Seanad debates
Tuesday, 3 October 2023
Nithe i dtosach suíonna - Commencement Matters
Legal Aid
1:00 pm
Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy James Browne.
Michael McDowell (Independent)
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I welcome the Minister of State. It is a sad day that outside every criminal court in Ireland, the barristers' profession is standing in protest against the unjust actions of our Government, which has been blind to a serious unfairness visited on them. From 2008 to 2011, there was a reduction in barristers' fees, in light of the economic crisis of the time, of between 28% and 69%. In real terms, there has been a reduction of 40% in legal aid fees for barristers since 2002. Nearly everybody else in any criminal court, be it the judge, the registrar, gardaí or State solicitors, has had their pay restored, but somebody in the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform has taken a consistent view that barristers should be singled out for a punitive failure to implement the terms of the Haddington Road agreement and financial emergency measures in the public interest, FEMPI, which called for reviews of reductions.Even though those reviews have been carried out pursuant to statute and a recommendation has been made that the pay rates for these people should be restored, nothing has been done. That is very sad.
I spoke in the Seanad in May of last year and I said on that occasion that this was a scandal. I wrote to the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform, Deputy Donohoe, and I pointed out to him that in July I had been present at a dinner where the Minister for Justice, Deputy McEntee, said:
I of course recognise the vital role played by barristers in undertaking criminal legal aid work. I see no good reason why those in the legal profession are left waiting for crisis-era reductions to be restored, while public and civil servants have had their pay restored. It is very much on my agenda for the upcoming budgetary process and my discussions with Minister Donohoe.
The time has now come for the Government to - I will not use a crudity - get off the fence and deliver justice to people who are working at rates that nobody else in these Houses would work for.
Tom Clonan (Independent)
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Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire Stáit, an Teachta James Browne, go dtí an Seanad. Unprecedented action is taking place today where, country-wide, barristers and solicitors who represent clients who are accused of criminal offences are actually boycotting our court system. I think it is the first time in the history of the State that this has happened. It represents, as has been outlined by Senator McDowell, a crisis in their pay and remuneration to the extent that it is difficult for the Irish Criminal Bar to recruit graduates into this essential component of our justice system.
I listened very carefully to Seán Guerin SC on the radio during the week. He spoke about how this goes to the very heart of our confidence in the administration of justice in Ireland. When the Director of Public Prosecutions, DPP, brings forward charges against a citizen, that citizen will perhaps contemplate the loss of their liberty, and that is a very serious moment for them. The professional formation of our criminal barristers is absolutely essential to the administration of justice.
In the coming days prior to the budget, I ask the Minister of State to impress upon his colleagues at Cabinet the requirement to deal with this in the budget. As I said, it is unprecedented for people outside of our court system. These are two professional groups that would never have taken this action before. That underlines the crisis that they have professionally, but also the wider crisis in terms of confidence in the administration of justice in the State.
Eileen Flynn (Independent)
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Before I call the Minister of State, I welcome St. Tiernan’s Community School from Dundrum to the Chamber. They are very welcome. I call the Minister of State.
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Senators for raising this very important issue. I can assure the House that the Minister for Justice, Deputy McEntee, and I fully recognise the important role played by barristers in the administration of justice, both in the context of working to defend those accused and working with the DPP in respect of prosecutions.
We are engaged in discussions with the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform, Deputy Donohoe, on the issue of criminal legal aid fees as part of the budgetary process. I also acknowledge and appreciate the ongoing co-operation and flexibility that is shown by barristers in working with the Government and the courts to improve efficiencies and create a more victim-centred system, including through a number of actions to give effect to the recommendations of Supporting A Victim's Journey: A Plan to Help Victims and Vulnerable Witnesses in Sexual Violence Cases.
As the Senators are no doubt aware, my Department administers the criminal legal aid system and is responsible for making payments under the scheme. During the financial crisis, counsel fees were indeed subjected to numerous reductions, which formed part of a broader Government agenda to reduce borrowing costs. In 2018, the then Department of Public Expenditure and Reform sanctioned a review process which was led by the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions in conjunction with the Department of Justice. This review concluded that there was sufficient ongoing flexibility to justify these cuts being reversed. The Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions and my Department have engaged with the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform in relation to the restoration of pay on behalf of both prosecution and defence counsel.There are also valid concerns in criminal law practice about the difficulties in attracting new barristers to the criminal Bar and, indeed, difficulties in retaining those currently practising.
On the restoration of fees and the proposed withdrawal of services, I regret that it has come to this. The Minister for Justice, Deputy McEntee, and I have both met with representatives of the Bar Council on different occasions and explained that there are ongoing discussions with the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery, and Reform, Deputy Donohoe, in the context of the upcoming budgetary process. I assure the Senators, as I did the Bar Council, that this matter is, and remains, one that I hope can soon be resolved.
Michael McDowell (Independent)
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Briefly in reply, I welcome the Minister of State's remarks. Indeed, I welcomed the view taken by the Minister for Justice at the event I referred to earlier but it is not good enough that a Department of State, which is part of a collective Government, should leave us in a position whereby the Director of Public Prosecutions conducted a review, recommended the ending of these cutbacks but nothing has been done for more than ten years now. It simply is not good enough. It suggests that there is an agenda in the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery, and Reform against barristers. It can only come down to some civil servants, and they must be senior, who have taken the view that barristers can take a hammering without knowing what it is like to be a junior barrister starting off in one's first year and being given €16 to €20 to attend a District Court to conduct a criminal case. One would not get anybody to visit one's house for that kind of money, except a tax collector. It is about time that whoever is responsible for driving this agenda in the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery, and Reform looks in the mirror and does the decent thing. It is also about time that the Minister, Deputy Donohoe, to whom I wrote in July, faced up to his obligations.
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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Again, I thank the Senators for raising what is a very important matter. As I said already, the Minister for Justice and I are engaging with the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery, and Reform on the issue of criminal legal aid fees as part of the budgetary process. It is also worth mentioning that I am progressing legislation to modernise and improve the operation of the criminal legal aid scheme more generally. This proposed legislation will strengthen oversight and governance structures for the scheme, provide for automation of payments and for a comprehensive review of fees and the manner in which they are paid.
To conclude where I started, I recognise and appreciate the important role played by barristers in undertaking criminal legal aid work. I should declare that I was one of those barristers for many a year. This work is a fundamental part of our criminal justice system and ensures the administration of a fair system of justice.