Seanad debates
Tuesday, 20 May 2025
Non-Fatal Offences Against the Person (Amendment) Bill 2024: Committee Stage
2:00 am
Fiona O'Loughlin (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I thank the Minister, Deputy O'Callaghan, for coming to the House to take this Stage of the Bill. There are a few people I wish to thank for bringing this Bill to fruition. First, my former colleague and Senator, Lisa Chambers, who put a lot of work into this Bill. It first appeared under her and my name but she was the lead on it and it is important at this point to thank her for that work. I thank all the people who contacted me, particularly in the past three months, regarding the absolute necessity to have catfishing as an offence in its own right. We are all familiar with the anecdotes, especially when The 2 Johnnies aired their podcast, which was fascinating listening and I listened to it myself. It is time we stepped up and took this seriously.
There were several people who contacted me and I spoke to them at length. The impact of the catfishing they endured on both an emotional and financial level has been absolutely huge. One particular lady lost €250,000 during Covid, has moved jurisdictions and has been in a very difficult situation both emotionally and financially. Sometimes we think of catfishing in just the romantic sense, but a young man, Seán McNicholas, went to the trouble of sending me a study and survey he had done relating to understanding the issue of catfishing and sports participants. It is very interesting reading. He has given me permission to use his name. I am also happy to send it on to the Minister's Department. He did a lot of work and a really big survey on the impact of catfishing within the sports world, and it is quite shocking to read.
We have agreed at every level that we want to take catfishing seriously. We are very conscious, as in so many areas relating to the online world, of our young people in particular. It is important to send a strong message to society that catfishing will not be tolerated. At this time it is and anybody can go online and create a false identity for themselves. Obviously, in situations where fraud has been carried out, there is other legislation that can deal with that, but in many instances it is very difficult to find the perpetrator. In several cases where I have spoken to victims, they have gone to the trouble and expense of hiring private investigators to try to find the individuals. In some cases, they were able to find IP addresses and in others they were not. It is basically throwing more money after more money after more money.
Catfishing is used to deceive, lure and manipulate and leads to blackmail and financial exploitation. We are familiar with the horrific situation of McCartney in Newry who is now, thankfully, behind bars. He catfished young girls all around the world to the extent that one young girl in America, while only 12 years of age, took her own life and, 18 months later, her father took his own life. There is a lot of damning evidence out there and I believe we should use our powers as legislators to ensure we keep people safe in every way possible. I have discussed this with the Minister and I appreciate his support. I have also spoken to officials within the Department and we have agreed there will be a period of time where the Department will dig deep into the possibility of unintended consequences. We want to ensure we have robust legislation that will go on our Statute Book. I have agreed to this and we will continue communications with the Minister's office and the Department. I certainly look forward in the not-too-distant future to being able to bring this to Final and Report Stages here in the Seanad.
I thank the Minister once again for his support.
Nicole Ryan (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I welcome the opportunity to speak on this Bill which addresses the growing and deeply concerning issue of catfishing. Sinn Féin welcomes the debate on this Bill and believes this conversation is welcome. It is not just timely but also necessary. I thank Senator O'Loughlin for bringing it to this House today.
Catfishing, at its core, is deception. It is when someone steals another person's images or identity to create a fake persona online, often to trick, exploit or defraud others. While it begins with a messaging or dating app profile, it frequently escalates to financial fraud, emotional manipulation and, in some cases, even coercive control. This is not harmless online behaviour. It is calculated, predatory and can destroy people's lives. As Senator O'Loughlin said, we have seen headlines from high-profile GAA players who have been impersonated, vulnerable people who have been scammed out of thousands of euro and individuals left traumatised after discovering a relationship they believed was real never actually existed. Behind each headline, however, is a human who has been betrayed, humiliated and sometimes left to pick up the pieces.
The Minister pointed out there is current legislation which covers some of these aspects through harassment laws, fraud legislation and Coco's Law. While these laws are welcome, we cannot ignore that catfishing is a distinct and emerging form of harm. It does not just fit neatly into our current legislation. Victims are sometimes left without a clear path to justice and that is why we believe there is a strong case being made today to have this as a stand-alone offence. It sends a clear message that online deception is not just morally wrong but also legally wrong. It would give An Garda Síochána and the courts the clarity they need when investigating and prosecuting these offences and would give victims the recognition they deserve. Of course, legislation is only one part of the solution. We must ensure gardaí have the resources, training and digital expertise to investigate these crimes properly. We also need a stronger public education campaign around online safety and reporting mechanisms that are easy to access and are victim-centred.
We support this Bill. It is fantastic and much needed. We must ensure our justice system can respond to this form of abuse for people and ensure nobody gets to hide behind a screen when they are destroying people's lives.
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I thank the Minister for coming to the House today. I wholeheartedly support Senator O'Loughlin's Bill. Catfishing, as we know, is a growing problem in our digital age where individuals create fake online identities to deceive others, often for financial gain, emotional manipulation or even more serious criminal purposes.It is not a frivolous or harmless activity, as we sometimes may think because of the name catfishing. We need to normalise the term "online impersonation" and attach it to criminality. It is insidious and victims can suffer deep emotional trauma, financial loss and long-term psychological effects.
