Seán Kyne (Fine Gael)
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The Order of Business is No. 1, motion regarding the Orders of Reference of the Joint Committee on Key Issues affecting the Traveller Community, to be taken without debate on the conclusion of the Order of Business; No. 2, Civil Defence Bill 2023 - Second Stage, to be taken at 11.45 a.m. and to adjourn not later than 1.15 p.m., if not previously concluded, with the time allocated for the opening remarks of the Minister not to exceed ten minutes, for group spokespersons not to exceed eight minutes, and for all other Senators not to exceed five minutes, and the Minister to be given not less than ten minutes to reply to the debate; and No. 3, statements on tourism, to be taken at 1.15 p.m. with the time allocated to the opening remarks of the Minister not to exceed six minutes, for all Senators not to exceed six minutes, and the Minister to be given not less than six minutes to reply to the debate.

Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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I raise an issue I have raised here before, namely, concern around section 39 organisations. As we know, a lot of health services, in particular disability services and services for older people, are provided by section 39 organisations. There is a difference between section 38 and 39 organisations in terms of pay levels. Somebody who is a nurse is financially better off working in the HSE system than in a section 39 organisation. This is an issue the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, has raised regularly. I ask that a debate on section 39 organisations and the support for them be facilitated in the House.

Related to that, I had a Commencement matter last week of the cost of the cyberattack on the HSE. By the end of this year, we know the direct costs will run to the order of €144 million. I fully expect that will exceed €200 or €300 million by the time all of the necessary repair works are carried out. One of the major problems we have is that, because a lot of health services are provided by section 39 organisations, the vulnerability with regard to a cyberattack will not be on the HSE but rather some section 39 organisations. Many of these organisations carry important patient data. As part of our debate on cybersecurity in the health services, we need to know how we will protect the data in section 39 organisations. The difficulty is that when those organisations spend money on cybersecurity, it is classified as admin and fingers are pointed about charities spending a lot of money on admin, but it is essential they spend that money. We need to look at this issue.

On the data issue, it is anticipated that, in the next few days, we will hear a decision concerning the long-running case taken by Max Schrems, the Austrian lawyer and privacy campaigner. I applaud him for his work on data transfer by Meta from the European Union to the United States. We expect to see the largest ever fine for a data breach slapped on Meta, but there is also the possibility of a data transfer ban on data from Meta travelling to the United States. That would have serious implications for those who use Facebook and other social media. I have called for a debate on foot of that decision around data security in Ireland and Europe.

Sharon Keogan (Independent)
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There are a few things the public expect from the Government. It is not too long a list and the demands are not too unreasonable, by and large. They include a roof over their heads and a reasonable hope their children may have the same, a job that is able to put food on the table and a functioning healthcare system. At different times and in different ways, the Government of this country has struggled to meet these modest criteria. I am not going to go into detail regarding the foundational issues plaguing our healthcare system. They are well known and have been put on the record of the House by me and others. However, it must be remarked that, last week, the Irish Dental Association annual conference tabled and passed a motion of no confidence in the Minister for Health, Deputy Donnelly, and the Department of Health officials who they feel have failed to enable the sector to operate at an acceptable level.

The conference showed that almost 40% of our patients have to wait an average of up to three months for an elective appointment, including orthodontics and oral surgery. This is the direct result of ongoing recruitment issues and a capacity crisis across the sector. More than half of the dentists surveyed said they have tried to hire a dentist for their practice in the past 12 months, with almost 60% of those unable to find a suitable candidate. As a result, patients find it increasingly difficult to access essential care across the private and public sector. I call for a debate with the Minister for Health on what targeted measures may be taken to alleviate the strain being put on dentists nationwide.

