Seanad debates

Wednesday, 26 October 2022

10:30 am

Photo of Regina DohertyRegina Doherty (Fine Gael)
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I also welcome Ambassador Nader on his return visit to Ireland. My son did an Erasmus programme in Austria a number of years ago and was made very welcome. I hope the ambassador is also receiving a warm welcome here. I also draw my colleagues' attention to the presence of Mr. Conor Dolphin in the Visitors Gallery. He is from Galway to do intern work with us and is very welcome.

The Order of Business is No. 1, motion regarding the sitting and business of the Seanad on Thursday, 27 October 2022, to be taken on conclusion of the Order of Business, without debate; No. 2, Consumer Rights Bill 2022 – Report and Final Stages, to be taken at 1.15 p.m. and to adjourn at 2.15 p.m., if not previously concluded; No. 3, the Bretton Woods Agreements (Amendment) Bill 2022 - Report and Final Stages, to be taken at 2.30 p.m. and to adjourn at 3.30 p.m., if not previously concluded; No. 4, the Judicial Appointments Commission Bill 2022 - Committee Stage (resumed), to be taken at 4 p.m. and to adjourn at 6 p.m., if not previously concluded; No. 5, statements on school transport to be taken at 6 p.m. and to conclude after 60 minutes, with the time allocated to the opening remarks of the Minister not to exceed six minutes, those of all Senators not to exceed seven minutes, and their time can be shared, with the Minister not to be given less than five minutes to reply to the debate; and No. 6, Private Members' business, Social Welfare (Surviving Cohabitants Pension) Bill 2021 - Second Stage, to be taken at 7 p.m. or on the conclusion of No. 5, whichever is the later, with the time allocated to this debate not to exceed two hours.

Photo of Lisa ChambersLisa Chambers (Fianna Fail)
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I agree with the Order of Business as just outlined. I will start off with a very positive story. A young woman from Westport, Shannon Sweeney, won a bronze medal at the European Elite Boxing Championships last week. A homecoming event was held in Mayo on Sunday. I congratulate her and her very proud coach, Mr. Martin Brennan. I know that a lot of work over many years, not just by Shannon but by the team around her and the boxing club in Westport, went into getting her into a position where she had an opportunity to win a medal. Her fantastic performance in the event meant that she won the bronze medal. We have had some fantastic successes in female boxing in recent weeks and it is great to see the sport doing so well. Katie Taylor paved the way but so many young women are now following in her footsteps. It is great to see. I wish Shannon Sweeney and her family well.

The recent announcement by the Minister for Justice of proposals to change the licensing laws is broadly welcome, although a significant amount of concern is being expressed across the board, including by An Garda Síochána. The Association of Garda Sergeants and Inspectors, AGSI, has acknowledged that reform is needed but it is concerned about how it will be managed in the context of resources and Garda numbers, given the potential for an increase in antisocial behaviour. I understand the Minister and the Government will be providing additional supports for communities to help them to adjust to the new licensing laws. Our licensing laws were out of date and did need updating.In tandem with that, we have a significant issue with antisocial behaviour across the country. It is not just a Dublin issue. It happens everywhere. One can look at other cities in the world. I was recently in Kraków in Poland and in other European cities during the summer. There is a visible police presence on the streets that we just do not see here. I am not sure what the difference is. I was in Spain with my family during the summer and I do not think ten minutes passed without us seeing a member of the police force making people feel safe, because there were many tourists coming in who did not know the area. For some reason, our capital city seems to be different. It is the same for Galway, Limerick, Cork and even smaller towns, like my own town, Castlebar. One just does not see as much of a Garda presence as people would like to see. There is a consistent call from the public to have more gardaí doing community policing, being on the beat and knowing their area. A debate is needed on that. I know other colleagues requested that yesterday. I understand that the Leader's office has requested that from the Minister.

I welcome the change to licensing laws. It is good for business and it is good to have flexibility, because it does not help to have everybody come out onto the streets at the same time. Equally, we need to reassure the public that resources are there to protect people and that antisocial behaviour will be dealt with appropriately.

