Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the Minister of State, who is a former Senator, back to Seanad Éireann. This is an important debate, as we all know. In the previous Seanad, we had a debate on the future of local democracy, and one of the many recommendations out of that was that there would be a task force established under the next programme for Government to look at all the issues facing local democracy. This related to service delivery, the work of the democratically elected local authority members, the powers that have been slowly but surely eroded and transferred to those who are unelected, the safety of local authority members, a concern we share with them at this stage, and making sure local democracy works for the citizens. I thank the Minister of State for coming here today. He is most welcome.

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Members of the Seanad for extending their invitation to me to attend. I was delighted to accept it. I always welcome the opportunity to engage on the matters related to local government.It is something that I hold dear, having served as a councillor for 11 years and as mayor on two occasions. I am very aware that Members of this House have a huge interest in local government affairs. All Members of this House are dedicated advocates of strong local government and as Minister of State with responsibility for local government, I really appreciate their engagement on matters relating to local government. This is my first opportunity since being appointed at the end of January to address the House on the issue of the local democracy task force, arising out of a commitment in the programme for Government. I was honoured to be part of Fine Gael's programme negotiating team.

As the Cathaoirleach rightly referenced, the establishment of the local democracy task force was a key recommendation emerging from last year's Seanad Public Consultation Committee report on the

future of local democracy. I am pleased to have the opportunity to address progress on this matter. To begin, I will give Members a little bit of background to the establishment of the local democracy task force. The programme for Government recognises the vital importance of local government and states that the Government will convene a local democracy task force with the local government sector to finalise a programme for the reform and strengthening of local government to ensure more effective and efficient delivery of services and the implementation of Government policy for citizens. The programme for Government specifies that the task force should consider the principle of subsidiarity and give consideration to devolving more powers to local authorities for local services. The Seanad report called for the devolution of more powers to local authorities through the legislative process to strengthen and enhance local democracy and the delivery of additional local services. It also states that the task force should examine how to strengthen the framework and powers of municipal districts and area committees. The task force will also consider if there is a role for a small number of town-focused bodies to be introduced on a phased, regional basis to provide a focal point for raising the concerns of large towns and co-ordinating town-focused activities. It is not intended that any proposals in this respect that may be forthcoming from the task force would interfere in the parity of structures and powers at sub-county level across the State.

The programme for Government specifies that the task force should consider granting councillors greater input and control over the development and implementation of local authority budgets and

mechanisms for enhanced physical autonomy. The Seanad report called for greater revenue-raising powers for local government and I am sure that is something the task force will examine under the finance pillar. The programme for Government states that the task force should examine rebalancing power between elected councillors and the executive to ensure that elected officials have a right to be consulted on a greater range of decisions and a right to know of all other decisions in a timely manner. It also states that mechanisms should be examined to increase the accountability of the chief executive and directors of services to councillors for executive decisions. The programme for Government also states that the task force should examine the timely reporting of the National Oversight and Audit Committee, NOAC, and engagement with public representatives, which is an important piece. NOAC does really good work but unless councillors are provided with information in a timely fashion, enabling them to compare the performance of their local authority with that of others, they cannot hold the executive to account. I expect that to be a significant element of the recommendations coming forward.

Finally, the programme for Government sets out that the task force should consider the proportion of local authority members to population. It also contains commitments to examine how to deliver greater diversity within the sector. A substantial body of work has been completed on this issue, including the Seanad Public Consultation Committee report on the future of local democracy.Other organisations have also carried out extensive research in this area, including the Council of Europe’s Congress of Local and Regional Authorities, the 21st Century Councillor in Irish Local Government by the AILG, and the Building Stronger Local Government report by the AILG in November of last year.

It is my intention that the significant body of work that has already been done as part of this will form the basis for the deliberations of the task force that is being established, that the foundations that have, essentially, been put in place will be built on, and that recommendations can come forward to me, as Minister of State, that I will be able to implement. Some may require legislative change and others may not.

I look forward to hearing the contributions from Members. It is important that councillors' voices are heard on that task force. They will be an integral part of it. I know all Senators will have their own views on the membership and the terms of reference, which perhaps I can get into a bit more in my closing remarks. I look forward to hearing what Senators have to say on this task force and the significant body of work that will be undertaken by it when it is established very shortly.

PJ Murphy (Fine Gael)
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I wish to share time with Senator Mark Duffy.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Is that agreed? Agreed.

PJ Murphy (Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister of State for coming in to discuss this matter. As somebody who served five and half years as a local councillor in Galway County Council before my election to the Seanad, I greatly welcome that the Government will convene this local democracy task force, which will bring forward proposals to Government to consider for the reform and strengthening of local government.

As the Minister of State outlined, there are a number of focus points outlined for this task force to make recommendations on. I will briefly discuss four of these points. First is increasing the range of reserved functions and consideration of devolving more powers to local authorities for services. Second is rebalancing power between elected councillors and executive officers to ensure elected officers have a right to be consulted on a greater range of discussions and the right to know of all other decisions in a timely manner.

Let us look at the issue of devolving more powers to local authorities for local services. We have had experience with Irish Water taking the responsibility for water services and wastewater services from the local authorities. There have been mixed experiences across the country on that. There was a huge amount of local knowledge within the local authorities on both the water network and wastewater provision. I feel that taking from local authorities and giving to it to national authorities like that is a reprehensible move in many cases.

When it comes to the reserved and executive functions, there is a huge amount of frustration on the part of locally elected councillors with the grey area in between. There is a set number of reserved functions laid out that councillors decide on, and there is a set number of executive functions the executive decides on. In many cases, however, the executive treats everything that is a grey area as an executive function, and councillors feel excluded from the decision-making process in those grey areas. There has to be greater clarity provided on what exactly is a reserved function, what exactly is an executive function, and for those things that are neither, what exactly is the function of both the elected representatives and the executive in that decision-making process.

