Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I am very pleased to bring the Bill before the Seanad this evening. As colleagues know, this is a wide-ranging Bill that will improve our criminal law. It will help combat domestic, sexual and gender-based violence, DSGBV, tackle organised crime, enhance public safety and improve the efficiency and effectiveness of our legal system.

Given its wide scope, I will only touch on the most significant provisions in the time available. However, I am very happy to address specific provisions in more detail as the Bill proceeds through the House. I will turn first to measures on domestic, sexual and gender-based violence. Last year, the Minister, Deputy McEntee, launched the Zero Tolerance plan, the third national strategy on DSGBV. Its aim is to bring about a change in attitudes and in systems to ensure there is zero tolerance in society for such violence. Part of achieving this is ensuring that our criminal law is fit for purpose; with the right offences in place, to reflect the crimes that are, sadly, all too commonplace in our society, with perpetrators punished in a way that reflects the harm their actions cause, and with appropriate protections in place to protect and support victims and to prevent escalation.

To that end, the Bill will introduce a stand-alone offence of stalking under the Non-Fatal Offences Against the Person Act 1997. I acknowledge the work of Senator Lisa Chambers in this regard and the engagement that we have had. Stalking is an extremely serious and invasive crime that can cause devastating psychological distress. It may also be a precursor to acts of direct physical violence. While stalking behaviours can be prosecuted as harassment under the 1997 Act, the evidence shows that having a specific and stand-alone offence of stalking leads to greater awareness, an increase in the number of victims coming forward and an increase in the number of prosecutions.

The new offence will cover any conduct that puts someone in fear of violence, or causes serious alarm and distress such as to have an adverse effect on the person's day-to-day life. It will carry a maximum sentence of ten years' imprisonment. As Senator Chambers is now arriving, I again acknowledge her work on this matter and the engagement that we have had.

The Bill will also significantly widen the existing harassment offence. This offence remains important, covering harassment behaviours that are broader than stalking. It is committed where the perpetrator's persistent conduct seriously interferes with another's peace and privacy, or causes alarm, distress or harm. These criminal offences will be complemented by civil restraining orders. These are vital additions to the law, which will allow earlier intervention and do not require a criminal prosecution. They may be applied for by the affected person or by a member of the Garda on their behalf. Procedurally, they are similar to the system already in place for domestic violence orders, but they will apply in a broader range of circumstances.

I acknowledge the work that Members of this House have done in on these issues, in particular Senator Lisa Chambers. With her, I have also had the opportunity to meet Eve McDowell and Una Ring, the founders of Stalking Ireland. Eve and Una have shown incredible bravery in recounting what happened to them and sharing their experiences, supporting others who have been affected and, most crucially, in pursuing their tireless campaign to bring these issues to the fore. We do this for them and as a result of their work and advocacy, and to ensure greater protection and safety for women and all people in the country.

The Department has benefited from many individual and civil society group submissions on this Bill. They have been hugely valuable, and have been taken into account throughout its development. I publicly thank all those organisations and individuals who have fed into the development of this Bill.

I will move to assault causing harm. This is a crucially important offence in practice, both for domestic violence, and more broadly. As it stands, the offence of assault causing harm under the 1997 Act carries a maximum sentence of five years. While a life sentence can be imposed for an assault causing serious harm, that covers only a limited subset of the worst assaults. Most assaults can be prosecuted only at the lower levels, especially where the victim has fully or mostly recovered. Those assaults may involve stabbing, broken bones, multiple perpetrators, deliberate infliction of severe pain, attacks against vulnerable persons or attack causing long-term mental detriment. Even where a judge considers the offence as among the most serious, he or she is limited in his or her sentencing to five years and may have to reduce that further to reflect mitigating factors such as a guilty plea. The Bill will address this by replacing the maximum five-year sentence with a maximum sentence of ten years' imprisonment. The purpose of this change is not to increase every sentence. Courts will continue to weigh the gravity of the offence and the appropriate aggravating and mitigating factors, but they will now have a more appropriate range of sentences available, which is absolutely crucial.

The Bill also introduces stand-alone offences dealing with non-fatal strangulation. Strangulation is a common feature of domestic abuse and a strong predictor of even more serious violence. It is frequently used as a tool of coercion and is often accompanied by threats to kill. It is overwhelmingly perpetrated by men against women. The undercharging of strangulation and other forms of asphyxiation has been identified as a problem in several countries. The lack of observable injuries means that the offender's conduct may be minimised and charged only with the equivalent of the least serious assault in Ireland. That is not acceptable and, in recognition of these issues, the Garda Commissioner has advocated for the introduction of a stand-alone provision. This Bill will put in place two new offences, under sections 3A and 4A of the 1997 Act, aligned in terms of penalties with the offences of assault causing harm and causing serious harm, respectively.The effect is that strangulation will be treated at least as an offence of the seriousness of assault causing harm regardless of whether observable harm or injury is caused or proven. This will be subject to a maximum penalty of ten years.

