent that Deputies' constituency offices are inundated. People are in tears on the phone. People ring the Passport Office hundreds of times, over and over, trying to get through to it and there is not a peep.
The uploading of photographs was mentioned. I came across several issues with constituents who had applied for a passport. For example, a constituent uploaded the photograph online and was given a target date. The target date had passed and my constituent was starting to get a bit panicky. She checked and saw a message to say the photograph had not uploaded. She uploaded it again but got no confirmation at all. She phoned the Passport Office. Obviously, she would still be ringing them waiting for an answer. My constituent uploaded it three times to be then told she had exceeded the security attempt. Ironically, she was told to contact the Passport Office. She contacted my office. When we eventually got through, we were told by somebody there is a problem sometimes if photographs are uploaded with a phone and it is better to do it on the laptop. Why, in the name of God, are people not told that rather than having them checking repeatedly? That is only one example of simple things that could be rectified. There are simple changes that could reduce the stress levels of people that have been caused by the Passport Office.
Another one, which is a bone of contention, is the target date. When the Passport Service is seeking further information, sometimes it is after the target date that contact is made with the person to seek further information. They scurry around and get that further information only to be told they are to the back of the queue. Where does that make sense? Why was that system let go unchecked? Why is it still operational as of this week that people, despite the fact they were only contacted after their target date, submit the further information to be told they are at the back of the queue? Many people have missed their chance of a holiday. They have had two years of a pandemic. Many people have set holidays. If they work in certain areas, they are given two weeks in July or two weeks in June and they have no option to change their holidays. Many families have been looking forward to their first holiday in possibly three years only to be told the passport has not arrived in time, so they miss their holiday and have no other option but to stay at home for their two weeks and think maybe next year they might get away or, as in multiple cases, a single family member does not get his or her passport on time when other members have and that person has to stay at home. It beggars belief. I am not being rude, but it is utter incompetence having a system whereby a target date is given, the person is not contacted, and when he or she is contacted for further information, that person goes to the back of the queue.
There is another issue about watermarks. There was another constituent who had submitted the birth certificate three times to be accused wrongly of sending in copies. My office spoke to someone who issues civil legal documentation and was told there was a problem in the Passport Office reading watermarks. Is that true? Has it been corrected?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Hold on, it goes back for another 15 days. In the meantime, because it is past an applicant's target date, his or her flight could be in 11 days. The applicant has submitted the information and is told he or she will not get it until the 10th. The person says her family holiday is booked on the 6th and is told she must wait another fortnight. Why is there no emphasis put on those who submit - Mr. Conlan said early the bulk of the backlog is waiting for further information - given the fact they have applied for their passport in ample time? They have applied in sufficient time, for example, two months. I could cite a list of cases here only it would take up my ten minutes. They are disgraceful. Who decided they would not process the further information as soon as possible or as soon as they got it to make sure the person got his or her passport in time, having applied three months earlier? Who made that decision to put it back by another 15 days? Who is responsible for making that decision and having people's stress levels through the roof in the peak summer season?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Conlan stated that 87% were done online. We will accept the online system of renewals is fairly good. There is a smaller percentage who have been waiting up to three months, and some more than three months, to be processed. By the way, one constituent has been waiting since December. When the passport service decides its way of correcting people is to put them to the back of the line and that, instead of saying it will get the passport out to them in three working days if the information they have submitted is accurate, it tells them it will be another fortnight before the service is obliged to post out the passport on the 15th day, it could mean it is the 18th or the 20th day before the applicant gets it.
Mr. John Conlan:
It is a marriage of processing. We are trying to process as quickly as possible. There is a slight difficulty. The photograph might be more straightforward but if it is a particular form or document that has to be reviewed, it just takes that wee bit longer. We are trying to improve it. We are putting more staff into that whole area but it is just trying to manage the overall demands that exist.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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When will the Passport Service have the 920 staff?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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How will the Passport Service correct that photograph issue? I did not get a response about the watermarks.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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It was not a selfie. It was uploading a photograph.
Ms Siobh?n Byrne:
It is impossible to submit an application form without a photograph. This person may have submitted a photograph but there may have been an issue with the photograph. As we mentioned, we validate the photographs on the way in but there are limits to what a system can do. There are questions asked of the citizen when he or she is applying, such as whether the applicant has a neutral expression on his or her face, and if it is a plain background. These are limitations we know exist within the photograph system but it always requires human adjudication. There will never be a system to replace a human in assessing a photograph.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I accept that, but why in the name of goodness would the Passport Service not inform applicants, for instance, at the bottom of the form, that they should be aware there can be an issue with uploading photographs from a phone and to upload it on a laptop? Why would they not do so instead of causing a great deal of stress for people? The Passport Service is having people miss their travel date because its office cannot be bothered to put on paper on paper to notify people what it has recognised as a problem.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Perhaps Ms Byrne would like to respond to that briefly.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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There are problems with 50% and the Passport Service still does not notify people of that issue.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Why does the Passport Service not tell them that? That is the point. Why does it wait until eight weeks after they have applied to contact them and after a target date to state there is a problem with the applicant's photograph? They then upload the photograph again not knowing the problem is because of the phone. Why not tell them? When the service is so inefficient at this stage, why not give people that advice in advance to prevent causing them even further stress or missing their family holiday?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Could something be done about information for the public on that, even on the website? It is a valid point. On the question of people going back 15 days in the queue-----
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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It is ridiculous.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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-----can that not be rectified? It is an issue that consistently comes up. If they are contacted just before or after the target date, as the Deputy asks, why should their application have to go back 15 days or go back around and start again?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Eight weeks, as I mentioned, in a case the other day.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I ask Mr. Conlan to do so, because it really is a problem.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I suggest that Mr. Conlan does not leave it until the peak summer season is over to look at it and that he looks at it as a matter of urgency.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Something on photos could be put on the website. I know sitting against a wall with a mobile phone worked for me.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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About time.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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I know the issue of passports is very important and that people have covered it. I want to deal with overseas funding. Our funding for overseas development from 2015 to 2020 went from €475 million to €548 million. I ask about checks and balances in place for that enormous funding. Priority emergency humanitarian assistance was €96 million in 2020. What are the checks and balances on the allocation of that funding? What is the process for deciding how to allocate the funding? It is a large amount of money.
Mr. John Conlan:
It is. We are very conscious it is taxpayers' money and so we have to have the most robust and strong governance methods over it. I might ask Mr. de Búrca, head of Irish Aid, to come in on that.
Mr. Ruair? de B?rca:
The allocation is obviously given by the Government in the budget every autumn. An interdepartmental process takes place to discuss allocation. As the Comptroller and Auditor General said, our Department is responsible for about 60% to 65% of overseas development aid, ODA, in any given year. There is an interdepartmental committee which meets three to four times a year. The final meeting every year is to discuss and agree indicative allocations across our Vote in a context where we look at what other Departments are also giving for ODA.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Regarding that allocation and getting value for money, I have seen projects in a number of countries and there are significant differences. For instance, over 4,000 children were in schools and being provided with a meal every day. I saw a comparable project in the same area where a small number of children were being looked after for the same cost. What mechanism do we have to adjudicate on whether we are getting value for money? Is it delivering what we targeted?
Mr. Ruair? de B?rca:
Every single proposal we bring forward for funding within the general rubrics which we agree interdepartmentally is subject to a series of forms of assessment, scrutiny, evaluation and reporting. Depending on the type of project or programme that we fund and its value and scale, we have slightly different processes, which are subject to a series of checks and balances. For example, if it is a country in which we have an embassy, the embassy has a strategy which is worked out over a period of about six to nine months looking at the government of that country's poverty-reduction strategy. It identifies partners. Sometimes we have been working with them for a while. Sometimes we have worked with other partners as well in a consortium where we share the risk and share the analysis. Part of that is looking at the organisational capacity of the delivery agent to do the work that we want it to do. We do value for money analysis in advance and then we do follow up monitoring and evaluations, often mid-term, to make sure that it is what it is and we make adjustments as necessary.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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We have not actually seen any results. For instance, if Irish Aid decided to provide €10 million in funding for a particular country or area, we do not see how that money was used in real terms or what the end of that project was. Whether it was trying to assist with a food or an educational programme, none of that information is fed back to us. How is the selection of the NGO assessed? Are there regular ongoing communications and feedback about how the money was used by the NGO?
