Tom Clonan (Independent)
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Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire Stáit. I thank him for coming along and deputising for the Minister for Health. Cathaoirleach, why is the Minister for Health not here?

Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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The Commencement matter is one for the Department of Health but I cannot answer as to why the Minister for Health cannot be here.

Tom Clonan (Independent)
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I want it noted for the record that the Minister for Health never appears here for any of the Commencement matters that I submit, no matter how grave. Once is happenstance, twice is coincidence but three times or more is a strategy. This is a matter of such gravity and I infer from his absence today an attitude towards the issues that I am raising continuously in this House, which shows a contempt, not for me but for this House and Commencement matters in general as well as for the most vulnerable people in Irish society on whose part I am advocating. I apologise to the Minister of State for that intervention and ask him not to infer anything personal from it.

I am asking the Minister of State to comment, although I do not know how meaningfully he can, given his portfolio is transport. That said, he is a barrister and might be able to assist me with the case of Ms Caitlin Ada Joanne Hassan. I give her full name because she is a human being. She is a young woman with an intellectual disability whose mum, Louise, placed her in the care of a section 38 service provider, Avista. While in their care, she was physically and sexually assaulted. As a parent and a carer myself, I know that to hand one's child - notwithstanding that he or she is an adult - over to the care of another person or institution and to have that child physically and sexually assaulted is unspeakable. I do not have the words to adequately describe the moral injury inflicted on that whole family. When Louise made the complaint to An Garda Síochána and to the service provider, Avista, the latter commissioned a report, a so-called trust in care, TIC, report, which has not been provided to the family. It has been circulated to other parties but not to the family. It has not been provided to the mum or to the survivor, the person who was targeted in this way.

I wrote to the HSE on behalf of the family and the reply I got is emblematic of the attitude of disability service managers and the HSE in general towards the most vulnerable citizens in Ireland. In the second paragraph the HSE says: "...Avista advise that engagement with Louise [Caitlin Hassan's mother] has been challenging over a period of time..." What a word to use. This is a mother whose daughter has been sexually assaulted. The word "challenging" implies that there is some fault or wrongdoing on the part of the mother because she is asking questions and that has been my experience and the experience of all of the people who correspond with me in relation to the HSE. It is not a rights-based approach, it is a grace and favour or charity-based approach. In the third paragraph we have this gobbledygook: " CHO DNCC [whatever that means] were informed by Avista the TIC was reviewed by a legal professional...". What legal professional? Was it a solicitor, a barrister, or a senior counsel? Why is that legal professional not named? I do not see why the legal professional is not named. The letter further states that a new, or "DE novo" trust in care report is to be published but the author, the disability services manager, says that there is nothing in the TIC policy to provide that a copy should be provided to the complainant. However, there is also nothing in the policy that says it should be withheld or be prohibited from being released to the family. I am at a loss to understand why the Minister, who is not here, the HSE, all of the king's horses and all of the king's men and women, are all prepared to use the resources of the State, taxpayers' money, to come up with these reports which are then withheld from a family. As far as I am aware, and the Minister of State may be able to advise me on this because he is a barrister, clients instruct legal professionals and not the other way around. It should be clear and obvious to everybody that there is a categorical, ethical imperative that this report and the information contained therein be released to the mum and family of this young lady. Have we not learned anything in this country from the abuse of people in institutions? Have we learned nothing? Why is the HSE withholding information and gaslighting a mother? I am sorry that it is the Minister of State, Deputy Lawless, who has to respond to me on this morning. I await his reply but I assume he agrees with me that it is moral legalism at its worst to deny a family access to truth, knowledge, information and power. This information should be released to the family.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Senator Clonan for raising this really important issue. I am answering on behalf of the Minister of State with responsibility for disabilities, Deputy Rabbitte. I note the Senator's remarks. I am here to answer on the Minister of State's behalf and will do my best to address the issues that he has raised.

At the outset, I want to acknowledge Senator Clonan's ongoing advocacy for the disability sector. He is a very fine advocate and I respect his commitment to the sector. The Government takes these matters, and any allegations of abuse, extremely seriously and considers the safeguarding of adults at risk against abuse to be of paramount importance. Senator Clonan has referred to a specific case and that case is known to the HSE. However, it would not be appropriate for me to address here the specifics of a sensitive case concerning one individual.