On organised crime, the Bill provides for an increase in the penalty for conspiracy to murder. Gangland murders are not committed by individuals acting alone. Even when the good work of the Garda prevents a murder, the intent and plan to murder still exist and should be punished appropriately. The Bill will increase the penalty for conspiracy to murder from a maximum of ten years to a maximum of life imprisonment.

The Bill will also introduce a statutory framework for witness anonymity in criminal trials. The ability of witnesses to give evidence without disclosing their identity to the defence is necessary under certain limited circumstances, for example, to protect law enforcement personnel conducting ongoing covert investigations or to protect the safety of a particular witness. This is recognised by both our domestic courts and the European Court of Human Rights. However, Irish courts have pointed out that there is no current statutory basis for this practice and that courts have limited guidance in determining whether and how the facility should be granted. The new provision will ensure that a court has a clear legal basis for determining whether and under what conditions such evidence should be allowed and also ensures appropriate safeguards are in place. The default position, of course, is that a person should know the identity of the witness giving the evidence against him or her. The court must have regard for this general principle. Anonymous evidence cannot be allowed if it would undermine the ability of a person to receive a fair trial. Other factors to be considered are set out in the Bill.

The Bill provides for several amendments to firearms legislation. Most significantly, it introduces a cap on the licensing of semi-automatic centre-fire rifles. Senators may be aware that a semi-automatic centre-fire rifle is a rifle that does not need to be manually reloaded. This cap is motivated by public safety considerations and concerns of the Garda regarding these weapons, and it is in line with an announcement in 2015 by the then Minister for Justice. I refer to this measure as a cap as opposed to an outright ban given that it will allow persons who held a firearm certificate for these types of rifles before September 2015 to continue to renew their certificates. I am satisfied that this is both an appropriate and balanced measure.

The Bill contains several procedural enhancements, notably in respect of medical and forensic evidence, to reduce the need for medical professionals and forensic scientists to appear in court regarding non-contentious evidence.

In addition to introducing the Bill as it stands, I intend to introduce certain additional measures on Committee Stage. This morning, I obtained Government approval to propose an increase to the maximum penalty for an assault on gardaí and other peace officers from seven to 12 years.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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Hear, hear.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I am conscious of the dedication and commitment of our front-line workers, as I know Senators are. I am also conscious of the risks they take. I attended a Garda memorial day on Saturday at which we paid tribute to the 89 men of An Garda Síochána who lost their lives in the line of duty. We live in a country where there is great respect for the police. Surveys indicate that we live in a country whose confidence in its police force is among the highest in the EU. However, when there is an assault or attack, it is not enough for those of us in here just to condemn it, wring our hands and say how sorry we are; we, as legislators, actually have to change the law to send a very clear message of solidarity and support to gardaí. We should not just send it to gardaí but also to people working in the ambulance service and the fire brigade, peace officers and people providing medical assistance, such as nurses and doctors, and those who help them. We are sending a message to the Judiciary, the courts, that under this legislation and the Committee Stage amendment that will follow, the maximum sentence for ramming an emergency vehicle or attacking or assaulting members of the emergency services will be 12 years rather than seven. There is evidence that an increase in maximum sentences sees an upward trajectory or pressure in respect of sentences given. I know I have support across all parties in Seanad Éireann in this regard.

I expect Government approval to be sought in the coming weeks regarding several further matters. These include a broadening of the protection against cross-examination in person by the accused to cover a much broader range of offences beyond sexual offences. This is really important. There was a Private Members' Bill in this House on extending the protections so victims would not be re-traumatised. Other matters on which Government approval are to be sought include measures to protect the identity of the alleged victim in harassment and stalking cases; provision for civil restraining orders to be made on an interim basis; provision for certain technical amendments in respect of child sentencing, particularly where the child becomes an adult while an appeal is pending; and several technical and consequential amendments, including measures to address certain drafting issues in the Communications (Retention of Data) Act 2022 and other Acts.

Work is ongoing with the Attorney General's office on complex amendments to the Criminal Justice (Mutual Assistance) Act 2008 to facilitate co-operation with the European Public Prosecutor's Office. It is intended that these will also be introduced on Committee Stage, but that is dependent on the work being completed in sufficient time.

I thank Senators for their work on this Bill so far and look forward to discussing it in this House.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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I welcome the Minister to the House for the debate on this timely legislation. I thank him for setting out its provisions in his opening remarks. I acknowledge and salute his work and commitment as Minister for Justice since he took the job. I do not mean to embarrass him in saying this. He hit the ground running on day one. I remember seeing a report on the 9 o'clock news showing him down in Limerick. I thought to myself this guy has only just become the Minister for Justice and here he is getting involved in issues locally. It is a measure of his style, commitment and hands-on approach. According to media reports, the Minister, Deputy McEntee, is due back on 1 June, which is not long away. The Minister, Deputy Harris, is ambitious, determined and rightly wants to get things over the line. I see the importance and significance of this legislation and his desire to get it over the line. I wish him well with it.