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Yes, it was.
Mr. Ruair? de B?rca:
I would hope that I hope that a similar visit can be organised once the public health conditions allow. It would be an opportunity for the members of this particular Committee of Public Accounts to go out and see and bear witness to that work. It is often in the company of officials from the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General.
We produce an annual report for the entire aid programme every year. All the elements we fund are subject to annual reports which are available
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Can that annual report be made available to us because I am not sure if we have received that?
Mr. Ruair? de B?rca:
Absolutely, we will send it on.
The largest suite of NGOs we fund are Irish NGOs - Trócaire, Concern, GOAL and others. With those we have a very particular form of relationship. We have a five-year funding relationship which gives them predictable funding based on agreed delivery targets. We track those targets. We work with them and we meet various times over the course of each year. We check all annual reporting, including their accounts. We go and visit and check. We track all of that. All the funding we provide is checked by the OECD against a series of internationally agreed criteria for development aid. If it does not meet those criteria, it does not count as development aid. Periodically - the last time this was done was in 2020 - the OECD comes and does a review of Irish Aid. The last time it did that in 2020 it said that we were an exemplary donor and that in terms of humanitarian assistance, we were an example that other donors could follow. It had particular praise for how we engage with civil society and for the unrestricted funding that Irish Aid gives to multilateral organisations.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Have any specific difficulties arisen with projects in the last five years? Were they identified when the reviews were carried out? A number of years ago we had a problem with a particular organisation. On any occasion in the past five years has Irish Aid had concerns about projects where Irish funding was provided?
Mr. Ruair? de B?rca:
We have a standard approach to grant management, which is an assessment tool that we use to look at organisations. We look at things like governance as part of that. There are times when an organisation might come to us looking for funding and we might refuse on the basis of governance. The last time we appeared before this committee there was a high-profile organisation which we discussed. We declined it for funding on the basis of our governance checks. From time to time issues arise. We have a fraud register. It is a relatively small amount of money. Last year, I think just shy of €80,000 was detected in fraud and most of that was returned to us. Sometimes that is theft by an employee or something like that. While one should never be complacent, that accompaniment we do along the way to make sure-----
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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It is a huge amount of money.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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The international proposal was that we would provide 0.7% of gross national income on development aid. I believe we are at 0.3%.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Do we need to do more work on that issue? Mr. de Búrca seems to be happy with the projects being delivered and getting value. What is the Department's approach to try to get additional funding for projects where it sees major progress being made?
Mr. Ruair? de B?rca:
The Government is committed to increasing the amount of money for ODA as a whole in the programme for Government. That is obviously a matter on which the Government will decide on budget day in the autumn.
The total allocation for ODA in 2014 was nearly €629 million. Last year on budget day it was more than €1 billion. There has been an approximately 66% increase in the overall cash allocation to ODA over the last eight years but because of dynamic economic growth, that has not delivered the steps up in percentage GNI towards that target one would anticipate. What I manage every year is cash and we have over the past six or seven years invested in our systems and people to make sure we can manage that increase in cash. We do not manage all of that €1 billion; we are just at over €600 million of it this year. However, we have a quality control function for the whole ODA across Government and we progress those systems.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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That is being reviewed constantly, I imagine.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Is Mr. de Búrca satisfied we have sufficient structures in place?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome our guests. We send our best wishes to the Secretary General and hope he makes a full recovery. Will Mr. Conlon give an update as to when the Department expects to make a recommendation to Government for a new special envoy to the UN for freedom of opinion and expression?
Mr. John Conlon:
I do not think there is any process in place at the moment for that. If we go for a new special envoy, we will follow the process whereby at the start we apply to Government for a decision to set up the role, then run a process to select someone and go back to Government to get it approved.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I heard Mr. Conlon outlining the new process earlier. This time last year the Department told us this was an incredibly important position for Ireland and our international reputation. Is Mr. Conlon saying there are no current plans to make a recommendation?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Thanks for that. I will talk about services, particularly passport services, but I believe the consular services offered by the Department of Foreign Affairs are among the best that any Department provides. I have had to engage with them on various occasions, always in a panic on behalf of somebody and have never had a complaint about them.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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On passports, I agree with what others have said. When the online passport works, it works incredibly well. I renewed my passport online when I realised it was almost two years out of date. Probably because I am aware of it from dealing with so many people, it was done within a couple of days. When it does not work, it can cause huge difficulties. Ms Byrne mentioned the public offices are there essentially for imminent travel. How does one enter the public offices or make an appointment to go into them?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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What is Mr Conlon's definition of "imminent travel"?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Before Ms Byrne comes in, the difficulty is you are on the website, have put in the details for an appointment and the next appointment you can get for a four-day turnaround service is 14 July. I would like clarification if weekends are included in that four-day turnaround. If they are, you would receive the passport on 18 July. That is not imminent. If you want to make an appointment for a same-day turnaround service, which is what most people will want, there is nothing on this website. There is an issue with this because if you go on to this at 3 a.m. - and you will have a fairly short window - there is a good chance you will get a specific time on a given day but no options. Does Mr. Conlon accept there is a problem in people being able to access imminent travel passports when they are required?
Ms Siobh?n Byrne:
Demand for appointments is extremely high at the moment. We are in the season of families going on holidays. That corresponds with the high demand for passports we are seeing this year because of the pent-up demand from 2020 and 2021. We have a process whereby we look at the appointments that are made on the system. We only facilitate appointments for renewal applications because first-time applications are complex and take much longer to process. We assess the appointments on a regular basis, daily or twice daily, to see if everybody who has an appointment qualifies to have one or if they already have another application in the system that is progressing well, so a passport may be already issued. We continually release those appointments back out to customers to rebook. That is why when you go into the system it might say there are no appointments but you could go in in an hour's time and appointments could be available on certain days. The demand is high. There is a limited number of applications we can receive through the public counter because they are resource-intensive. It is a paper process. It is not like the online process and is intensive to manage. It is very much a hands-on process.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I will give my experience from dealing with quite a number of people. I have never seen earlier appointments for a four-day turnaround than when somebody first goes on. The date will generally move a day every day and is usually in the timeframe we are taking about, which is in two weeks' time. According to everything we have heard, if it is a renewal application, you are wasting your time setting that date because the witnesses have committed that it will be received in that timeframe anyway. The issue might be in terms of a new passport if somebody has a young child or whatever the case may be that needs to travel abroad. Unless they have a medical emergency, there is no service for them. Is that correct?
Ms Siobh?n Byrne:
Regarding appointments at the public counter, to facilitate as many people as we can, we process renewal applications because first-timers are complex to process. The majority of people who come into the public counter are like the Deputy, who looked at his passport, realised it was out of date, applied online and got his passport when he was travelling. That is the majority of people at the public counter and that is the purpose of it. First-time applicants are a little bit different. They know they do not have a passport so we advise them to apply in time before they book travel and try to have it before they book a flight.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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We get all that. Does Ms Byrne accept there is a difficulty in cases where people need to make on-the-day appointments? We all accept the online system, when it works, is much better than what was in place but I remember that, as a lad in my 20s, two days before I was supposed to fly out I realised my passport was out of date. I was able to walk into the building just up the road and walk out the same day with my passport, once I had all the necessary documentation. That was a good system and there is nothing close to that in place now. Is there any intention to improve the appointments service for those who need to get passports, for whatever reasons, quicker than can be done through the online service?
