Seán Kyne (Fine Gael)
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I welcome to the House the Minister for Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth, Deputy Norma Foley. The Minister will have ten minutes, group spokespersons will have ten minutes and all other Senators will have five minutes.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the opportunity to discuss in the Seanad today the issue of early learning and childcare. The Government recognises the importance of early learning and childcare services to society and to the economy. Most importantly, we recognise the importance of the service to the thousands of children and families they serve every day. This is very clear in the programme for Government. On this note, I was pleased to be part of the negotiating team for the programme for Government. I am pleased with the commitments that have been made very specifically to the area of early learning and childcare.

Backed by record increases in investment over the term of the previous Government, early learning and childcare in Ireland have been transformed in recent years. In particular, there has been significant progress in the areas of affordability for parents, pay for educators and practitioners and, in particular, the inclusion of children with disabilities and children who experienced disadvantage. This is very important. I intend to build on this progress in the years ahead.

I recognise that we need to go further to support parents, educators, practitioners and providers throughout the early learning and childcare sector, with the focus always being on ensuring that children who utilise the service have the very best of, and positive, experiences. The pathway to developing the sector was set out in Partnership for the Public Good, the report of the expert group agreed by the Government in 2021. The key theme of this report was the need to strengthen State involvement in the sector through greater levels of public management, accompanied by greater levels of public funding. Significant reforms have been delivered since then and they provide a solid foundation for the next stage of development by the Government. The core funding scheme was introduced in 2022. Now in its third year, €331 million will be invested in the sector through the scheme to deliver improved pay for educators and practitioners, to control parental fees and to support providers. The scheme has been key to starting to unlock some of the long-standing challenges specific to the sector.

The joint labour committee, JLC, process has seen the agreement of two rounds of employment regulation orders, EROs, establishing new minimum rates of pay for staff at various grades supported by core funding. This has resulted in pay increases for a large cohort of staff in the sector. However, and I want to be clear about this, I recognise that we need to build on this to ensure that qualified staff are attracted and retained, and that more needs to be done in this area. With regard to progressing this, an additional €15 million is being made available from September, the equivalent of a €45 million investment in a full year, to support the agreement of a third round of employment regulation orders by the joint labour committee for the purposes of staff wages. It is my absolute desire that the full €45 million will be used for this purpose alone.

The national childcare scheme has increased subsidy rates paid to parents which, along with fee controls under core funding and other reforms of the scheme, are delivering much greater affordability for parents. This is important. Recent data from the OECD shows low-income households in Ireland now pay at or below the OECD average for early learning and childcare for the first time. Again, I accept that out-of-pocket costs for some parents remain far too high, in particular for parents with three or more children.

The access and inclusion model, AIM, has already been extended to children in the preschool programme outside of preschool hours in term and out of term. This is making an enormous difference to the lives of children with a disability. Further extensions of the access and inclusion model for younger children and school-going children are now being considered and I would like to see that move forward. Equal start - akin to the DEIS model we have in our schools - has also been introduced to support inclusion of children from disadvantaged backgrounds in early learning and childcare. Services with a priority designation under equal start are now in receipt of funding for additional staff hours. They can be used to support engagement between the services and families, services and other child and family support services, training in inclusive practices and to support other educators and practitioners in the provision of early learning and childcare to children with higher levels of need. An additional nutrition programme will be rolled out in these services from September.

The expansion of regulations to allow for access to the subsidy schemes by families who use registered childminders was also achieved late last year, fulfilling commitments in the national action plan for childminding. I hope to see childminder registration numbers gather pace in this three-year transition period until September 2027, before registration becomes mandatory. During the transition period, the Department is providing supports at local level through the city and county childcare committees. The childminding development grant provided by the Department is open for applications until 4 April.

The expert group report also made several recommendations regarding the role of the State in the sector to enable greater public management. It called for the State to play a larger role in capacity planning and developing the sector to align with need, as well as examining the introduction of public provision to complement private provision. These are areas where some progress has been made but we need to step up our efforts. The programme for Government builds on the initiatives in recent years since the publication of Partnership for the Public Good and provides the impetus now to go much further and deliver on that mandate.

Last year, a supply management unit was established in the Department and the programme for Government articulates an intention that the unit be resourced and transformed into a forward planning and delivery unit to identify areas of need, forecast demand and deliver public supply within the early learning and childcare sector where required. This is a positive step forward. We would effectively have a forward planning unit so that, at the earliest possible moment, we could seek to gather what the needs might be in specific areas across the country. The unit is developing the forward planning models to assist in identifying where unmet need or demand and areas of low supply exist. The model will be central to the Department's plans to achieve the policy goals set out in the programme for Government to build an affordable, high-quality, accessible early learning and childcare system with State-led facilities adding capacity.

For the first time, the programme for Government also commits to providing capital investment to build or purchase State-owned facilities to create additional capacity in areas where unmet need exists. The point of this – and I want to be clear on this – is to provide additional capacity. It is to complement what might already be there. State ownership of early learning and childcare facilities is a substantial and significant shift in the policy direction the Department has pursued heretofore. It offers the potential for much greater scope to influence the nature and volume of provision available and to ensure better alignment with estimated demand.

Importantly, we are committing to progressively reduce the cost of early learning and childcare to €200 per child in the lifetime of this Government. My officials are examining this ambitious commitment and exploring approaches to achieve this objective most effectively. I look forward to working with them on these proposals and I know that is important to this Chamber also. We are very much in the planning phase for what I anticipate will be an exciting number of years to come. Core to this planning will be engagement with stakeholders across the sector.

The programme for Government outlines the intention to undertake a broad consultation ahead of publishing a detailed action plan to build an affordable, high-quality, accessible early learning and childcare system with State-led facilities adding capacity. This plan will enhance parental choice through ongoing support for public, private and community provision, as well as childminders. I look forward to updating this House on the action plan as it develops.