Despite the serious consequences, the current laws are often outdated or do not go far enough to hold the offenders to account. I think that is where Senator O'Loughlin's Bill will step up. We need stronger, clearer legislation to address this issue head on. This includes defining catfishing as a punishable offence, increasing penalties for impersonation and fraud and giving the Garda better tools to investigate and prosecute online deception. It is not about limiting free speech or online anonymity. It is about protecting people from abuse, exploitation and manipulation. By tightening our laws through Bills like this, we send a clear message. As has been said, online deception harms others. It is not just unethical; it is indeed illegal.
Lorraine Clifford-Lee (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I commend Senator O'Loughlin on introducing this Bill. It is essential in this day and age that we have effective laws to combat very serious crimes. Previous speakers have outlined the emotional, physical and financial risks of catfishing. However, emotional damage is also done through catfishing. I have spoken to some people who were catfished and they pointed to the loss of trust in people and the loss of trust in doing anything online. Our lives are becoming increasingly online. When dealing with a bank or a shop we have bought from, we are communicating online. People who have been catfished feel that their trust in any form of digital communication has been blown out of the water, which makes it very difficult to operate in society. This is really timely legislation to come before the House.
I am also a victim although not quite of catfishing. Somebody took my identity, formed an identity online and pretended to be me online. The harm that did to me and my family was shocking. People need to realise that it is not some harmless fun. There are real impacts on people, and real consequences should follow those impacts. I commend Senator O'Loughlin and the Minister, Deputy O'Callaghan, on taking this legislation. I know Senator O'Loughlin will work with the Department to strengthen this. I hope it will be enacted in very short course because we need to have modern laws to deal with modern crimes.
Victor Boyhan (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I welcome the Minister to the House and I thank him for coming as the lead Minister in the Department. I thank Senator O'Loughlin for pursuing this Bill. I fully agree with the four previous speakers. There is no point in repeating ourselves in these Houses. Let us keep the clarity and keep it simple. I fully concur with everything said. I also thank the departmental officials. While Deputy O'Callaghan is the Minister and that is great, a lot of work goes on behind the scenes in supporting him in his work. I look forward to hearing his contribution. I am glad to see he has a script but he has loads of additional notes in pen. I would expect nothing less of him. Clearly, he is engaging which is in line with his style of engaging and modus operandi. The Minister is very welcome. I congratulate Senator O'Loughlin on the work, drive, commitment and enthusiasm she has shown to see this important legislation through the House.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I commend and thank Senator O'Loughlin for bringing forward Committee Stage of this important legislation. Like her, I also recognise the work of former Senator Lisa Chambers who played a significant role in initiating the legislation and bringing it through Second Stage in this House. When we consider what has happened in our society over the past 20 years, the real change has been the establishment of the digital sphere. If we were looking at this back in the eighties or nineties, we would not really know what we are talking about here. It has had a transformative impact on all our lives. Much of the online activity has been positive, with the access to information and the ability to communicate with people so quickly.
Unquestionably, something that is so dramatic has also had negative consequences. Some of the negative consequences are related to fraud and harassment. Senator O'Loughlin will agree with me that at the heart of catfishing there is a fraud and an element of harassment. I take on board what Senator Comyn said about some people being not sure what catfishing means. It might be worthwhile if, when we are discussing it, we indicate the mischief behind it and what we are trying to regulate and, more importantly, outlaw. There are a number of victims involved. There is the individual victim who is deceived into an emotional or financial relationship. As Senator Clifford-Lee indicated happened in her case, there is the person whose identity is appropriated. There are two individuals who are affected by this and are victims of it.
We should consider the other legislation we have. We have the non-fatal offences against the person legislation that deals with harassment. We have theft and fraud offences legislation that deals with fraud. However, we do not have anything specific governing the issue Senator O'Loughlin wants to regulate and outlaw. Further work needs to be done in respect of this to ensure we are protecting people from this fraudulent and harassing activity.
As Senator Boyhan stated, I have great support within the Department. When legislation comes in, the view of politicians is to instinctively say we support it or we do not support it. From Senator O'Loughlin's point of view, it is important that she has the support of Senator Nicole Ryan and everyone else here in the House in respect of the legislation. When departmental officials look at it, they need to consider if it is replicating existing legislation and what the effect of it will be.
Obviously, neither Senator O'Loughlin nor anyone else in the House wants to see any unintended consequences. We greatly appreciate her agreement to allow the Department to take some time to assess it and consider it carefully. I am sure she does not want us to enact something very fast which has the unintended consequence of something we are not aware of at present.
As Senator Boyhan said, I have excellent officials in the Department of Justice. They will give the Bill very thorough consideration. We need some time to assess it and consider it. As Senator O'Loughlin will be aware, clearly we need to ensure we have protection in place or will put protection in place for individuals who are the subject of this fairly odious behaviour.
I do not want to take up too much or of Senators' time; they have heard enough of me in this House for one day.
Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
No, we are always delighted to have the Minister here.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I commend the House on its consideration of the legislation. We have got through Committee Stage promptly. I will now go off to consider it with officials and we will remain in contact with Senator O'Loughlin.
Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
When is it proposed to take Report Stage?