Martin Conway (Fine Gael)
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I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Carroll MacNeill, to the House. We look forward to having her at the EU scrutiny committee next Wednesday afternoon. I tabled this motion out of sheer frustration. In 2022, when war broke out in Ukraine, County Clare, more than any other county, made people from Ukraine feel welcome. Over time, some of those people were accommodated privately, others went back to Ukraine or to other countries and others moved to Dublin. A significant number stayed in County Clare and embedded themselves in the county. Their children went to school, they got jobs and became friendly with people and built up relationships. The reason I tabled this motion is that there have been several examples in County Clare of people being uprooted when they should not have been.

In the first instance, my colleague, Councillor Tony Mulcahy, who is a former Senator, spoke to me about 40 Ukrainian people who were moved from Shannon to Lisdoonvarna. This is despite that fact that most of them work in Shannon, all the children go to school in Shannon and most of them had been in the town for the past two years. This happened again more recently in Kilbaha in west Clare. People in Kilbaha were initially reticent about welcoming Ukrainians but that was only the fear of the unknown. As soon as the families landed, they were given a huge céad míle fáilte. They settled into the community, got jobs, played in local sports clubs and the children went to school. The person who was providing the accommodation was happy with them. All members of the community in Kilbaha were 100% caring and considered the Ukrainians friends, yet the Department of integration decided to end the contract and move them to Lisdoonvarna. Ukrainian families in Kilkee were also moved, even though, again, they had been living in the area for 24 or 26 months.

That is the first point. The second point is that the unique aspect of all these stories is that all these people were moved to Lisdoonvarna. Contracts were ended in various parts of Clare, whether Shannon, Ennis or Kilbaha in west Clare, but no contract has ended in Lisdoonvarna. The town has five or six hotels and is predominantly dependent upon tourism. We have been very fortunate that in Lisdoonvarna there have been no anti-immigrant protests. The community has completely welcomed the migrants, the people from Ukraine and indeed the direct provision people who are also living in Lisdoonvarna.

What I am looking for is an overall strategy for County Clare. We need to see some hotels in Lisdoonvarna return to tourism. We need to see the people who are here from Ukraine treated with some respect.

We need to see people who are here from Ukraine, who have embedded in the communities and whose children are going to school in the communities, treated with some respect. I do not believe the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth has any meaningful strategy for County Clare. I think it is making it up as it goes along. I want to see a county-by-county strategy that respects the people in the county, the people from Ukraine and the direct provision people in the county and the economic needs of the county. I do not think this is too much to ask given the Taoiseach has said we need to move from an emergency situation to a more medium-to-long-term strategy in terms of migration. This does not just mean Dublin and tents on Mount Street. It means all of Ireland, including County Clare. I was loath to table this Commencement matter. I have only done it during the very last days of the Seanad and have done so out of sheer frustration.

Jennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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I thank Senator Conway for raising this important issue. I was struck by the total decency, generosity, kindness and humanity he has shown in advancing his Commencement matter on this issue and the way in which he has done it by respecting the lives, experiences and difficulties encountered by the people who have come here from Ukraine and developed good relationships here and the overall balance in terms of the people in County Clare and the economic need. It is exactly this sort of balanced public representation that is the way we should be approaching the migration crisis and the difficulties associated with it.

It just strikes me that the Senator's contribution was in such contrast to some other contributions we hear from other Senators or Deputies in relation to this matter. To give an example, let us take Deputy Pearse Doherty, the senior spokesperson from Sinn Féin, whose new policy is to send Ukrainians back to the safe parts of Ukraine, wherever he imagines those are, next March when the temporary protection directive has to be reconsidered. This is in total contrast to the generous, humane and kind approach the Senator has taken here, balancing the overall needs, economic and social, of the people in County Clare. I thank the Senator for raising this matter and for the approach he has taken.

The Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, has asked me to provide an update in relation to the strategy generally in respect of the beneficiaries of the temporary protection supports that are given. These supports are short-term arrangements and are temporary. The Minister's response states that the Department aims to ensure it has a portfolio of accommodation that meets the evolving needs of the State’s response to the Ukraine crisis. He also states that in recent months there have been decreases in arrivals from Ukraine to Ireland, decreases in those arriving who request accommodation from the State and greater numbers of Ukrainians who choose to move on from State accommodation.

This is the position at present. I recognise, however, that we are having this conversation in July. Winter is coming and Russia has done its best to make Ukraine unlivable then with the bombing of energy production facilities. Coupled with an absence of factories to replace glass, this will mean the position in the country will be extremely difficult and so we might expect there to be a different situation in Ukraine in the autumn. This is now, however, and the Senator has raised concerns about the transfer of beneficiaries of temporary protection from properties in County Clare. The Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, has asked me to update the Senator by stating there are no current planned moves from Kilkee, County Clare. However, as the Senator already identified, contracts with an accommodation centre in Kilbaha and two accommodation centres in Shannon have recently been terminated.