One of the great things about RTÉ on a Tuesday is that we tend to get a little snippet of information about what the Cabinet is doing. This morning, Tommy Mescal had a report on the RTÉ website with a headline stating that the Government has approved increased sentences for assaults on gardaí. I thought that was brilliant and scrolled down further. The report states: "Minister Simon Harris [is] to increase sentences for assaults on gardaí and other emergency service workers." The Cabinet, it is reported, is set to agree to the Minister's proposal. In fact, as he has outlined, it already is agreed. Things have moved on since this morning. That is welcome. The maximum sentence for assaulting or obstructing a member of An Garda Síochána will increase from seven years to 12. I salute this. It is brave and the right thing to do. Everyone in these Houses supports parliamentary democracy and the rule of law. This measure is critically important. I understand it will apply to assaults and threats against gardaí, including ramming of vehicles, as well as against emergency workers, including hospital staff, prison officers, fire brigade crews, ambulance personnel and members of the Defence Forces. The Minister indicated today that he intends to bring forward further proposals on Committee Stage to give effect to these proposals. That is welcome and important. Interestingly, the Taoiseach commented today that assaults on gardaí and other emergency service workers were more serious offences than others and that the proposals before the Cabinet are a gesture of solidarity with those personnel. We in this House should join in that gesture of solidarity. As the Minister said, it is not enough to condemn such assaults and move on. We must do something and we have an opportunity now to do something. We live in a parliamentary democracy and I salute the Minister for bringing forward this legislation.

I have a few observations on its provisions. The Minister has rightly referred to measures on domestic, sexual and gender-based violence and the introduction of a stand-alone offence of stalking. His predecessor as Minister, Deputy McEntee, dealt at great length with this issue in the House and we had a great debate about it. We discussed the famous and well-documented report, Travelling in a Woman's Shoes, which was about the issues experienced by women using public transport. The report contained a number of strong recommendations. It is interesting that many of the key issues raised in it were referenced by the Minister in his opening statement. I thank him and his officials for acknowledging and taking on board those issues. I also acknowledge the people who put the report together. The issues addressed in the legislation include harassment offences, civil restraining orders and assault causing harm. There is also provision for an offence of non-fatal strangulation. It is great to see these provisions embedded in the Bill. They will be broadly welcomed across the House.

The Bill also addresses organised crime and conspiracy to murder. These are really serious issues. The question arises as to why they are only now being addressed. However, the Minister is doing something about them. The provision for a statutory framework for witness anonymity is really important. The Bill addresses a substantial number of issues, including amendments to firearms legislation. That has to be welcomed as it is long overdue. The Bill contains provision for several procedural enhancements, notably in respect of medical and forensic evidence, to reduce the need for medical professionals and forensic scientists to appear in court in regard to non-contentious evidence. That is really important. There is a lot of controversy around this issue, with many people being held up in a process that can go on for a substantial time. We need to streamline it in a fair, reasonable and balanced way that allows all the evidence to be put out there and any conflicting issues around that to be teased out.

I commend and support the Bill. It is well overdue. As the Minister said, it is important that we send a clear message that we stand in solidarity with An Garda Síochána. Increasing the maximum sentencing for assaults on gardaí from seven to 12 years for the offences outlined is welcome. The need for measures to protect the identity of alleged victims in harassment and stalking cases is constantly raised with all Deputies and Senators and everyone in public life. I am not sure whether that problem is getting worse. It has always been there but at least we are now talking about and addressing it. Stalking, intimidation and so on are very frightening for anyone to experience. Many people have suffered for far too long in isolation and the fear they have contributed in some way to what is happening to them or somehow brought it on themselves. The legislation sets out with great clarity the message about what it seeks to do in this regard. I commend and support it.

Lisa Chambers (Fianna Fail)
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I am sharing time with Senator Gallagher. The Minister is welcome to the House. It is an important day for a number of people who are watching and listening to this debate. I acknowledge Eve McDowell and Una Ring, who are observing proceedings from their home locations in counties Cork and Sligo. I thank the Minister for the acknowledgement in his opening remarks of the work done by Eva, Una and me in bringing forward the Non-Fatal Offences Against the Person (Amendment) (Stalking) Bill 2021 in the House last year. I had to smile at the following comment he made in his opening statement:

While stalking behaviours can already be prosecuted as harassment... the evidence shows that having a specific and stand-alone offence of stalking leads to greater awareness, an increase in the number of victims coming forward and an increase in the number of prosecutions.