Ms Siobh?n Byrne:
With the additional recruitment we have had in recent weeks, we are in the process of training staff to operate on our public counters and process those applications, with the aim of making more appointments available to the customers. I accept demand for appointments is extremely high. We have to measure carefully how many applications we are capable of processing on the day or within four days. It is a highly labour-intensive process for those applications.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Unfortunately, I have to take that as a "No". I have limited time and want to deal with the issue that has arisen, particularly in my office.
I qualify everything I am saying by saying people should not have to visit or contact their politicians in order to get passports, but many people feel they must because of the experiences we have heard. People understand that politicians can ring and send emails to the Passport Office but what they might not know is that there is a limit to the number of representations we can make per week. I think it is 20 per week. If one of us deals with a family of seven, that takes seven from those 20. Because of my location and because I am a representative of an all-Ireland party, a huge number of the representations I have to make are actually on behalf of constituents of MLAs and MPs in the North because they do not have access to the same services to which I have access. Will the Department consider reviewing that to allow elected representatives of Irish citizens north of the Border to make representations where needed?
For as long as I can remember, there has been huge demand for a passport office in the North that would allow public access. Are there any plans afoot to open a passport office in the North of our country?
Mr. John Conlan:
We introduced the Oireachtas phone line late last year in response to queries from Deputies. It was always going to be a temporary measure. We are going to move to a new portal which will be much more user-friendly and will get the information to us more quickly, meaning we will be able to respond more quickly. We can certainly look at how we can roll that out maybe a bit wider and see what we can do with that.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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May I interject? There must be and must continue to be a mechanism whereby we can talk to humans. Most of the stuff can be dealt with online, but most of the time when we ring on behalf of people it is because they cannot get the full information and because the only way it can be found is by talking to a person. I appeal that, whatever happens, there is a system whereby people can make urgent inquiries if necessary.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The percentage should be similar to that for the South.
Mr. John Conlan:
Yes. Also, a passport office requires heavy overheads in respect of investment, security, the number of staff and training, so it does not always make sense to open a new office. Where we can do what we do centrally, we would have to look at opening a new office very closely to see if it would make sense to do so.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Has the Department been examining it?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I ask the Department to look into it in greater detail because it is hugely important.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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On the question about the MLAs, or even the MPs because there is a smaller number of them so it would be more manageable, if MPs in the North could have that system-----
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I am referring to the phone-in system. Maybe elected representatives in the North could be allowed to deal with even ten or 20 applications to the Passport Office per week. Could that be done? The number of MPs is smaller than the number of MLAs. There are only 18 MPs in the North.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I know that, but we are in a crisis now with this. Mr. Conlan has heard what Deputy Carthy said. He lives in Ulster. He is an Ulster Deputy and his constituency office is servicing the nine counties of Ulster. There is a problem there. What I am asking Mr. Conlan is whether we can put in place a system or do something else to open up such a temporary service to the 18 MPs in the North. I reiterate the point Deputy Carthy made about talking to humans. My secretary normally makes these representations. It works fairly well, by the way, and I thank the staff who man the other end of that phone line. By and large, the feedback is very good. There are representations every day. Could we continue with humans being available where there are problems? Could the Department also come back to us on the MPs?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Surely, in this day and age, we can do that. The applicants are Irish citizens.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I understand that.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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A couple of new staff could come in, maybe, and the Department could train them up.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The Department could employ some new staff and put them in a northern office.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I welcome the witnesses to the Committee of Public Accounts. I concur with what Deputy Carthy said about the consular service. In the short time since I was elected, I have dealt with the Department of Foreign Affairs on some very sad occasions on behalf of families. Everybody, from the Minister's adviser, Laura McGonigle, to the parliamentary assistant to the Minister of State, Deputy Brophy, Rob Lahiff, has played his or her part. It has usually been on Saturdays or Sundays and in most distressing situations and always with a satisfactory outcome. I thank all involved for that.
Unfortunately, however, the experience of passport applications, as the witnesses have heard, and for many constituents of mine, has been dreadful. I have had constituents in tears over holidays they have lost and children being promised things that did not come to pass. Granted, there are worse things happening in the world, but that is not easy to explain when people have done everything they were expected to do.
I have questions about the allocation of staff. How many staff does the Department have allocated to online passport applications? Out of the 846 staff, what is the breakdown of the allocation?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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So 70% to 80% of passports are applied for online.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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That is taking only a little over half the staff. Then there are another 300-odd staff who deal with paper applications.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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The difference is that it takes five days. The witnesses say that, within five days of an application being received, the documents are uploaded. Is that correct?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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The documentation for an application is uploaded within five days.
Ms Siobh?n Byrne:
That depends on the type of application. If it is a renewal for a child, in respect of which it is just a consent form we require, the documentation is uploaded within five days. If it is a first-time application, because that is a longer process, a lot more documentation comes in. Those applications are streamlined on the way in so that we can meet our target time for renewals and then, separately, our target time for first-time applications.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Will Ms Byrne explain what she means when she says "streamlined"?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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No. Sorry. I am not talking about online applications. I want to know about the streamlining of first-time applications in paper form.
Ms Siobh?n Byrne:
For paper applications there is no difference in the system. Regardless of whether the applicant is an adult renewing his or her passport or the most complex first-time applicant, the process is exactly the same. It is an old process. It was developed in 2004 and is on the old technology, so it is resource-intensive and very much paper-orientated. Ideally, if we were not in the demand we are in at the moment, the documentation would be scanned in, probably in the first four weeks, and then the application processed in the following four weeks, so there is an eight-week turnaround. It is taking a little longer at the moment.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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In that timeframe, in which of those four weeks are issues flagged? If there is an issue with the application - if the photo or the consent form is wrong - when is it flagged? At what stage?
Ms Siobh?n Byrne:
The adjudication on any application is performed once all the documentation is scanned onto the system, the assessments of the documentation have been made, witnesses have been contacted and various system checks have taken place. At that point the decision is made as to whether the passport can issue and-----
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Are we into the second four weeks then? This is where I am just trying to be helpful. It is our experience that there should be a more streamlined process when the documents are uploaded. If the documentation were checked at that stage, it would without a shadow of a doubt quicken the process and hasten any alert to the applicant for further information. Ultimately, it can be nearly eight weeks before an issue is identified. At that stage, as Mr. Conlan said, they face a 15-day queue or are back to the start.
Does the Passport Office still have to contact the individual garda who signs the consent form or the witness form?
Ms Siobh?n Byrne:
We have never had a process whereby we have to contact the individual garda. There is a streamlined process that has been in place for many years with An Garda Síochána whereby when a garda signs an application form for a passport, he or she records it in a logbook. We ring that particular station and confirm that the entry is in the logbook. We do not have-----
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Were there problems with that?
Ms Siobh?n Byrne:
There were difficulties we have worked with An Garda Síochána to resolve. Now there are additional processes in place, whereby we provide a list daily to An Garda Síochána where we have difficulty contacting the station or where the station has difficulty establishing that it is reported in the logbook.
They are responding to us on these queries. This allows us to progress the application without having to go back to the applicant to provide a replacement consent form for a child or an identity form for a first-time adult applicant.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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It took a long time to identify all of these issues and change them. We were weeks into backlogs. I have been dealing with passports since November. My office has been dealing with backlogs daily since last November. Until we got the helpline it was the most arduous process we had to go through given the detail involved and that there is no system by which to correlate the applicant with the application number. It is very difficult for everybody to have to go back and forth for information, not just from our work perspective but for those on whose behalf we are working. Why did it take so long? I find it very difficult to comprehend. We now have an online system. We had the depths of Covid. The Department had loads of time to perfect a system. Has the updating since 2016 and everything the witnesses have said been a missed opportunity? Brexit was flagged as posing a significant issue with overseas applicants. Why did we make so little progress between 2016 and 2021? It is only now the Department is talking about updating a system that is outdated? We had a lapse of two years when people did not apply. We could have used that time.
