Micheál Carrigy (Fine Gael)
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I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, to the Seanad today. I put on record my thanks to her for the work she has done since coming into the role on the formation of the Government. She has been a very strong advocate for people with disabilities and, in particular, those people who are on the autism spectrum, with whom I work in my role as Cathaoirleach of the Joint Committee on Autism. I thank the Minister of State for her support on that.

As I know from my involvement in that committee, approximately 25% of those who are on the autism spectrum are either non-verbal or have communication issues. We had a very powerful day in the Seanad a number of months ago when parents and self advocates appeared before the committee to give testimony and evidence to us. On that day, a number of parents spoke about safety concerns for their children, particularly for children who are non-verbal. To me, there seems to be an issue somewhere, possibly within the judicial system, where a child cannot communicate. We have heard stories, one of which was on that particular day. A young child was bruised when they came home. The parent made representations to the school but because the child was not able to communicate their complaints, the principal of the school, Tusla and An Garda Síochána were not able to process the issue.

We need to look at this area and at the Acts in place. In particular, I refer to the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission Act 2014 and the Criminal Evidence Act 1992. These should be reviewed and looked at to ensure that non-verbal and minimally communicative children are protected in all cases-----

Anne Rabbitte (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.

Micheál Carrigy (Fine Gael)
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-----whether they are in schools, residential settings, respite care or, indeed, in healthcare settings. I will not mention individual cases here, but it is an issue that has been brought to the committee by parents and parents' representative groups. I ask that it would be looked at and that any changes in the law that need to be made are made to reflect the need for increased protection for those children and families. This would allow for any issue of concern that is brought forward to be dealt with in the same manner as anyone else who brought forward a claim. For a child who is non-communicative, there are assistive communications and there are other methods out there. I have said before that, as a State, we need to provide augmentative and alternative communication, AAC, devices to all children who are non-verbal. We, as a State, should be able to put the apps on these devices to allow children to be able to communicate.

The Minister of State is well aware of young Fiacre Ryan-----

Anne Rabbitte (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.

Micheál Carrigy (Fine Gael)
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-----who is a young lad who is non-communicative. He is now in university in Atlantic Technical University, ATU, using the rapid prompting method, RPM, which some people have concerns about. Yet, it is a method of communication. Any method of communication that works should be used and supported.

I ask that we look at these Acts and at whether gardaí are trained in interviewing non-verbal kids and at whether they are aware of these other various communication methods. It is all about protecting the kids.

Anne Rabbitte (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, absolutely.

I thank Senator Carrigy very much for raising this very important issue. It is important to have it on the record that we understand this.The script I have in front of me is a combination of a script from the Department of Justice and the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth so we could try to give a comprehensive response. I am conscious we have a visiting a school group in the Public Gallery who will hear me talk about young people and their rights, and the voice of the young person. Sometimes not everybody has that voice and we are here to discuss how we can protect their voice.

There are more than 600,000 people with disabilities in Ireland whose daily lives, lived experiences and support needs are as diverse as each individual person behind the statistic. The UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, UNCRPD, contains universal rights and the approach taken by the State via the Disability Act and the Equal Status Act defines disability in broad terms and not be reference to specific impairments or diagnoses. The questions Senator Carrigy asked regarding access to justice are as important for all children with disabilities as they are for those who require specific communication supports. For that reason we need to find the right balance in our approach to recognising and responding to the bespoke needs of particular cohorts of people with disabilities without creating a legislative hierarchy of disabilities. The principle of parity of esteem between disability constituents was advanced by the landmark work by the Commission on the Status of People with Disabilities in 1996 and is as relevant today as it was then. We need to continue our journey towards fully adopting the social model of disability as the UNCRPD asks of us, recognising that the societal barriers and challenges may be the disabling factors in people's lives, not their impairment.