I felt as though I was reading one of my own contributions to the previous debate. It took us quite a while to convince the Department that this was the case. When we first went to the Department, before the Minister's time, we were told that this legislation was not needed. However, we kept working on it. Thanks to the campaign of Eve McDowell and Una RIng and the support they got from the public, we ultimately changed the minds of the Department of Justice. It would be remiss of me not to mention Ashling Murphy and the effect her murder had. I think it was within a week of that happening that we received a phone call to come for a meeting, and we were told our Bill would be progressed. We acknowledge her legacy today. We also acknowledge the many other people, mainly women, who have lost their lives. We acknowledge the great progress we are now making on justice issues, as well as advancing and updating our laws to better protect victims, predominantly women, who are victims of these crimes.

The Minister spoke about why this Bill is needed. Other points will be really important, and we will come back to them during the other Stages of the Bill. We need to raise awareness of this new offence, as is now being done with the sharing of intimate images. We also need an awareness campaign for stalking. We need greater enforcement of these new laws. That will require training for the Garda Síochána and the courts. We also need greater supports for victims, so it is not just about enacting a new law. We also need to have all the wraparound supports to make sure that we make a success of this new legislation. I thank the Minister for the work he has done on this. We have seen a lot of him in his new role as Minister for Justice. He has been everywhere. I welcome the fact that the Minister has progressed this legislation.

Robbie Gallagher (Fianna Fail)
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I too welcome the Minister back to the House to discuss this important legislation. I very much welcome the proposals contained within this Bill. I would like to take this opportunity to give credit here to my colleague, Senator Chambers, who along with Eve McDowell and Una Ring, campaigned very hard for this. As Senator Chambers mentioned, it sometimes felt as if the door was not just closed but firmly locked, but she persisted. I am delighted that her fingerprints are all over this legislation, which on a broader level goes mostly to protect women and that is to be welcomed.

I also welcome the fact that, as outlined to me here by way of a Commencement matter last week, the Minister's intention to go a good way towards increasing the sentences for those who assault our emergency workers. As the Minister mentioned in his contribution, it is not good enough for us to make statements about what should or should not happen; action is needed in this particular area. I thank the Minister for acting on that legislation that I introduced as far back as 2019. If Senator Chambers felt that the door was closed or perhaps even locked, I even had difficulty finding the door to officials in the Department, so to speak. However, I will give credit where credit is due. I do not want to embarrass the Minister with all the plaudits he is getting here this afternoon. I can assure him that it is a one-off. Normal service will resume very shortly. However, on a more serious note, I have reached out to the Minister and his officials and in fairness, I have found that the door was open wide for me. I welcome that engagement.

Our emergency workers go out to serve us all. As the Minister mentioned, in many cases not all of them who put their uniforms on in the morning get the opportunity to take those uniforms off in the evening. That is something we should all remember. It is vitally important that we as legislators, do all we can to protect those who go out every day to protect us. I welcome that the Minister has introduced this strengthening of legislation to protect our emergency workers against assault.

There is now also a specific offence of ramming an emergency vehicle in the course of its work. I suggested this a number of years ago. I commend the Minister and I thank him for listening to us and his actions in this area. His short stint in the Department of Justice will be remembered as a very active one and the Minister can be very proud of the fact that he has introduced legislation that will make very important changes to people's lives and I commend him on that.

Mark Wall (Labour)
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I too welcome the Minister to the House this evening. The Labour Party welcomes the introduction of Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2022. This Bill is long overdue and will bring a number of improvements to our criminal law. I am particularly pleased to see proposed improvement provisions to help with domestic, sexual and gender-based violence, as well as provisions to tackle organised crime. Importantly, the Bill also includes new measures to address stalking and harassment.

We have all read, listened to in our clinics and seen horrific reports from victims of domestic abuse over recent months and years. We have heard accounts of mental and physical torture, stabbings and other abuses. The victims of these horrific tortures deserve much more when their cases come to court. Simply put, the sentences that were handed down to their abusers were far too low, in many cases. In previous discussions on various justice Bills with the present Minister and his predecessor as well, we have spoken about trying to encourage more victims to come forward. This point has been raised by the Dublin Rape Crisis Centre in a number of contributions they have made on previous Bills. I also acknowledge as the Minister did earlier, the Bill that Senator Vincent P. Martin brought to try to help victims to come forward. I think that is a very important step in this process as well.

Many victims of domestic abuse have told me that one of the biggest barriers to people naming their abuser was the brevity of the prison term their abuser might receive. This is why I feel the increase in the potential sentence for assault in domestic cases from five to ten years will be very welcome news for many of those victims and will encourage more victims to come forward.

The new measures on stalking and harassment are also very welcome. Stalking is an intrusive crime that can have devastating effects on the victims and their families. It has been rightly said and it is important that we now have a stand-alone offence in relation to the offence of stalking. Evidence from other countries points to a stand-alone offence raising awareness and encouraging more victims to come forward, which of course leads to an increase in prosecutions.

It is right that we acknowledge the work done by Senator Chambers on this Bill. It is also right to acknowledge the campaigns of Eve McDowell and Una Ring in getting us to this day. These women have shown outstanding bravery and commitment in getting us to a position where stalking will be a stand-alone offence. Both these brave women have put aside the terror they experienced to help others and tackle what they saw as a grossly inadequate legislation.

