Lisa Chambers (Fianna Fail)
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I move:

That Seanad Éireann supports the Government commitments on Offshore Renewable Energy referenced in the Policy Statement on the Framework for Phase Two Offshore Wind, approved by Government on 7th March, 2023, a copy of which was laid before Seanad Éireann on 17th May, 2023.

Ossian Smyth (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
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I thank the Acting Chair and Senators and welcome the visitors in the Gallery.

On behalf of the Minister for the Environment, Climate and Communications, I welcome this opportunity to seek the support of Senators for these long-term Government commitments on the development of offshore renewable energy in this State. With a sea area that is seven times its landmass, the realisation of Ireland's offshore renewable energy potential can have a transformational impact on the future of this State. It is the intention of the Government commitments before the House today to provide a structural long-term framework that enables the realisation of this potential. These commitments can further ensure that harnessing our offshore resource delivers necessary wide-ranging and equitable societal, environmental and economic benefits that will be felt throughout the State. The preliminary results of Ireland's first offshore wind auction, offshore renewable electricity support scheme, ORESS, 1, which were announced several weeks ago, mark a pivotal moment in our clean energy transition. With a combined capacity of more than 3 GW, ORESS 1 will deliver sufficient offshore wind to power more than 2.5 million Irish homes. This is by far the largest volume of renewable energy Ireland has ever procured at a single auction. At a price of €86 per megawatt hour, the average auction clearing price is one of the lowest seen in any global emerging offshore wind market. It compares with an average wholesale electricity price of more than €200 per megawatt hour during the past 12 months. As we know from the experience in other European countries, prices in future offshore wind auctions will continue to fall.ORESS 1 is the clearest signal yet that the future development of offshore wind in Ireland will deliver an affordable, sustainable and secure indigenous alternative to imported fossil fuels over the decades to come. At a local level, it is clear that the development of offshore wind be overwhelmingly positive for rural, coastal and local communities. This is due to the creation of sustainable local jobs and through massive inward investment.

Regarding the scale of the required capital investment, the projects that got through the ORESS 1 auction will amount to around €9 billion of investment in the State over the coming five years. At the same time, the mandatory community benefit funds for these projects will deliver more than €24 million in annual payments for local communities for up to 20 years. ORESS 1 is the culmination of a multi-year Government programme of policy, legislative and regulatory frameworks which provide the framework for future offshore wind development in this State.

I also wish to highlight the significant contributions of EirGrid, the Commission for Regulation of Utilities, CRU, and other State bodies and agencies towards arriving at Ireland's first offshore wind auction. As highlighted by today's debate, we are now accelerating delivery of the next phase of offshore wind development in Ireland, with these ambitious long term commitments required to be carried through by this Government and then by future administrations.

Consistent with our European Union peers, Government is designating specific parts of our maritime area for renewable energy production. Development will be managed in a plan-led, strategic and sustainable way. We will achieve our energy objectives in a manner that fully provides for equitable societal and economic impacts, and in consideration for the interest of local coastal communities, including those engaged in fishing and seafood production.

The development of offshore renewables will also take place with full consideration for the protection of marine environment and biodiversity. There is no greater single threat to biodiversity than global warming. It is for this purpose that Government is accelerating development of designated maritime area plans, including an initial south coast plan to enable the start of Ireland's second ORESS auction which will happen in early 2024.

As a signal of Ireland's increased ambitions, we are prioritising the work of the new State agency, the Maritime Area Regulatory Authority, MARA, which will be formally established on 17 July. Prioritisation will follow through to An Bord Pleanála, within which a dedicated marine directorate has been established to process offshore project applications.

Through development of onshore and offshore electricity grids, and exploiting opportunities to develop floating wind, we will maximise the resource potential of our Atlantic waters. This will benefit those communities on our southern and western seaboards.

Recognising their crucial future role, Government will support the development of indigenous ports through a new national ports policy. To accelerate this and other initiatives, we are implementing a long-term, whole-of-government offshore energy programme, driven by the offshore wind delivery task force. When it comes to offshore renewables, this Government will continue to deliver.