Mr. John Conlan:
The online system has been transformative. We have issues with it and we are trying to address them. We have gone from ten years ago when everything was paper to the process now when people are able to apply online. A total of 60% of adult renewals get their passports in two or three days. The rest get it in ten days. There is-----
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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No disrespect meant but we have not moved an inch. How many passports were issued annually ten years ago?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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We are no further ahead if the online process is working as efficiently as it is. I appreciate there are issues but if 70% of the applications are dealt with successfully and only 30% have problems, why are we not dealing with the 30% more efficiently? I do not get it. We have doubled the staff and the funding. The paper system seems to be worse and slower than ever. Do the witnesses understand what I am saying? Ten years ago the office was dealing with half the number of applications. Ten years on we have another 300,000 applications but they are being dealt with online, which was not done ten years ago in the same way. Why are we falling down? Has the office identified the issues?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I appreciate that.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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What I am trying to say, and I do not mean to interrupt Mr. Conlan, is that it is about time. Ten years ago the office did not have the online system, did it?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Ten years ago if 700,000 passports were issued, they were paper applications.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Today, more than 500,000 of the applications are online. The office is dealing with fewer paper applications now than it was ten years ago. Where is the problem? What is the problem? The office is dealing with fewer paper applications altogether. Does Mr. Conlan understand me?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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How many staff did the office have ten years ago?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Mr. Conlan keeps knocking himself. We now have 846 staff. There is a huge issue from the point of view of value from money. That is my problem. We have an online system on which the Department has spent €13 million and it deals with 60% of the passports. The office has double the number of staff it had ten years ago to deal with half the amount of paper applications and we cannot get them out. Am I correct? Is there something wrong with what I am saying?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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The office has double the staff.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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How much did it cost to run the Passport Office ten years ago?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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If Mr. Conlan does a price comparison for me between what it cost to process paper applications ten years ago and the cost today with 846 staff, will he send it in for the benefit of the committee? There is something radically wrong with the system. It has caused heartache and hardship, not only for the people who have missed their flights, had to cancel their holidays and lost huge amounts of money but for my staff in particular, who have the patience of Job. They have had to put in time with the Passport Service staff, whom I commend on their patience with us also. It is an unnecessary problem that should never have arisen. I do not believe we are getting to grips with it.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I would appreciate it.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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What is the expected number of passports to be issued this year?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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It has about double.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The number of staff has more than doubled.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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With more than half of the applications being processed online.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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This tells us that the online system is not speeding it up. If, as the Deputy said, they were all being done by paper ten years ago and 500 million passports were issued by 400 staff, there are now 846 staff issuing roughly double the number this year.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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There were red flags.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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It would appear that there is something wrong.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I would not like to be making that statement to anyone who has come through my office looking for their passports. It is not more efficient.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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One of the biggest problems has been communication. I could not believe that people came to my office last week, having tried to apply online, but being unable to upload the photograph went to the post office instead. I am a big advocate of the post office simply because it keeps rural Ireland alive. Unfortunately we are in a position where we have to discourage people from going through the post office network. It just goes to show the communication is not there. This lady had no idea that the priority service no longer exists and has been renamed. She was not aware that Passport Express no longer exists. I was not aware that it had been de-named. It was preposterous to de-name it. The idea should have been to put the system in place whereby Passport Express would continue to exist. Communication with the public is not working. This is just an observation.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I have some questions. Time is limited, so I will try to keep them concise and I ask the witnesses to try to do the same with their answers. Regarding the Garda verification of passports, I had a situation where a constituent had a passport application witnessed at the Garda station in Edenderry, which is a town of approximately 11,000 people. The person works in Dublin, as many people living in Edenderry do. Dublin is 40 or 45 miles away. People are away all day and it could be 7 o'clock or 8 o'clock before they get home in the evening. The garda in the station in Edenderry witnessed the application and did the whole process. A situation then arose where the Passport Office could not contact the Garda station in Edenderry because it was not a 24-hour station. I then posted a message on my Facebook page advising people to go to either Tullamore or Portlaoise in Laois-Offaly because those are 24-hour stations.
Is Ms Byrne saying that such a situation cannot arise now? Let us take the example of a situation where Joe Bloggs goes to the Garda stations in Mountmellick or Edenderry, both which are open three, four or five hours each day, and the Passport Office then contacts one of those stations and the call is not answered. Is there a system in place now to ensure that cannot now arise? I would like a short answer to this question.
Ms Siobh?n Byrne:
That issue has been resolved. We have a dedicated team within the passport service and there is a corresponding team within An Garda Síochána. We collate the applications where that issue may arise. We share that information with An Garda Síochána through secure methods and it will respond to us.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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That is okay. How much is the overall cost of the Passport Office every year?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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It is €35 million. I noticed passports brought in a similar figure.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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It is €53 million. It washes its own face. It pays for itself.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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On applying for renewal, someone's passport might be due to expire in June, but around St. Patrick's Day he or she will start thinking about these things. If someone's passport is not due to expire until June, can he or she apply for renewal in January or February?
Ms Siobh?n Byrne:
Yes. You can apply for renewal at any stage. If you are applying online, and you have less than 12 months' validity on your passport, you can apply very simply online. You do not need to submit any documentation to us. If you wish to do it earlier than that, where there is more than 12 months' validity on your passport, you will need to send it back to us but that would be rare.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I suggest the Passport Office advertise that. During the quiet months, when people are not travelling anywhere, that might be one way of dealing with it. In other words, the Passport Office would not get a huge spike at this time of year. It has started to slow down a little in the past couple of weeks, or at least I hope so. If it was advertised early in the year, or even over the winter months, that people could apply and get renewals, the situation could be dealt with that way.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I was nearly caught myself regarding a passport last year. I just copped it that day, but with the online turnaround I got the passport in three or four days.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I could not believe it, but that was a simple renewal. I ask Ms Byrne to clarify whether it is €180 or €200 that is paid for urgent appointments.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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What is the fee for the one-day turnaround?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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If Joe Bloggs wants a passport tomorrow, can he get it? He is travelling on Saturday.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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On a point Deputy Carthy raised earlier, how long is the waiting list for an appointment? I ask Ms Byrne to clarify that.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Is there a three-day wait?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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At a previous meeting, the Secretary General of the Department, Mr. Niall Burgess, told us there was a backlog of 89,000 passports that would be cleared by the end of July. Deputy Munster asked in 2021 whether it was likely that everything would "be cleared by the end of July, or at least mid-July, as opposed to the end of June as stated." Serious problems were outlined but here we are 12 months later with very much the same issue. It is reported in the media there are currently 195,000 people waiting for travel documents. Not all of them are part of the backlog. What is categorised as part of the backlog at present? What is not being issued on time?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Will Ms Byrne come back to us with a figure on that?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I raised the possibility of a Passport Office in Belfast, in addition to a service for the 18 MPs in the North. Mr. Sammy Wilson might be anxious to use it, or some of the MPs there. In the context of the current crisis, there is a need for it.
There are 846 people currently staffing the Passport Office. Is it correct that 41% of them are temporary staff?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Is there an explanation for that? The figure seems very high.
Mr. John Conlan:
There is a cyclical nature to passport applications. I know we are dealing with a backlog at the moment, but we tend to find that from the start of January on - it really peaks in April, May and June - we get a massive number applications. We take resources and temporary people in to match that.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Do newbies from outside the service account for some of that 41% or are they existing civil servants?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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They are complete newbies. It is straight in.
Mr. John Conlan:
We have some places where people would come in, maybe every year, and do 26 or 30 weeks that suits them. Everyone else who comes in we have to bring in and put through a training process. Part of our project at the moment is that we are looking at what our long-term staffing structure will be. It is hard to forecast at the moment because such an absolute volume of passport applications have come in, but we are looking at workforce planning.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Some of them are regular seasonal staff.