I too want to be associated with the words about today's announcement as to what is happening at Cabinet regarding the issue of assaults on members of the Garda in the course of their duties. The Minister mentioned the 89 gardaí who did not come home when they put on that uniform. It is important that we acknowledge those officers and their families. We need to show solidarity in supporting those families and all those who put on that uniform. I welcome in particular that this legislation will also include hospital staff, prison officers, fire brigade crews, ambulance personnel and members of the Defence Forces because they put their lives on the line for us every day when they put on their uniform. I am glad that the door was found by Senator Gallagher and others and we now have this legislation coming through today. Over the past couple of weeks, we have seen too many assaults on those people who put their lives on the line for us and this legislation being brought forward on Committee Stage will be welcomed by many and will be supported by the Labour Party.

This is a very important step forward in tackling crime in this country. This long overdue legislation has been campaigned for by many brave women. The Labour Party supports this legislation and will work with the Minister on getting it through the various stages in this House

Niall Ó Donnghaile (Sinn Fein)
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Bainim fáilte a chuir roimh an Aire agus fáilte a chuir roimh an reachtaíocht atá os ár gcomhair anocht. I welcome the Minister to the Seanad. As other colleagues have already said, this Bill is very welcome. The main focus of it is protecting the victims of serious crime and ensuring that two particularly brutal and violent actions, namely, non-fatal strangulation and suffocation, are brought into the legislation, as well as ensuring that there are laws that deal with these serious and terrifying crimes. Both are now stand-alone offences. This legislation is coming from a Government commitment that it will implement a zero tolerance strategy, particularly with regards to violence, stalking, domestic violence, sexual violence and violence against women and to tackle effectively organised crime. It is also very welcome in respect of those various commitments. Any measures that could support victims of stalking, harassment, gender-based violence and organised crime is of course to be welcomed. The Bill also includes new measures to address stalking and harassment. The proposed measures to deal with stalking, particularly naming stalking as an offence, lift its public profile and that is also important.In doing so, people are more inclined to report it and realise the gravity of stalking for the person being stalked. We know that stalking ruins lives, it causes devastating psychological distress and sometimes, as we know all too well, tragically, worse again.

Under this Bill, anyone convicted of the new stalking offence will face up to ten years in prison. I too, like Senator Wall, want to commend Eve McDowell and Una Ring on their tireless campaigning to make stalking a stand-alone offence, and thank organisations like Safe Ireland and Women's Aid and the many people who have advocated and worked hard to bring this Bill to the point we are at this evening. I also wish to acknowledge the work of our Seanad colleague, Senator Chambers, and other female Members of the House for their work on these issues.

The Bill also provides for court orders restraining stalking behaviour alongside protections for victims during the court process. That too, as we know from other deliberations around justice legislation, is an important aspect of this Bill and the change that is needed. I am glad to see that the Bill will allow victims to obtain these orders with the changes made by the legislation we are discussing here. The introduction of special measures within the courts to protect victims of stalking, harassment and non-fatal fatal strangulation is also welcome because it will offer some protection to victims who must face the assailant in court settings.

There are other aspects of this Bill, which is broad in its make-up, as the Minister has outlined. I am sure parts of it will be examined in greater detail as it progresses through the House. For now, on Second Stage, I want to say that this Bill overall is a significant and positive step in the right direction, and I and Sinn Féin support it.

Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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I thank the Minister for joining us in the Chamber. I welcome the opportunity to speak on this important omnibus Bill. I begin by commending the Ministers, Deputy Harris and Deputy McEntee, on the hard work they have undertaken on addressing domestic, sexual and gender-based violence in Ireland, elements of which are tackled within certain sections of this Bill. While I welcome many of the provisions in the Bill, I have some concerns and will take some time to briefly outline those concerns.

I welcome the fact the Bill will create a stand-alone offence of stalking and harassment, replacing the existing offence of harassment contained in the Non-Fatal Offences Against the Person Act. Providing for these stand-alone offences will assist Ireland in achieving the full ratification of the 2019 Istanbul Convention. The standards of conduct set out for the proposed offence of stalking are quite clear in the Bill but I feel the standard of conduct set out in respect of the offence of harassment could benefit from a more robust and explicit provision, and I would welcome any input the Minister might be able to offer in this respect. The Istanbul Convention stresses, at Article 33, the importance of specifically criminalising the impairment of a person's psychological integrity through violence, coercion or threat. I would ask the Minister why an explicit reference to the potential psychological impacts of stalking and harassment was not included in the Bill. Perhaps it is the case that references in section 23 to alarm, distress and harm may provide sufficient legislative protection but I ask the Minister to clarify the rationale behind this.