Róisín Garvey (Green Party)
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Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire Stáit. Three years ago, there was nothing happening in this area. With this new coalition Government, we have in the past three years expedited offshore wind to a level that was never even envisioned by any Opposition parties. There were not even policies on it. As soon as we addressed the issue, people immediately asked why we had not done work on it already. We have to do it and we have to do it right. We had no maritime protected areas as such before this. We had no MARA. There was no plan for how we were going to do this. In a short three years we are now able to do offshore wind and start the process. We have had successful auctions with some of the cheapest prices in Europe. It is a really positive thing. People might say that we should have done it sooner but nobody was talking about this five or ten years ago, except the Green Party. It is great that, in three short years, we as a coalition have jumped forward so much, because offshore wind cannot be located somewhere unless it is known it is safe to do so there. We have to get the balance right between biodiversity and marine biodiversity. It is great that we have 30 years of experience from people like Dr.Simon Berrow and the Irish Whale and Dolphin Group, IWDG. They have huge experience in mapping and ability to map our waters so that we know where are good and bad places to divide up the waters. Thanks to the Minister of State, Deputy Noonan, we have quadrupled our maritime protected areas, and all this in just three years.

It is a very exciting time, for me especially. I live in Clare and Moneypoint is going to be one of the most significant places in the entire country. It will be supplying enough power for more than 2 million houses, at least, when we go offshore. It is not in the first round but it is important we plan ahead.

I want to talk a little about planning ahead because eight or ten years can go pretty quickly. I have been working with guidance counsellors, the Technological University of the Shannon in Limerick, Clare and Limerick Education and Training Board, ETB, the Irish Whale and Dolphin Group and an independent councillor in west Clare, Ian Lynch. I have some concerns about the fact that I do not see moves to get the upskilling and the training to counties Clare and Galway as there will be some offshore in Galway as well. Are we bringing the training and the skills to the people of Connemara, for example, in the first round? Will they be coming to Kilrush and Kilkee in Clare for the second round?

I will go through a few lists of different things we will need as soon as possible. They include planning and environmental impact assessments, project managers, civil, mechanical, and electrical engineers, ecologists, scientists, social scientists, marine biologists, construction, maintenance and repair people, health and safety officers, crane drivers, electrical and electronic technicians, energy plant operatives, legal and professional services, transport and logistics services and managers, accountants, and marine operatives like ship crew. I see that there are six centres of excellence coming and I welcome them. I know Mr. Seamus Hoyne has done great work in this area around the retrofitting programme, but it is not to do with offshore renewables. I see there are some good courses at the Technological University of the Shannon in Limerick and that Limerick and Clare Education and Training Board is offering some good courses in Raheen in Limerick.

If we are looking to a low-carbon future, however, we also need to bring the training as close as possible to the people who are living in the areas and who will be working there. We have an ETB in Kilrush and Kilkee, for example. Could Clare and Limerick ETB not do some of its training courses in the areas where the people already live who deserve the jobs and deserve to be upskilled? There were job losses at Moneypoint and there will be more as it is scaled back. It was always promised that the jobs would be brought back to west Clare and I know we can do that. I would love for the people of Clare to be the ones who are doing the training and the courses to get the jobs, as opposed to people down in UCC or UCD who will have these great degrees and courses accessible to them. We need to look at this issue. Courses could be provided online. So much can be done online. Students might have one day a month or one day a week where they come in to the ETB to do the training. We have think big on this.

We also have a good Shannon Estuary task force which is doing some great work. However, there is a huge imbalance between the representation from Clare and from Limerick, which concerns me. The task force is doing very good work. It points to the essential building blocks of unlocking the potential of the Shannon Estuary as a whole, but we need to make sure we get it right. We have the Maritime Area Regulatory Authority now, which is great, because we never had such an authority before. We had to get that in place. We had to get the maritime area consent across and now we have the options going. It is phenomenal what we have done in three years but now we need to get the rest of it right.

