Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

I thank and all the Senators for their contributions and for the widespread general support for at least the thrust of the legislation. While Senator Ruane and others quite rightly want more detail and to tease through the issues, I welcome the broad cross-party and cross-bench support for what we are trying to do in this pretty significant Bill. I start by paying tribute to the officials in the Department of Justice. I said it in my opening remarks and I say it again now. Much of the content of the Bill has arisen from co-design and very significant engagement with civic society and individuals. The doors are wide open; there are no locks on the doors as we try to make sure we get this legislation right.

We are all united in wanting to ensure that we put every possible measure in place to combat all forms of domestic, sexual and gender-based violence. It is a priority for the Government, for the Oireachtas and for society. The Central Statistics Office, CSO, statistics indicate it is an epidemic in Irish society. It is probably an epidemic in the world but there are things that we can do. There are some things we can do legislatively, as the Bill strives to do. With the zero-tolerance strategy there are other things that require a non-legislative response, including sex education in our schools, a whole cultural change and things like the refuge spaces that Senator Dolan mentioned. That is really why we have this ambitious five-year zero-tolerance strategy, which has been welcomed by everybody. It is probably the most ambitious strategy that has been published and I commend my colleague the Minister, Deputy McEntee, on her work on it. The key now is implementation. The Government is rightly under pressure about how quickly we can now implement its very important elements.

With this Bill I believe that we are putting pillars into practice. We are creating new robust offences and protections which will serve to combat domestic, sexual and gender-based violence. I again thank Una Ring and Eve McDowell of Stalking Ireland for all of their work and campaigning. I thank them from meeting me. They have bravely shared their own experiences. They have worked tirelessly to drive a campaign which has helped to bring about the reforms that are set out in the Bill. I do not believe the Bill would have been possible without the courageous victims and survivors who shared their experiences and helped us identify where our laws needed to be strengthened. I thank our colleague, the Leader of the Seanad, Senator Chambers, for her commitment and her work on these reforms with my colleague the Minister, Deputy McEntee. I am proud to be involved in this Bill now as we have got it through the Dáil and as we progress it through the Seanad.

In response to Senator Ward's question, I am very willing to work with Senators to make sure we have the best legislation possible. I assure the Senator that where someone commits an offence as a child and ends up being prosecuted when they are an adult, we intend to legislate in that space. At the moment our intention is to legislate in a separate Bill, but I would be happy to engage with him on that matter. The Senator quite rightly said that somebody can be retraumatised by effectively being cross-examined by the perpetrator of the abuse. I acknowledge Senator Martin's Bill, as Senator Ward did, on which we intend to introduce Committee Stage amendments in that space.

In response to Senator Chambers's points, I also want to remember Ashling Murphy and her family, whom I have had the great honour of meeting on a couple of occasions in the most tragic of circumstances. We all think of Ashling and her family. Senator Chambers is right and Senator Dolan also made this point. While it is important to introduce all these laws, as we should, that needs to be backed up by other things. Coco's Law on the sharing of intimate images is a good example. A change in the law must be followed by a public awareness campaign. We changed the law on sharing intimate images. We did a survey and 50% of people in the country still did not know that it was illegal to threaten to share. We are now running that awareness campaign. I think the Department and the Government are getting better at running those awareness campaigns to back up the legislation. Along with the awareness campaign, we need to ensure that members of the Garda are equipped and trained to enforce it and to provide support for victims. I very much agree with those.

As I did when I took the Commencement matter, I acknowledge Senator Gallagher's legislation on assaults on emergency workers and ramming of emergency vehicles. I thank him for working with me to get to this point today; we have made good progress together.

I thank Senator Wall for his comments in support of the legislation and for reminding us that the change I will introduce on Committee Stage on assaults on gardaí will also apply absolutely to what we classify as peace officers, which includes a whole range of emergency workers including people in our Defence Forces.

I thank Senator Ruane for taking the opportunity to Second Stage to outline some of the areas on which she wants more detail between now and Committee Stage. My team and I will come back to her on any of the issues and will be happy to engage with her between now and Committee Stage. I will just touch on a few of them now.