Ms Siobh?n Byrne:
This is an exceptional year. On our full complement of staff for a normal busy season, there were about 600 staff in the passport service in 2019 to process applications that year. That would be a normal year. This year is an exceptional year because of the high demand but that will not continue forever. It is more appropriate to hire temporary staff when we hit an exceptionally high year as we have at the moment. As Mr. Conlan said, the contracts for these staff are much longer than we would normally provide for. That leads into our planning and forecasting for next year and the work we have to continue to do in quarter 4 this year. For instance, with foreign birth registrations, FBRs, it is important we maintain the high levels of staff so we can prioritise those areas when passport demand subsides a little.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The Passport Office might have very few temporary staff during the winter period.
Ms Siobh?n Byrne:
This year, we will continue to maintain the high level of staff because there is a backlog in FBRs that needs to be managed. One of the key reasons for retaining staff and giving them such long contracts is workforce planning to manage that element of the service, which needs to be improved.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I suggest and re-emphasise that the Passport Office advertise very strongly regarding that. If someone's passport has six or seven months to go, they should apply and not wait until June or the week before he or she travels. It is so frustrating. The staff have great patience. In fairness, I acknowledged earlier that people at the other end of the phone in the office are generally very helpful. I ask the representatives to pass that on to staff.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I know they get a hard time. It can be fairly hectic there sometimes trying to get something through. Generally, the service is very good.
I have a question regarding North-South money and some of the funding that has been put in place following the Good Friday Agreement. There was €3.7 million in funding in 2020 that seemed to go to organisations on the ground in the North for community development, community enhancement and trying to benefit disadvantaged areas and so on. Is that figure of €3.7 million in 2020 correct?
Mr. John Conlan:
We increased it to €5 million in 2021. When we looked at the effects of Brexit, we wanted to make sure we redoubled our engagement with communities in the North.
We felt this was a very good way. People have been very complimentary about that reconciliation fund and think it is a great idea. We really use it to try to build relationships with the communities. Mr. de Búrca has used it on the ground in the North.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I saw some of the projects that were funded. On the vetting of organisations to which the funding goes, are there situations arising where some of the funding might go to groups that are slightly questionable or where people central to the groups might still be involved in paramilitary activity?
Mr. Ruair? de B?rca:
I was the Government's representative in the North for a number of years as part of my current role. In that context I saw first-hand the work the reconciliation fund does. There are between 150 and 200 projects per year going through the reconciliation fund. These funded organisations are predominantly well-known. From time to time, diversionary activities in communities where young people might be vulnerable to being excited around certain days of the year are funded. This is so kids can be taken out and not tempted into trouble. Every effort is made to ensure nobody is funded who should not be funded.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Have there been cases where money has been withheld due to issues arising because of people central to those organisations facing charges or being charged and convicted?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I am not talking about the past. What about now?
Mr. Ruair? de B?rca:
Many people who are former prisoners are doing extremely good community work and leading their communities. Every effort is made to ensure the funding goes to the purposes for which it is intended. It may be, from time to time, that somebody employed in an organisation does something, as happens in every organisation. The funding goes to the purpose for which it is intended. The record shows this, and we follow that up with audits, evaluations and things like that. We maintain very close contact with the Police Service of Northern Ireland, PSNI, and others to ensure the funding goes where it should.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I accept there would be ex-prisoners and people who were involved with paramilitary activity on both sides in the past. Have there been cases in the past ten years where funding has been withheld or where the brakes have been put on the funding?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I do not expect the witness to speak to an individual case but at this time, is there an organisation or organisations whose funding may have to be halted?
Mr. Ruair? de B?rca:
I think I know the case to which the Chairman is referring. Funding has gone to organisations that do good work, and I think the Chairman is referring to a certain individual involved in that work. That does not mean the purpose of the funding was incorrect and it did not go to where it should have gone.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Okay.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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One of the conditions of the funding is that it does not leak through to any paramilitary organisations.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. I thank Mr. de Búrca. We will take a second round of questioning. We will take five minutes each and see how we go.
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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The next phase of my questioning is about the investment we are making in Africa. I was there recently and commend the work done by the Department of Foreign Affairs. It is very much a strategic growth zone in the global economy and it is very interesting to see the interest being taken by China and the European Union in investing in Africa in general. Will the witnesses provide an outline of the additional resources being put in by the Department in that region? It would be interesting to get that perspective.
Mr. Ruair? de B?rca:
It is interesting the meeting is taking place today because the eighth Africa Ireland Economic Forum is taking place in the RDS. It is the first we have had since the Covid-19 pandemic, and it brings together Irish and African business. It is an opportunity for Irish business to begin to situate itself to take advantage of the growth opportunity that is Africa. Africa will be the most populous continent in the world by 2050, and that is an opportunity for Ireland and Irish companies.
One of our actions with the aid programme is putting together the kind of strategic infrastructure that enables those economies to grow as sustainably as possible with the right kinds of institutions so Ireland and others can have effective trading and investment relationships. We see that already with a country like South Africa, where we have that fully mature relationship. Ireland is a significant investor in South Africa and that country is a significant investor in Ireland.
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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The Department has a really fascinating development in Japan, which is fantastic. I believe it is called Ireland House. Currently, many State services are being run out of Dubai for quite a large part of the Middle East, even Egypt and other locations. It is crucial for the likes of Bord Bia and other State agencies to have a base on the African continent where they could operate for that region.
I come from a farming background. There has been political instability in north Africa and I know there was a huge drive for democracy there; one of the major catalysts in that respect was the increase in food prices. It is really worrying to see even the minimum progress - it is not perfect - being put at risk in 2023. We can look at the grain port of Mariupol and the Ukrainian harvest that will not reach the market. Egypt, for example, was the largest supporter of Ukrainian grain and the single largest net importer of grain in the world, if I am correct. I am using Egypt as an example but those countries in North Africa are crying out for new sources of agrifood products. There are individual concerns relating to the procurement processes around how to obtain food, where it is government-controlled rather than market-led. The Department of Foreign Affairs could make a big difference to Irish agriculture by focusing on that area.
I am a Corkonian and I raise the fact that all printing of passports happens in Dublin. I do not want to be overly populist and I appreciate the reason for the backlog in passports was down to the human resources side of things, as Ms Byrne indicates. Passport machines are capable of printing even more than they are now but the paperwork has to be done for that.
If somebody completes the documentation, it is an unmerciful journey to go from Castletownbere, Kerry, Wexford, Waterford and Tipperary to Balbriggan in north Dublin in order to collect a passport in an emergency. There is much merit in having at least one machine in the south of the country, particularly any location with good road connectivity. It would make a mighty difference.
Unfortunately, often in these circumstances, as I am sure the witnesses are far more aware of than we are, there can be incredible tragedy involved where people are required to collect a passport in an emergency situation. I know of many bereavements involving young and old people and families panicking about getting passports in order to travel. It would make a remarkable difference. Will the witnesses look at that please?
Mr. Ruair? de B?rca:
I absolutely agree with the Deputy on the importance of investment in sustainable food systems across Africa. Last year the Minister for Foreign Affairs and the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine committed to invest €800 million to 2027 in development assistance for sustainable food systems globally.
We are backing that up with an interdepartmental group which brings in agribusiness, universities, NGOs, Bord Bia and Sustainable Food Systems Ireland in order that there is a coherent Irish offer. There is a coherent Irish offer to countries on the continent of Africa, in order that we can build and share and learn how to do climate-smart agriculture that gives everybody quick nutrition wins.
We are looking at certain areas of Irish expertise, in particular, including good seeds. In Ireland, one gets approximately 16 tonnes of potatoes per hectare in productivity. In Kenya, one gets about 5 tonnes. We are sharing our expertise, not just on seeds, but on storage and value chains, so that it is also about value addition in business. We are doing that but there is more we can do and there are more partnerships we can build with the Irish farming sector on that. We are on a journey. We also have a small scheme between our Department and the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, where we provide seed capital for Irish agribusiness to look at business opportunities in Africa in partnership with African companies. That is part of that journey.