I have guidance counsellors coming to me asking what courses they should be pushing, who they should ask and where they find out. If students go to apprenticeships.ie, they are told to ask their guidance counsellor. We are missing a few tricks there. We have to join some dots. As a former educator myself, I would love to see this done. I have written HETAC and FETAC modules in the past and I know they can be broken down. A civil engineer, a carpenter or a digger driver can do a few modules and upskill for things that are going to be needed to be done in the future. That is the way education is going now. A person does not need to start from a position of no knowledge at all to doing a full degree sometimes. If a person has 30 years' experience as a carpenter and has never been qualified, he or she can still go into a masters degree. I cannot remember what it is called but it is when someone has loads of experience and it is counted as a qualification. That is something we really have to value because we have great people who have been working hard in places like Clare and Connemara for years, who are skilled and are just missing a module or two or a postgraduate qualification that could be done online or part time through access education and through the ETBs. It is something we really need to get right because we need people to start their degrees, masters and postgraduate courses now. I had a friend who did the HDip with me and he did not even have the leaving certificate, but he was able to do a postgraduate course.

I want to make sure we get this right. I want to see centres of excellence also doing outreach. It is great we have the six of them now and they are brilliant. I am not knocking it at all but I am always looking for more. We need to get them to do more reaching out as well. If we can do it in an ETB in one of those six areas, we should be able to provide that training. Of course some of it is very specific and we have a new marine building coming to Kilrush, so that can be kitted out to do some of the education as well. I would like to see that we do that in order that we do not have people either missing out on training because they cannot get there or driving long distances and burning loads of carbon as we train them up and upskill them to be moving us away from carbon.

Lisa Chambers (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister of State. This debate is very welcome. I am from County Mayo. I think there is great potential and opportunity off the west and north-west coasts.I can see the focus is on the east coast and the south for the time being. We are even seeing projects as far up as County Clare, as Senator Garvey detailed. Ultimately, however, when we look 20 years down the line, it will be the west and north west that will drive our renewable offshore wind energy generation. That is where the most wind is and the most opportunities are but I appreciate the technology required for those areas will be quite advanced, as the seabed is deeper, it is windier, and the waters are more choppy. It presents a challenge but there will be a huge opportunity for us there.

There are probably some constraints we need to address now. Even though it may be ten years before we see the first floating offshore wind farm off the coast of counties Mayo, Sligo or Donegal, it is a realistic target. We need to let industry know we are open for business in those areas. That is my concern. I raised with the Minister, Deputy Ryan, the fact there was understandably a focus on the east and south coasts, but that means the west has been left on the back burner, for want of a better phrase. We are not really letting industry explore or allowing it the space to look at the west and the north west. The Government may take the view right now that the technology is not quite there yet, but that does not mean we should prevent industry from exploring the possibility of offshore off the coast of Mayo and right up into Donegal. It will take time to put the infrastructure in place and to plan for those things. By the time we are ready to move, that technology will be there. It is already there or thereabouts. We have seen floating turbines off the coast of Aberdeen. We know they are in place in other locations so we are close to being there. The planning needs to happen now. We need to say to industry we are open for business off the coast of Mayo and right up the north west.

The Minister of State will be very aware there are constraints regarding the grid. My understanding is EirGrid currently has no plans to upgrade or expand the grid network in the west and north west. We are currently on 110 kV lines, which are not capable of dealing with an offshore wind farm off the west coast. In tandem with our preparations and planning for offshore wind technology and those opportunities in that region, we need to plan to upgrade the grid in the same way in order that it can facilitate bringing that energy onshore. That does not mean there are not other things we can do as well. We know the Corrib gasfield will run out in the next number of years, certainly in seven to eight years' time. That is a brownfield site that could be used for green hydrogen, sustainable aviation fuel and a renewable energy park, again, for want of a better phrase. That requires planning, strategic foresight, and thinking now about what we want to have in place in ten years' time. That would allow us to get the energy onshore, add value to it, and convert it into something else so we are not thinking about the grid in that context. That could be an alternative or something we could do to complement bringing some energy onto the grid.