I know I am almost out of time. Wind Energy Ireland made a presentation in the audiovisual room this morning. There seem to be fantastic opportunities for renewable energy off the coast, particularly the west coast, where it is the windiest, but we seem to be moving at a snail's pace. We were world leaders in renewables and wind energy ten years ago but now we are at the back of the class. It would be great to have a debate in the House at the earliest opportunity about renewables, with a focus on wind energy and offshore wind energy potential. My understanding from the Department's reply is that the technology is not available to install wind energy north of Mayo. Experts who I have spoken to tell me that the technology is available and is currently floating off the coast of Aberdeen in Scotland. It has it but, for some reason, we do not.

Photo of Joe O'ReillyJoe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
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It is hard to stop Senator Chambers in full flow.

Photo of Gerard CraughwellGerard Craughwell (Independent)
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I congratulate the Cathaoirleach who has been awarded the Order of Prince Yaroslav the Wise. I am not sure if it means that he is wise. The award was made by the Ukrainian President and is quite prestigious. I congratulate the Cathaoirleach.

We read in The Journal today that the Departments of Public Expenditure and Reform and Defence are at loggerheads over the continued service of a number of sergeants who joined the Defence Forces in 1994. These valuable, highly skilled, highly trained people will be lost at the end of this year if the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform does not stop its messing. It is unbelievable that that Department has such reach into every single Department. Why do we have Ministers at all? Let us get rid of them all and let the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform run the entire country. I have spoken about the power of the Civil Service. It is becoming annoying. Someone who wants to hire a secretary now has to ask the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform and wait for its blessing. This needs to stop.

I opened the Irish Examinertoday and saw an article about my favourite organisation in Ireland, the Irish Coast Guard, once again. It is about to spend €400,000 plus VAT on pens, pencils, bags, hats, t-shirts and so on related to branding. Will somebody please tell me what cost-benefit analysis went into this madness? We are talking about water safety. A sum of €400,000 would cover a significant education programme for all water users, not just those lucky enough to turn up and get a free hat. Will the free hat do much to save lives? I do not believe it will. This organisation is totally out of control. I already mentioned that we are going to pay over €1 billion for our search and rescue helicopters. While the UK gets 12 bases with 18 helicopters, fixed-wing aircraft and drones for £1.6 billion sterling, we get five helicopters and top cover for over €1 billion. I believe the cost will be between €1.3 billion and €1.5 billion by the time this is signed off.

The Department of Public Expenditure and Reform is stopping a few sergeants who are valuable to the Defence Forces from being retained. What is the Department doing about the money being spent by the Department of Transport and the Irish Coast Guard? The Irish Coast Guard did away with the Royal National Lifeboat Institution, RNLI, life jackets and brought in its own, which were found to be dangerous in 2015 and taken out of service in 2018. Something is wrong with the governance of that organisation. I have spoken on it until I have been blue in the face and I am getting tired of there being no corporate oversight. I mentioned this yesterday. Daniel O'Connell's article at the weekend referred to the lack of oversight and control that politics has over the Civil Service. It is out of control. Each of us has a duty to bring this country back to being one that is governed, not one run by faceless, unelected people.

Photo of Joe O'ReillyJoe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
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I thank Senator Craughwell. I will interject briefly before I call Senator Maria Byrne to speak on behalf of the Fine Gael group. I welcome pupils from the Harold School in Glasthule. It is lovely to have them here. It is good that they want to visit the Houses of Parliament. I also welcome their teachers. Without the initiative of their teachers, they would not be here. This type of visit is central to good civic education and developing citizenship. They are very welcome. I am a former teacher so I appreciate what is involved. It is lovely to have them all here.

Photo of Ned O'SullivanNed O'Sullivan (Fianna Fail)
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Hear, hear.

Photo of Maria ByrneMaria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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I raise an important issue that came to my attention this morning relating to the removal of a road project from a report. This is the second time the project has been removed. The Limerick-Shannon metropolitan area transport report was launched during the week. The northern distributor road has miraculously disappeared from the agenda again. It was previously removed but, following fierce opposition from local councillors and Deputies, the project was put back into the report, but in the final report from the National Transport Authority, it has disappeared. It beggars belief. Where has the road disappeared to? It is necessary for the economic development of the area and for opening up the Moyross area. I acknowledge that a railway line and new rail station were announced for Moyross last week. While that is welcome, we still need the road. We need it to finish the bypass of Limerick city and to stop unnecessary traffic from coming into the centre of the city. The University of Limerick is looking at a significant expansion and many businesses are looking at opening in that area. If this road project is not put back into the report, we will go nowhere. It is a serious issue. I would like the Leader's support on this. I will speak to the Minister for Transport today. It only came to light in the last 24 hours that this road is missing from the report. I ask the Leader for her support on that.