Third, I wish to look at increasing the accountability of the chief executive and directors of services to councillors for executive decisions. This is often a source of great frustration for councillors and locally elected representatives.Councillors feel they take the hit from the public locally if things do not work out as a result of decisions made by the executive. There are sometimes poorly made and ill-judged decisions that councillors had no hand, act or part in making, but they take the rap on the knuckles from the public on a day-to-day basis. We need a standardised system whereby the chief executive and the directors of services are answerable to elected representatives through a pre-established process. As it stands, many councillors feel they do not have that voice or ability to hold the chief executive and directors to account.

Another issue is the need to strengthen the framework and powers of municipal districts and area committees. During my five and a half years on Galway County Council, it worked very well and very efficiently in terms of the operation of municipal districts. There is a local knowledge of everything that is discussed within the municipal districts. Galway is a huge county, with a two-hour drive from Clifden to Portumna. Councillors simply do not have knowledge of issues happening two hours away from them. Those issues can be discussed efficiently, and decisions on them made efficiently, at municipal district level. However, all those decisions made at municipal district level are only recommendations and must go through to plenary to be discussed. Consideration should be given to installing powers to make binding decisions at that level.

The lump-sum payments to councillors on retirement or the loss of their seat are not made until the retired councillor reaches 50 years of age. If a councillor is first elected at 20, holds that seat for ten years and retires at 30, he or she must wait another 20 years until the lump-sum payment is made. During those 20 years, the payment is not benchmarked and is not earning interest. It devalues on an annual basis through inflation. This would not be tolerated in any other sector. It is an issue we really must examine.

Mark Duffy (Fine Gael)
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I compliment the Cathaoirleach on his work in this area. In the previous Seanad, we had an opportunity to contribute to the work on the task force, for which I thank him. I welcome the Minister of State and thank him for his continued efforts on local government. I wish him well and look forward to supporting his efforts in the term ahead.

I was in the privileged position to work on behalf of my community in the very difficult job of councillor in Mayo County Council. There are many highs and lows to being a councillor, as most of us have experienced. Senator Murphy noted that councillors have a lot of responsibility, and although they sometimes get all the kudos, they mostly get all the blame, but, in effect, they have very little power to change things and be as impactful as they would like to be in their locality. They are the touchpoint and interface with democracy in every local community. We in this House might be in a bubble sometimes but councillors work in their communities every day and are visible and accessible to people. They often go over and beyond in their contribution to their community and society through their volunteerism.

A total of 8% of public expenditure goes on local government. This contrasts with the countries at the top of the chart identified by the OECD, such as Denmark, where the figure is 40%. A paltry contribution is made to local authorities to fund services where there is local autonomy. We still come up with centralised programmes and funds that are imposed in a top-down manner on local authorities with a matched-funding requirement of 10%, 15% or 20%. This puts enormous pressure on local authorities that already live a hand-to-mouth existence.

Councillors need more decision-making powers in their community, particularly in the area of housing. I have raised the issue of decision-making on the zoning of land for residential use with the Minister, with the Minister of State and in this House. In the instance I raised, there was full agreement by planners in the county and the proposal ticked every box that could be requested, yet it was ultimately rejected when it came to the Minister for sign-off. The local comprehension of the situation is not there when that final decision is made. We cannot expect a Minister to have a full understanding of each town and village.

We need to restore the faith of communities in local government by empowering councillors. We certainly also need more accountability. We have brilliant civil servants in our local authorities but it will not always be the case that we have the top-class civil servants. We will sometimes encounter incompetence. If there is incompetence or people are not doing their job, there must be accountability. The salary for councillors is approximately €30,000 and they are talking to people on four times that salary who are not doing the work that is asked of them and, instead, are going off on another agenda. We must decentralise decision-making back to councillors, who are the democratic voice in local authorities, to make sure the civil servants who are paid to do a job are actually doing it. We need mechanisms to do that and to ensure there is accountability. If a chief executive, director of service or any member of a local authority is not doing the job he or she is resourced and paid to do by the State, he or she must be held accountable.

For semi-State bodies that are State funded, such as Transport Infrastructure Ireland, Eir, ESB and Uisce Éireann, there needs to be an orbit within local authorities to ensure overlap and joined-up thinking. In the case of TII's local transport plans for towns and villages, for example, there may be simple, quick fixes that could improve safety, whether by way of an extension of a footpath for a school or installation of speed ramps. Engineers in local authorities have to wait almost a year for approval for such low-cost safety measures. That could all be devolved to local authorities with the stroke of a pen, as opposed to councils having to beg TII for low-cost measures, which are not a priority for it, such as pedestrian crossings, extensions of footpaths or initiating safe routes to school. Decisions on such matters must all be devolved and kept within local authorities.

I look forward to working with the Minister of State and supporting his efforts in this area. He came up through the local authority in Waterford and he understands the situation in minute detail. We need to be granular and minute to get it right, rather than being lofty in our thoughts. It is about decentralising decision-making within local communities.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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I propose to share time with my colleague Senator Joe Conway.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Is that agreed? Agreed.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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The Minister of State is very welcome. I will not reiterate what others said about his experience as a councillor. Local government remains underutilised, under-resourced and underfinanced. I hope the task force will recommend the devolution of more powers, supports and functions to councils and their elected representatives. I thank the members of the Seanad Public Consultation Committee, including the Cathaoirleach, who worked on this. The committee gave a lot of time to come up with its report. We did not give it enough debate and examine it in enough detail, considering the amount of work that went into it, but we are doing so now. I welcome that a task force will be established.