There are a lot of opportunities in this area. I understand that Government capacity and resources are limited. We cannot do everything at once. I understand the demands. We have the 2030 targets and have to try to meet the 2050 targets, which will come around the corner before we know it. I understand why there is a focus on what I consider the low-hanging fruit, namely, the south and the east coasts, but we are missing an opportunity if we do not start planning for the west and the north west because that is where it is going to be. We, and the Minister, talk a lot about Ireland becoming a net exporter of wind energy. Let us service the domestic market first because there is a huge demand for energy in Ireland. Energy costs have gone through the roof. People want to use green energy. There is also huge demand in the aviation industry. There is certainly a huge domestic market for all the energy we could produce from renewables as well.

That brings me to my next point around community benefit. When we start operating the coastal communities - Senator Garvey touched on this - and we talk about the fishing and coastal communities, how do we go about compensating those communities for this new chapter we are heading into as regards energy production in the country? One potential solution is that people living in those communities are offered a cheaper rate of electricity. That would be a significant benefit to those communities. It is something that needs to be thrashed out. We need to discuss those things. In addition, how do we bring fishing communities with us? There could be huge opportunities. If there is an offshore floating wind farm, there will not really be people fishing in between turbines, if we are honest. That is just not viable or feasible. What we will then have is a protected marine area around the turbines where biodiversity, fish and marine life will thrive. There will be a spillover outside of that area, which will be a rich fishing ground. There are benefits to fishing communities in that when there are protected areas around that space, there are great opportunities. It is about working with fishing communities to explain the benefits of having offshore wind farms in those communities and, of course, making sure we protect the limited fishing we now have, which has been reduced dramatically over many years.

It is great to hear that MARA will be up and running by July. That is fantastic. I wish Vice Admiral Mark Mellett the very best as he heads up that organisation. He is a hugely experienced Mayo man, and a former naval officer and Chief of Staff of the Defence Forces. He is a fantastic individual to lead that organisation. MARA will be crucial to getting this going. It needs to be properly resourced and have the capacity to deal with the demands that will be made of it. Ultimately, our future energy supply depends on it.

I ask the Minister of State to please reflect on the west and the north west and not leave it another ten years to start the planning. Let us not wait for Department officials to suggest we have the technology today. We do not need the technology today. We need to plan today so we are ready to do this work in five, ten or 15 years' time. I also ask the Minister of State to engage with EirGrid to ask it very seriously what its plans are to upgrade grid capacity in the west and north west. If it is not fit for purpose today, it will certainly not be fit for purpose in ten years' time.

Paddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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I welcome the Minister of State to the House. I welcome the opportunity to say a few words during the debate on this very important topic. The Government has to be ambitious and has to take a leap of faith. When explorers or oil companies go out onto the Atlantic, or wherever they go to explore for oil or gas, they do not know what they will get or whether they will get anything, but they take a leap of faith and they go there. The Government has to do that. Not everything it does will be successful, but it will learn a lot from its experience. This is an ideal opportunity where the Government has to take the risk and lead the way particularly, as Senator Chambers said, in respect of the west and north-west coast. This is where the greatest potential in the world is for green energy.

As the Minister of State said, we have seven times our landmass offshore. There is huge potential there. At the last offshore wind auction, energy was €86 per MWh. That is the cheapest energy that can be produced in the world, and it can be produced along the west and north-west coast. However, we are losing out and will lose to the Scottish. Senator Chambers pointed out where we need the grid. We absolutely need more grid capacity. EirGrid needs to put its plan in place. The Minister of State needs to find out what plan it has, if it has any. The work on that seems to be progressing very slowly.

On the production of energy from offshore wind, we can go down the hydrogen route. There is and will be huge demand for hydrogen right around the world. All the big machinery will, no doubt, be powered by hydrogen, including aeroplanes. We see e-fuels are being used in Formula 1 racing. Hydrogen can be converted into e-fuels that can be used in aeroplanes, heavy lifting equipment and heavy machinery, such as bulldozers, lorries, and maybe buses and public transport, for that matter. The grid is not needed for that. All this hydrogen can be stored in all the gas tanks we have in the country. This is where the Government has to take the lead and has to take a risk.