Limerick Going for Gold was held last night. I congratulate Adare Tidy Towns on winning the overall prize of €10,000 and Castleconnell village on coming in second place. It was a highly competitive competition. Many Tidy Towns groups in towns, villages and the city have actively engaged in cleaning up annually and carrying out environmental works in their local areas. It is a wonderful competition. I thank J.P. McManus and the McManus family for their sponsorship of the competition each year. It helps areas, towns and villages to look well and encourages residents to participate.

Photo of Lynn BoylanLynn Boylan (Sinn Fein)
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I seek the leave of the House to amend the Order Paper such that No. 20 will be taken before No. 1. Senator Gavan will second the proposal when his turn to speak comes. Tá áthas orm go bhfuil deis agam cúpla focal a rá faoin mBille tábhachtach seo. Last week, Amazon officially opened its first warehouse in Ireland.It likes to call them fulfilment centres. I know that many will welcome the jobs that it will create locally but, for me, it is a reminder of why we urgently need legislation to ban the deliberate dumping of new non-food products.

In 2018, an investigation in Germany found that Amazon was destroying thousands of new and unused items in its warehouses and, despite the public outcry at the time and Amazon claiming it would do its best to resell and-or donate unsold items, the practice continued. A subsequent undercover investigation in France and Britain revealed that hundreds of thousands of products are going straight to the dump. A leaked spreadsheet from the British fulfilment centre showed products, including laptops, smart TVs, hairdryers, headphones, drones and books, all marked for destruction. When goods go to landfill without ever being used, they do not just waste the product and all of the energy and raw materials that went into making them, but we are also facilitating the greedy overconsumption and unsustainable business model of large corporations.

It is disappointing that while the Government was introducing the circular economy legislation, it had a chance to clamp down on this morally bankrupt carry-on but, unfortunately, it chose not to and rejected the amendments we brought forward. Instead, all we heard was the championing of the levy on plastic coffee cups. That is why I have decided I need to bring forward the legislation that would introduce the ban on the deliberate destruction or dumping of new non-food items that would include those electronic products but also textiles, school equipment, leisure products and furniture. It is too long now that the negative environmental costs have been borne by society. It is time businesses were forced to bear the full costs of their business practices. I hope the Government will adopt this common-sense legislation so it can move swiftly through the Stages and become law.

A final point concerns Commencement matters. There were issues around the responses given to some Members last week. Today, I would like to express my disappointment that my Commencement matter was not taken by the Minister, Deputy Humphreys, or even by a Minister from within that Department. I think it is disrespectful to the House that we do not have somebody who is at least aware of the policy area when taking those questions.

Photo of Joe O'ReillyJoe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
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On behalf of the Labour Party grouping, I call Senator Hoey.

Photo of Annie HoeyAnnie Hoey (Labour)
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I want to raise two arguably differing topics, if the House will indulge me. First, I welcome the announcement by the Minister, Deputy Harris, to review postgraduate supports. This is incredibly important and something I have been campaigning on for a very long time. Only in the past few weeks, I met with the postgraduate workers union, which is doing very important work on representation for postgraduate students as workers. A conversation we need to start having concerns where postgraduate students fall because they are falling into a halfway house between being students yet they are also working, and they are getting neither the benefits nor representation in either of those areas. I support the calls of the postgraduate workers union and believe it has some very interesting and radical ideas about how we can address postgraduates and their framing within the system.

I will not labour the point too much. For context, in the past ten years, postgraduate supports have increased by approximately 3% from some €18,000 to €18,500 yet rents have gone up by 70%. It is not a sustainable model. We pride ourselves on being a land of saints and scholars but unless someone is one of the lucky few who can access scholarship funding or supports, it is not an option to undertake further study. As I said, I welcome the Minister's commitment to reviewing this and I look forward to working with him on it, but if we are being realistic about it, there has been a 3% increase for postgraduate supports in the last ten years and a 70% increase in rents. That is the state of play with regard to postgraduate supports.