I thank the Oireachtas Library and Research Service for its impeccable work on this issue. We initiated a scoping report exercise and asked the service to come up with a document. I recommend that everyone get a copy of it before leaving the House today. The service reviewed local government functions from 1993 to 2024. We needed to ascertain facts as to how many powers had been taken back, including under Part 8 of the Planning and Development Regulations 2001 to 2015, and how central government has more and more dragged back certain powers. I recommend the report because it is highly resourced, factual and full of integrity. Everyone should read it.

The report touched on a key measure that I hope the task force will examine, which is sources of income. As we know, there are four key sources of income for local government, namely, Government grants and subsidies, goods and services, commercial rates and the local property tax. We need to re-examine that situation. If we do not address financing for local government, we are going nowhere. I hope the task force will examine and seek to implement the 25 recommendations in the report. There is no point in revolving the wheel here. I thank the AILG, the Local Authority Members Association, LAMA, and other organisations for the various reports the Minister of State mentioned, which are important.

I am an advocate for all councillors but I am particularly an advocate for Independent councillors. I remind the Minister of State, not that he needs a reminder, that there are 193 Independent councillors serving in local government. They do not have party headquarters or the same resources as other councillors have. I hope that will be reflected in terms of the membership of the task force.I do not know but I have heard suggestions and rumours about some of the people who may be on it. I hope it will be an open and transparent process. I strongly recommend people of experience like Noel Dempsey, one of the most reforming Ministers for local government we had in my lifetime. I would also like for Senators in this House who have vast experience in local government or Senators who made a huge input into the committee to be considered.

I will flag some issues that are important because time is running out. I would like the task force to have a look at the following issues, namely, the full implementation of the Moorhead report; improved remuneration for all councillors; ending the 20-year cut-off date for gratuity; the possibility of a pension for councillors; increased vouched expenses - it is vouched expenses for which I am advocating; and expand the capacity of local government to deliver efficient services. The Minister of State will be aware of the constitutional provisions under Article 28A of the Constitution. That is an important factor that should be borne in mind by the task force; ultimately, councillors have an electoral mandate.

I ask that the task force look at a number of issues because they are important. I ask it to look at the AILG and LAMA reports. I ask it to look at the auditing powers of local authorities and the need for proper accountancy for and accountability of auditors. I have heard of council meetings where they have dealt with auditor's reports in five minutes. The manager said there is nothing to worry about lads, move on, and it was rubber-stamped. That cannot happen. I am calling for a separate audit committee every year to review the auditors recommendations publicly. I ask for the reform of the joint policing committees, JPCs. As a matter of fact, I saw an article this morning in The Connacht Tribunethat was published on 26 May with the headline "Government slammed for ‘mess’ of replacing JPCs.". Little progress has been made and a number of councillors are cited in it. I will send the Minister of State a copy.

We need to look at the Part 8 derogation. We also need to look at security allowances for councillors. I understand from a Commencement matter last week in the name of one of the Minister of State's colleagues that he is looking at that and that is good. If we can make a case for security allowances for TDs, we can make a case for the same for others. I hope some of us in this House with experience will be considered eligible and knowledgeable enough to make a contribution to the task force on many issues. It is an important one.

I want the Minister of State to look again at the municipal districts and the area committees. Many of these do not have funding. For example, in Dublin city and county we have area committees. We do not have municipal districts. I will finish on that. I welcome the fact the Minister of State is here. I ask one other thing, which is the Minister of State might look at the local authority administration Bill introduced by the Minister of State, Deputy Troy, and which fell. It was a good Bill and there were many aspects to it. The Minister of State might have a look at that.

Joe Conway (Independent)
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I extend the House's welcome to my Déise Oireachtas colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy John Cummins. Only in the previous two hours, I received an email from one of my councillors but I will not say where. She gave me permission to use part of it in the debate this afternoon. I am using it in anonymised fashion and I will redact some of it. It states:

Dear Senator Conway, thank you for contacting me but this situation has been a real shock to me [she is talking about the lack of remuneration during time off for sickness] and something that left me a bit worried prior to my co-option, even though I took a career break from my permanent, part-time job to ensure I could manage the role. I live with multiple sclerosis - it is 28 years since the diagnosis - so I am an old hack at managing things now. Thankfully, my health is now reasonably stable due to excellent infusions but occasionally, like anyone, I can get chest infections and they tend to hit me hard due to the impact of infusions on my immune system. As yet, I did not have need for any time off work but it does worry me that if I got a severe chest infection or Covid or such, I might need a few weeks off or some extended time off and I would miss essential meetings and thereby be penalised for non-attendance. Additionally, it is not a given that you can stay on certain infusions forever and should I need to change, my health would not be as stable.

People with long term illnesses and conditions deserve to represent constituents in local government along with all other citizens, but should we not be in a position to attend meetings for a period of time due to illness, we would lose out even if appropriate GP certification is available to prove one is on genuine sick leave.

That is not any news to the Minister of State and I was a victim of that myself back when we soldiered together in the council in 2018. This is a stark and gross injustice to councillors. As far as I know, they are the only group of people - employees is not the word - who serve who are so victimised in that they have no redress when they go out on sick leave because, as the Minister of State and I know, their pay is docked if they go under a certain number of attendances. That is hugely unfair. This is not an isolated incident. This happens to dozens of councillors every year. When the Minister of State and I were on the council together, we often used to say to the city and county engineers it is your job to bring us solutions, not excuses. Routinely, governments have stated that councillors are an exceptional case because they are not really employees and it is a representational allowance. That is balderdash.

If there is a will, there is a way. Má tá toil ann, tá slí ann. If the Government wants to fix this tiny problem in the whole fiscal ambit, it can do it more or less at the stroke of a pen. It is time. It is time because hapless councillors are being penalised, year in, year out, not because they have done anything wrong but because they had the misfortune to get sick. That is not acceptable in this day and age.

