Fiona O'Loughlin (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Noonan. I extend a warm welcome to our guests in Visitors Gallery. We hope you find this session informative. It is always wonderful to see people coming in and having the opportunity to watch the engagement in the Seanad.

Mary Seery Kearney (Fine Gael)
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I have huge respect for the Minister of State, Deputy Noonan, so what I am going to say is not directed at him personally. More than 100,000 people in this country own apartments that have defects. A question on how that will be addressed deserved to be answered by the senior Minister in the Department who has control of the timeline here. I am somewhat disappointed that he is not here to answer it. I have nothing against the Minister of State, Deputy Noonan, who is a very fine worker and a great colleague.

Two weeks ago, the Friday before the bank holiday weekend, my phone lit up. Another set of apartment owners in Dublin South-Central received notification that they could no longer use their underground car park. They were told the waste disposal areas were being moved outside of the complex because a fire officer's enforcement notice had been given to them with a prosecution to follow due to the fact there are fire defects and it was a high risk apartment complex.That night, people sat around in groups, very distressed, wondering if they were safe putting their children to bed that night in their apartments. If one could not park a car down below, how was it safe to put one's child into an apartment? They do not have any choices. They cannot sell because they can only dispose of the apartment is a cash buyer. They cannot move anywhere else because there is nowhere else to go. This is merely one complex of apartments among 17,000 thousand apartments that are in Dublin South-Central that I am told are affected by this.

I appreciate that we have had a working group and that it produced a fine, thorough and extensive report. It was an excellent piece of work. I appreciate that in September the Minister brought an information memorandum to Cabinet stating that another group was sitting to decide on how there would be redress. It will report before Christmas and apparently options will be brought to Cabinet. I am sure the Minister of State, Deputy Noonan, will confirm that today. That will involve legislation which means we will be into March or April before there is any redress. Meanwhile there are real-time consequences to this. There are people suffering mental health issues as a consequence. Relationships are breaking down. There are people who cannot meet the bills. If there was a disaster in one of those complexes tonight due to a fire, we would have an awful lot of wringing of hands by the Taoiseach, the Tánaiste and Ministers and we would have action on it the next day but that is not good enough. These families live in risk of the substandard provisions that were put in at the height of the Celtic tiger when there was loose enforcement of regulations. They are in the main suffering the consequences. It is not their fault. Any delay on this is insufferable and intolerable. To be perfectly honest, they need an answer and they need it now.

I appreciate the State grinds slowly but this is not new. This goes back to 2017. December 2017 was when the first report was published by a joint Oireachtas committee on housing - I sit on the Joint Committee on Housing, Local Government and Heritage now - which the Minister sat on as a spokesperson for the Opposition. That report showed the lack of safety within these apartments. It is not okay that there is the slightest delay.

After that Friday night, at approximately 6 o'clock the following morning, I sent out text messages and followed-up with telephone calls to the Department, to the Minister and to the Tánaiste. All of them came back with reassurances, but that is no use if one is sitting in an apartment facing into Christmas - maybe one is a tech employee or something like that - and is looking at a bill for €68,000. That is not an answer. We need an answer now.

Malcolm Noonan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Green Party)
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Gabhaim buíochas leis an Seanadóir. I note the Senator's comments in relation to the Minister, Deputy Darragh O'Brien. We have three Ministers working diligently in the Department and the Minister, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, has been deeply committed to trying to resolve these issues. I respect the point the Senator made and, critically, respect the work she has been doing on behalf of the residents on what has been a traumatic and difficult situation for them. Both I and the Minister, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, fully acknowledge the difficulties that homeowners and residents of many apartments and duplexes are facing and the stress that is caused when defects arise in relation to their buildings.

As previously stated in this House, the report of the working group the Minister established to examine defects in housing was published at the end of July. The group's terms of reference were focused on fire safety, structural safety and water ingress defects in purpose-build apartments, buildings and duplexes constructed between 1991 and 2013.

The content of this report confirmed what we already know. There is a significant and widespread issue with defects in a large number of apartments and duplexes that were built in that time period. Indeed, the working group estimates that between 62,500 and 100,000 apartments or duplexes may be affected by one or more fire safety, structural safety and water ingress defects with a potential total remediation cost of between €1.56 billion and €2.5 billion.

Following consideration of the working group's report, on behalf of the Minister, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, I will now update this House on the steps being taken to develop a plan to address the situation. First, on 27 September, the Minister, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, brought a memorandum to Government to inform it of the content of the report and the next steps he would be taking. The Minister has committed to reverting to Government at the end of this year with specific proposals. Second, an interdepartmental and agency group has been established to consider the recommendations contained in the working group's report and to elaborate on options for the potential sources of financial support and potential channels of deployment contained in the report. This interdepartmental and agency group has been asked to revert with proposed delivery mechanisms for the deployment of funding and to develop an options paper which will assist the Minister with developing proposals to present to Government before the end of the year. Third, the Department is in the process of establishing an advisory group to develop a code of practice in the context of the Fire Services Act to provide guidance to building professionals, local authority building control services and local authority fire services. Fourth, the Department is engaging with the Housing Agency for the provision of advice in relation to implementation of the recommendations of the working group's report.

As is evident from the detail I have presented to the House, a considerable amount of work is being undertaken and reflects the urgency that the Government believes is necessary to address this issue for affected homeowners. However, as recognised by the working group in its report, given that the overall potential scale and estimated cost of fixing the problem is so considerable it may take many years to address all buildings affected and resources and works will, therefore, need to be prioritised. In this regard, it would not be appropriate for those in charge of affected buildings to delay the undertaking of any remediation work that is considered necessary from a life-safety point of view.

I acknowledge the points the Senator made in relation to the families. We absolutely acknowledge the distress and trauma that this has caused them. The Government is making every effort to bring this to a successful resolution with those recommendations at the end of this year.

Mary Seery Kearney (Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister of State. I know all three Ministers are working hard. I do not doubt that but I hear words such as "they are developing a plan", "will look at an options paper for Government" and "will have an advisory group on regulations". I hear the language of long-time delay. That is a delay with real-life consequences for the people who are living in these homes.

I also heard the Minister of State say that delaying on works is not appropriate. The problem is there is not any money to fund the works. In fact, many of the owner management companies are trading insolvent. They are probably trading contrary to company law because they do not have the money. They do not have sinking funds.

There needs to be compensation retrospectively. I know one management company that is deeply in debt and not all of the people living there are paying, have paid or have the wherewithal. The owner management companies cannot get the finance to fund these works and the people living in the apartments do not always have the wherewithal to pay for the works upfront. The doing of the works is not down to anybody not wanting to progress and make sure they are safe. They physically cannot do it because they cannot get the finance. Delay cannot continue.

Malcolm Noonan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Green Party)
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I appreciate that. Not to misunderstand that this delay is in any sense deliberate-----

Mary Seery Kearney (Fine Gael)
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I accept that.

Malcolm Noonan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Green Party)
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It is complex, as the Senator will be aware. It is important that we get this right. These are a complex set of issues that have arisen as a result of it. The Minister, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, wants to ensure the set of recommendations that come forward from the interdepartmental and agency working group will assist him in making the correct decisions to move this forward in as quickly a timeframe as possible.

Certainly, in the Dáil and in here, other options were presented around interim solutions. I am not sure what the report will put forward. The Senator may rest assured, and give assurance to the residents' groups, that the Minister, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, is committed to resolving this in an equitable and a fair manner, noting that these are issues for affected homeowners who find themselves in this situation through no fault of their own. We are working to ensure that we try to resolve this in as fair a manner as possible.