Seanad debates

Thursday, 24 October 2024

Nithe i dtosach suíonna - Commencement Matters

Driver Licences

9:30 am

Photo of Martin ConwayMartin Conway (Fine Gael)
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I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Lawless, to the House.

Photo of Mark DalyMark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I thank Senator Conway for taking the Chair while I ask this question and I thank the Minister of State, Deputy Lawless, for coming to the Chamber to take this question. It is about an issue that affects many Irish emigrants who return home. Often their driver licences are out of date and they have to take the driver test again, even though they may have been driving for 20, 30 or 40 years. Not only does it cost them a lot of money but it is an inconvenience. It also affects many citizens of Canada, Australia and the US who want to come here to work but find we do not have reciprocal driver licence agreements with their state or provincial government. It is an economic issue that creates hardship and barriers for our citizens returning home from abroad after many years or, sometimes, after many decades. Anything we can do to make their lives easier is important. A reciprocal driver licence agreement between Ireland and some of the countries where many of our emigrants go could be of assistance to them there in getting their driver licence exchanged without having to go through various loopholes.In return, US, Canadian and Australian citizens who want to work here would be able to do likewise. It is a practical measure and it has been done in provinces in Canada. When we had the ambassador, H.E. Ray Bassett, there for a number of years from 2010 to 2016, he put this in place by personally pursuing this as an issue and he managed to succeed with it in a number of Canadian provinces. After he left office, it seemed to fade away. It would be a measure that would be of great benefit to Ireland but also to citizens from other countries coming to Ireland.

Photo of James LawlessJames Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Senator for raising this very important matter. I acknowledge his ongoing work and dedication to building relationships with legislators in other jurisdictions, working with both the Irish community and the broader community in other areas. This question is very much a thematic of his approach and I know that does not happen by accident but by hard work and diligence. These connections are not made organically but happen because of the investment of time, effort and resources. I acknowledge the Senator's ongoing work in that regard.

I will set out the context for driver licensing law, how it is set up and how it relates to the three jurisdictions of interest in the question: the United States of America, Australia, and Canada. First, Irish driver licensing law operates within a framework of EU law and the EU and we have a place in that wider system. The driver licensing legislation, therefore, is one with which all member states must comply and is common across member states. Notwithstanding that however, Ireland can enter into bilateral licence exchange agreements with countries outside the EU and EEA. We have a common framework within the EU but we can and do enter into bilateral agreements with other countries.

Entering into a driving licence exchange agreement with a country outside of the EU, however, is not a straightforward matter and neither is it a matter of political will. If everything we wanted to do in these Houses was a matter of political will, I suspect a great deal would be done much faster. We must follow the regulations that apply particularly in something as important as road safety and consistency of standards on our roads.

To reach a bilateral agreement, the most important element is ensuring that the other jurisdiction applies standards for obtaining a licence which are compatible and comparable with our own, that we have a common approach, and that their and our standards are aligned. If the other jurisdiction does not meet these standards, no agreement is possible, no matter how desirable an agreement with that jurisdiction may be. From our the Irish side, the Road Safety Authority, RSA, perform that comparison or analysis of the standards in other jurisdictions to see whether they are compatible with ours.

With regard to Canada, the Senator will be pleased to learn, or perhaps he is already aware, that we have exchange agreements with seven of the ten provinces of Canada. These are: Alberta, British Columbia, Manitoba, Newfoundland and Labrador, New Brunswick, Ontario and Saskatchewan. Seven of those ten are in agreement with us in the Canadian provinces. Ireland generally issues the equivalent categories of AM and A1 licences for motorbikes and B for cars in exchange for the Canadian licences.

On Nova Scotia, we are reviewing the driving test standards against ours at the moment and we are hopeful of reaching such an agreement. That will be an eighth province if that is added to the list. No other province is currently under review but the RSA has invited each Canadian province to engage with us with the intention of entering into further bilateral agreements but, unfortunately, as at this time, other provinces have not sent for the information that is required and have not engaged in that process. There is an open invitation for them to do so and perhaps the Senator might use his good offices to encourage them to do that. I am sure he will do that after this debate.