The other issue concerns the planning applications to be lodged for two transport projects in Dublin 11 and Dublin 9, one being the railway order for the ever-promised metro project and the other the Ballymun-Finglas to city centre core bus corridor. It is important to note that these current planning consultations are not like the previous non-statutory ones. They are the actual statutory planning processes and the final decision will impact the final constructed design. I know people who have said “Sure we are back at it again and we are being asked for our thoughts yet again on this bus corridor”. I emphasise that this consultation is the one that is going to impact on the final design. It is all around walking, cycling, the provision of enhanced bus measures and so on. I highlight that the deadline for submissions is 15 November 2022, which is coming up soon, and that this is the actual statutory consultation which will have an impact on the final layout and what the final construction design will be.

Photo of Joe O'ReillyJoe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
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On behalf of the Civil Engagement Group, I call Senator Higgins.

Photo of Alice-Mary HigginsAlice-Mary Higgins (Independent)
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I want to formally object to the content of the Order of Business for tomorrow, Thursday, which is done in the form of a motion. Again, it is regrettable that we are seeing Bills being taken at all Stages. This Government has developed too much of an attachment to emergency legislation. I am also conscious in the case of both of these Bills, and I was on the relevant committee for one of them, that the Government asked for a waiver of pre-legislative scrutiny and then is also truncating proper scrutiny in the Chamber. I am very concerned that we are getting a lot of legislation, including in areas which have been well flagged, such as the manner in which we should be dealing with rental protection and protection against evictions, but we are dealing with it in an emergency way and that legislation is not getting proper scrutiny. I know that is not the Leader’s decision but I have to convey formally that this is not good practice.

Similarly, I would agree it is not good practice to have Ministers from unrelated Departments dealing with Commencement matters. Commencement matters must be a matter of engagement. Ministers need to be able to come back and forth and answer, and that is why there is a two-stage process in that regard. If Ministers coming in are not even from the relevant Department, that is a problem. Specifically, the Minister, Deputy Humphreys, perhaps needs to come to this House on a couple of topics, one of which, I would suggest, is the gender-proofing of our pensions system. That is one where it would be very useful to have a debate.

The main issue I want to highlight is one that is fundamental to Ireland's reputation and our credibility internationally. Yesterday, in the Joint Committee on Environment and Climate Action, we heard from representatives of Friends of the Earth, who spoke about the fossil fuel non-proliferation treaty and called for us to take a lead in moving away from fossil fuels internationally. This is complementary to what Senator Chambers has said. In that regard, they highlighted that one of the reasons Ireland would have credibility to lead if it chose to do so was that – this is a near-quote - for decades Ireland, thanks to the dedication of successive Ministers for Foreign Affairs and officials in the Department of Foreign Affairs, has led the way on disarmament and non-proliferation issues at UN level. They highlighted that at the time when the message from everywhere was that everyone needed nuclear weapons or else they were not safe, and that was the responsible thing to do, Ireland was one of the countries that led and said "No" because an arms race makes us less safe. Similarly, we are sometimes being told that fossil fuels are part of what will make us secure in the short term but they are actually exacerbating our vulnerabilities.

Sadly, however, the reason I have to raise this matter is that I am concerned that the credibility built up by successive Ministers for Foreign Affairs over many years is being undermined over the last short period of time. I say that in the context of Ireland having led and been the first country, under Frank Aiken, to sign the nuclear non-proliferation treaty, and having been the country that hosted the successful ban on cluster munitions. I was in Croke Park when we negotiated that. However, Ireland is now in a situation where we have the Minister for Foreign Affairs just over a week ago speaking at an arms fair in the Aviva Stadium, which, if we want to insult the environment further, was called "Building the ecosystem – identifying connections for collaboration in Security, Defence and Dual Technologies". This is a fundamental regressive step. It is a shame to Ireland.

Photo of Paul GavanPaul Gavan (Sinn Fein)
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Well said.

Photo of Joe O'ReillyJoe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
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Thank you. The Senator has made the point well.