Sharon Keogan (Independent)
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Hear, hear.

Mary Fitzpatrick (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the Minister of State. I thank him for coming to the House and gabhaim comhghairdeas on his appointment as Minister of State with responsibility for local government. He is an excellent choice for the role, having served as a local authority member and knowing the local authority system as intimately as he does. I have great confidence and ambition for the outcome of his local government task force.

If I was to say nothing else to him today, I would tell him to get on with it more than anything. There are 31 independent local authorities in our country. We have had many reports on our local government system, many of them in the recent past. I am very pleased that in the term of the previous Government between 2020 and 2024, we made significant investment in local government. It was in excess of an additional €2 billion and that is not including the housing budgets. It consisted of the urban regeneration and development fund, URDF, the rates waivers and we made progress on the Moorhead report for the councillors. That is all really welcome but if this local democracy task force is to have any meaning, it must be timebound. It must be well informed with strong representation from the elected members of our 31 local authorities. I believe there should be representatives also from both Houses; the Seanad and the Dáil. Many of us have served at local authority level and now have the privilege to work in the Seanad and the Dáil so we can see it from both sides and contribute to strengthening our local democracy.

Most importantly, the task force should not just make recommendations but in parallel and at the same time, include an implementation plan in the report for those recommendations because urgency is needed. It was my great honour and privilege to have first been elected to serve on Dublin City Council in 2004. It is an enormous privilege to represent your local community. It is an incredible honour to be a voice for the people you live with and the people you get the opportunity to serve. That is in stark contrast to the frustrations of being an elected representative because, as other Members have said, you are the front line. You truly are the front line in the housing crisis, if there is a water crisis, in Covid or if there is a storm. Along with those public servants working in each of our 31 local authorities, local authority members are the front line of our democracy so we need to value them and invest in them. I really believe in the points that have been raised already and agree with the issues around the functioning of the local authorities, the value that is being placed on them, the way the powers have been stripped away - the Library and Research Service have very helpful documented it over a time - but any of us involved in local decisions know that anecdotally.More important, the people we represent know it, because they come to their local authority when there are moments of frustration and disappointment in their communities. They are dismayed when they find out it is not a matter for the local authority or councillor and that it may be a matter of the NTA, the TII, the OPR or any number of anonymous State-funded organisations that our citizens are paying their tax to fund to provide a service but are at such a remove from the lived experience of the citizens we represent. The task force on democracy needs to consider a rebalancing of the powers.

As other Members have said, in rebalancing the powers it must also examine the funding of our local authorities. There is major frustration among local authorities in that they can identify the issues and, more important, the opportunities to solve the problems. Dublin City Council identified many housing solutions. Then there is the matter of the tortuous and glacial pace at which the opportunities are progressed because of the back-and-forth, due diligence, cost-benefit analyses and all the processes that are going on at a pace that is not fit for purpose. People are living in the real world and in the here and now and they want local, national and international government to respond at the same pace as they live their lives. They expect that. It is not an unreasonable expectation.

When I think of the back-and-forth that goes on, I note the CEOs of our local authorities are paid a very fine salary and pension, which local authority members are not paid. We give the latter very significant resources to come up with plans, including development plans, budgets, housing plans, recreation plans, integration plans, parks plans and traffic plans – endless plans – and then we second-guess them. We bring them back and forth and back and forth, not over weeks and months but over years. That is not good enough and we need to see this change. We need to see recommendations in the democracy task force that will include implementation plans for making the changes to make our local government more responsive and agile.

I want to talk about local authority members. It was huge privilege for me to have been elected to represent my local community. It is a huge privilege for any member of a local authority to be elected. After the moment of celebration comes the immediate realisation of the enormousness of the task and the paucity of the resources. Our local authority members – it does not matter if they are Independents, members of Sinn Féin or the Green Party-----

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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All of them.

Mary Fitzpatrick (Fianna Fail)
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-----all put themselves forward for election out of a desire to serve their communities. I do not believe they go forward for any other reason but that. The State needs to support them. Senator Joe Conway described one of our councillors who is suffering with an illness and he said they did nothing wrong. Not only did they not do anything wrong but they did something incredibly generous and great. They gave up their time, talent, energy and life to put themselves forward to serve their local community. At a minimum, when councillors need some help, they should be supported. That is the basic minimum they should be provided with. That they do not get a pension but instead get a gratuity, that the payment of that gratuity is delayed and that it is held in escrow, not gaining anything for them or anybody else for that matter, is inefficient and incompetent and needs to be rectified. Councillors need to be supported with professional services. They need help obtaining independent legal advice and secretarial support, and they need to be equipped to do the job the State is asking them to do. All of them are willing and able and all of them, given the right support, will make an even greater contribution than they are already making.

The Minister of State has our full support. The Fianna Fáil group is delighted to be in a position to be able to contribute. We look forward to working with him and his officials to make the task force successful. As I said earlier, however, we want to see representation from the councillors. AILG and LAMA are the representative bodies and have contributed. I am aware the Minister of State has met their officials but we want to see councillors adequately represented on the task force. We want to see Members from both Houses on the task force and we want to see it time bound. We want to see an implementation plan with the recommendations.

Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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I believe Senators Collins and Andrews wish to share their time.

Joanne Collins (Sinn Fein)
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Yes.

Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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Is that agreed? Agreed.

Joanne Collins (Sinn Fein)
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I welcome the Minister of State. I welcome the progress towards the local democracy task force. My party has long called for more power to be given back to our local elected members. Ireland has the most centralised system of local government in Europe, with limited democratic decision-making powers and insufficient funding and resources for local authorities. While the EU average for tax revenue spent at local level is 23%, in Ireland it is just 8%. Our overly centralised system means far too many decisions are being made by unelected officials. Local councillors are often the backbone of their communities and should be able to reflect the reality on the ground in policy and action.