Ireland has a driving licence exchange agreement with Australia. All categories of driving licence can be exchanged, as long as they are compatible with an Irish equivalent. An automatic licence is the default licence issued, unless the licence holder subject to the exchange can prove they passed their driving test in a manual transmission vehicle. We already have a good working arrangement with Australia and I hope that would be quite satisfactory to most people.

The RSA has previously explored reaching agreement, or exchange, or an agreement in principle, with the USA. The difficulty is that US licensing operates at state rather than federal level. Rather than there being one jurisdiction we are engaged with, there are 50 different systems, all with widely varying standards, road safety performance, metrics and so on. Some have road fatality rates that are not acceptable in an Irish or EU context. The difficulty is that agreement with any one state would also mean taking into account the exchange relationships that state might have with the other 49 states. There are interstate relationships and understandings within the US where, if we entered into agreement with one particular state, we may unwittingly become bound by agreements with other states who might have standards below what we would expect in this country.

That is the difficulty, unfortunately, with the United States. The RSA, therefore, determined that such an agreement was not possible without, frankly Senator, endangering road users in Ireland because of the gap in standards.

I am open to making progress on that as I understand the Senator is also and if that is something we can explore. Perhaps with the future US administration, I would be happy to engage, but not just on my side. That is the position as it stands now for the Senator and I thank him for raising this important matter.

Photo of Mark DalyMark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister of State for his response. On the issue of political will, we can see what happened in Canada as a result of one individual, our ambassador, taking the issue on board.

On the response that the RSA determined that such an agreement would not be possible without putting in danger road users in Ireland, that is a wholly unacceptable response in that all of those states will have, as I understand it, agreements with Canada. Drivers, therefore, can exchange their Alabama driving licence with a Canadian province and, ultimately, with Ireland. It is not acceptable for the RSA to say that their road safety standards are not up to our standards.

This is a matter of political will with regard to the RSA not wishing to undertake what is an onerous and lengthy task of taking on the 50 states individually but other European countries have done it. Yet, we are turning around and saying that we will accept motorists from other European counties driving here. They will accept US citizens driving in their countries, but we will not allow them to drive here. If we follow the matrix, there is no logic to the answer. The answer should be that the US has standards that are acceptable to most European countries.

We go over there and our citizens drive and end up having to take tests and to do all of that. Their citizens come over here, as our citizens do, and have to go through a rigorous process as if they had never driven in their lives. Practically, it makes no sense that we do that. Ultimately, the answer that the RSA is not accepting the driving licence system of the United States as being up to standard is wholly unacceptable and is quite frankly, a bit of an insult by the authority to our friends there. I would like the RSA to provide the Minister of State with its analysis of that as it would make for quite interesting reading. It is a somewhat wholly unacceptable answer by the authority to say that the United States does not have an acceptable driving licence system and is not an answer the Government would support.

Photo of James LawlessJames Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Senator and I have carefully noted what he said. The argument is well made and I will be certainly happy to take that away and to do further analysis on it. I will ask the RSA to provide further detail on the analysis it undertook.

I note also with interest that the Senator suggested that a Canadian province licence is compatible where there is perhaps an exchange agreement with the United States. Someone could therefore have an United States licence, converted to a Canadian licence, converted to an Irish licence under these agreements. I will have to investigate that to see if that is correct and if it is, it would certainly seem to be something that is capable of being explored further.

The Government's focus on reciprocal agreements at the moment is targeted largely at identifying states that may be a source of drivers and even mechanics into the industry, as we have a shortage of drivers and mechanics both in buses and heavy goods vehicles, HGVs, at the moment. I met with Dublin Bus representatives recently and they impressed upon me its challenge in recruiting mechanics and Haulage sector representatives would comment similarly. That is why often in the Houses when we have debates on public transport, bus reliability, and so forth, part of that debate goes back to the difficulty in obtaining both drivers and mechanics. The focus is on identifying states outside the EU that may have a pool of talent available in those skill sets and that is where the primary focus is at the moment.

Notwithstanding that, it is absolutely possible, where the Senator gave an example of the good offices of the former ambassador, H.E. Ray Bassett in Canada, where there are now seven of the ten provinces in an agreement and with an eighth province under way. Such progress is possible.

I am happy to work with him on this going forward and I thank him for his contribution.

Photo of Martin ConwayMartin Conway (Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister of State and Senator Daly. Our next Commencement matter is in the name of Senator Gallagher.