Photo of Alice-Mary HigginsAlice-Mary Higgins (Independent)
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If we chase getting some of the money from the arms industry, we lose our diplomatic power, which is so fundamental and which has made a difference and saved lives throughout the world.

Photo of Joe O'ReillyJoe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
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The Senator should conclude.

Photo of Alice-Mary HigginsAlice-Mary Higgins (Independent)
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I have to finish.

Photo of Joe O'ReillyJoe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
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No, the time is up.

Photo of Alice-Mary HigginsAlice-Mary Higgins (Independent)
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This has been part of a move away from 2015, when we were rescuing people in the Mediterranean. That year, our Naval Service membership was the highest. That compares to 2017, when we saw Irish ships being brought to arms fairs.

Photo of Joe O'ReillyJoe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
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I ask Senator Higgins to conclude.

Photo of Alice-Mary HigginsAlice-Mary Higgins (Independent)
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I will conclude but I suggest this is a matter of significant urgency for a House that cares about human rights.

Photo of Joe O'ReillyJoe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
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Senator Higgins will get a reply from the Leader. Is she formally opposing tomorrow's Order of Business?

Photo of Alice-Mary HigginsAlice-Mary Higgins (Independent)
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I am opposing the motion in relation to Thursday.

Photo of Joe O'ReillyJoe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
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That is fine, but I want to clarify if the Senator is proposing an amendment.

Photo of Alice-Mary HigginsAlice-Mary Higgins (Independent)
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I may not oppose the Order of Business, but I will oppose the motion in relation to Thursday which is to be taken separately.

Photo of Joe O'ReillyJoe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
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I thank the Senator. That is fine. We have that. We now move to the two-minute slots.

Photo of Jerry ButtimerJerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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I do not know if you should be saying that.

Photo of Joe O'ReillyJoe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
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I say it with optimism. I call Senator O'Sullivan.

Photo of Ned O'SullivanNed O'Sullivan (Fianna Fail)
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Will the Leader arrange for the Minister, Deputy Catherine Martin, to come before the House for a debate on the many arts and literary festivals that take place around the country? I would like to hear from the Minister on the growing problems with issues of governance and control that have begun to limit the creative freedom and the level of community involvement in some of these events. In recent years we have seen a serious and very necessary tightening up in governance procedures in every walk of life. We know the reasons for that. However, there is increasing evidence that overemphasis on governance issues is leading to a paralysis in creative thinking on many boards, particularly those in which the arts are concerned. The effect is that local endeavour is being chilled and local involvement diminished. Listowel Writers' Week, with which I am familiar, is an internationally renowned festival. Its model has been adopted as a template for similar festivals throughout the country. It is now in its 52nd year. It was the intention of its founders who included our local internationally renowned authors, Dr. Bryan MacMahon and Dr. John B. Keane, that the festival would be devised, organised and managed by the community of Listowel. There was to be no éirí in airde, no intellectual snobbery and no exclusivity about Listowel Writers' Week. That is why it has succeeded. This has been the secret of its success for more than half a century. Recently, however, this community-based model has come under threat with a proposal that an excellent representative committee be abolished and that Listowel Writers' Week henceforth be run by a very small, exclusive board of directors with the help of a paid curator. I need not state the reaction to this proposal in Listowel and in the wider world of literature. It has been one of shock and horror. I do not believe the Minister would wish to see community involvement replaced by small, exclusive boards that would have no answerability and no rapport with people on the ground. The arts will never flourish in the culture of the closed shop. I look forward to the Minister coming in to discuss these matters.

Photo of John McGahonJohn McGahon (Fine Gael)
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I would like to ask for a debate on Irish Water at some stage, hopefully between now and Christmas. I ask for this because of the quality of water in my town of Dundalk, a town of 42,000 people, over the past 18 months. Undoubtedly, Irish Water is very good at communicating with Oireachtas Members and councillors. We all get emails and updates every day. I cannot fault its level of communication, but what I can fault and want to call into question is the type of responses. For the past 18 months in County Louth, we have been getting the exact same responses about why the water quality is so poor in Dundalk. We are told that there is sediment in the pipes and when issues happen, the sediment rises up. To put into context what that means, when you turn on a tap now in Dundalk, brown water runs straight out for the first minute. The advice from Irish Water is to let the tap go for a minute and after that you can drink it. That is not an acceptable solution. It has been happening sporadically for 18 months. I am not rising in the Seanad today just because it has happened in the past two days. This has been happening consistently now for 18 months. It is not acceptable for Irish Water to have the same excuse for 18 months. It leads me to believe there is something else happening. Is there another reason for this? Is there something that Irish Water is not telling us? It cannot be the same excuse consistently every time. It is simply not acceptable in a town of 42,000 people that they do not have quality drinking water, that they are being forced to buy bottled water, and that they are afraid to use the water that comes out of their taps. I am convinced it is not only an issue in my town. I am sure it happens throughout the country. I would appreciate it if the Leader could organise a debate on Irish Water at some stage between now and Christmas.