As Senator Chambers said, we do not want to find ourselves behind in ten years' time. While ten years is not a long time, it is as regards this issue. We could fall very far behind. This form of energy is our oil. We have this "oil" on our coastline. I welcome the auction that took place in the past number of weeks in respect of the east coast, but it all about the east coast and there is nothing on the west coast. I presume that is because of grid connection, in the main.It will take years to get wind up and running on the west coast. If somebody wanted to construct a wind farm in the morning, with planning, you would not see five years passing before the turbines would start turning. That is a very slow process. That is why the Government has to be hands on. While it was said that this is an all-of-government approach, somebody in the Government has to lead the way on this fairly quickly.

I raise the issue of onshore where we have wind farms and solar farms. There is a problem with farmers regarding entitlements and farm payments. I think if more than half a farm goes to wind, the farmer loses their entitlement. Farmers will not go down that road. They do want to lose their entitlements. It is an area the Government has to look into and see what can be done.

I raise an issue I have raised on a number of occasions regarding objections to wind farms or any sort of farm or project. We saw it with the Naas dual carriageway, for instance, where there were objections. Snails held up that dual carriageway for years. There are various other instances. The connection of the road from Ballina to Castlebar and the bridge over the River Moy were stopped because we would have displacement of the freshwater pearl mussel. A wind farm in Mayo faced major objections because it would displace red grouse. The red grouse is nesting now under the wind turbines.

I ask the Department to carry out an assessment of where all of these species were displaced and see whether they are back and what has happened. I asked this on a number of occasions but nobody seems to run with it. All of the species that have been displaced by various projects have come back. On Stephen’s Green, for instance, if there were no buildings and the Government were to put them up today, everybody would be giving out that it was displacing the birds. However, they are all there and eating out of your hand. They have not moved away because of buildings, people, traffic or anything. They have come back. It is an area that should be explored. If species are displaced, do they come back? I would say that they have in most cases. I can vouch for the red grouse coming back to a wind farm where they are nesting now in County Mayo.

Lynn Boylan (Sinn Fein)
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I think we are all in agreement in the House, which is a nice position to be in. We all accept that Ireland has a massive potential to develop its offshore wind generating capacity. It is important to reflect that, as a country, we are lucky in that we have a very small minority of people who do not support both the climate targets and the potential for our offshore wind. If it is done right, our offshore wind potential could overhaul our economy, that is, if we seize the opportunity to create national wealth and not just facilitate corporate profits and we create good jobs and indigenous industry and not just rely on far-off countries to do the work for us.

However, there are a number of areas of concern in order for us to achieve the targets. I wish to discuss some of them and some have already been flagged. We need the enabling infrastructure in place, which includes the planning system, the grid, the ports, the necessary regulation, the collaboration and the skilled workforce. We can accept that due to decades of inaction by successive Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael Governments, we have fallen way behind. We are world leaders in terms of intermittent energy and our grid being able to handle that. However, we have had a decade of inactivity in this country. It can be sometimes depressing to look at what could have been when one looks at Denmark and Scotland. To use that awful phrase, we are where we are. At least now we are going in the right direction and seeing that offshore wind potential being tapped into.

The planning system is a major concern. It is slow, adversarial and wracked with uncertainty. That is why Sinn Féin supports reform of the planning system and An Bord Pleanála. That also needs to be done correctly and not by reducing democratic oversight by communities or interested bodies. We called for greater resourcing of An Bord Pleanála in our alternative budget. We need greater resources to be provided not just to An Bord Pleanála but also to the Commission for Regulation of Utilities, CRU, EirGrid, and the newly formed maritime area regulation authority, MARA. We know from various Oireachtas climate committee hearings that those organisations - certainly EirGrid and the CRU, which are in existence - have flagged the fact that they are constantly looking out to get the workforce required to deliver on this potential for offshore wind.

The other thing we also want to see resourced is the full range of notifiable bodies and those environmental bodies that work to protect biodiversity and nature. It is correct that environmental bodies flag if there is an endangered or protected species where planning will go ahead. The problem is around the statutory timeframes for decision making and also the mitigation measures that might need to be put in place. In order to do their job properly, the environmental NGOs need to be properly resourced as well, especially given that they have not grown in size but the number of planning applications that they will have to deal with now that may have adverse effects on the environment and biodiversity will increase. Therefore, they also need to be properly resourced.