There has been talk of creating this task force for many years and the lack of progress is very frustrating. Unfortunately, recommendations of the committee have already not been acted upon. It is four months since the Government was established and it was recommended that the task force be up and running within three. Therefore, it is behind and the Government must really put more focus on progressing it once and for all.

We are concerned that the Government proposal focuses only on rebalancing power between the executive and the elected members. The reality is that autonomy has been stripped away from our local authorities and placed back with central government. That imbalance must also be addressed. We encourage the Government to consider this in drafting the terms of reference for the task force.

We also need to ensure membership is fair and balanced so everybody is and feels properly represented. An all-Ireland approach should be taken as we continue planning for and building towards unity. The results of the task force could be long lasting, so it would be good to see thought put into it.

Town councils must be a key focus of the task force. A clear timeline must be produced for their reintroduction. They were an important cornerstone of local democracy that was ripped away by Fine Gael. Citizens, trade unions, local businesses and business associations have been calling for the restoration of town councils. While the town councils of old were not perfect, the solution should have been to reform and rebuild local democracy at town level, not just demolish it. Alongside this, the task force must examine the burden of work undertaken by councillors and the need to consider paying councillors a full-time wage. The Oireachtas has found that councillors spend an average of 32.5 hours working on council work each week. Sinn Féin wants to see greater accountability in local councils. There needs to be a thorough review of local government with a view to increasing powers and responsibilities of both the elected councillors and those who elect them.

We believe local authorities must be reformed. Accountability and transparency must be at the core of what they do. People must be able to access information and we must work to remove the barriers that prevent them from doing so.

The election of the directly elected mayor in Limerick represented good progress, and we need to look at rolling it out further in other cities. In particular, a directly elected mayor of Dublin must be part of the package of reforms that devolve powers from the centre to local government, giving communities more say in how the capital city is run. This would be a big boost for local democracy. The task force needs to focus on real, meaningful ways of decentralising local democracy.

Chris Andrews (Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Minister of State for coming to the House and I wish him well in his job. I have not seen him since his appointment. It is in everyone’s interest that he is successful. I have a couple of observations. I agree with Senator Fitzpatrick that councillors are on the front line. They have their fingers on the pulse of various events and issues that flare up in every constituency. Often, they are the link to the local authority. My local council is Dublin City Council, DCC, and I see the connection between the local councillors and management. In the past four or five years, however, the relationship between councillors and the management in DCC has become increasingly poor. Morale on the council is increasingly poor. As has been said, the money councillors are paid needs to be increased for the hours they put in. While the figure of 32 and a half hours was given, I believe a huge number of councillors do a lot more. It is not a nine-to-five job; they are on call 24-7. They do not get rewarded enough for that.

A few councillors have spoken to me about the morale in DCC and made the point that the housing section of the council is not responding to them. The atmosphere and culture within the staff management is increasingly poor. In fact, one councillor emailed the housing allocations section of DCC a number of times and it has been three weeks since a response was received. Equally, councillors have concerns in respect of the traffic management changes throughout the city. The most recent change is the no-left turn onto Pearse Street, which is causing a lot of difficulty and concerns for people. In the run-up to that change, the management had almost no engagement with local councillors or meetings with residents. They would not facilitate any information meetings with residents.

It is poor that councillors are being treated with disdain. They are the cornerstone of democracy and their role is important. Despite this, in DCC the relationship between councillors and management is increasingly poor. I am not sure if that is the case in all local authorities. While the management says it is a resourcing issue and that it does not have the staff, the staff say it is a management issue. Whatever the reasons are, it must improve. A constituent of one councillor, who also contacted me, had to wait eight weeks to meet a housing adviser. That individual could have been homeless at that stage. It is just not acceptable. While it is not clear whether it is resources, bad management or bad work practice, whatever the reasons are, it is the Minister of State’s job to ensure local authorities work well and respond to the local councillors. They give everything for their local communities. It is very deflating when they are treated so poorly by the management in local authorities. I presume that contributes to a lot of people deciding not to run again in elections. It is about respecting councillors and ensuring that management engages with councillors in a real, genuine and meaningful way rather than just railroading them, which seems to be happening more frequently.

Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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I understand Senators Noonan and Cosgrove are sharing time. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
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I welcome the Minister of State. I would also welcome the establishment of a task force. As other Senators have said, recent research into the role of a 21st-century councillor carried out by the AILG revealed, as any of us who have had the privileged position of being an elected county councillor, as I was for a short time on Sligo County Council, will know, that the role is multifaceted. Councillors work on the front line and have many roles, including advocating for local communities, trying to solve problems, trying to fix things and providing a lot of information. Another key finding of this research - anyone who has been a councillor will be acutely aware of this - is that the role of local councillors is changing and developing. As more complex and technical aspects are added into the role, it is crucial councillors are given the training and support they need. A huge part of that, as has come up in every contribution, is a proper wage. Doing the job of an elected representative on a local authority properly is a full-time job. It is a highly responsible job and should be paid as such. If we expect local councillors to hold the local authority to account, we need to be prepared to pay an adequate wage that will attract top-quality people into the role.

I welcome the recognition in the programme for Government of the need to enhance local authorities’ fiscal autonomy. A large part of that will be through funding and certainty of funding. What I found so frustrating as a new councillor was being dependent on annual Government grants, whether they were for roads, parks or public spaces, which required the local authority to apply for certain grants under various schemes. This approach introduces more bureaucracy which then distracts from the services by the executive which can be offered to the local authority and impacts on the elected members' ability to prioritise and direct how the council is to deliver its services. I cannot understand why there are not certain levels of funding that are directed, particularly for things like play parks or recreational facilities and their upkeep, which needs to be done every so often.