Photo of Rónán MullenRónán Mullen (Independent)
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We would all want to wish Rishi Sunak the very best as he takes the helm in Britain. Let us hope that his term as Prime Minister will be one where there is a restoration in the quality of British-Irish relations. Let us hope that we are now entering a period of stability and greater rapprochement and understanding. Hopefully there can be important dialogue about issues such as the Troubles amnesty legislation and the Northern Ireland protocol in order that, at a time when the world faces so many challenges on different fronts, we can at least get our British-Irish relations right and start solving some of the problems and getting them out of the way. I think everybody would wish him a fair wind.

On the subject of wind, I attended a Wind Energy Ireland briefing this morning with other colleagues. We heard about the exciting plans to develop wind energy. I understand that more than 28 GW is being planned in the longer term. The aim is to get to 10 GW by 2030. We were informed that wind energy currently supplies around one third of the Irish electricity requirement, as we all know. However, there are many problems, including issues such as whether the community is going to benefit directly. There is a difference between money being given to the GAA locally and various kinds of community benefit funds and the kind of significant community stake in the benefits to be enjoyed for which there is a real desire among the public. Just because we secure the supply of energy through wind energy into the future does not necessarily mean that the price of energy will be kept down sufficiently. That was one of the many issues.

We need to see a greater pragmatism from the Government about solving problems like modular housing, or striking the right balance between consultation with the community and getting things done. I will mention Derrybrien briefly in this context. Just because something was done wrong in the past does not obviate the need for a pragmatic solution at a time of energy crisis. We need to get those windmills turning. It cannot be beyond the wit of this Government to come up with a way to get that done. I hope the Seanad Independent Group will offer a solution to that in the form of Senator McDowell's legislation. It is crazy at a time of an energy crisis that the Government would stand over a situation where 70 turbines are not functioning, not producing electricity and not putting money into the economy. We have so many problems. Let us get real about the problems we face.

Photo of Joe O'ReillyJoe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
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I thank Senator Mullen for that contribution. I am advised by our colleague Senator Buttimer that we have Eoin Wilson and family in the Gallery. It is my great pleasure to welcome them. Eoin is on the administrative and support staff of the Minister, Deputy O'Gorman. Eoin's partner Oisín also works in the Oireachtas and is with us today. We particularly welcome Eoin and family and Oisín. It is great to have them here.

Photo of Jerry ButtimerJerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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We expect greater things.

Photo of Joe O'ReillyJoe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
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Yes. I thank Senator Buttimer for making me aware of that. While I know Eoin, with the glare of the light I did not notice him.

Photo of Paul GavanPaul Gavan (Sinn Fein)
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I second the request of my colleague, Senator Boylan, for a change to the Order of Business.