I note also the concerns expressed by certain domestic violence groups about the inclusion of the qualifier of the harm caused by stalking as harassment having a substantial adverse impact on his or her usual day-to-day activities. The focus in instances of stalking and harassment should be on the conduct of the perpetrator of these offences, not on the adverse impact of this behaviour on the victim, which may be difficult to prove in many instances. This could, for example, cause issues in terms of timely reporting of stalking and harassment to the Garda if victims feel they cannot prove the harm caused to them, which risks further harm. Additionally, it could work against victims who actively choose not to alter their day-to-day activities in an attempt to demonstrate their resilience.

It is important to acknowledge that the introduction of these new offences will not necessarily be enough to restrict the offending behaviour in and of itself. This demonstrates the importance of the development of education campaigns and the provision of specialist support services to target problematic behaviours, such as stalking and harassment. As my understanding of these types of behaviours is that they can be quite complex to address, I invite the Minister to outline some of the other work the Government intends to undertake to support people to desist from stalking, harassment and non-fatal strangulation or suffocation.

I understand from following the Bill through its passage in the Dáil that there was some discussion about the potential for the inclusion of a provision within the Bill that would address spiking, wherein it would become a stand-alone offence, separate from the law that prohibits the poisoning of a person. An amendment was tabled by Deputy Ó Ríordáin to address this matter and there was some positive engagement between the Minister and the Deputy on the issue during Report Stage. I hope the Minister might be able to provide an update as to any engagement he has had with the Deputy, his departmental officials and the Garda Commissioner in the interim and to clarify whether he intends to introduce an amendment to address the issue during the Seanad Stages

In addition, the Minister advised during the course of the Dáil debate that he would explore the possibility of introducing additional safeguards for victims of stalking and harassment who are required to give evidence in court. Part III of the Criminal Evidence Act 1992 provides a certain level of protection, in that it facilitates the delivery of evidence through video link but I know the Minister mooted the idea of providing additional protection against cross-examination and an anonymity provision. I would welcome any updates the Minister might be able to provide in respect of these considerations.

Before I conclude, I would like to touch briefly on the proposed increase to the maximum sentence for conspiracy to murder. I want to highlight the fact that increasing the sentence length does not necessarily provide a greater deterrent to individuals and, accordingly, does not necessarily make people safer. The Law Reform Commission in its 2013 report on mandatory sentencing observed that it is unclear to what extent, if any, mandatory or presumptive sentences actually deter offending behaviour. In its 2020 report on suspended sentences, it noted that the deterrence principle has been criticised on the basis that evidence as to its efficacy as a crime desistance strategy is unconvincing.

I do not know if the Minister has ever read Albert Camus but his book, Reflections on the Guillotine, is very important when considering this issue. Even public execution did not reduce murder; the death penalty does not reduce murder. We have to be very clear when we are talking about why we are extending sentences for particular things in terms of mandatory sentencing or maximum sentencing. Is it for the victim alone in terms of justice or are we saying that the changing of sentences or maximum sentences actually deters crime? I do not think it does and I do not think there is any evidence that has ever suggested it reduces crime.

That loops back to the previous point around what else we are doing to interrupt the behaviour and not only focus on sentences as some sort of solution to crime, murder or conspiracy to murder. If the Minister does not have the answer to some of the questions I have raised, I would appreciate it if he could respond in writing. I would appreciate his comments on some of those concerns because as I will be seeking to amend the Bill, updates on some of those provisions would be helpful before I do.

Aisling Dolan (Fine Gael)
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I welcome the Minister for Justice, Deputy Harris. It is very welcome to see the Bill in the House and the significant changes it is going to make to existing laws. We live in a democracy and we have the freedom to live our lives, but that is sometimes threatened and our freedom to live our lives as we wish is taken away. When people suffer harassment, stalking and abuse, suddenly they are living in fear and their freedom and security to live as they wish has changed. Of course, it causes distress, mental health issues and psychological impacts due to the violence and abuse.

It is crucial, as was mentioned by the previous speaker, that we understand the behaviours that start at a young age. The Oireachtas education committee did a lot of work around bullying in the school environment in primary schools and secondary schools with regard to how that is tackled. It is very important that we look at how behaviours are tackled, such as bullying at a very young age and how that is being managed within our school environment with parents associations. That is all crucial.

With regard to the Bill, the Minister, Deputy McEntee, launched the zero-tolerance plan and it is very welcome to see stalking as a stand-alone offence with a maximum sentence of ten years. Of course, domestic abuse and domestic violence is a crime hidden behind doors. The Minister, Deputy Harris, might comment on a point that the Minister, Deputy McEntee, was also looking at, which is the provision of refuge places. It is something that has always arisen in Roscommon and in the county of Galway, apart from the city of Galway. County Galway is the second-largest county and we have a lack of refuge spaces for women who suffer from domestic violence and a lack of places for them to go. I know this is a priority and it is something that is being looked at but we need it to happen soon.Related to this is the offence of non-fatal strangulation. This is something that is used around coercion. It is very important that there are penalties for this as well.