Seán Kyne (Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister. Our next speaker is Senator Alison Comyn, who has ten minutes. I advise Senators we are tight on time so please ensure we stick to the allocated times.

Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Cathaoirleach and an tAire. I will be sharing my time equally with an Seanadóir Lorraine Clifford-Lee.

Seán Kyne (Fine Gael)
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Is that agreed? Agreed.

Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister for taking the opportunity to hear our statements on childcare. When I was knocking on doors last year during the election campaign, we heard time and again from young families and workers about the struggle for good, affordable childcare. We also heard about the cost of fees, early years in childcare waiting lists and staff shortages.We all know there are several areas of the country where early years and school-age childcare places are at a premium and in huge demand. This is impacting on parents’ working arrangements, careers and incomes. It is encouraging, as the Minister outlined, that many of the issues are being addressed in the programme for Government, with Fianna Fáil set to reduce parents' fees to €200 per month, establish a national childcare price register to ensure transparency in fees for parents and continue to increase pay for childminders and early years educators through the employment regulation order instrument. A sum of €69 million has been allocated between 2023 and 2025 to the early learning and childcare sectors under the revised national development plan. Tús maith leath na hoibre.

When I was a working mum, I was blessed that when they were young, both of my children were so well looked after in the Peter Pan crèche in Drogheda, County Louth. They have happy memories. Just recently, we spoke about one staff member who made an impact, especially on my son and some of the other young lads. Of all the fantastic women who cared for the children, one young man, Alan, came to work for a time and apparently, he made a huge difference to the dynamic in the crèche.

We have all begun vital conversations on the messages boys and young men are receiving in the current era following the airing of the Netflix drama, "Adolescence". Terms like "the manosphere" and "toxic masculinity" are suddenly in all our vocabularies. The need for healthy male role models in children's lives has never been more important. Where better place to start than with the early years? Sadly, a large percentage of children have little contact with men and some do not have a positive male role model or presence in their lives.

We hear a lot about gender balance, employment equality and inclusion in Ireland these days. Thankfully, these are not just buzzwords anymore. Kids growing up learn now that girls can do anything that boys can do and of course it should be vice versa. In the workplace, women are encouraged to aim high, achieving just as much, if not more, than their male colleagues. However, there is one sector where gender equality still lags far behind, namely, early years childcare. While children are growing up in a society that is focusing more and more on equality issues, many of those in full daycare are left in a situation where they have no contact with men between 8 a.m. and 5 p.m. Having gender balance in a play setting can be a great support to children of lone parents. Even though mums, grannies and grandads do mighty work, the difference a man can make in a parenting role can be immense.

Back in 1996, the European Commission network on childcare set a goal that by 2020 at least 20% of childcare workers would be male. Fast-forward to now and in Ireland that number is closer to just 1%. Childcare is still overwhelming seen as women's work. It is not just an Irish issue. In the UK, approximately 3% of childcare workers are men. Even in Norway, which is often praised for gender equality, the figure stands at just 10%. Breaking down deep-rooted social stereotypes is proving to be a real challenge. The benefits of having more men in early childcare are well documented so why is this profession seen to be women's work? One reason is cited as poor pay and working conditions. If that is putting men off working in the sector, it shows that it must be improved for women. I would like to see a campaign to attract young men into this profession, be it through community employment, CE, schemes to get them started or enhanced tertiary courses. This would need to work in tandem with improving working conditions in the early years sector which is something we are all working hard to achieve. These people do such important work and deserve to be paid in a way that reflects that hard work and dedication.

With all this talk of toxic masculinity, it is high time for more positive male role models. We need to elevate them and celebrate them. Encouraging more men into this career in childcare would go a long way to improve that narrative.

Lorraine Clifford-Lee (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister for coming to the Seanad to talk about this important issue. She is going to do well in this role. It complements her previous role as Minister for Education because the education of children is on the same spectrum.

As the Minister outlined, there has been unprecedented investment in early years education over the past number of years. Childcare fees for parents have been slashed. Investment in pay and conditions and support for early years education has been unprecedented as well. The educators are getting the support that they deserve. The statement the Minister made relating to State-owned facilities promised in the programme for Government is important. I have been calling for this for years.We need to move to a publicly funded childcare model. The Minister said this is to complement existing childcare facilities, and of course we will have to operate a hybrid model, but this public investment in facilities within communities is to be welcomed. The Minister said this is to deliver in areas where there is unmet need, and let me tell you, in north County Dublin there is unmet need for childcare. Unprecedented numbers of houses are being built but we do not have the childcare facilities. Quite simply, builders make a bigger profit from building and selling houses. Obviously, Government policy is to deliver houses and we all support that, but we need to build communities alongside housing. When couples are buying their houses in new communities, whether in north County Dublin or in other areas, they do so with the expectation that they will be able to live their lives, that they will be able to continue their jobs and pay their mortgages. When they get to a point where they have a child, however, the waiting lists are too long for the very few childcare facilities available within a particular area. Often these childcare facilities do not take children under the age of two. That then requires somebody in the household, primarily women, to give up their jobs because they can only take up to a maximum of a year off after having a child. That brings a whole host of problems. That is not something that should be supported or encouraged by a lack of public policy around providing facilities to offer childcare places for children under the age of two.

I would like to see the Minister address this because people need to be able to access childcare that is suitable for their family and when it suits them. Many people take a number of years off with their children and that is supported. If women want to return to work before their child is aged two, however, there are very few options available and it creates a huge headache. We have to look at an holistic approach with the issues coming down the line with population growth. We need to be able to support families, support people to have the number of children they want to have, and support families through a whole host of issues. If people are finding it hard to access childcare for their first child, they are not exactly encouraged to go on to have a second and third. This needs to be looked at from an all-government point of view.