Speaking of healthcare, I urge everyone to read the recent letter from the bishops' conference regarding the Government's abortion review as it concisely and succinctly lays out the opposition of many to the process and its results. Some of the highlights are the fact we were given not a review of the Act but only a review of how it operates, which is regrettable in the extreme. It narrowed the scope of the review in a manner that has negatively impacted our ability to tailor the legislation. Over the three-year period covered by the review, 2019-21, almost 18,000 pregnancies were terminated in Ireland. During the same period, there were 175,000 children born in Ireland. For every ten children born alive, one was aborted. Some of us noticed that at a certain point the "rare" portion of the pro-abortion slogan "Safe, legal and rare" was dropped. Even its supporters knew this was never going to be the case. Finally, we now know that over a quarter of all women who presented at a medical consultation for abortion chose not to go ahead with it. That opportunity was afforded to them by way of the mandatory three-day wait period. Of course, we are now being told it should become completely advisory. The intentional weakening of the essential protection of women and the unborn child must be strongly opposed and I hope the merits of such protections will be given sufficient airing in the Chamber, the Lower House and Government Buildings.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Before I call the next Senator, I welcome to the Gallery the Glasnevin and Drumcondra ladies' shed. They are most welcome today and I hope they enjoy their visit to Leinster House. We would be delighted to hear any advice they have.

Róisín Garvey (Green Party)
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I want to say a few words about the ongoing issue in Clare, namely, the fish kill in a river. There is a public meeting about it tomorrow night in the Falls Hotel in Ennistymon. There is an ongoing investigation, thanks to Inland Fisheries Ireland and its dedicated staff. The people want results and answers. We have to set a precedent because it was a crime against nature. Thousands of fish of every variety, including salmon, trout and even eels, were killed, which means otters and herons are not coming back up the river. I do not want to let this issue go away without a proper investigation and somebody being brought to justice. We do not want this to happen in any other river in the country. We need to set a strong precedent about the importance of protecting a river and how bad it is to dump anything that will cause a huge kill of thousands of fish, especially when we are in a biodiversity emergency and are struggling as it is to keep salmon and trout in our rivers.A fisheries expert told me that as a result of this fish kill, the river will take 20 years to recover. We need to make sure that people are held to account and that a strong precedent is set. This should not be tolerated in Ireland and should never happen again.

Paul Gavan (Sinn Fein)
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Once again, I raise the issue of University Hospital Limerick, UHL. Thanks to my colleague, Deputy Maurice Quinlivan, we found out that in the first 120 days of this year, the full emergency protocol was used on 118 days. In other words, there were only two days in the first four months of the year that it was not used. What does the full emergency protocol mean? It means that elective procedures have to be cancelled and there is what I would call aggressive discharging of patients. The hospital is in utter crisis, not occasionally, sometimes or just through the winter months but almost every day that it is in operation. It is painful to think of the impact this has on patients and their families, coupled with the horrendous statistics regarding patients on trolleys. I see that 73 patients were languishing on trolleys in the hospital this morning. That is a relatively good number, believe it or not, even though it is horrific and should never be acceptable but only a couple of weeks ago we had 116 patients languishing on trolleys. Nurses have taken industrial action and are operating a work to rule in the hospital. The nursing staff complement is at 75% of what it should be but the nurses are dealing with 100% of the emergency beds. They have not been listened to, and nor have Sinn Féin and the various patient groups. We fully support the nurses in their industrial action. When is the Minister for Health going to take responsibility for this crisis? He is ultimately responsible.

Deputy Quinlivan and I have pointed out on numerous occasions that there is a serious problem with senior management in the hospital regarding their capacity and ability to deliver. The Minister for Health has never dealt with that issue. We need a multi-annual plan because even when we get the additional beds that are planned in the system, we will still be 200 beds short. We need to expedite those beds. We need a multi-annual plan that will actually deliver the beds across the coming years to ensure we finally get over this crisis. We also need to deliver on the staff shortage. Right now, the staff are voting with their feet and leaving. This is an abject failure of Government. Let us be absolutely clear on that. It is the only way we can describe it. It is an abject failure that the emergency protocol has been used on 118 out of 120 days. Where is the Minister for Health? The last time he came to this House he was in denial about the number of patients on hospital trolleys. He quoted the official figures, which everyone knows are just not correct. We stand with the nurses and patients. I ask for an emergency debate on this issue because it cannot go on any longer. We have had years of failure both under the previous Government and now under this present one. We need immediate change and the Minister for Health needs to be held accountable now.