The Minister mentioned the memorial for the 89 gardaí who have lost their lives in the line of duty. The most recent was the sad loss of Detective Garda Colm Horkan in Roscommon. This is very close to the hearts of people in Roscommon. Increasing this sentence from seven years to 12 years is important. How do we look at the recruitment into the Garda Síochána? How do we show that there is safety for members in the Garda Síochána? It is crucial that we see an increase because I know there is a challenge. We have many demands in different sectors of our workforce but it is a vocation to become a garda. To be a member of a community, particularly in our rural and country communities, it is a vocation. A garda is a member of that community for a lifetime and even after retirement, gardaí take an active part. How can we encourage young men and women to consider this as a role that is a vocation and one that has a measure of respect in our communities and that it is something that they would consider as their career?

I very much welcome that this is also for emergency service workers. I know from speaking with people who are working in Portiuncula University Hospital emergency department that there has been an increase in the levels of difficulty and assaults in an emergency department environment. These relate to the challenges we are seeing around addictions for alcohol drug abuse. We need to take an holistic look at this. How can we ensure that we have supports for drugs and alcohol addiction centres? The hospital in Ballinasloe is also the hospital for Athlone, for example, and covers an enormous catchment area. We are seeing challenges with aggression in the hospital. Are other supports for that being put in place in towns in an interdepartmental way?

I very much welcome this Bill. I hope it will act as a deterrent. As has been mentioned, the communication on it will be absolutely crucial. We are introducing a safe environment and encouraging people who take this on as a vocation. By helping people in the emergency services and in An Garda Síochána, it will be reflected in recruitment in time to come.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I thank and all the Senators for their contributions and for the widespread general support for at least the thrust of the legislation. While Senator Ruane and others quite rightly want more detail and to tease through the issues, I welcome the broad cross-party and cross-bench support for what we are trying to do in this pretty significant Bill. I start by paying tribute to the officials in the Department of Justice. I said it in my opening remarks and I say it again now. Much of the content of the Bill has arisen from co-design and very significant engagement with civic society and individuals. The doors are wide open; there are no locks on the doors as we try to make sure we get this legislation right.

We are all united in wanting to ensure that we put every possible measure in place to combat all forms of domestic, sexual and gender-based violence. It is a priority for the Government, for the Oireachtas and for society. The Central Statistics Office, CSO, statistics indicate it is an epidemic in Irish society. It is probably an epidemic in the world but there are things that we can do. There are some things we can do legislatively, as the Bill strives to do. With the zero-tolerance strategy there are other things that require a non-legislative response, including sex education in our schools, a whole cultural change and things like the refuge spaces that Senator Dolan mentioned. That is really why we have this ambitious five-year zero-tolerance strategy, which has been welcomed by everybody. It is probably the most ambitious strategy that has been published and I commend my colleague the Minister, Deputy McEntee, on her work on it. The key now is implementation. The Government is rightly under pressure about how quickly we can now implement its very important elements.

With this Bill I believe that we are putting pillars into practice. We are creating new robust offences and protections which will serve to combat domestic, sexual and gender-based violence. I again thank Una Ring and Eve McDowell of Stalking Ireland for all of their work and campaigning. I thank them from meeting me. They have bravely shared their own experiences. They have worked tirelessly to drive a campaign which has helped to bring about the reforms that are set out in the Bill. I do not believe the Bill would have been possible without the courageous victims and survivors who shared their experiences and helped us identify where our laws needed to be strengthened. I thank our colleague, the Leader of the Seanad, Senator Chambers, for her commitment and her work on these reforms with my colleague the Minister, Deputy McEntee. I am proud to be involved in this Bill now as we have got it through the Dáil and as we progress it through the Seanad.

In response to Senator Ward's question, I am very willing to work with Senators to make sure we have the best legislation possible. I assure the Senator that where someone commits an offence as a child and ends up being prosecuted when they are an adult, we intend to legislate in that space. At the moment our intention is to legislate in a separate Bill, but I would be happy to engage with him on that matter. The Senator quite rightly said that somebody can be retraumatised by effectively being cross-examined by the perpetrator of the abuse. I acknowledge Senator Martin's Bill, as Senator Ward did, on which we intend to introduce Committee Stage amendments in that space.

In response to Senator Chambers's points, I also want to remember Ashling Murphy and her family, whom I have had the great honour of meeting on a couple of occasions in the most tragic of circumstances. We all think of Ashling and her family. Senator Chambers is right and Senator Dolan also made this point. While it is important to introduce all these laws, as we should, that needs to be backed up by other things. Coco's Law on the sharing of intimate images is a good example. A change in the law must be followed by a public awareness campaign. We changed the law on sharing intimate images. We did a survey and 50% of people in the country still did not know that it was illegal to threaten to share. We are now running that awareness campaign. I think the Department and the Government are getting better at running those awareness campaigns to back up the legislation. Along with the awareness campaign, we need to ensure that members of the Garda are equipped and trained to enforce it and to provide support for victims. I very much agree with those.