What the Minister is doing is very welcome. I look forward to that public investment. The childcare fees coming down to €200 over the lifetime of this Government would be fantastic and is to be welcomed. I support my colleague, Senator Alison Comyn, on the role of men working within childcare. My own two children were lucky to go to a fantastic crèche that had some male early years educators who a huge impact on their lives. We need to encourage more men into the sector. There is probably an issue with low pay in the sector. Low pay generally attracts women. It is a whole balancing act we need to get right. We need to increase the wages for everybody in the sector because they are doing such valuable work and to encourage men into it.

Another issue came up yesterday. A childcare provider within my constituency contacted me. It is very difficult to get work permits for people to work in early years education if those workers are from outside of the European Union. The Minister said the issue of attracting people into the industry is impeding childcare facilities in expanding places. If that could be looked at, it would go a long way to creating extra capacity within the system.

I wish the Minister the best of luck. There is a big body of work ahead. A lot of work was done over the lifetime of the previous Government. I support the core funding that was brought in by the previous Minister. There has been unprecedented investment into the sector, but we now need to bring it to the next level.

Tom Clonan (Independent)
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The Minister is very welcome to the House and I thank her for being here. I want to make a few general points about early and preschool education in Ireland. We are both former teachers. I was a primary school teacher back in the 1980s, briefly. In fact, I would say that I have not really worked since. It is a very tough job. Philosophically, we all accept that the State should provide education for children at primary level, from junior infants and senior infants right through, and at second level. The State supports tertiary and higher education. State involvement in preschool and early learning is a "no-brainer", to quote George Lee. The Minister and I and everybody else here knows that by the time a child is 18 months old, all of the software has been installed and they are hardwired to be good citizens and to self-actualise. Those crucial years from birth to preschool are actually the most critical period. As Senators Comyn and Clifford-Lee have said, the sentient interactions they have with adults, male and female, at that point, where they may be coming from households that are chaotic, under pressure or stressed, have a hugely positive impact. We should see preschool and childcare not as a commodity or a for-profit exercise but as something that should, ultimately, be the responsibility of the State.

According to the OECD, Ireland has the second-highest childcare costs in the OECD. I have four children who came in quite close succession and, before they went to school, we were paying €900 per child per month. It was a monthly bill of €3,600 just to be able to go out to work. One would have to earn €7,200 to generate that amount of income. It is very tough for families and particularly for women. My colleagues here pointed out that in Ireland this is often constructed as a very gendered issue. We saw some of that rhetoric around the care referendum last year, where it was constructed as being the responsibility of women. It is not; it is an all-of-society issue. If we want to continue our economic success given the new challenges which confront us, we have to do everything in our power to encourage women to get into the workplace.

To that end, one can look at the cost of childcare in other European cities. In Dublin at the moment the average is €1,300 per month per child. It is almost like a one-child policy. I do not know who could afford that. In the awful calculations, we were just about able to have four children at €3,600 per month, but if it is €1,300 per month for one child, what does one do with the rest one's salary? One squanders it on food, I imagine. In Dublin, the cost per child is €1300 per month; in Berlin the average is between €150 and €400 per month; in Paris the average is €400 per month; in Madrid it is €100 to €300 per month; in Brussels it is €400 per month; and in Copenhagen it is about €200 per month, and that is the case throughout the Nordic countries. They are societies which have decided that it is in the strategic interests of their economy and well-being to support childcare.

I would favour an école maternelle system like they have in France. It is a uniform system across the school campus whereby children and babies come in and have those sentient interactions during the day. To be honest, when one looks back at our history as human beings, with the gemeinschaft of agrarian economies and our Celtic background, when a baby was born, one had an extended family to look after it. One had all sorts of people to give advice and support. It is only in the latter half of the 20th century that people, and it is mostly women, are bringing a child home from a maternity hospital into a house somewhere in a suburb and they are completely on their own. That is really tough. They do not have anybody to hand the child to when the child becomes upset or if they need a break. They do not have somebody to tap them on the shoulder to say that they know what that cry is, it is wind, and so on. I know this might sound facile but there is a huge amount of social pressure on women to stay at home and look after children on their own. That is actually unnatural, however. What happens in preschool and early childcare and all of that actually replicates that gemeinschaft model of looking after children which we had in our past and it is a more natural and rounded way to do it.I have become aware that a lot of crèches around the city and around the country will not take babies. They will not take children under one year of age. That really puts people under pressure. People get grandparents involved, if they are lucky enough to have grandparents who live close enough, to provide assistance

Our experience of childcare, as a family, has been absolutely superb. That is echoed by some of my colleagues. At the age of 18 months, one of my children's developmental milestones started to go backwards and he was diagnosed with a complex neuromuscular condition. The crèche did everything in their power to include him in the heart of the crèche. Without having to be prompted, they made all of the necessary adjustments to make it completely accessible and inclusive for him. In other areas of our journey we have had to fight for everything. That was the one area where we did not have to fight. The early childcare providers' representative groups are pushing for greater professionalisation in that area and more support. It is something that I support and it is consistent with our family's experience.

I wish the Minister well. One of her predecessors - maybe it was Brian Lenihan - introduced the first measures that gave us subsidies. We benefited from those for our youngest child. We are very appreciative of that. I know the Minister will continue that great work and great legacy over the next five years. As Senator Clifford-Lee said, if it could be reduced to €200 per month over the lifetime of this Government, we would be consistent with best practice throughout Europe. I know the Minister is committed to that. I wish her the best of luck in that endeavour.

Seán Kyne (Fine Gael)
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I understand that Senator Nelson Murray is sharing time with Senator Ní Chuilinn.

Linda Nelson Murray (Fine Gael)
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Yes. I will take six minutes and Senator Ní Chuilinn will take four minutes.

Seán Kyne (Fine Gael)
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Is that agreed? Agreed.

Linda Nelson Murray (Fine Gael)
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It is fantastic to be splitting my time with Senator Ní Chuilinn. I also have a contribution from Senator Lynch, who cannot be here today.