Lisa Chambers (Fianna Fail)
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I will raise an issue around the national development plan, NDP, and key projects in road infrastructure that are committed to by the three parties in Government. The NDP cannot be undermined by any one single member of Government or one party. I refer specifically to the N17 Knock to Collooney road which is due to be upgraded. It is a treacherous stretch of road. There are parts of that national route that have an 80 km speed limit because it is so treacherous. The road is long overdue an upgrade. This will cost in the region of €600 million. That is a commitment in the NDP and is committed to by all parties in Government. Unfortunately, when he visited Sligo last week, the Minster for Transport took it upon himself to say that money would not be available for a very long time. Having spoken to my party colleagues and the Minister of State at the Department, I want to make it very clear that is not a decision that can be taken by any one Minister. It is a Government decision to fund and progress that project in the NDP. This has upset many communities who use the route, which connects Galway, Mayo and Sligo. It is very important road infrastructure. While we are all very supportive of public transport and getting people out of cars, we simply do not have alternative transport options in rural Ireland and will not have them for some time.

We also want to progress rail links in the region but that seems to be delayed by the same Department. The N17 road project is very important. I would like clarification from the Minister that funding will be made available when it is needed to allow work on the road to progress at a reasonable pace and not be left for years to come.

I will raise another issue that comes under the remit of the same Department. The all-island rail review was commissioned in 2021. Many rail organisations have been demanding it but we are still awaiting its publication. We anticipate that the western rail corridor will be provided for in the report and that it will recommend the reopening of the Athenry to Claremorris rail link. This will be very important for the region in connecting Mayo with Galway city. There is a somewhat ridiculous element to this issue. As this is an all-island review, the absence of a working government in the North has delayed publication of the document until now. Officials responsible have said they are willing to look at publishing the elements of the report that relate solely to the Republic. I respectfully ask the officials and the Minister for Transport to get on with it and publish the elements of the report they can publish so that we can get working on these important capital infrastructure projects for the west and north west. As usual, these regions are lagging behind on this key infrastructure.

Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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I share the concerns of Senator Chambers about the slow progress being made on major infrastructure projects in the west on which we expect movement. The matter came up at a parliamentary party meeting last night at which Senator Chambers and a number of other Members expressed concern. I am delighted, however, that it appears that the retendering for the N5 will proceed. There are several other projects that must also move ahead without delay.

The same Minister is going to be a very busy man because I am looking for something else from him as well. I am concerned about draft proposals from Europe on the rewetting of land and what they might mean for Irish agriculture. All of us raised on small farms know of the great drainage programmes that were carried out and the huge benefits they brought to rural communities. As with the rest of my party, I am not against environmental protection. We are reasonable people and we know what we have to do. However, from when I was six or seven years of age, I recall hearing my father and other people say that water has to be allowed to take its course. I believe that we should not interfere with water courses, even flood waters. Obviously we cannot allow flooding of housing estates but that is a matter of not building on flood plains. We cannot just force a plan against natural water courses or rainfall. The Minister for the Environment, Climate and Communications needs to come to this House to discuss the matter. He needs to hold the banner up for Irish agriculture and communities by not allowing Europe to push a rewetting scheme that could require that up to 80% of drained peatlands be rewetted. That would have huge and desperate consequences for large areas of rural Ireland. I know that some MEPs in various parties are opposed to this proposal. We must oppose it and we must get a good deal for Irish farmers on the proposed rewetting of land.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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At 7.45 this morning, I visited the international protection offices in Mount Street. The first thing I encountered were 31 tents, some of them elevated on wooden decking and plastic. These are occupied by people who are waiting for emergency accommodation and a humanitarian response by the Irish people under the international protection protocols the country has signed up to. We have an obligation and I believe the Irish people and Government are wholly supportive of it. However, the manner in which this obligation is being met regarding administration and support is questionable. I am told there are several people occupying many of those 31 tents. To be fair, all the rubbish was packed up in bags.I spoke to one man who said there was an issue with rats down in Grattan Court. The tents went down into Grattan Court, just around the corner from Leinster House. We have got to put our shoulder to the wheel. All people have to respond. It has to be a multiagency approach.