The enhancement of local authorities’ fiscal autonomy is dependent on certainty and stability of this funding. This kind of certainty would led to an increased congeniality among elected members and improve decision-making as priorities can be agreed strategically and with consensus over the course of the life of an elected council rather than resulting in an annual scramble and the distribution of piecemeal projects which reinforces the concept of clientelism and undermines the vision of a 21st-century councillor, as outlined in the AILG report.

Malcolm Noonan (Green Party)
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I welcome the Minister of State and I thank him for his time today. Like other Members, I very proudly served as a local authority member. I spent 16 years on Kilkenny Corporation – that is what I call it – and then Kilkenny County Council after another Kilkenny man decided in 2014 to abolish it, unfortunately. This is the premise of some of the other contributions. Kilkenny had a unique place in Irish history. The first minutes of Kilkenny Corporation date back to 1231, to the Liber Primus Kilkenniensis, and Kilkenny was granted city status by charter in 1609. The abolition was detrimental to the urban authority. While not wanting to look back, when we look at the important future challenges facing local government, such as climate action, the nature restoration plan, active travel, public transport, community policing, sustainable drainage systems, nature-based solutions and all of these broad, big issues with which local authority members must grapple, we need that dedicated tier of urban authority, and a network of them. It is important that once you are part of that network, you are part of a European network that can be tapped into for sharing projects and best practice.

The issue of directly elected mayors has been mentioned. We cannot row back on the commitment. It is working well in Limerick. With regard to the Minister of State’s role, we need to have a directly elected mayor in our capital city. That is absolutely vital. That issue needs to be dealt with by this task force. We need to grapple with that. Currently, our town hall has been ripped out for a tourist attraction. What happens if we decide to reinstate the city council? It is just so unfortunate. We must look at that. Each local authority needs to have in place a dedicated EU unit where it can tap into EU partnership projects and funding.

Sharon Keogan (Independent)
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Hear, hear.

Malcolm Noonan (Green Party)
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That is hugely important. The other thing I worked on in my previous role was dedicated heritage teams. That is starting to roll out, whereby we have archivists, archaeologists, architectural conservation officers, ACOs, and heritage officers. Crucial to all of this, however, and this goes back to the comments other Members have made, is around the role of elected members and the responsibility. Sometimes, bad decisions which are pushed by the executive fall back on local authority members. As we have discussed previously, that element of participative planning and moving out of that token consultation really has to be fundamental to how local authorities work. It makes for better decision making, more inclusion and everybody feeling that their voices have been heard on the issue of the spending of public money. The experience I found. from talking to elected members as I was out on the Seanad campaign trail, was that they feel demoralised. The issue of pay has been mentioned but their workload is really so demanding right now. It is weekdays, weekends, holidays and it is non-stop. We need to look at the other elements of the Moorhead report that have not been grappled with, particularly with regard to that policy-making role and trying to ensure there is a better work-life balance for elected members.

It is important to acknowledge the incredible role that local authorities play in our daily lives, from our library services to our arts and heritage officers. All of that makes a really positive contribution to the daily lives of people that perhaps communities themselves do not realise. Local authority members should feel very proud of the role that they play on a daily basis in ensuring that grants go to local communities and should feel supported in the efforts they are making around community heritage initiatives.

Generally, I welcome the establishment of this task force. I urge the Minister of State to be brave and radical. We need to look at new funding mechanisms for local government and consider the establishment of energy supply companies. Could local authorities be involved in that? There has to be more devolution of revenue-raising powers to local government so that members can feel they have a hand and part in shaping the future of the communities they serve. Collectively we are all agreed here that our local government system is broken. It does fantastic work. Local authority members and staff do fantastic work but there is something fundamentally and deeply flawed when we continually look at taking away more powers, centralising power and having a clientelist system between the executive and councillors who are waiting for scraps from the table in order to make decisions that the executives want to push through. That has to be addressed. The elected members need to feel that their voices are heard, that they are representing their communities and that they have a work-life balance that makes them want to continue in local government. That needs to be at the core of what this task force looks at. Again, I know that the Minister of State has reform at the core of what he is trying to achieve and I urge him to be brave and courageous about it. If we continue the way we are going, we are just not going to attract good people to stand in local elections. That is the real challenge we have, right across the country. The political parties here know that it is very hard to find people because it is a very tough business to be in. There is an awful lot of online abuse and general abuse of local authority members.

We have all had that experience but for me, it was an enriching one in my political career. I was a councillor for 16 years and while I was the only Green in the village for a long time, I still found it to be a very enriching experience. It gives us a political grounding to enable us to come into this Chamber or into the Dáil Chamber to continue our political work on behalf of the communities we serve. I wish the Minister of State well. He has our full support for all of the efforts he has set out over the next number of years.

Fiona O'Loughlin (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister of State for the opportunity to have a discussion on a really important topic that has an impact on all of our lives. 1898 was the year that local government came into being and local councils were set up. My grandfather, Joseph O'Loughlin, was on the very first Kildare County Council. He died when my father was only seven, so we did not know him but 20 years after that, my father was elected to serve. Many years after that I was elected to serve in another area so I can say, with great pride, that three generations of my family served in three centuries. It is because of that background that I learned about how important local democracy is and how important it is to listen to people and be able to bring their concerns and challenges to the office of what was formerly the county manager, now chief executive, to the door of officials and also to the Chamber. We all know that some issues are better dealt with outside of the Chamber.