The definition of "childcare" is the care of children, especially by a crèche, nursery, or childminder, while parents are working. I found a lovely quote which says that children are not a distraction from important work; they are the important work. Thank you for allowing us to use our voices today. I always say I am very privileged to stand here and use my voice, but that is especially the case on the important issue of childcare. I am a mam of two girls. I have first-hand experience of what it is like out there trying to source childminding while two parents work. I am blessed that in my own circumstances we have grandparents who can help us out a lot and I have a wonderful husband.

Childcare providers across our country are dealing with massive financial pressure and a bureaucracy of regulations that are impacting the sector dramatically. Independent providers have no entitlement to maternity leave. Their job is not recognised by financial institutions in some instances, which it makes it difficult for them to apply for a loan or mortgage. Many of these providers have degrees in childcare. Some do not and family friends or relatives help out. They are providing one of the most important services in our country.

As a mother, I know how difficult it is to find childcare. In the village where I live, there is no crèche, and the school does not run a breakfast club or after-school care. It is very difficult to find childcare. The town I am from, Navan, has hundreds of people on waiting lists for crèche facilities. These people are trying to get through the huge burden of the cost of living by going out to work, but they cannot find places for their children. One lady I spoke to was on extended leave from work as she simply could not find anybody to look after her newborn. As my colleague has said, it is really hard to get babies looked after. Maybe that particular sector needs to be worked at in terms of wages and costs. That lady had to register her child at a few months old into a preschool in another village. She is also registering the child in the school in the other village, and not in the village she lives in, simply because that school links in with the local crèche facilities. She will have to travel eight miles a day when the child goes to school, which is such a pity. As people will know, it is a pity when a child comes home from their school and they have to play with kids from another school.

A few weeks back for International Women's Day we made statements in the Seanad. I asked a friend of mine who is a GP what she would like to ask for in women's health. The answer was, simply, more childcare. I was expecting a medical answer, but she put it simply that by allowing women to go to work, go out and exercise, go to the gym and meet friends socially, this would really help their mental health. One of the big issues that I imagine will be discussed here today is the core funding model. In return for signing up to this model, which was established three years ago, operators had to commit to a fee freeze. Providers were also required to comply with requirements to meet various staffing levels and regulations that they would say resulted in increased costs and more monitoring of their businesses. There is no doubt there are many positives with this scheme and the Minister is doing an incredible job trying to give more money in this funding model. I believe 90% of providers are signed up to it. These childcare providers are trying to run viable businesses - I know what it is like to run a business – but they have significant State intrusion without the State financial support to back it up. I am business owner, not in the childcare sector but in the play centre and leisure sector, and have first hand experience of the enormous cost of running a business.

I spoke to Rosaleen, a childcare provider, today as I knew we were going to have a great opportunity to speak to the Minister. I will pass on some of the notes I got from the provider. She said staffing is going to be a massive issue and many childcare centres are unable to replace staff who leave for positions with better pay and conditions. The lady I spoke to this morning is losing a good few staff to Aldi and Lidl, which pay more than the €13.65 she offers her staff. This morning she hired her tenth Spanish member of staff because she is finding it harder to get Irish staff. She explained the situation to me. She said one member of staff is needed for three babies. The parents pay €175 per week in fees for a baby. Multiply that by three and we get €525. If we multiply the hourly wage of a staff member by 11 hours per day and five days per week we get €750.75. If we take the core funding for year 3 of €1.86 per hour and add that to the parents’ fees, this particular crèche is left, after all that, with €81 per week to pay for rent, rates, heat, insurance, high chairs, food, etc. Owners are suffering from high levels of stress and burnout. Larger issues like meeting the diverse needs of children with additional needs are creating further challenges such as access to resources and waiting times for assessment.

Strenuous regulation and administration is also placing a massive demand on providers to monitor regulations and are of course costing money. In light of our debate today, I also spoke to Elaine Dunne of the Federation of Early Childhood Providers. She gave excellent insight, as one can imagine, into the issues while also recognising the amount of money that has been given to the sector. She has raised points about core funding and changing the payment of fees structure such that centres historically unable to apply for core funding would be allowed to apply. She and representatives of other centres raised the serious issue of the Pobal portal. First of all, the calculator has gone off the site. I am not sure whether the Minister is aware of that. It was mentioned by Rosaleen as well. There are also numerous system errors that make the system overcomplicated and unworkable. Providers are asking for a complete system overhaul. They have raised the issue of pay for their staff during the summer. What are they to do? It is similar to the bus escorts for special schools who do not get paid during the summer. A suggestion I thought was super was about how the childcare sector could help with the July provision. Apparently many providers have said they could do this and it could really help with the demand for that service. They would get paid to deliver July provision and this would bring down the waiting lists for the service. Many of these centres used to run camps during the summer, which kept people employed, but, as I am sure the Minister is aware, it has become increasingly difficult to run camps in schools in the summer due to insurance issues. The providers cannot get insurance cover for summer camps.

Something else I felt was important when discussing the issues with these providers is they do not have a stakeholder forum anymore and they want to know when that will be implemented.

I will conclude because I want to give my colleague time. I would like us all to remember what the GP said, which is that for women’s health we need to get more childcare, which in turn will help women. I thank the Minister for today. The forward-planning model she mentioned sounds great. I will finish by saying it needs to be great to help sort out the sector.

Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister for being here. As everybody has said, we are all on the same page, we want improvements and the plans sounds fantastic. If the Minister can provide childcare for €200 per child in the lifetime of the Government, we will all be backing it, that is for sure.