I find the decision to abandon the northern distributor road in Limerick absolutely staggering. This is an essential part of infrastructure for Limerick city and the surrounding suburbs. It would tackle a number of key issues in regard to traffic congestion and access to the National Technological Park and the Mackey Roundabout. My party, Sinn Féin, and my colleague Deputy Quinlivan campaigned successfully to get the Coonagh to Knockalisheen road built. It was supposed to be part of the northern distributor road, but it has been abandoned. The Limerick and Shannon metropolitan area transport plan has no mention of it whatsoever. I predicted this earlier this year. I take no joy in saying so.We need to be clear. Colleagues on the Opposition benches need to take ownership of this decision. It is a Government decision to abandon the northern distributor road. It sits with the Minister, Deputy Ryan, but as collective Cabinet responsibility, this Government has effectively put the city of Limerick on hold, for God knows how many years. We have already been waiting more than ten years for this road to be built. The most ironic part of this is that the whole point of completing the northern distributor road and of hopefully connecting a motorway to Cork which also seems to be abandoned, was to act as a counterweight or a counterbalance for the west coast against the economic juggernaut of Dublin. The Green Party and this Government have put it on hold so the people of Limerick face nothing more than years more of queueing, traffic, congestion and cars being stuck on the motorway because they cannot access the Mackey Roundabout. Everyone in Limerick knows this is essential. I have heard people from all parties bar the Green Party call for this to happen. It is not going to happen. The Tánaiste said the door was not closed on the northern distributor road. The fact of the matter is that this Government firmly shut that door yesterday regarding an essential piece of infrastructure for Limerick. It is staggering and I call for a debate on the issue.

Photo of Paddy BurkePaddy Burke (Fine Gael)
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There was a meeting last Saturday in Tuam on balanced regional development. Unfortunately I was not able to make it but I agree wholeheartedly with many of the decisions and the sentiments expressed at the meeting. I fully support the West on Track campaign for the extension of the rail line from Athenry to Claremorris. It is needed. I come from Castlebar which is 45 miles from Galway city. Galway is our city. It takes two hours to go 45 miles. If one needs to go to the Galway clinic, the regional hospital or any of those places in Galway, it takes two hours. We have to have a look at this and should have a debate in this House on balanced regional development.

What is balanced regional development? Does that mean one stops the growth of other cities such as Dublin and Cork and say we will grow Galway, Limerick and Sligo and wherever else? There was a time when there were eight Deputies in Mayo. There are now four. There is a boundary commission in place and when it provides its report, there will probably be four in Mayo again. We are getting an extension on the number of representatives sitting in Dáil Éireann, maybe to the order of ten to 15 new or extra Deputies. If we are really talking about balanced regional development, the west and the regional areas need a bigger shout and we should also have a look at the Constitution as regards the figures.

In Scotland for instance, the Hebrides do not have to have the same population numbers to get a Member of Parliament elected as other parts of Scotland. That should be the basis for our balanced regional development policy as well and there would be a bigger shout in Dáil Éireann or wherever else for the regional areas. That is if we are really interested in balanced regional development but there would be some obstacles if we were to bring that in. I ask the Leader to arrange a debate on balanced regional development.

Photo of Eugene MurphyEugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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I want to spend a brief period of time talking about young people being targeted by criminals laundering money. It is certainly very disturbing to read Conor Lally's article in today's edition of The Irish Timeswhere we are told that 3,000 money mules have been used and €12 million from fraud deposited into those accounts. The sad thing about this is that many young people under financial pressure between the ages of 18 and 24 are becoming the victims of this. This is going to lead to all sorts of trouble for these young people. It will mean they will have a criminal record and they are getting tied up with undesirables. That is the reality.

Bank intelligence showed, according to Conor Lally's article, that the average transaction was €4,000. This is shocking and this is what drug culture and drug issues are doing to people. Now we have these criminals using young people. This was a massive issue in England some years ago and still is. We have to do everything in our power as Oireachtas Members to try to combat this.

I appeal to all young people today if they have money issues to talk to their family and their parents, even to their local politician. I urge the financial institutions to look at some sort of scheme with a low interest rate where people who are in difficulty in terms of finances could approach their banks or credit union. We do not want people going down this road. It will cause so much destruction to families and young people and we have to try to stamp it out. I reiterate my appeal to young people who are running into those financial difficulties, to turn their backs on these criminals and not to become a money mule because it will lead to a lot of trouble in their lives, their families' life and for society. We need to stamp this out.

Photo of Joe O'ReillyJoe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
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I thank the Senator for his contribution and his impeccable timing although I am under domestic instructions not to interrupt him or Senator Dolan when they are speaking.

(Interruptions).

Photo of Jerry ButtimerJerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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Will the Vice-Chair explain that?

Photo of Joe O'ReillyJoe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
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I will, later on.