That is why the concept of universal design is so powerful, and something I raise frequently in both Houses. The concept of universal design extends to the way in which we develop appropriate and accessible pathways and supports through which all people with disabilities can seek justice and assert their rights through the legal system. The centre of excellence in universal design within the National Disability Authority, NDA, is a world-leading example of Ireland’s commitment to designing and adapting our support systems and our built environment in a way that does not distinguish between people on the basis of ability or impairment.

While I acknowledge that there will always be work to do as we continuously advance and strengthen UNCRPD rights, much has also been achieved to support and advance the rights of people with communication support needs in Ireland to date. For example, last year the Minister for Justice launched a new qualification programme at the University of Limerick to train intermediaries who will help vulnerable people, including sexual abuse victims, and children, when giving evidence in the justice system. Intermediaries are professionals, usually with a background in speech and language therapy or a cognitive discipline, with the skills and expertise necessary to assist witnesses who have communication difficulties in providing evidence. The introduction of this new programme for intermediaries is a key action in Supporting a Victim’s Journey, which is a plan to create a more victim focused criminal justice system. Once qualified, intermediaries will have an essential role in assessing and supporting the communication needs of vulnerable witnesses and to advise An Garda Síochána, advocates, and the court on the steps needed to assist such witnesses to give their best evidence.

The role of an intermediary is not to speak for people with communication support needs, but to bridge any communications gaps. Moreover, An Garda Síochána has procedures and provisions in place to engage with people with non-visible disabilities. Garda members receive training in this regard and An Garda Síochána also has specialist interviewers for interviewing vulnerable individuals, including children. l am informed that An Garda Síochána is satisfied that there are sufficient child protection provisions and requirements in statutory law to protect children and Tusla, and An Garda Síochána, AGS, play an important role in this regard.

Mary Seery Kearney (Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister of State. The guests in the Public Gallery are from the East Glendalough School and they are all very welcome. They are guests of the Minister of State, Deputy Richmond. I invite Senator Carrigy to reply to the Minister of State.

Micheál Carrigy (Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister of State. I suppose her reply tells me that everything is okay and that everyone is satisfied but what we hear from parents and parents' groups does not correspond with what is in the statement from the Department of Justice. I ask that this be communicated to the Department of Justice. We need to sit own and tease out where the issues are, because there are issues of concern. Ultimately, we need to protect those who are most vulnerable in our society. What we hear, and what we heard at the committee, does not marry with what was in the statement today. I ask that this concern be taken back to the Department of Justice and that it furnishes me with an updated reply, or look at the Acts I mentioned to see where there are issues and make the necessary changes.

Anne Rabbitte (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Senator. In my concluding statement, I can say my own few words. The opening statement was a combination from two Departments, trying to get to the basis of it. Quite rightly, much work is going on but that has not really been rolled out on the ground because from what I heard in Senator Carrigy's introductory remarks was that parents say that when they encounter an issue, they do not understand it, or there is no mechanism there to support that communication piece.

The Senator is right in what he says regarding the augmentative and alternative communicationpiece. I genuinely believe that piece of technology needs to be embedded in society. I genuinely believe when it is identified through speech and language therapy in the early years, that assistive technology needs to be made available to young people so it becomes the norm and is not talked about and that everybody knows how it works and the voice of the child, while it might not come straight from their lips, comes through the piece of assistive technology. That is why that I placed an order worth €1 million to purchase 1,000 units of augmentative and alternative communication, AAC, last Christmas. I know it is only the tip of the iceberg but nobody could give me an exact statistic as to how many were needed. I listened to parents the same as Senator Carrigy and I compliment him on the work he has done on that committee. I also compliment Mr. Fiacre Ryan, who sent me his book, Elaine and everybody because we need more conversations to understand what voices are missing and what pieces are missing. Sometimes it is not legislation; it is our understanding. We need to move on from awareness of disability to an understanding of how a person needs to be included to participate equally in society and that is living and breathing the UNCRPD.

I will continue to work with Senator Carrigy regarding the assistive technology piece and will bring back what Senator Carrigy raised to the Minister for Justice.

Mary Seery Kearney (Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister of State and Senator Carrigy for their ongoing work in this area.