I am going to cut out some of the stuff I was going to say because I am conscious we do not need repetition. I refer to staffing issues in some of these settings. As colleagues have said, there are problems with the core funding model but it is serving a certain need. However, some of the childcare providers are really struggling to hold on to staff. We cannot expect people to go through a four-year degree and then come into a job where they earn one of the lowest wages in the country while doing what I think everyone would agree is one of the most important jobs. Women who have been working in childcare for ten or 15 years are having to stop work if they have their own child because, after their maternity leave, they cannot afford to put their children into childcare because it is so expensive for many people. This job is mostly done by women, though I do have a three-year-old boy being minded at the moment by a lovely man from Spain.When these women leave the sector, they rarely come back. They tend not to come back. A childcare provider or employer will see graduates and know full well they will only have a certain amount of years with them. We also, of course, have the cost to all of us. As my colleague, Senator Nelson Murray, said, it is becoming unviable for childcare providers to continue in business because of the expense of everything, including insurance. The providers are struggling to remain in business and the parents are struggling to pay for the cost of the childcare. The system is paying people the lowest wages in the country but it is unviable for the services to stay open. They are definitely not profitable but at the same time, the general public cannot afford to pay for places. Demand is increasing because the number of places is dwindling as operators close.

Senator Clifford-Lee mentioned the unmet need in north Dublin. It is everywhere. The situation is the same in south-central Dublin. I have sisters in Kilkenny and Tipperary. We all have babies and it is hard. One nearly has to sell one's soul to get a place in the local crèche. Even then, places are only available when a child turns one. What do you do before that?

The private model is broken and we need to move to a public model. I am encouraged to see movement in that direction. We need a model that will facilitate our workforce by facilitating both parents. Some people say they do not want their taxes paying for other people's children to be minded. The economy, workforce and tax revenue of this country will all be bolstered by the influx of parents who are highly skilled and qualified but cannot go back to work until their children are at least of school age. Some 85% of mothers leave full-time employment within three years of having their first child. Many women who are highly skilled in speech and language and other therapies are not going back to work after maternity leave. If we want a functioning system where all of these waiting lists for assessments of need or therapies are reduced, we need to allow the people who are skilled in those areas to go back to work. That begins with making the childcare system public.

Seán Kyne (Fine Gael)
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Before moving to the Sinn Féin group, I welcome to the Gallery the Dublin branch of the British Transport Pensioners Federation. I hope they enjoy the day and the hospitality. They are welcome.

I understand the Sinn Féin speakers are sharing time.

Pauline Tully (Sinn Fein)
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We will take six minutes and four minutes.

Seán Kyne (Fine Gael)
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Is that agreed? Agreed.

Pauline Tully (Sinn Fein)
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The Minister is welcome. Some of my points have already been raised but I will raise them again anyway. The first relates to capacity in the system, which is an ongoing problem, as we hear from parents and childcare providers. Many parents contact me because they cannot find somewhere to leave their newborn child when they need to go back to work. A childcare provider I talked to yesterday said her waiting list at the moment is between 230 and 240 children, 58 of whom are under the age of one. She has the capacity to take three babies. She said a lot of childcare providers are not even providing childcare for babies. They are not doing a baby room anymore. It is a huge problem.

We are assuming that every mother who gives birth can take the full year off but that is not the case for all mothers. When their maternity leave is up, many of them have the option to take unpaid leave and do so if they can but others cannot afford to do so and may need to return to work when their baby is anything from six to nine months old. Parents cannot find childcare places for such children. I have mentioned the situation for children under the age of one but there is also a problem for children under the age of two.

The Building Blocks capital programme is aimed at extensions to cater for children between the ages of one and three. Again, children under the age of one are not being catered for at all. There is an assumption that every parent will take a full year's leave but, as I said, that is not the case.

I want more investment in community childcare places. That is important. We need to support both private and community services at the moment but we need a greater move to community childcare in general.

Staffing is an issue. A childcare provider told me that she had never before had an issue with staff but they are now leaving to become special needs assistants, SNAs, or teachers, or are leaving to work in different sectors, for example for the HSE or Pobal. It is not just a matter of pay but also of conditions. It is about staff wanting paid maternity leave, more sick leave and better holidays. There are many different factors, perhaps including pensions. It is about pay and conditions. The childcare professionals in the sector are highly qualified and have level 8 degrees in many cases and yet are on a very low wage. That needs to be examined. There have been improvements in recent years but they have not gone far enough. Some childcare providers have told me that the six-week turnaround time for applications for a Building Blocks grant - for an extension, for the construction a new build or for a new premises - is tight because the application requirements are extensive. If planning permission is needed, sometimes they may need more time to get the planning permission required and to do the necessary work in order to make sure they get the grant. They are required to have five quotes from builders, but some of them said they are lucky if they get one quote. That is just a reflection of the shortage in the construction sector. They are also finding it difficult to get the builders and tradespeople to build the extensions or new-builds needed by their service.s

There are a number of new childcare services being started, which is very welcome. I am not sure what the available supports are. Can the Minister outline whether there are any supports available? The Building Blocks capital programme is for providers that are already in existence and registered with Tusla. Can the Minister outline if there are any supports for new services rather than just for existing services?

With regard to the national childcare scheme, NCS, I have been asked why there could not be a universal subsidy for everyone. There is a universal subsidy for a household that has an income of €60,000 or more. For those earning less than €60,000, it is an income-assessed subsidy. While I am sure there is a reason for it, I do not know what that reason is. One childcare provider said she has to raise her fees because of the rise in costs. She said it would not affect the people who are in receipt of the universal subsidy but rather those who have the income-assessed subsidy. She said there is almost an assumption that those on the income-assessed subsidy are not working, and are instead dependent on social protection and at home. She said that is not the case, however. There are a lot of parents, and mothers in particular, who are working full time but in quite low-paid jobs. Therefore, it is having an impact. They will have to increase the amount they pay whereas those on a higher income will not. Is it possible to ensure there is a universal subsidy for all parents in this situation?

Joanne Collins (Sinn Fein)
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I welcome the Minister to the House. I wish to raise a significant flaw in the NCS which is creating financial hardship for childcare providers and placing an unfair burden on parents. Under the current rules, if a parent collects their child early from childcare, the provider is financially penalised. It must either refund the portion of the subsidy it received from the NCS or absorb the financial loss itself. The reality is that most providers who are already under immense financial pressure cannot afford to take the hit and, therefore, are left with no choice but to pass the cost onto parents, charging them for hours they do not use. This is a completely unfair system. Parents should not be financially penalised and punished for picking their children up early from childcare due to work schedules, family needs or unforeseen circumstances. Many parents work in jobs with variable hours and long commutes. Flexible childcare should be supported and not penalised.

