Mark Wall (Labour)
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I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Richmond, to the House.

Martin Conway (Fine Gael)
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The Minister of State, Deputy Richmond, is very welcome to the House. Today is a landmark day for recycling in this country. The deposit return scheme for plastic bottles and cans is very welcome. It has worked in many other countries and should result in the recycling of cans and bottles in this country going from 60% or 65% up to 90% and maybe even higher, as has been achieved in the countries that have implemented this type of scheme. There are a couple of issues with the scheme I want to highlight today. I want to make it very clear that I welcome the scheme. I support it and I encourage people to participate in the scheme. As we have proven before with the plastic bag levy, we can achieve great results when we all work together. It is from that perspective that I am speaking today.

I would like to see two things happen with the scheme. First, there should be community-based return machines facilitated by the local authorities in every town and village in the country to ensure the footfall is not being directed to the big multiples and away from the high street and the small shops. Second, there should be a grant available so that small shops, newsagents, discount stores and so on can purchase these machines and offer the same service to their customers as is available with the multiples. These machines cost €30,000 to €40,000. There is no way small shops can afford that type of investment given the challenges the retail sector is facing at the moment. I know the Minister of State is very aware of the challenges retailers are facing because he works with them every day of the week in his capacity as Minister of State with responsibility for small business. I hope the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment is examining this to try to create equality between small shops and the multiples.

We want to avoid unintended consequences from this scheme. We do not want this scheme to create the unintended consequence of directing people into the forecourts of the big multiples at the expense of the small shopkeepers. The scheme is great but it needs to be available to small retailers. I look forward to hearing good news from the Minister of State in this regard.

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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I am extremely grateful to Senator Conway for raising this issue. He is absolutely right in saying that today is a great day. There is not a Member of these Houses who has not been calling for a proper deposit return scheme for years.It has been the subject of motions at every political party's conferences, Ard-Fheiseanna and youth conferences for years. It seemed like a common-sense thing but it sadly took too long to bring in. However, it is in now. Today is a good day. It is a good day for the environment and for the budding entrepreneurs who might do a bit of litter picking in their communities.

As Senator Conway has rightly said, this issue has been a topic of discussion at the retail forum, which I chair, a number of times. We had Re-Turn attend to provide an overview of the deposit return scheme process and to answer queries from members, including retail representative bodies of all sizes. While it is great to see that 84% of Irish people are positive about the scheme, we need to help retailers meet these costs. Supports from Re-Turn are in place for small businesses in the form of reduced or waived fees, financial assistance and exemptions. All retailers receive a handling fee for each container they take back. Handling fees are intended to offset the cost of collection, infrastructure, retail floor space, staff and security. In addition to handling fees, several other supports from Re-Turn are in place to assist small retailers, including exemptions from takeback services and financial support for the installation of a reverse vending machine.

After engagement with retailers on this matter, my Department made a case, as part of our budget submission last year, to have reverse vending machines included in the advance capital allowance scheme as we believed this would make a great difference in helping retailers take part in the scheme. It is understood that this was not possible this year due to the scheme not meeting the definition of energy efficiency required to qualify for the EEE scheme. I underline that this is extremely disappointing to me, to my ministerial colleagues in the Department, to the Senator himself and to the retailers we are all speaking on behalf of. Any further legislative change would need to be legislated for through budget 2025 and the finance Bill 2024. We are working on this consistently. My officials are engaging with both the Department of Finance and the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications to advance it. We want to help retailers avail of this scheme for their own sake as well as for the sake of their customers. Now that we have this brilliant scheme up and running, we can see how well it will work. It is important to see it spread out to small retailers, the likes of which Senator Conway was once upon a time.

Martin Conway (Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister of State very much. I know that he is doing his best but there has to be a way around this. It is disappointing that it was not considered appropriate given the nature of the scheme. It seems somewhat illogical. We need to allow small shopkeepers, whether individually or as a number on a street coming together, to provide these machines. The figure of 18,000 machines is not enough. It has to be convenient, easy and fair. It is not fair on small shopkeepers at the moment. The multiples have the opportunity to increase their footfall as a result of people coming to use the reverse vending machines to dispose of their bottles. I know the Minister of State believes in equity and fairness and that he very much supports small businesses. I sincerely hope that his engagement with the Department of Finance bears fruit and that we will see some tangible and practical efforts made to ensure that small shops can avail of these machines as well as the big retailers.

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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I really appreciate that. I apologise to Senator Conway that I forgot to address the point he made on community systems and local authorities in my initial response. It is a fantastic idea. I will take it to the Minister of State with responsibility for local government, Deputy Kieran O'Donnell. I am more than happy to engage with community groups or local authorities around the country to fill the gaps because, at the end of the day, we will need a lot more than 18,000 return vending machines. In the case of the advance capital allowance, I assure the Senator that we will continue to engage with the Department of Finance with a view to having it included in this year's finance Bill. Any assistance that the Senator or this House could provide in that regard would be really appreciated. There are already some supports for smaller retailers but I appreciate that some of them are not sufficient and that we need more. If we are to be serious about this, and we are deadly serious about this, we need to take every opportunity possible to spread the scheme out after we get it fully operational.