We also need to deliver on the designated marine area plans. It is critical that we strike the right balance between reducing emissions but also protecting our marine wildlife. It is important to note that not only can we be world leaders in terms of our offshore wind potential, we also have an opportunity to be world leaders in marine research, particularly around the indicator species that are living in our marine habitats that can be warning signals around increasing climate change. We could do that. We need to protect those habitats if we want to tap into that potential.

I welcome that the offshore auction delivered a low price or a price of €86, I think. However, we have concerns still around onshore wind and its price. It is one of the highest in Europe. We again call on the Minister to do what we have been calling for for a long time in Sinn Féin, which is that cross-government high level task force to work with industry and stakeholders to identify what is causing renewables, particularly onshore, to be so out of kilter with our European counterparts. That then has a knock-on impact for people’s electricity bills.

We also have concern around the ports. There is only one port on the island that has the infrastructure that is needed and it is in Belfast. Without more offshore-ready ports, we will either completely miss our climate targets or the wind farms will be built elsewhere. We could be growing jobs in Wexford, Cork, Limerick and elsewhere, but instead, those jobs could go to Britain or mainland Europe. It is important we address that and get our ports up to capacity.

The final thing I want to touch on is demand reduction. The Government has a target of delivering 80% renewable electricity by 2030, the heavy lifting of which will be done by offshore wind. Sinn Féin has been calling for that target since 2019, so we absolutely welcome the increased ambition. However, we need to be careful about targets that are based on a proportion of demand because we need to be reducing overall electricity demand. A 20% slice of a very large pie, even if it is 20% of fossil fuels, can be much greater than 30% of a smaller pie. I have concerns regarding a recent response to parliamentary question that received from the Minister, Deputy Ryan. There are no workers in the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications dedicated to demand reduction. I seek clarity as to whether that is the case. Certainly, as for the parliamentary response, it seems that a lot of staff are dedicated to demand-side management, which is a very different thing, but none dedicated to demand reduction. I call on the Minister to put in place expertise in demand reduction.

Ossian Smyth (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
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I thank the Senators for their input. I will address the points that were made in the order I heard them. I will start with Senator Garvey, who pointed out that Moneypoint is facing a future transformation. Moneypoint has huge grid connection and is clearly an ideal location for future renewable energy development and hydrogen development. It will be a location for innovation, investment and employment in Clare. It will transform from being a place where coal was burned to a place for clean energy. I am sure Senator Garvey will be watching this carefully.One of the points the Senator made relates to her concern about having sufficient supply of skilled workers to do these tasks. When we think about just transition, we often think about people who are involved in peat-burning, coal-burning or in other types of dirty energy production. There are many other jobs throughout society that will also transform. People who are involved in oil or gas prospecting have skills in seabed surveying, for example. Those skills are transferable if those people can access transfer coursed. I have met people in those industries who are looking for that type of transfer.

The Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, Deputy Harris, has developed strategies around green training and green skills procurement. The Minister for the Environment, Climate and Communications, Deputy Eamon Ryan, is chairing the offshore energy committee. Part of the brief of that committee is to ensure there are sufficient skills in that area. I take Senator Garvey's point that in a location such as Clare, hybrid training will be important. It is important that people can take part in courses without having to attend on site every day. Those points were well made.

Senator Chambers referred to the challenge on the west coast. There are a number of challenges to offshore wind on the west coast. The water is choppy and deep. However, there are enormous wind resources available on the west coast. It is far windier there. I see that when I visit the west of Ireland. I see trees bent in a particular direction by the wind. It is obviously a big and untapped resource. One of the challenges the Senator did not mention is that it is such a beautiful location. These are sensitive locations and it is difficult to harness wind energy without affecting that. It is for that reason floating wind turbines are more likely to be deployed in the west than on the east coast. Floating wind turbines are not yet a mature technology. They are being used in pilot programmes. I saw them off the coast of Portugal. I would support the development of pilot programmes for floating wind turbines between now and ten years' time, which is the likely timescale before they are deployed. Of course, planning is starting now and the auctions will happen in a couple of years' time. It is not like we will be asking where to start in the 2030s. However, the Senator is absolutely right to point out that the planning must happen.