We have excellent public representatives who represent us right around the country, both party members and Independents. The organisations that serve them deserve mention. AILG, which represents and supports the role of our elected councillors, is a very strong voice for local communities through its work. It has produced two excellent reports, The 21st Century Councillor in Irish Local Government, published in December 2023, and Building Stronger Local Government, which was published in November 2024. We all need to take note of what those reports say. Limerick Councillor Kieran O'Hanlon, the current president of the AILG, and his team do really excellent work. The Local Authority Members Association, LAMA, is also deserving of mention. All of the political parties had meetings with LAMA recently. The Fianna Fáil group had a meeting with Brian Lawlor, Damien Ryan and Michael Anglim from LAMA about two weeks ago. It does a lot of good work. One of the really important things it does is showcase the very best of what happens in local authorities around the country in terms of their national awards. That is something that I would like to see brought here to Leinster House because it is important to showcase good examples and see how we can inspire others.

There is no doubt that local government is not just the cornerstone but the beating heart of our democracy. It is responsible for so many of the essential services that we depend on but it also helps to build communities around libraries, arts centres, playgrounds and leisure facilities, and by facilitating LEOs and all of the work it does with local businesses. Strong local government is absolutely essential for the future of our democracy. I would go further and say that weak local government undermines democracy because that reduces accountability, limits citizen participation and makes it harder for residents to engage with their local representatives. That leads to an inadequate resource distribution. One of the areas that I would really like to see the task force looking at is section 149 of the 2001 Act which provides that every act of the local authority which is not a reserved function is automatically an executive function. Time after time, and I experienced it myself as a councillor, we hear that X is not a reserved function and so it is nothing to do with the councillors. The relationship between management, staff, officials and councillors is important but most certainly we need to empower the councillors in terms of their functions and resources. We need to support them by ensuring they have adequate resources and supports, both financially and in other ways.

The terms of reference are currently under consideration, as is the membership of the task force. It is really important that the task force has members who are also members of local councils, so that they can speak on their behalf. That would probably be best done through the AILG and LAMA. We all voted on the principle of subsidiarity in the context of the Maastricht treaty. That principle is about decisions being made as close to citizens as possible. A rebalancing of power between the elected councillor and the officials and restoring town councils must be a priority.

Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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There are five speakers left and about 15 minutes on the clock, so I propose that each speaker will have three minutes. Is that agreed?

Sharon Keogan (Independent)
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No, it is not agreed. This is a really important debate on the task force.

Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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I know, but I have to bring in the Minister of State at 6.05 p.m.

Sharon Keogan (Independent)
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It is a pity we were only allocated an hour and a half for this debate. If it is agreed, it is agreed.

Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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Is it agreed by the House? Agreed. There are five speakers with three minutes each, including me. I call Senator Lynch.

Eileen Lynch (Fine Gael)
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Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire. It is important that we discuss the local democracy task force today and the important role of local government across the country. The programme for Government recognises that real democracy begins at local level. It was in this spirit that the Seanad's local democracy task force produced its reports. The findings were clear: local government in Ireland is underpowered, under-resourced and in urgent need of reform. Having served as a councillor on Cork County Council from 2019 until February this year, I am acutely aware of the continual erosion of the powers of local representatives since the introduction of the Local Government Reform Act 2014, including the abolition of urban district councils and town councils. I acknowledge and commend the work of our councillors. It is an alleged part-time role that in reality is full time. Too often, the role of councillors is misunderstood or underestimated. They play an instrumental role in delivering housing through local area plans, supporting local communities, advocating for better roads and water infrastructure and providing a voice for many. The programme for Government committed to establishing a task force on local democracy. It is vital this commitment is now implemented. We need to rebalance the relationship between local and central government. Councillors have a large burden of work yet hold less power and authority than many of their European colleagues. They face online abuse and harassment and security concerns but continue relentlessly to represent their localities to a very high standard. We need to provide greater remuneration and support for councillors and ensure they have meaningful autonomy over key areas from housing and climate resilience to economic development and heritage protection. I noticed during the Seanad campaign a great discrepancy in the powers and functions exercised by councillors from local authority to local authority. Some seem to have much greater input into county development plans and local area plans than others. Some local authorities provide discretionary funds for councillors to allocate and others do not. This is not good enough. We need a national conversation, as was mentioned, about subsidiarity. We need to place more trust in our councillors. I ask the Minister to outline a timeline for the establishment and implementation of the local democracy task force as promised in the programme for Government. I ask that it be centred on the lived experience of councillors. We have had enough of reviews and consultations. We need to take action.

Sharon Keogan (Independent)
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I rise not just as a Senator but as someone who, like many Senators, has worked on the front lines of local government. I say without hesitation the treatment of our local government and the continued centralisation of power is a disgrace. Successive Governments, including on the other side of the House and the Green Party, stripped communities of their voices, representation and ability to shape their own futures. It was done in the name of efficiency but we lost democracy. We were promised reform but what we got was centralisation. We need more councillors with more decisions made locally and less power handed to unelected executives. Let us look at one example, which is last year's abolition of joint policing committees. They were perfectly good forms for co-operation between local authorities, elected representatives and An Garda Síochána. In their place, we have been given local community safety partnerships, the roll-out of which has been a mess. Local community safety partnerships are touted as more directly involved with local communities yet they circumvent those same communities' elected and democratically accountable representatives. Our systems are marred by confusion and imbalance. In Ireland, the chief executive is appointed not elected. They make decisions. Councillors, the people's representatives, are left to rubber-stamp budgets and pass motions that can be ignored. That is not democracy; that is a two-tier system where the elected are left to explain decisions they did not make. We could help to rectify this situation tomorrow. For instance, councillors have no access to experienced advisers and we do in the Oireachtas. I propose the appointment of independent legal, planning and financial advisers for all councillors, to be appointed by the council chair every five years. Another inequality in our democracy is the cap on councillors, limiting them to gratuity payments for no more than 20 years of service. No such cap exists in these Houses. Either place on a cap on years of service for all or allow councillors to serve and be recognised for as long as their constituents continue to elect them. This mess and confused half measure must end.