As I did when I took the Commencement matter, I acknowledge Senator Gallagher's legislation on assaults on emergency workers and ramming of emergency vehicles. I thank him for working with me to get to this point today; we have made good progress together.

I thank Senator Wall for his comments in support of the legislation and for reminding us that the change I will introduce on Committee Stage on assaults on gardaí will also apply absolutely to what we classify as peace officers, which includes a whole range of emergency workers including people in our Defence Forces.

I thank Senator Ruane for taking the opportunity to Second Stage to outline some of the areas on which she wants more detail between now and Committee Stage. My team and I will come back to her on any of the issues and will be happy to engage with her between now and Committee Stage. I will just touch on a few of them now.

I accept the point about maximum sentences. For some serious crimes, I believe the Judiciary should be able to apply a minimum tariff. That may be a discussion for a different day. The Senator asked what the purpose of maximum sentence is. I think it is actually a bit of both. First, it is about solidarity with the victim. It is about recognising that there are certain crimes that society views as being so heinous that they come with the maximum sentence. However, with conspiracy to murder, it is more about trying to align the level of violence and brutality that is intended even if it was not carried out. The Senator does not need me to explain it to her. She knows that in this city and in other parts of our country the damage that organised criminal groups do to society. While they can face maximum life sentences if they carry out the murder, sometimes the Garda stops them before the offence, but the intent was still there. If the Garda is actually successful in stopping the murder, should the penalty actually be less when we know the intent was there to murder, to maim and to cause havoc? That is the rationale behind the conspiracy to murder piece. It comes from engagement with the Garda, which has had relative success in tackling organised crime. We can also tease through that.

To use my phrase rather than the Senator's, are we getting the bar right on the stalking condition? I have no doubt that the reference to adverse consequences on day-to-day lives will be teased through on Committee Stage. I will share with her the rationale. We are trying to strike a balance regarding the offence. On the one hand, we absolutely want to ensure that it applies to appropriate cases, but we also want to position the offence as one of the utmost seriousness. We want to apply it to the appropriate cases and put it in a position that it is seen as such a serious offence. We are removing a requirement for persistence and providing for an open definition of behaviour that can constitute stalking, which I believe everybody welcomed.The risk is that if we bring too much under the label of stalking, could it inadvertently and unintentionally undermine the seriousness associated with the new defence? The reference in the definition to "causing a fear of violence or serious alarm and distress" that has an adverse impact on a victim's day-to-day life captures the essential harms caused by stalking and demonstrates the seriousness of it. Obviously harassment is a wider offence, as it absolutely should be. Again, we will have a chance to tease these matters through.

I referenced a cross-examination issue. Also, I am not in a position at this Stage to outline the specific formulation but we will return to that on Committee Stage. Similarly, with anonymity for alleged victims, I expect to bring forward an amendment on Committee Stage. Again, I cannot yet commit on the specific formulation of that amendment but I am happy to engage on that between now and then.

I wish to say to Senator Dolan that we have a very ambitious plan around refuge places. She is entirely right and we intend to see a huge increase of them, under zero tolerance. To be clear, zero tolerance is not the cap on refuge places. We will have to hit that and then go beyond to get to the Istanbul Convention target, but it is an honest view as to what we can realistically get done within the five-year period. We have been carrying out a very detailed mapping exercise and I am happy to share that with the Senator.

On recruitment and how we attract more people to join An Garda Síochána, there is a big answer to this and a whole variety of answers. We must make sure that the men and women of An Garda Síochána, the men and women who may wish to join An Garda Síochána, and the parents who may wish their son or daughter to join An Garda Síochána know that we are doing everything possible to keep people safe in the force. I think this legislation is an important step in that direction, but it is not the only step. I think bodycams - I am not talking about facial recognition technology, but actual bodycams - are an important part of this. I still cannot get over the fact that the only person at a protest without a camera is the garda. I think it is really bonkers, quite frankly. We are going to legislate for that this year, as one example. We have much more that we need to continue to do to show our gardaí that they have access to modern equipment, that we are giving them the tools they need, that we are giving them more colleagues and that when something goes wrong on the front line, we will support them with very rigorous legislation.

This is a big piece of legislation. There is an awful lot in it. We did not get to touch on every single element of it. I suppose that is the purpose of Committee Stage as we tease through it. I see the Bill as a very honest and thorough attempt to explore a number of areas where there is a need to modernise and strengthen our criminal law, to support victims better and to support gardaí better. That is ultimately what we are trying to do through all of the various parts of the Bill. I look forward to Committee Stage shortly.

Diarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
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When is it proposed to take Committee Stage?

Robbie Gallagher (Fianna Fail)
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Next Tuesday.

Diarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
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Is that agreed? Agreed.