I will pick up on the Deputy point about Egypt. I had a conversation last night with an Egyptian lady who was here yesterday and who met colleagues in the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine precisely to look at where partnerships could be taken forward between Ireland and Egypt around better food, with a view to doing something in advance of the Sharm el-Sheikh Conference of the Parties, COP, climate change conference in November.
We are trying to use the aid programme as smartly as we can both to find opportunities for Ireland and to address the global food crisis. While we have to invest in systems to get better food to grow, there is an emerging hunger crisis because of what is going on in Ukraine, specifically in the Horn of Africa about which some Deputies got a briefing in the past week or two. Over the past 18 months, we have invested €48 million through the aid programme in the humanitarian response there and a further €12 million in trying to address those longer-term strategic food supply issues. We are on it.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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The Department has changed the situation, in terms of trade desks, with other countries in the past few years. Will Mr. Conlan outline what the change has been? Has some of it moved to the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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What does Mr. Conlan mean when he says "back"?
Mr. John Conlan:
It had originally come from there, approximately eight years previously. A previous Government, in approximately 2014, allocated trade promotion to the Department of Foreign Affairs, which became the Department became the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade. When the new Government was formed, the decision was taken to move trade promotion back to the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Will Mr. Conlan outline to me what the current relationship is between the Department of Foreign Affairs and the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment when it comes to trade?
Mr. John Conlan:
We work extremely closely with our colleagues, both in the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment and the State agencies. Where there are local market teams when the embassy and the agencies come together in the various countries around the world, we lead and facilitate them and chair meetings. We also facilitate trade events and promotional events on the ground in the missions. We find that, much of the time, an agency such as Bord Bia might come to us to say it wants to do a specific team event around an area and asks us for help. We have the network of contacts. We bring the people in and run the event with it. We have a very close relationship. In Dublin, we work very closely with the headquarters staff on what they need, especially on promoting Ireland throughout the world.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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When the then Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade was on missions or having events before the changeover, did the Department and industry stakeholders go, or was there always someone from the Department responsible for enterprise and trade seconded to go with them? Is this joint venture new?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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I am asking whether there was always a joint approach in this regard and the balance of power has just changed slightly.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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The relevant Minister has changed.
Mr. Ruair? de B?rca:
The Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment is a parent Department for all of the State agencies with the statutory responsibility to do external promotion, such as Enterprise Ireland and the Industrial Development Authority, IDA. While the trade promotion responsibility was in the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade, as it was for those eight years, the statutory agencies remained in the then Department of Business, Enterprise and Innovation. Effectively, it meant that the two Departments had to work hand in glove around trade policy and promotion. The embassies have a function to work in partnership with those State agencies but also to act on the behalf of State agencies where they are not present. In reality, while the statutory function has returned to the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, that requirement for us to work in partnership has not changed. What we have seen over the past number of years is an increased investment in what we call Ireland houses, where we co-locate, where possible, the embassies or consulates with those State agencies. One is getting a whole-of-Ireland service in a market. That has worked very well.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Does that imply that we tend to situate consulates where we have a strong trading relationship?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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I am not sure of the language in terms of where we do not have a consulate, but we have a trade presence. Will Mr. de Búrca outline whether there is a person who has a particular responsibility for a particular country within his Department? How does it break down within his Department?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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That is very helpful. There is a regional director for America, but the Department might have a trade person involved in New York or the tri-state area. Is that a fair characterisation of what is happening?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Am I right in thinking that there is a regional director for the Americas, Africa and Asia?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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How does a regional director for Africa interact with our aid budget?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Do all the regional directors we are talking about now sit in the Department of Foreign Affairs?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Does development and co-operation include Irish Aid?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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We have an aid relationship with certain countries in Africa. We do not have an aid relationship with every country in Africa. We do not have an aid relationship with every country in Africa.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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But not all.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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We do not have an aid relationship with ever country in Africa but every country in Africa sits under the Irish Aid banner in terms of trade.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Is that Irish Aid?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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It is not, really.
Mr. Ruair? de B?rca:
It does not have a legal status. It is what we use to describe the Government's development co-operation programme, but our relationship with countries goes well beyond development co-operation.
We have aid, political and economic relationships. Sometimes it is four-legged, and there is sort of a diaspora relationship as well.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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I am watching my time tick down. I do not-----
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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It would be very useful if we could have clarification on what we are referring to as sub-Saharan Africa. I am not asking for it now, because it might be a very long list of countries. I only have two minutes left and I just want to put this to Mr. de Búrca. As he said, the development is Irish Aid. We do not have an aid relationship with every country in Africa. I know from the negotiations on forming the Government that the nature of Irish Aid is very valuable in the global sphere because unlike other countries, such as our nearest neighbours, for example, who have managed to kind of link their aid budget to trade, we have resisted that so far and do not do that. Irish money is very valuable because we have so far resisted the relationship between trade and aid. I ask Mr. de Búrca if it is advisable for us to put trading relationships on the African continent under the banner of Irish Aid when we do not actually have an aid relationship with specific countries.
Mr. Ruair? de B?rca:
We do not put them under the banner of Irish Aid. The trading relationships are bilateral and do not come in under the aid relationship. The aid programme is about much more than Africa as well. In 2020, aid went to about 137 countries worldwide. We have aid programmes in Latin America and the Mekong Delta, for example. The colleagues who work in Africa know those countries very well and in depth. We do not tie our aid. One of the things we do is invest in countries in order that they can increase their economic activity. Within that, because the countries are growing, there are downstream market opportunities for Ireland as well, which is good because it helps them grow their economies.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Just to say in my final 15 seconds, I am not suggesting for a second that we are doing that right now. Through what may appear to be very reasonable staffing or organisational choices, there may be a legacy into the next few decades where there will, by proxy, be a relationship formed between trade and aid. I am just flagging that might not be in the best interest of our overseas development fund.
Mr. Ruair? de B?rca:
We try to be very careful to make sure that all appropriate Chinese walls are maintained. If it gives the Deputy some comfort, we are, as I said, checked by the OECD Development Assistance Committee periodically, which testifies to whether our aid is tied or not, and it is not. In addition, we have been found by the Overseas Development Institute in each of the past two years, 2020 and 2021, to be the world's most principled donor, which-----
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Which is fantastic and worth protecting. In the relationship moving between Departments now, it is worth protecting it.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I have a number of questions. The officials might just come back to me on each of them. The Comptroller and Auditor General suggested - and I agree that it would be a good idea - that there be a separation between passport and visa and consular services from the point of view of the accounts. Will that be taken on board?
The Book of Estimates for 2019 included a new metric for Passport Online, which was that 95% of the online applications were completed within ten days. This was subsequently changed to 20 days in 2020. Was that exclusively for 2020? Has that been changed back to ten days?
Is the Passport Office facility in Limerick temporary or permanent? This was in our previous report.