Childcare providers are struggling to stay afloat under the weight of this scheme. We already know that many small and community-based providers are at risk of closing due to rising costs and staffing pressures. Instead of providing stability, the NCS is creating even more financial uncertainty for them. If a provider cannot rely on stable funding because of unpredictable attendance, how is it expected to maintain staff levels, keep its doors open and continue delivering quality childcare? The Government needs to urgently address this issue. The NCS should support flexibility and not penalise it. Funding should be based on the actual needs of childcare providers and families rather than forcing a rigid, one-size-fits-all model that does not reflect the reality of how families use childcare. If we are to be serious about making childcare more affordable and accessible, we need to ensure the system is fair for both the parents and the providers.

Imelda Goldsboro (Fianna Fail)
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Our next speakers are Senators Nessa Cosgrove, Malcolm Noonan, Laura Harmon and Patricia Stevenson, who I understand are sharing time. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
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The Minister, Deputy Foley, is very welcome. While the title of this debate is childcare, the preferred title for the sector among early years educators is “early childhood care and education and school-age care”. I know that many educators and their trade union SIPTU have communicated this message to the Department of children on many occasions.

The shortening of the title of the debate to childcare can perhaps be seen as indicative of the lack of respect being shown to the sector, which is led by some of the most highly qualified and dedicated women I meet in my day-to-day life. I say "women" because the early years sector is still female dominated, with 98% of those in it women. I am a mother of three children so I have had a lot of interactions with early years educators over the years. This ongoing lack of respect has led to the various crises that engulf the sector today and will continue to engulf it until a radical and total overhaul of this most important element of our economy is addressed and undertaken.

I am talking about the crisis in recruitment and retention of staff, which is fuelled by the crisis in pay and conditions. We have all spoken about this today. I am talking about the shortage of places, particularly for babies - this too has come up loads of times in the debate - and younger children. This crisis is preventing many people, again, chiefly women, from engaging in the workforce. On a single day last June, in Sligo alone five private providers left the sector. One service was taken on by the community, resulting in the net loss of four excellent small service providers. A further provider, a young woman, has confirmed her intention to leave the sector and will close her doors in June 2026.

This week alone, I have been contacted by two Sligo childcare providers, each running a successful preschool service. I know them personally and can attest to their commitment and the quality of their services. One is an honours graduate with experience of lecturing in early years and both are women with immense knowledge and experience of the sector. Each is desperate to exit her private business in a sector which has become so toxic - though I hate to use the word - to many of its leaders. One has identified that going into the area of special needs is more rewarding both professionally and financially and the other would like the State to acquire her business. The women feel taken for granted. They feel the Department of children has no interest in them.

Last week, I got a text from a woman saying that early years providers needed to have a real job with real pay, real benefits and with a real structure to ensure they are eligible for a pension when the time comes. This text sums up how many of the providers are feeling. I know the Minister, Deputy Foley, is new to her role but she must have been aware, when she was in the Department of Education, of the destruction to the sector and the loss of goodwill which came about as a result of the introduction of core funding and the imposition of the chart of accounts upon the sector. I do not work in the early years sector but the name "chart of accounts" and the whole process around it have been raised with me as a local representative so many times. The chart of accounts was introduced without any meaningful consultation with the people who implement it. Many services are struggling to get their chart of accounts done again.

I see I am running out of time. I hope the Minister will listen to the Labour Party recommendation to take over the childcare in situ scheme. We will encourage the move towards a fully publicly funded model for early years childcare.

Malcolm Noonan (Green Party)
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Cuirim fáilte leis an Aire agus í ar ais arís. This is a sector in which I have a great interest. My wife is a practitioner in a lovely Montessori called First Steps Montessori, with Mary Verling and her team in Kilkenny. Over the past 20 years, I have been a voluntary board member of a number of community childcare projects. These projects, which Senator Tully also mentioned, are really important, particularly for vulnerable and low-income families.

The Minister's predecessor and my colleague, Deputy O'Gorman, made significant investment in early childhood education and development in the previous Government. This resulted in a tremendous uplift in terms of funding, which doubled from €638 million to €1.3 billion in 2025. The First 5 strategy, the expansion of the national childcare scheme and the access and inclusion model were brought through in budget 2024. While the core funding model for childcare providers did not suit all providers and there were challenges around it, it was, in principle, a step in the right direction in terms of the sustainability of early childhood development.

Senators mentioned the reduction in fees. The previous Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, was keen to advance that during his time in government, as is the Minister as she moves into her Ministry. I also mention pay and conditions because we will not have a viable early childhood development sector in Ireland unless we have viable pay for workers. We also have enhanced parental leave policies.

In the seconds remaining to me, I highlight the commitment in the programme for Government to have a publicly funded model. I also note there was a commitment to create a legal right to two years of early childhood care and education in the manifestos of both Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael. That is vital. It is critical that we move towards a public model. These are the most important educators in the life of a young person. Early childhood education should be child-centred and parent-centred and should value practitioners as educators in their own right.

Laura Harmon (Labour)
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I thank the Minister for being here. It is fair to say the childcare and early years sector in Ireland is characterised by low pay for those working in the sector, high staff turnover, high costs for those running childcare settings and high costs for parents and families who wish to avail of this service. We need to cap the childcare fee at €200 and we need a clear timeframe for this. No parent should have to decide whether they can afford to go to work or afford childcare fees or, indeed, whether they can afford to have another child because of the cost of childcare. It is affecting family planning.

