Mary Seery Kearney (Fine Gael)
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I thank the Cathaoirleach for picking this matter. The Minister of State, Deputy Browne, is very welcome. Cash-for-gold are outlets where an individual can go in, present gold for sale, get it valued and get the cash there and then. There is no question asked of the bona fides of the person who is selling, and where they got the gold from. I appreciate there has been a huge fall in burglary rates, and I have confirmed that with An Garda Síochána. When we compare 2019 to 2022, it is certainly significant. However, this idea that you can convert gold into cash is striking as an easy way to facilitate criminality, and to get easy money at the expense of individuals and their homes. Back in 2012, the former Minister Alan Shatter commissioned a report.From that report it came out that the pawnbrokers operate to rules. The individual coming in with goods to obtain cash has to have proof of identity. Also, the outlets themselves have to be registered. That stands in stark contrast, however, to the cash-for-gold outlets.

There was a further public consultation in 2015, and the outcome of that was that particular safeguards should be put in place. That was written into the programme for Government in 2016. In 2019, the then Minister, Deputy Charlie Flanagan, was asked about the progress on any legislation or governance over cash-for-gold outlets and he informed the House that the legislation was being drafted, that it would create a licensing regime for these outlets and that there would be a requirement of traceability on the individuals presenting with items to sell.

In 2012 the estimate was that there were 124 outlets throughout the country. By 2019, that number was unknown. In the intervening period, however, the online space has opened up. I did a workaround on the Internet and saw that there are outlets where people just have to register their name and your address, they are sent an envelope that insures the contents of that envelope, and when that is sent in, a valuation is drawn up. They get a phone call for that valuation and they are sent the cash if they agree with it or else they are sent their goods back.

The problem is we do not know who is behind those outlets. They are not registered. For some of them, there is a contact address. It is generally the case that the bag goes to a PO box, but there is a contact address and a mobile number on a couple of the online links. It is just a mobile telephone number. We have no idea who these people are. We do not know that this is not a source of criminality. We know there are communities under significant pressure and individuals in communities under terrible pressure for drug debts and all sorts of intimidation. It strikes me, therefore, that we absolutely need to know who is dealing what in gold, particularly at a time of difficulty. We get warnings from the Garda in the run-up to Christmas for people to be especially vigilant, but here we have this open sore, by the looks of things, of places where commodities belonging to anyone, without verification, can be traded in for cash.

Where are we with the legislation in this regard and the governance of these businesses? Do we have anything on the horizon or any progress in that regard?

Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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Before I call on the Minister of State, in the Gallery today we have Aisling Heapes, who is a fifth year student in Kilrush Community School. She is here on work experience with Senator Garvey. She is very welcome. I hope she enjoys her stay in Leinster House.

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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On behalf of the Minister, Deputy Harris, I thank Senator Seery Kearney for raising this very important matter around safeguards and statutory provisions in respect of the oversight of cash-for-gold outlets. I assure the Senator that a number of key legislative provisions are in operation to militate against criminality in this regard. More generally, Irish law relating to the sale and purchase of scrap metal is a matter for the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications and arises under waste management legislation. Waste management regulations impose an obligation on businesses to apply due diligence measures to ensure the traceability of any waste purchased, including scrap metal.

The Criminal Justice (Money Laundering and Terrorist Financing) Act 2010, as amended, places a number of obligations on the designated persons to guard against their businesses or services being used for money laundering or terrorist financing purposes. As the Senator may be aware, the anti-money laundering compliance unit is responsible for supervising designated non-financial businesses, including cash-for-gold businesses, for compliance with their anti-money laundering and counter-financing of terrorism obligations under the 2010 Act, as amended. Compliance with relevant obligations is monitored by the anti-money laundering compliance unit through a variety of means. Monitoring includes inspections, both announced and unannounced, by regulatory investigators who have been appointed as authorised officers under the 2010 Act, as amended. In addition, the regulatory investigator may be accompanied by other authorised officers, by a member of An Garda Síochána or by such other persons as the authorised officer reasonably considers appropriate. I note these obligations apply only in respect of transactions by the person or to the person in cash of at least €10,000, whether in one transaction or a series of linked transactions. The Criminal Justice (Theft and Fraud Offences) Act 2001 provides for offences of theft that would, based on the broad nature of the offence, include scrap metal and catalytic converter theft. The 2001 Act also includes offences relating to the handling of stolen property and possession of stolen property. Maximum sentences of ten years are provided for in the case of offences of theft and handling of stolen property, while maximum sentences of five years are provided for the offence of the possession of stolen property.

Mary Seery Kearney (Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister of State. We do not appear to have specific licensing. I do not quite know how to respectfully refer to it but while provisions have been cited, none of them reflect what was committed to by the Minister for Justice in 2019, which was a licensing of these specific outlets. With due respect to whoever wrote the Minster of State's notes, the idea the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications is overseeing people walking in with cash, which has probably been taken from another individual or his or her home and turned into cash, is a little far-fetched.

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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And grandad's ring is not scrap metal.

Mary Seery Kearney (Fine Gael)
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Exactly. We clearly need a very bespoke response to this because it is an open goal for criminality that we need to close down. It is a gap in our law that needs to be rectified.

James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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I again thank the Senator for raising this important matter. I assure her a range of statutory provisions are in existence to combat crime in this sector. Officials from my Department remain involved in the metal theft forum, a collaborative working group between stakeholders and industry representatives to improve information sharing around the issue of metal theft. I hear the Senator's concerns around the very specific situation of cash-for-gold outlets. It is about what may be presented there, as opposed to scrap metal, that may be used and the undertaking given in 2019 around licensing of specific outlets. I will certainly bring those specific concerns back to the Minister, Deputy Harris, and ask him to respond in a little more detail to the Senator.