Mr. John Conlan:
It is temporary. We took on the outsourced contract from the HSE for the call centre. We have 38 people there today. We hope to go up to 50 shortly.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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That is permanent then.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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One of the recommendations from a previous engagement was that Mr. Conlan would review the ratio of temporary and permanent staff.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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When Mr. Conlan is coming back to us with the workforce planning thing that we asked for, he might just give us a note on that as well.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Some of the stuff relating to passports is not stacking up for me judging by what the people who have been coming to my office, which has been for quite a long time now, have said. I am always in favour of fixing the system rather than the individual problem. I certainly do not think any of us wants that kind of level of engagement with the Passport Office. We want people to be able to navigate the process themselves. However, the timelines officials gave do not stack up. Is the timeline for an application counted from the time that the application is made - and then the turnaround time - or is it counted from the time it is checked? It looks like it is counted from the time it is checked. I have had numerous of experiences of this. It is very hard to stack that up.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Is that when all of the documents are in?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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So that is after it is checked?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I have got people who have been waiting months. It was said there are very small numbers. I do not suppose I have an exclusive group in my area that is disproportionate in the context of long delays. They have found it impossible to track matters. There was a time when the site ceased to function. The information I am getting just does not pan out with me in comparison with the people who have been in contact with me, where they have allowed enough time and yet their passports have not been delivered within that time. I cannot figure out why officials gave us information that differs greatly from my experience of matters.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Why am I getting all the complex ones?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I acknowledged the online improvements. However, I cannot for the life of me figure out why I am getting so many of these queries. They are not from all over the country, rather, they are from my constituency. What the Department officials told us just does not tally with my experience in terms of the timeline for some of the applications that I have been engaging on. The officials have been very helpful, but I do not want to be involved in it. I do not know why people cannot navigate this and why they are so frustrated. This is not tallying with my experience. They are not all complex. For example, it is a family with an additional child. They are not people who have to prove an application where perhaps a child was born in a different country or something such as that. They do not appear to be complex to me. Perhaps I will send the officials a few examples and they might do a test on them, because I am certainly running into a difficulty with that.
Was there any money written off over the period of the pandemic in terms of consular services?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I endorse what Deputy Catherine Murphy said. The officials already agreed that a sending a template or questionnaire to Deputies' offices - not that we do not have enough to do - might be helpful and save us time in the long run through this process to see where the problems are.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Is there any part of this sublet to an agency or is it all done by the Department currently?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Is it a proposal that at some point the Department would outsource some of it?
Mr. John Conlan:
No, not necessarily. The only thing we have outsourced relates to us having taken on the HSE contact tracers in Limerick. We took them on based on a specific fixed term. It is a 20- or 26-week contract. They worked for us for that period. It is just that we needed capacity. We were struggling with recruitment.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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That is what I was just thinking. It has been agreed to bring the Army into the airport now and the contentious issue is the rate of pay. Has there been any suggestion that the Army be brought in to help in this regard on the same rate of pay? That is what I would suggest before that even gets into the argument.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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If Mr. Conlan is struggling to recruit. I know we are probably coming to the end of it, but-----
Mr. John Conlan:
We have kind of got the hurdle now. There were four different competitions to get to where we are and it is a detailed process. We are delivering the people now. I know they are coming in. Many have come in only recently, so we did not have all those people for the whole year. We have to train them. I have met some of them and, in fairness, they really are enthusiastic and learning quick, but there is a learning process. We have to protect the integrity of the Irish passport, and we do that with our training and systems.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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The office spent more than €2 million on the issuing and processing system and intends to upgrade again. Can that €2 million be safeguarded? Is it the case that it was not a waste?
Mr. John Conlan:
The main part of that €2 million was related mainly to an operational blueprint for all the systems in the passport service, all the processes and all the flows of documents, passports and photographs. To let us design the new system, we had to develop that up, and that was a massive chunk of work. The blueprint-----
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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That is basically the start of the reform. It is not waste anyway.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I wish to ask Mr. de Búrca something that jumps out at me regarding mandatory contributions. They are said to amount to €35 million but €39 million was paid. If they are mandatory, how was a calculation of €4 million missed?
Mr. John Conlan:
That relates to me and Ireland's contributions to international organisations. It concerns the UN in this case. In particular, that is the UN peacekeeping budget. It is notoriously difficult to estimate this figure every year. The UN works on the basis of a July–June cycle. In addition, there is a three-year budget process in the UN, with the first year being a really high contribution year. The contribution the second year is high, and in the third year it is quite low. 2020 was the second year. More than €3 million of the amount related to UN peacekeeping. It is based on the number of peacekeeping missions the organisation has and whether it extends them and makes more peacekeepers available on the ground. The figure does not become clear until well after the Irish budget, which is in October. This stuff happens later on. It is just very hard to estimate.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I accept that. How does the Department decide which international and UN agencies are allocated funding?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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What controls and oversight mechanisms are in place to ensure funding goes where it is supposed to?
Mr. John Conlan:
The mandatory contributions we make out of Vote 28 are mainly to fund the organisations, so we fund into their budgetary systems. We have our own people that work with those organisations and their own governance systems to make sure the money is being spent in the appropriate manner.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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How much has Ireland spent on securing a UN Council seat?
Mr. John Conlan:The campaign itself was €800,000. The cost for last year was €5 million, and, in 2020, we spent approximately €1 million setting up. To the end of 2021, the cost is €6 million.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Does Mr. Conlan agree it was not beneficial from a value-for-money perspective, at least not to the taxpayer, to have acquired 4,000 pairs of socks?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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To be fair, I would certainly reconsider it for the future in that, to me, it seems like a dreadful waste of money in this day and age.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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My hearing is not that good. What was bought?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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There were some media reports indicating a certain amount of what I would call memorabilia, including pens and different things-----
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Did I hear the Deputy say "socks"?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Socks.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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How many pairs?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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There were 4,000.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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The issue was that they were sent off in diplomatic bags. Senator Craughwell brought this up. I would not find it appropriate at all. I understand we have the seat and I am not going to get dug in on this at all; however, for the future, we should consider something more appropriate.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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In fairness, a lot of work was put into getting the seat, and that was successful. It is important to acknowledge that. I was not aware of the socks, however. That is the first I heard about them.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I would like to ask two short questions.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I will let people back in for-----
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I am seeking replies to two questions. They are about separating-----
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Could the Deputy hold them? I have some second-round questions to ask.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Mine are not even questions. I am just seeking replies to the questions I asked about the separation of accounts. On the change in completion time from ten days to 20, was that just in 2020?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Is it back now?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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And separating the-----
Mr. John Conlan:
At the moment, regarding services to citizens under programme A, we feel it picks up all the services. Having them all in one area highlights all the work we do for citizens. Passports represent the biggest single interface. The consular service is there. There are visa interactions and foreign birth registrations. We just have it all in the one area, which relates to serving our citizens.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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We would find it better if that were not the case.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Could I ask about buildings and embassies? In 2019, this committee recommended that the Department review its rental of properties abroad with a view to moving to purchasing where possible. At the moment, there are 28 properties with a total value of €159 million and seven more accounting for approximately €10 million. I take it there are 38 properties owned and 134 leased or rented. Is that correct?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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What is the cost of maintenance for those embassies?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I note from Mr. Conlan's advance briefing that he concurs with the committee's briefing. He stated mission properties can offer real value for money for the Exchequer compared with long-term rental. Reference has been made to achieving potential savings from moving from older properties with high energy and maintenance costs. Three years on, how many embassies have been bought? I understand they cannot all be purchased. One has to get money from the Government and suitable properties and everything. We had 35 properties in 2020. Where are we now?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Have any been bought since 2019?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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What countries are they in?
Mr. John Conlan:
We are buying in Santiago, Chile, and Bogotá, Colombia. In both cases, they are new missions. When we got on the ground and got behind the property markets there, we saw a value-for-money opportunity. We are seizing it. I am on the verge of signing all the deals on one and, hopefully, very close on the other.