Many who have worked or currently work in the childcare sector tell me they cannot afford to stay working in early years. One such person is my friend Councillor Ciara O’Connor in Cork, who left the early years sector, which she deeply loved. She said it broke her heart to leave but that she could not afford to continue because the pay was too low. She would not have been able to afford a mortgage or a future for herself. These people are highly educated, often holding level 8 or level 9 degrees, and the college courses are of very high quality. These educators need to be treated in the same way as primary and secondary school teachers in how they are paid, and we need a publicly funded model of education for childcare.

Early education practitioners are often the first to notice if a child has additional needs requirements such as speech and language therapy or occupational therapy or needs an autism assessment. They are key for that early intervention for a child. Those working in the access inclusion programme are also low paid and that too needs to change.

Patricia Stephenson (Social Democrats)
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I thank the Minister. After all the interventions we have heard here this afternoon, we can say the situation for childcare and for families is really bleak. I have spoken to women who had to put their child's name on the waiting list when they were four months pregnant. I have spoken to a plethora of women my own age who are delaying having their first child or subsequent children because they are so worried about the costs. The sky-rocketing costs reflect the fact the system is failing families.

The Social Democrats have been advocating for a comprehensive policy and public model of early childhood education and care to alleviate the strain on the crumbling childcare system. We need a national childcare agency to ensure quality care for all children, affordability for parents and, most important, as has been discussed at length today, proper pay and conditions for childcare workers. We really cannot have a functioning childcare system if we are not reflecting the value of the work that is being done. I have met childcare workers, as have all of us here today, who work very hard caring for our children but whose pay and conditions do not reflect what they are doing. We heard from Senator Nelson Murray about some people leaving the sector to work in Aldi or Lidl, where they are paid more per hour. These people are very well qualified. They have gone through many levels of qualification. It is such a critical role, and the fact the staff turnover is so high is a direct consequence of the pay and conditions. The Irish Times reported this week that 24.5% of staff are leaving the sector every year.

Establishing a public childcare sector would provide consistency to families and workers. It would address the huge waiting lists, enable price caps, which the Minister discussed, and provide better conditions for childcare workers. It is the only way to achieve an equitable system where no family or worker is left behind.

As Senator Ní Chuilinn pointed out, this is really a gender equality issue. Many women are prevented from returning to work, or if they do, they will have been five or six years out of work and are coming back on lower wages. If we look at this through the lens of gender equality, that will be a good framework for how we go about changing it. It is not okay that women are having to make decisions about whether to have children because they are worried about the costs of childcare. It is very scary for many young women in Ireland that their family planning decisions are being made because of this crisis.

Imelda Goldsboro (Fianna Fail)
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Senators Byrne and Kyne are sharing three minutes and two minutes.

Cathal Byrne (Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister for coming to the Chamber and acknowledge the presence of Councillor Paddy Meade from Meath, who has joined us.

I begin by highlighting the need for greater State involvement in the childcare sector. As somebody from Wexford, I am contacted every week by parents who highlight to me the fact that in many areas of Wexford, be it urban areas like Wexford town, Enniscorthy and New Ross or rural villages, they simply cannot access childcare.

We have to accept that the private model we have is not working, for reasons such as pay and conditions, waiting lists and the fact that the model is not even. There is simply no access to childcare in many villages, beyond local childminders. We have to move towards greater State involvement in the sector. I very much welcome the Minister's statement that she holds similar views and there will be greater State involvement over the term of the Government.

As the Minister, who is a former Minister for Education, knows, we are not getting the most out of our school facilities in terms of being available for pre- and after-school care, in particular in rural villages. As we develop new schools, we should co-locate childcare facilities.

Many colleagues have highlighted access to childcare for children under the age of one. Many parents have told me that they will be able to get a space, but unfortunately it will not be available until a child has turned one. There is a gap period between when paid maternity leave ends and access to childcare becomes available. We need to seriously examine that and try to address it.

I want to highlight the important role played by childminders. Many childminders have told me they are nervous about greater regulation and Tusla overseeing what they do. They are concerned that their homes, where children are minded, will require many more features, facilities and safety mechanisms. They are concerned that over the course of the Government, they will, in effect, be reduced to being red taped out of existence. It is important that we protect the traditional method of minding children in people's homes, in particular in rural areas where it is common. That needs to be supported and encouraged.

Seán Kyne (Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister. I acknowledge the level of investment in the Department of children in the years since its establishment in 2011. I concur with many of the comments made by previous speakers on this important sector. Having engaged with parents, providers and SIPTU over the years, I welcome the additional funding, JLC process and employment regulation orders that have been established to put support under the sector. It is hugely important that we provide minimum rates of pay and additional funding of up to €45 million in a full year. That will be of benefit.

I refer to those providers not under the core funding model, including those which were under it and then left. Some parents do not have a choice; they were in that care system or there was no alternative. Therefore, they are paying the full whack, which could be the equivalent of a mortgage payment, a significant amount of money. Could any support be put in place for parents, be it a tax allowance or whatever, in the forthcoming budget? Those parents would rather be in the core funding model and have the benefit of a reduction in fees, but they are not in it because there are no alternatives in certain areas. I have come across this in Galway city. Such parents are put to the pin of their collar and are most likely paying mortgages and significant childcare fees. Something like a tax allowance would benefit those parents.

Sarah O'Reilly (Aontú)
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Across the childcare sector there is huge frustration among service providers, staff and families. In March, the Government approved fee hikes in nearly 20% of childcare providers in the country. These hikes directly contradict the promises outlined in the programme for Government, which committed to reducing the cost of childcare to €200 a month per child. The caring professions are often praised as career paths that add incredible value to the country. These individuals are told the work they do is invaluable, and it is not unusual to hear people say these roles are like a vocation.

Remarkably, however, when I speak to people who work as early-years educators, they tell me they would discourage anyone from pursuing a career in the sector. The CEO of the Federation of Early Childhood Providers recently spoke of massive staff retention issues, with providers feeling burned out and underpaid. The starting rate for these positions is €13.65 per hour, only 15 cent more than the minimum wage and €1 less than the living wage. We are expecting people to take on these incredibly emotionally and physically taxing roles but do not compensate them for the work. We will not see an increase in childcare places if we do not immediately provide the financial compensation needed to keep childcare workers in the industry and encourage young people to pursue this career pathway.