I am particularly delighted that the former senior college on Eblana Avenue in Dún Laoghaire, the area I live in, which has been more or less derelict on and off for the past ten to 15 years, has been identified by the Government and the Minister as a suitable site. I very much welcome that. I hope and know that the people of Dún Laoghaire will work together, as will public representatives in both the Seanad and Dáil, to support that initiative. It is welcome. The building has lain derelict for a long time. As a matter of fact, I identified the building for social housing many years ago, although that was ignored. We have a very important role. As a migrant people and a country from whose shores people travelled with their own issues and problems, we know of the welcome we got. Sometimes, we did not get a very warm welcome. Let us stick together and support these people in need in every constructive way possible. I welcome the initiative for Dún Laoghaire. It is important. The Government and particularly the Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, need all the support we can give. We must provide the wraparound services, communicate with communities and people and work with the local authorities so that we are all at one with regard to the message and what is involved here.

Seán Kyne (Fine Gael)
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I thank all Senators for their comments, questions and statements here this morning. Senator Malcolm Byrne started off with the issue of section 39 organisations. It is a long-running saga and section 39 workers have valid issues and claims regarding their pay and not being treated in the same way as those within the HSE, particularly with regard to health and mental health. I will certainly request that a debate on the matter be facilitated.

The Senator also raised the matter of the cost of the cyberattack, stating that it is estimated at up to €144 million and that it is likely to grow. The personal data of some 100,000 people were accessed during the cyberattack in 2021. A question mark hangs over whether the HSE is liable under the general data protection regulation to pay compensation for alleged non-material damage such as stress resulting from the hacking incident. That is before the courts and there will be an answer on it but it is clearly something that is worrying and the Senator is right to highlight the fact that it is the smaller organisations that are part of the health service that are most vulnerable to attack. That needs to be taken on board by those involved in the protection of data. The Senator also mentioned Meta and data breaches and proposed a debate on data security and cybersecurity. I will request that such a debate be facilitated.

Senator Keogan raised the matter of the least that people expect, a roof over their heads and a job to put food on the table. When I first entered these Houses back to 2011, it was a different country and a different world. With regard to housing, we were talking about ghost estates, people in negative equity, bust banks, bust developers and the IMF in the country. We have come a long way since then. We effectively have full employment. That goes back to a number of issues raised here and the inability to get people to provide all of the services that are needed. The Senator also raised valid questions regarding the Dental Council of Ireland, capacity within the system and dentists not signing up to HSE schemes. I will request a debate on those matters. She also talked about the abortion review. I am sure we will have statements or a debate on that issue. I will certainly request that. The Joint Committee on Health has been asked to examine the review with its authors. We will be dealing with that later in the month. As I have said, it will then be up to each individual Member of each House to pass judgment on any legislative changes that might be proposed.

As she did last week, Senator Garvey brought up the issue of the fish kill in the Inagh River and noted that there is a public meeting to be held in the Falls Hotel. I certainly hope that those responsible are investigated and brought to task. As I have said, accidents can happen but negligence should not be tolerated. I acknowledge the work of Inland Fisheries Ireland and all of the public bodies that are engaging with it. I presume the clean-up is under way but it will take many years for that river to be restored to its previous state.

Senator Gavan asked where the Minister for Health is. He was before the Joint Committee on Health on 26 April to talk about hospital issues and he will be in this Chamber on 1 June to discuss matters relating to the health capital plan. As he often has before, the Senator raised the issue of the University Hospital Limerick. As he will know, there are significant plans with regard to new ward blocks. They are certainly overdue. Under questioning before the Joint Committee on Health, the Minister admitted that there should have been increased capacity before the decision to close the emergency department in Ennis back in 2009. There are ongoing issues there. Unfortunately, it is patients who are suffering. The Minister will be here on 1 June to discuss matters.