The beneficiaries of temporary protection, but rather than use that term, let us call them people, accommodated in one such centre in Shannon have been relocated as of 24 June to Lisdoonvarna, as the Senator said. The relocation of these 21 people from Kilbaha is due to commence today, 11 July, and further relocations are planned for later this month. What the Minister says, however, is that every effort has really been made to keep the people affected by these moves as local as possible but given the number of moves that may take place over the next few months, this is not always possible. The only factors that can be considered when allocating follow-on accommodation are HSE-assessed medical needs. The Minister states it is not possible to take other issues such as employment or school places into account when allocating follow-on accommodation. Of course, this is coming from an accommodation perspective.

The Minister states he cannot comment on specific cases but that the Department is making decisions to end commercial contracts, in accordance with contractual terms and conditions agreed with providers, on the basis of financial, administrative or other accommodation management reasons, including compliance concerns. That is in some situations but I am not suggesting it is the case in this situation. This would allow this accommodation to return to the private sector, particularly the tourism sector, which, of course, the Senator has identified as being an important pressure that must be balanced with trying to provide accommodation to people fleeing war.

Officials in the Minister's Department work with providers to regularise contracts where possible, but all accommodation provided by the Department is temporary, and people are informed of this when they request accommodation from the State and encouraged to try to make their own arrangements, such as they can, for longer-term accommodation. The Minister asked me to say that he does appreciate this is not easy for people and that moving location can be very disruptive, especially for people who are already deeply traumatised. There is, however, a requirement to balance the need for him to provide the best care we can to all those fleeing the war in Ukraine and coming to Ireland with the requirement to make the best possible use of State funds. What the Senator said about there being a county-by-county strategy would be a very good approach and I will certainly bring this suggestion to the attention of the Minister, Deputy O'Gorman.

Martin Conway (Fine Gael)
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Yet again, the Minister of State continues to be the only one who brings in the replies in a format I can read. I do appreciate it. I must always acknowledge this fact because she is the only one who has ever done it in my 13 years here in the House.

That reply is really what I would have expected from the Department of integration. Clearly, everything is made up on the hoof. What is done is done now in terms of the people from Kilbaha and Shannon. They have reoriented and recalibrated their lives and they are getting on with their lives. Some of them have found private accommodation in Shannon but others have not. At this stage, to reiterate what I said earlier, what we need is a county-by-county strategy. This is particularly the case in the context of Lisdoonvarna. It will be remembered that in 2022, when the war broke out, a few communities in the country gave the big céad míle fáilte to the Ukrainians and Lisdoonvarna was one of them. We still have more than 1,000 people seeking protection in the town, whether these are people here in the context of IPAS or from Ukraine.

That is all very well but the people in Lisdoonvarna, as well as the coffee shops and the tourist attractions throughout north County Clare that benefited from all those rooms being available for people coming on a transient basis, do not benefit now. They are very patient and understanding people but really and truly, having five or six units in a town is too much. We need to see a planned reduction. The people of Lisdoonvarna will absolutely take up their responsibilities and do what they can. Equally, however, we must have a balance. I think the Minister of State gets this point. Unfortunately, though, I do not think the Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, gets it. If he did, he would be here today to respond to this Commencement matter query or he would answer my phone calls, which he does not do, or he would answer my emails, which he also does not do. Clearly, the Minister does not get it, but the Minister of State does.

Jennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Senator for again providing me with the opportunity to listen and understand the concerns he is raising regarding the balance in County Clare. I generally think the county-by-county strategy is where we need to get to, insofar as advancing the Minister's thinking in this regard already. Of course, there is a need to rationalise and manage contracts in cases where some providers have not been compliant and again, I am not suggesting this is the case in this situation. In terms of a balanced overall need, there is definitely a need to balance the economic, tourism and sheer social and personal needs involved in providing accommodation. The best way of doing this, of course, is to discuss it with local representatives.

I have certainly had a good experience with centres in Dún Laoghaire and Blackrock and in respect of a well-managed and supported process with people in Dublin. I certainly hope all the other Members of these Houses will have the same opportunity to engage and represent their broad communities, including those new people who have come into their communities, in the broadest possible way.

I will say that, as a person, I am glad that the changes that had to be made, if they had to be made, were made at the end of the school term and not during the school year. Whatever about moving children at the end of the school term, doing this during the school year is just so disruptive it really could not be countenanced. This is my only comment on this measure.

Martin Conway (Fine Gael)
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The transfers in Kilkee and Shannon were made during the school year.

Jennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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I ask the Senator to forgive me. I had the date of 24 June. I thank the Senator.

Martin Conway (Fine Gael)
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That is okay. I thank the Minister of State.