Does the Minister have to sign off on those?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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What is the total cost of the Tokyo project to date?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. The annual rent is just over €20 million.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The €94 million-----
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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What type of leases would the Department normally have?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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There is also a plan to start 25 more missions during this Dáil term. Is that right?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Do we have an estimate for the cost of those 25 new missions?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Is that combined?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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These were smaller embassies in rented or leased properties.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The witnesses said ambassadors are always civil servants and they generally come from within the Civil Service. What is the average wage for an ambassador?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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What is the range?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The income for an ambassador is €80,000 to €100,000.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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It depends on what grade the person is at. What would happen if someone moved sideways in the Civil Service and was coming from a higher pay grade, maybe double that? What would happen there? Would they get the ambassador's salary or their previous pay grade?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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If someone was on €180,000 or €200,000, they would normally retain that. Who would decide whether that was the case?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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It would always happen. It is not that it normally happens but that it always happens in each case.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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We provide finance to the occupied areas, to Palestine. I see that €10 million was spent on that in 2020 and €13 million in 2019. Has the figure for 2021 increased or has it gone down?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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This year will be consistent with that.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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It was reported some time back that buildings, homes and structures that had been financially contributed to by the Irish State were demolished or destroyed by Israeli forces in the West Bank. Does the Department have an assessment of that?
Mr. Ruair? de B?rca:
We are part of the West Bank Protection Consortium. It is a European body made up of nine countries plus the European institutions. We have provided just over €1 million to the consortium since 2015. The overall investment by the consortium since it started is about €50 million. There has been about €750,000 worth of financial loss to the consortium due to demolitions and seizures since 2015. There were 34 buildings demolished.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Has this been taken up with the Israeli Embassy?
Mr. Ruair? de B?rca:
This has been taken up with the Israelis in many different contexts, including by the Minister with the embassy here. This week another letter issued to the Israeli authorities from the consortium. We also raised it in the Security Council this week. We and the Minister think it is important that we keep a spotlight on the demolitions and that we keep asking for compensation.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Have the Israelis compensated in any cases?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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What is the response of the Israeli ambassador to all of this?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Does the Department expect to get compensation for the Irish money that was part of that EU initiative?
Mr. Ruair? de B?rca:
We will keep the spotlight on the issue and keep raising it. We can be hopeful but past behaviour will probably determine expectation. We also have to look at the broader context. Most of the money we collectively invest in the West Bank Protection Consortium does what it says on the tin. It goes towards protecting people. We need to keep our focus on that outcome while also keeping the dialogue open with the Israeli authorities to ensure they are held to account as much as possible, accepting that-----
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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According to the UN, in 2020 alone 689 buildings were demolished, most of them homes. In 2021, it was reported that Irish aid to Palestine had been destroyed, including solar panels and tents. It is appalling that this would happen to people who are suffering already. That is the human aspect of it. The aspect we are discussing at this meeting is the Irish money and other EU funds that are going in there but the human aspect is the most important part of it. It is appalling that Israel feels it can just drive a bulldozer through this. I would ask the Department to take a strong line with the Israeli authorities and with the embassy here. We are taking a strong line on Russia, and rightly so. This might be overshadowed by the war in Ukraine but the suffering in Palestine since 1947 is outrageous. This State, the Irish people and Palestinian support groups have played a positive role in trying to highlight that suffering and it is important that we do that. We may be falsely accused of being other things because we raise it. People should not be labelled wrongly because they raise legitimate questions about how oppressed people are tormented, harassed and driven to despair. I urge the Department to continue working on that. I thank Mr. de Búrca for that information.
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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The Chair raised an interesting point on salary arrangements. As a Deputy, if I were to lose my seat tomorrow and am subsequently elected to the Seanad or, in 2024, to a local authority, I would not continue to receive a Deputy's salary. Yet, if I were the Secretary General of the Department of Health on just shy of €300,000 and I became the ambassador to Germany, I would take that salary with me. That is bizarre. That is the rule in place at present, that if a Secretary General of a Department leaves that position, he or she takes the full salary with them. Being an ambassador is perhaps the greatest civilian honour a civil servant could get. The level of money a Secretary General can be paid to fulfil that role is grotesque, and I believe the range in salary for the exact same role, going from assistant principal on approximately €60,000 to hypothetically up to €300,000, is wrong. There is no other career in the private or public sector where that range is possible. It is bonkers. Does the Comptroller and Auditor General have a view on this salary structure?
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Just the structure of it. I am not trying to trap the Comptroller and Auditor General.
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Am I right in saying that is probably the only career in the Civil Service where such a pay arrangement is in place?
Mr. Seamus McCarthy:
There are pay scales and an arrangement for severance payments about which I reported some years ago. There are severance schemes. This may be a conflation of two elements. I cannot comment on an individual case but there is a severance scheme for Secretaries General when they come to the end of their contracts.
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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I am not trying to undermine the work of the Department of Foreign Affairs does. It does enormously positive work on behalf of the State, but that rule irks me a bit. People are not fully aware of this rule and it should not be in place. I appreciate we must get the top people into those roles, particularly where diplomatic relations may be strained or there is a strategic interest.
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Cleary is here. Does the Department Public Expenditure and Reform have a view on this?
Mr. John Conlan:
We have a range of different grades of ambassadors. Some of our missions are very small, of which I am sure some of my colleagues would be aware, and would involve two, three, four or five posted staff. Some missions are very big, such as in Brussels where we have hundreds of people. You have to look at the complexity of the organisations people are managing when they are overseas.
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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I get that, and that is to be accepted, but the Taoiseach is Head of the Government and he does not get paid remotely near that amount. I asked Ms Byrne about a printing facility being located somewhere in the south of the country. I understand the building in Cork is reaching the end of its lifespan, according to the Minister for Foreign Affairs. Is there any consideration there? He has not denied that it might be something that is being planned in the future. Could Ms Byrne tell us if that is a possibility or if it is something the Department could look at from a practicality point of view?
Ms Siobh?n Byrne:
To give some context on what is involved in the production of a passport and the machines involved, these are industrial machines. Every printing machine has a mailing machine in tandem. The investment of these machines alone is about €3 million, and there is all of the infrastructure that needs to sit around that. There have to be passport books, and these need to be stored in a highly secure area with a vault. The machines must be in a highly secure area. There is piping, air control systems and gas. It is very complex, rather than going into too much detail. It would cost between €5 million and €6 million by the time the machines are bought and the infrastructure installed. It would cost an additional €300,000 to support those machines for a year. A significant investment would need to be made in making such a decision. We need to look at that in the context of the services we provide through our online service, that the majority of renewals are done within a fairly short time period, and a four-day service is available to people from the Cork office.
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Are there costings available? Has the service done any costings on that for the Minister or for the Department? I am sure there have been, because the question has been asked regularly.
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Has the service done a costing on locating one in Cork? If Ms Byrne does not have the answer, will she come back to the Committee on Public Accounts with it?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I am sure there was no suggestion they are not trustworthy in Cork. Going back over the figures, it was said that €5 million was spent to date on the UN Security Council seat.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Do we have a breakdown of that in the accounts yet?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Please, for the benefit of the committee. We will host the monthly presidency, will we not?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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How much did that cost? Was that part of the €6 million?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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It will be in the breakdown. We did not send any socks, did we?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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If Mr. Conlan is sending us the breakdown of the figures, that is fine.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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That is grand. To reiterate what I said earlier, this is constructive criticism that I ask Ms Byrne to take on board. It is what we experienced in the office. I suggest, without a shadow of a doubt, that the system to inform people there is an issue with documentation should be done at the uploading stage rather than at the processing stage, where the application may be placed at the back of the queue or whatever. It seems to be backwards to me. We would not have the issues we have today if we were to intersect problems at that stage.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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We have heard a few suggestions during the meeting, including trying to flatten the curve, advertise during the winter, and others that might be taken on board.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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That concludes the questions. I thank the witnesses from the Department of Foreign Affairs, including Mr. Conlan and his staff, and the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform for joining us today and for the work done in preparing for this meeting. I also thank the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. McCarthy, and his staff for attending and assisting the meeting. I acknowledge that the advance briefing notes were useful.
Is it agreed to request the clerk to seek any follow-up information and carry out any agreed actions arising from the meeting? Agreed. Is it also agreed that we note and publish the opening statements and briefing provided for today's meeting? Agreed.
The Committee on Public Accounts will adjourn until next Thursday, 7 July 2022, when we will engage with the Department of Education.