Senators Chambers and Murphy were in agreement in discussing the national development plan and the delays in respect of the section of the N17 from Knock to Collooney. I have certainly heard stories regarding conversations the Minister may have had with senior individuals in Sligo regarding a number of issues in the west of Ireland. Based on what we have heard, I would certainly question his attitude to the west of Ireland, whether regarding Knock airport, the western rail corridor or investment in roads. There are commitments in the programme for Government that all parties signed up to. My party and that of the Senators are very much of the view that roads that have been progressed to a certain level should be continued and funded. I see Senator Carrigy here today. He has advocated for the road from Longford to Sligo, which has also hit the buffers. We need to progress roads like that if we are serious about balanced regional development and about investing in the west and north west.

Senator Chambers also mentioned the all-Ireland rail review. Again, I understand we are waiting for Stormont to be back up and running but I believe it is now safe to say that the Athenry to Claremorris section is safe and will now progress towards reopening. There is a local election in Northern Ireland today. I hope that, once it is out of the way, attention can be refocused on getting Stormont back up and running and getting the Assembly back working. A couple of weeks ago, Dexcom announced investment in Athenry. Those 1,000 jobs are a great incentive to reopen the railway line to Tuam and Claremorris. That level of investment in the economic corridor between Athenry and Oranmore is only going to grow, which is good for Galway and the wider region.

Senator Murphy called for a debate with the Minister, Deputy McConalogue, on the issue of rewetting.

Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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It is the Minister for the Environment, Climate and Communications, Deputy Eamon Ryan, who has responsibility for the issue.

Seán Kyne (Fine Gael)
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I am not sure which of the two Ministers has the most responsibility and is most appropriate to address these concerns.

Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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It is the Minister for the Environment, Climate and Communications.

Seán Kyne (Fine Gael)
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It is a concern. We have gone full circle here. In the 1950s and 1960s, there were grants to drain land, clear scrub and improve matters. We have now gone full circle and it is difficult. Rewetting is a matter of particular concern because if one landowner were to close off drains for rewetting, it would have a knock-on effect on waters upstream. This cannot be done piecemeal. It has to be done as part of a plan. There needs to be an initial focus on State-owned land. I was at a presentation in Recess in Connemara recently. Coillte is engaging with environmental groups to remove an area of coniferous plantation that has not done well and to rewet the area. That is State-owned land and it will not impact on other people. We can look at some of the Bord na Móna lands as well. That is the way to go initially before we look at impacting on privately owned lands.

Senator Boyhan welcomed the plans in Dún Laoghaire. It is good to see a public representative doing that. He called on the Government to put the shoulder to the wheel. This is a very difficult issue. As the Senator will know, I went through it in a previous life, in 2019. As I have said before, this is something that will be dealt with by whomever is in these seats in five, ten, 15, 20, 30, 40 or 50 years' time.The issue of migration - which is impacted by global warming and everything that goes with it, such as food shortages in certain parts of the world - will be one that Europe and countries such as Ireland will have to deal with.

There are debates regarding communication with locals. Such communication is always beneficial. The issue is how much engagement to have and what the impact of it would be. We have seen situations in other parts of the country where protests can be preplanned and infiltrated by those. That is not to dismiss the legitimate concerns that local people have but there is a balance. The majority of Irish people are understanding and supportive. However, this is an issue of concern in certain parts of the country. There is no easy solution. I have not heard anyone come up with an easy solution regarding matching our international obligations with the concerns of local people. It is a difficult situation. The Government is doing as well as it can in facing up to the challenges. There was enough of a challenge prior to 2022 and the illegal invasion of Ukraine, but that has exacerbated the problem and the accommodation shortage for those seeking protection. I am sure we will discuss that matter again in the House and we will ask the Minister, Deputy O’Gorman. It is a difficult situation for Government, politicians and local communities to deal with and it will be with us for years to come.