Another issue is the vouched expenses of €4,200. This can be used for admin support. However, it is not enough. It needs to be increased twofold. Even that would give councillors nine hours of administration support per week. It gets worse. Let us also consider the fact, which I have tried to raise in this Chamber for some time, that councillors are not even exempt from commercial rates. Can you believe it? There is no councillor on the Housing Agency yet there are chief executives.

I call on the Government to clarify membership of the local democracy task force and on what basis and criteria its composition will be determined. On this issue, we cannot be treated like mushrooms, kept in the dark and fed manure. I welcome the establishment of the local democracy task force but I say to the Government, be bold. Do not tinker around the edges. Do not give us another report that gathers dust on a shelf. Give us real reform. Restore town councils, empower councillors, rebalance the relationship between elected members and executives and give local government the power it needs to serve the people. Independent councillors are the third-largest elected body. To leave them out would be unwise. Please be inclusive of Independent councillors.

Seán Kyne (Fine Gael)
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I welcome the Minister of State. I wish him well in his endeavours and with the local democracy task force. I acknowledge the work by his predecessors John Paul Phelan, Deputy Peter Burke and senior Ministers on the Moorhead report. We need it fully enacted. I commend representatives of LAMA and the AILG on their work on behalf of elected members lobbying and making representations. Will the Minister of State provide clarity on town councils? I think he said they would not interfere in the workings of the municipal area. There are large towns that a case could justly be made for but there were town councils with a quota for election of 78 and an electorate of 1,000 in 2004. There were also large towns with thousands in population that did not have a town council. Town councils were not fair but that is not to say they would not have a role. There was concern at the time that the areas surrounding the town councils outside the town boundary suffered and did not get their share when there was a strong town council. As the population continues to grow, will councils continue to increase and at what number do they become unwieldy?

The salaries of mayors and cathaoirligh changed in 2014. They need to be looked at again. It is a disincentive to taking up what should be an honourable position. In some cases, they are full-time positions and councillors may have to give up their jobs or cut down hours to take on the role of mayor or cathaoirleach, particularly. I am sure Dubbin City Council and Cork City Council may be different but in other local authorities it is a disincentive. City area chairs in some areas such as Cork city do not get an allowance to chair area meetings. No one has ever raised this issue with me but I have experienced it. It is more of an issue for local authorities but I raise the idea of drivers for cathaoirligh. In a county the size of Galway, someone could be driving from Portumna to Clifden or Carna to Williamstown. He or she is preparing for the next meeting, thinking and may be rushing, within the speed limit, of course. The least cathaoirligh should have is a driver or the option to have one. They may not have to use them every day but perhaps it could be explored in possible reforms. Auto-enrolment for pensions is coming in. Why are councillors not included? Newer members need the certainty of having a set pension.

Sarah O'Reilly (Aontú)
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Local government is the closest form of government to the people. Its finger is on the pulse of what people need. The Minister of State is aware it is under-resourced, underappreciated and overburdened. He should be aware of the previous report that stated that Ireland has one of the most centralised governments in Europe. It is time to reverse the dominance of central government over local government and the dominance of chief executives over councillors. Councillors are crying out for more powers and councils are crying out for more devolved powers.

Councillors should be entitled to decent pensions. The maximum gratuity needs to be increased from 20 years to 30 years, and Departments are micromanaging from Dublin.

This House voted in the past to reduce the powers of councillors. Much to the disbelief and surprise of many of us, it voted against letting us go on JPCs, ETBs and university panels. We need to preserve and increase autonomy for councillors in the local authority system.

Remuneration for councillors needs to be looked at again. The Moorhead report, which I read, does not consider that a councillor’s job is a full-time job. It is a full-time job. It is 24-7, weekends, Christmas Day and Easter Sunday. It is all days.

There needs to be a mechanism for local authorities to be able to raise revenue powers locally. A good functioning democracy is a good functioning local authority.

The Minister of State mentioned the area committee. What are these, and will they be elected? Chief executives are very powerful in councils and they are not elected. Would this be another group of unelected people? I wish to get clarity on that question.

Frances Black (Independent)
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I welcome these statements on the local democracy task force. I was proud to be a member of the Seanad Public Consultation Committee in the previous Seanad. We heard some very powerful testimonies from all over the country, from councillors and local government representative organisations North and South, who work at the coalface of their communities, to party leaders, former Ministers and many different experts in local government. The process was very valuable to us as Senators and members of the committee as we heard from a diversity of voices in the Chamber. From this shared experience and expertise, we were able to create an excellent report, which was published in October of last year. One of the outcomes from those hearings was that the committee agreed to the establishment of this local democracy task force. Also within the report were 25 recommendations. Included in the recommendations were potential support for councillors, changes to powers and functions of local authorities and a review of the financing of local government.

The setting up of this task force and implementation of the recommendations are imperative to help strengthen local government. An area that was highlighted repeatedly within these discussions was the deeply unfair and challenging conditions councillors have to face when trying to serve their communities. Councillors’ roles within representing their communities can be extremely difficult. I know from speaking to councillors, within my capacity as a Senator, the challenges they face day to day without the support they so badly need.

One of the outcomes from the feedback I received from these sessions and that I introduced in November of last year was the Local Government (Support for Elected Members) Bill 2024. The Bill will provide administrative support for elected members of local authorities to assist in the performance of their duties. These supports are long overdue. I call on all Oireachtas Members to support this Bill as it goes through the legislative process within Leinster House.

It is important to keep the governing of communities at a local level to protect decision-making and planning by local councils, and to move away from any type of centralised system or power. It is vital. We need to value the input we received from a range of stakeholders on this topic. It is to be hoped this new task force can help implement all these positive changes to local government functions.