We lack imagination on childcare issues. In an Amárach Research poll last year, more than two thirds of mothers polled said they would rather stay at home with their children were it financially possible. Why do we put no focus on supporting those people, predominantly women, who want to stay at home as parents? They provide a valuable service to the State and the country but they receive no financial assistance or supports. Aontú wants an additional, means-tested, second rate of child benefit to be introduced. It could see 40,000 children lifted out of poverty and would significantly ease financial pressure for families. We also want to introduce a €3,000 childcare subvention for parents who choose to stay at home in the first three years of the child’s life. Creating an environment where that was possible would take pressure off the demand for additional childcare places but would also allow families to make the best decisions for themselves, based on their own desires and needs.

Emer Higgins (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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I welcome the opportunity to discuss the really important issue of early learning and childcare. It was great to be able to watch the debate and see so many Senators contribute to what is a really important topic for so many families. It is clear from the discussions that we all recognise the importance of early learning and childcare for children and their families as well as for society and the wider economy.

In her opening statement, the Minister, Deputy Foley, described the constituent parts of Together for Better, the Government’s funding model for early learning and childcare, which has an allocation of €1.25 billion in 2025 alone. She also summarised how this funding model has brought benefits to children and their families, educators and practitioners, as well as providers since it was first introduced in September 2022.

Among the achievements since then are the high participation rates in core funding among services. Some 93% of providers are participating in year 3 of the scheme and there are a higher number of providers in absolute terms compared with other years. Senator Kyne raised the issue of the 7% who have not opted in and how we can support parents who may have faced an increase in fees as a result, as Senator Sarah O’Reilly noted. I will take this back to the Minister. However, a fee freeze is in place for the vast majority of services, namely, the ones that have signed up. There has been a 29% increase in the number of services offering the national childcare scheme and a 66% increase in the number of children supported to access the scheme to sponsorship arrangements. There has been a 78% increase in the number of children who benefit from the scheme more broadly in the past two years alone.Extended support for graduate-led provision outside the ECCE programme has also happened, and there is greater stability and sustainability in the sector. That is because of a minimum core funding allocation of €14,000, which is now in place. There is greater operational and financial transparency in the use of public funding and, importantly, in response to the issues with retention in childcare providers, there have been two consecutive rounds of employment regulation orders, which have resulted in improved pay for an estimated 70% and 50% of those working in sector. In my previous role, as a Minister of State in the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, I did a lot of work on that, and I was happy to sign one of those employment regulation orders. The new negotiations by the Joint Labour Committee are at an advanced stage and further improvements in pay are expected later this year through the updated employment regulation orders. These negotiations are being supported by €55 million in additional State funding, which has been ring-fenced for this purpose. Ultimately, all our available data points to an expanding sector. For example, data from the early years sectoral profile survey shows that between 2022 and 2023, the estimated number of enrolments in service rose by 8%, as did the estimated number of staff in early learning and childcare, so we can see it is growing in tandem and is at a good trajectory and rate.

Core funding application data shows that between years one and two of the scheme, capacity in the sector also increased by almost 8%, with analysis showing that increased capacity is the type of capacity with the highest demand relative to supply. Data from Tusla on service closures and new service registrations showed a net increase of 226 in the overall number of services in 2024. It has also, importantly, shown the lowest number of service closures in the past six years. We have more providers opening their doors and fewer providers leaving the market. There has also been international recognition of our efforts, with the European Commission recently endorsing the approach of the Government and welcoming what it called the substantial progress we have made.

While noting these strong indicators of progress, this Government has not shied away from the challenges that continue to persist in the sector, including high out-of-pocket costs for parents, the poor pay and working conditions for educators and practitioners and, ultimately, the lack of supply of places in certain areas and for certain cohorts, which featured frequently during this debate. The Government has, in the new programme for Government, set out a pathway to address these challenges. In addition to planned reforms to the funding model and increases in the levels of supply referred to by the Minister, Deputy Foley, a wider and ambitious reform agenda is under way in the area of early learning and childcare through the implementation of a range of other policies and programmes that deserve special mention.

For example, work is under way to develop the new implementation plan for the First 5 strategy, which covers 2026 to 2028, and implement phase 2 of the national action plan for childminding, which runs from 2021 to 2028. Continued work is under way to implement the recommendations in Partnership for the Public Good, the report of the expert group for a new funding model. Work is under way to implement Nurturing Skills, the workforce plan for the sector for 2021 to 2028, with commitments to developing career pathways, promoting careers in the sector and supporting staff recruitment. That all complements recent achievements and the future plans to improve pay and conditions of employment in the sector. There is also work under way to finalise an action plan for administrative and regulatory simplification. That follows on from detailed engagement with the sector last year and an independent review by INDECON of the end-to-end processes linked to departmental funding schemes. Planning work is under way for a new State agency to support the delivery of early learning and childcare, and that presents an opportunity to revolutionise the sector. The Building Blocks capital programme under the national development plan is being designed to meet current and long-term early learning and childcare infrastructure needs. There is also work under way to develop a national plan to further enhance Irish language provision in early learning and childcare sectors, which will be published later this year. There is ongoing work to review a legislative and regulatory framework for school-age children and a strengthened inspection system and to have appropriate enforcement powers as well.

The early learning and childcare sector is absolutely a public good and has benefits right across society. In recognition of this, the Government has agreed a really ambitious new plan and programme of work that is allowing us to build on the significant progress made over recent years. We are committed to continuing to invest in this sector, in particular through additional investment in the upcoming budget 2026, to achieve our combined objectives of affordable, accessible and quality early learning and childcare.

Imelda Goldsboro (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister of State for coming in.