Tom Clonan (Independent)
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I am sorry, but on a point of order.This family has relinquished its anonymity.

Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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I am sorry, Senator Clonan, please-----

Tom Clonan (Independent)
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Therefore, not only is it appropriate for the HSE to comment on an individual case but it is obliged to.

Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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-----the Minister of State without interruption.

Tom Clonan (Independent)
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This is a rhetorical device that is used to protect it and indemnify it from responsibility and I reject it.

Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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Senator Clonan, the Minister of State has the right to speak without interruption.

Tom Clonan (Independent)
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It is a point of order.

Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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Thank you.

Tom Clonan (Independent)
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That rhetorical device should not be accepted in this House.

Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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No. I am sorry, Senator Clonan, but you got your opportunity to put the question. The Minister of State has the right to reply. He can only give the Senator the response he was given, so please do not interrupt him. The Senator knows the rules of the House. I call the Minister of State.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Acting Chairperson. I am advised that it is a complex and sensitive matter involving an ongoing trust in care process. The HSE's trust in care policy is about upholding the dignity and welfare of patients, clients and service users, and the procedure for managing allegations of abuse against staff members. In referring to the provision of a HSE trust in care report to the family, any trust in care investigative process involves the rights of all the individuals involved and those rights must be fully protected to ensure there is a robust process and outcome in the interests of all parties. It suggests that seeking to access a potentially sensitive report may breach the requirements of fair procedure and the rights of parties involved with such a process.

The Senator asked my opinion as a barrister. I am giving my opinion as a Minister of State today but I will make a general comment that sometimes the process may take longer because due process must be followed and there are certain procedures that must be adhered to. There are certain fundamental rights for all involved in any procedural inquiry. This is necessary to get to the right outcome at the end. Sometimes it can be frustrating for all involved and I have seen it in other cases. I am not commenting on this particular case, but sometimes the process may appear to be convoluted and elongated but there are usually good reasons for this to protect the integrity of the ultimate outcome. It is, therefore, generally done for good reason.

The HSE has sought and been provided with assurances by the service provider in this case regarding the safety of all service users in the relevant location and adherence by the service provider to the safeguarding of vulnerable persons at risk of abuse national policies and procedures 2014. The HSE will continue to seek updates from the service provider on the prompt conclusion of that unit investigation in line with fair procedures and natural justice, while ensuring that allegations are fully investigated and funded services are provided in a manner that is safe and to the necessary standards.

The outcome of that process will be determined by the investigation in line with the trust in care policy. The HSE also notes that the service provider has confirmed support for the service user and family and the relevant staff members have also been offered additional supports. It should be noted that the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth is actively engaging with the Department of Health, which is the lead on policy proposals for adult safeguarding from a disability perspective in that sector. It is expected that the Department of Health's sectoral policy framework will come before the Government in due course. It will be informed by, and the Senator may be interested in this point, as am I, the recent Law Reform Commission's report a Regulatory Framework for Adult Safeguarding. This will inform the new policy going forward and I think it is worth a look. I will certainly be having a look at it after the debate. This is where the matter stands at the moment.

Tom Clonan (Independent)
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I thank the Minister of State for that information. On a personal level, I thank him for deviating from the brief he was given to try to address some of my questions. I do appreciate it. Again, I apologise for the comments I made about what I called the rhetorical device. I know it was not something the Minister of State wrote himself. I reiterate that it is personal to the Minister of State and I do appreciate the frankness of his reply.

This case is emblematic of the moral injury experienced by people, our disabled citizens and community of carers. Even the last paragraph of this letter from the disabilities services manager refers to the fact that notwithstanding the allegations, the parent has indicated that they want their child to continue to avail of this service. Why should the child, Caitlin Hassan, be further punished by having to move to another location because of the abuse that was visited upon her? Surely those involved and the perpetrator should be asked to move and not her.

I thank the Minister of State. I also thank the Acting Chairperson for her perseverance and patience with me. I do appreciate it.

Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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I thank Senator Clonan.