Senator Chambers is concerned that there is not sufficient grid connection. She is right. We need additional billions of euro for EirGrid, which has a multiyear investment programme. That is part of the national development plan. A part of my Department's added responsibility in respect of delivery on the national development plan is to ensure those types of projects are delivered. Transferring energy through the grid is not the only way to move energy. The hydrogen strategy, which was mentioned by Senator Burke, allows for energy to be moved without electricity cables. Exactly what form that will take is not yet clear. Our hydrogen strategy is coming out this year. There are proposals around whether the energy will be put into the form of ammonia, shipped in liquid form or moved through pipelines. All of this is future technology at this stage but it is critical. Serious conversations on the issue are taking place between national governments. The German and Dutch Governments have had discussions with the Irish Government over the purchase of our hydrogen in the future, and we are setting up supply lines between our countries for that purpose. The issue is being taken seriously. Memorandums of understanding have been signed, for example, between the Port of Cork and the Port of Amsterdam. That type of work is also going on with the Germans.

I will turn to consider fishing and the relationship between the fishing industry and the offshore wind industry. Senator Chambers pointed out that it does not all have to be bad. She and Senator Burke made the point that there is a possibility for biodiversity gain and for environment improvement in the spawning of fish in a protected area near renewable energy. The largest area that is safe for birds in my constituency, a bird sanctuary, is in an area that was artificially created when a railway was built 150 years ago. It is possible for man-made infrastructure to result in an improvement in biodiversity. In environmental impact assessment reports, we cannot assume that every impact on the environment is negative or that every threat is 100% guaranteed to happen. We must balance the positives and the negatives.

I was glad to hear Senator Boylan say that her party supports the reform of the planning system. She did say, however, that she is concerned there will be a limit or reduction in respect of access to justice. I agree with and support that point. She mentioned a decade of inactivity. While there is no point in regretting the past, it is worth noting that other European countries have moved ahead to develop offshore wind in the past decade, a time when we did not do so. We developed our onshore wind well. We are one of the best countries in the world for onshore wind but we did nothing in respect of offshore wind at a time when we had all the resources to do so. It takes five to seven years to start from absolutely nothing in an industry to having offshore wind turbines. It is a job this Government is doing in the knowledge it will not be there to harvest the fruits because it will be the second half of the decade when offshore wind energy is delivered. We can look at Scotland and how well it is doing, but we must acknowledge that Scotland has been at it for longer. It has developed its industry and has the knowledge and supply systems in place, as well as all of the industry that has built up around offshore wind. It is now cheaper to deploy wind in Scotland than it is in Ireland because the Scots are set up for it. We will be in that situation in the future. That is certainly something to consider and learn from. Members of the Joint Committee on the Environment, Climate and Communications visited Scottish wind farms to learn about what is involved.

Overall, this debate has been worth having. It is important that we put on the record the Government's plans for the future. When the industry is looking at investing in Ireland and other countries are considering making deals with Ireland over the trading of future energy in the form of hydrogen or electricity, they want to know what our strategies are, what our targets are, how many GW of wind we are going to deliver, how much hydrogen we are going to be producing and by what date. They want to see clear plans in place for all of that. There are many commercial companies involved. Up to 20 large offshore wind companies are competing and engaging all the time with the Department in respect of these options. We had a very competitive auction. The reason we had good results from that is because many companies competed. Those auction results are a reflection of the belief of the industry of those companies' ability to work in Ireland and co-operate. They believe the system is going to work because Ireland is a place in which to do business. For the future, Ireland is well placed for the delivery of offshore wind energy. It is something we can regret not having done earlier but we know we have enormous potential for the future. We will be above 30 GW within two decades and that is something that will provide our country with improved resilience, self-sufficiency and independence. It will allow us to withstand the types of shocks we have seen in recent years. Those types of shocks can always happen. We are an island nation. We need to protect ourselves and we need to be able to power our own country.