I accept the point about maximum sentences. For some serious crimes, I believe the Judiciary should be able to apply a minimum tariff. That may be a discussion for a different day. The Senator asked what the purpose of maximum sentence is. I think it is actually a bit of both. First, it is about solidarity with the victim. It is about recognising that there are certain crimes that society views as being so heinous that they come with the maximum sentence. However, with conspiracy to murder, it is more about trying to align the level of violence and brutality that is intended even if it was not carried out. The Senator does not need me to explain it to her. She knows that in this city and in other parts of our country the damage that organised criminal groups do to society. While they can face maximum life sentences if they carry out the murder, sometimes the Garda stops them before the offence, but the intent was still there. If the Garda is actually successful in stopping the murder, should the penalty actually be less when we know the intent was there to murder, to maim and to cause havoc? That is the rationale behind the conspiracy to murder piece. It comes from engagement with the Garda, which has had relative success in tackling organised crime. We can also tease through that.

To use my phrase rather than the Senator's, are we getting the bar right on the stalking condition? I have no doubt that the reference to adverse consequences on day-to-day lives will be teased through on Committee Stage. I will share with her the rationale. We are trying to strike a balance regarding the offence. On the one hand, we absolutely want to ensure that it applies to appropriate cases, but we also want to position the offence as one of the utmost seriousness. We want to apply it to the appropriate cases and put it in a position that it is seen as such a serious offence. We are removing a requirement for persistence and providing for an open definition of behaviour that can constitute stalking, which I believe everybody welcomed.The risk is that if we bring too much under the label of stalking, could it inadvertently and unintentionally undermine the seriousness associated with the new defence? The reference in the definition to "causing a fear of violence or serious alarm and distress" that has an adverse impact on a victim's day-to-day life captures the essential harms caused by stalking and demonstrates the seriousness of it. Obviously harassment is a wider offence, as it absolutely should be. Again, we will have a chance to tease these matters through.

I referenced a cross-examination issue. Also, I am not in a position at this Stage to outline the specific formulation but we will return to that on Committee Stage. Similarly, with anonymity for alleged victims, I expect to bring forward an amendment on Committee Stage. Again, I cannot yet commit on the specific formulation of that amendment but I am happy to engage on that between now and then.

I wish to say to Senator Dolan that we have a very ambitious plan around refuge places. She is entirely right and we intend to see a huge increase of them, under zero tolerance. To be clear, zero tolerance is not the cap on refuge places. We will have to hit that and then go beyond to get to the Istanbul Convention target, but it is an honest view as to what we can realistically get done within the five-year period. We have been carrying out a very detailed mapping exercise and I am happy to share that with the Senator.

On recruitment and how we attract more people to join An Garda Síochána, there is a big answer to this and a whole variety of answers. We must make sure that the men and women of An Garda Síochána, the men and women who may wish to join An Garda Síochána, and the parents who may wish their son or daughter to join An Garda Síochána know that we are doing everything possible to keep people safe in the force. I think this legislation is an important step in that direction, but it is not the only step. I think bodycams - I am not talking about facial recognition technology, but actual bodycams - are an important part of this. I still cannot get over the fact that the only person at a protest without a camera is the garda. I think it is really bonkers, quite frankly. We are going to legislate for that this year, as one example. We have much more that we need to continue to do to show our gardaí that they have access to modern equipment, that we are giving them the tools they need, that we are giving them more colleagues and that when something goes wrong on the front line, we will support them with very rigorous legislation.

This is a big piece of legislation. There is an awful lot in it. We did not get to touch on every single element of it. I suppose that is the purpose of Committee Stage as we tease through it. I see the Bill as a very honest and thorough attempt to explore a number of areas where there is a need to modernise and strengthen our criminal law, to support victims better and to support gardaí better. That is ultimately what we are trying to do through all of the various parts of the Bill. I look forward to Committee Stage shortly.