Photo of Tim LombardTim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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I want to raise the issue about services with regard to kids who are autistic. There has been a large amount of work done and I compliment the Minister of State on the amount of units that have been set up in the majority of secondary schools, particularly around Cork. It has been of real benefit to communities and societies. There is a gap in the market at the moment that we need to look at, particularly around special schools which kids who are autistic and do not fit into the mainstream programme attend. Children are travelling from Skibbereen, Clonakilty, all the way into Cork city. There is one child travelling an hour and a half on a bus each way. He is getting a very good service in Cork city may I say.

We need to put strategic plans in place so we have special schools in geographic locations so kids do not have to travel to that degree or spend an hour and a half on a bus. We need a practical solution to a problem we have. There has been much work done but we need to make sure the final pieces of the jigsaw are put in place. Those final pieces are special schools for that cohort of kids who do not fit into the normal mainstream schools. There are significant benefits here for the people involved, for the families and for the entire community. I suggest we should organise a debate with the Minister of State with responsibility for special education about those special schools and where we can build on the work done by Senator Carrigy in particular who chairs a special committee on autism, to ensure we put a programme in place to prioritise these kids going forward and the last piece of the jigsaw can be put in place.

Photo of Garret AhearnGarret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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I will be talking about the same issue. I did not know Senator Lombard was going to talk about it. I also request a debate with the Minister of State with responsibility for special education on special schools and special needs assistants, SNAs, and teachers in particular. It is important to recognise the amount of funding announced in the budget last month. Some €2.6 billion has been ringfenced for special education. That is 27% of the educational funding in total. As part of that, there will be an extra 1,194 SNAs right across the country which is really significant and is going to bring us up to approximately 20,000 SNAs. We need to discuss the role of SNAs and the importance of the role they play. I think we would all agree that financially we are not recognising the important role they play-----

Photo of Garret AhearnGarret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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-----and they really need to be given a decent wage for the important work they do. The Minister of State, Deputy Madigan, visited Tipperary last week and she came to a number of schools. She visited two schools in particular, the fantastic special educational schools that we have in Cashel, namely, Scoil Chormaic and Scoil Aonghusa. She met the two principals, Lorraine Lowry and Siobhan Keyes Ryan, and we saw the phenomenal work that all of teachers and the SNAs do.

As a Government, we really need to recognise that SNAs who work in special educational schools need extra recognition because of the difficult challenges they face, for obvious reasons. The work they do gives such relief to parents during the time their kids spend in those schools.On the greater conversation regarding special needs assistants, SNAs, we all give them platitudes for the service that they provide but they need to be given a salary and decent recognition for the work they do. Simple issues include flat-rate expenses. Flat-rate expenses are given over a four-year term where one can claim money back. They are given to almost every profession in the country, except SNAs. Teachers can claim back €500 over a four-year period because they are teachers but SNAs cannot. It was introduced before SNAs ever existed. Such measures need to be changed to recognise the work that they do.

Photo of Micheál CarrigyMicheál Carrigy (Fine Gael)
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I support the comments of Senators Lombard and Ahearn regarding a debate on schools, in particular, special schools. Yesterday, we held a public session of the Joint Committee on Autism. I thank the Leader for the support that she gave me while we were pushing to get the committee put in place. It is giving the opportunity to parents, in particular, and families to come in and talk about the challenges they have and put forward recommendations. Something that has come out, in particular, from the last number of meetings, was that 14% of children of over 8,000 children who are in the special schools in the country got a school-based summer programme in the summer of 2022. That left more than 6,500 children. The committee passed a resolution yesterday and we will lay a report on the summer programme before both Houses in the middle of November. The resolution states:

That the Joint Committee on Autism
—notes the evidence of parents of autistic children and other stakeholders about difficulties with the Summer Programme
and while not having met all the key stakeholders, given the urgency of the current situation, calls on the Minister for Education to:
—ensure that all autistic children will have access to the Summer Programme in 2023;

—ensure that all Special Schools will provide the Summer Programme in 2023;

—provide sufficient resources to schools in order that they may offer a comprehensive provision of the Summer Programme in 2023;

—liaise with the various stakeholders to ensure that increased numbers of schools participate in the Summer Programme, bringing the resources of Schools together where needed, thereby ensuring that a programme is available in every large town in the country;

—mitigate any constraints to the provision of the Summer Programme including staffing issues such as delays in payment to teachers and SNAs (Special Needs Assistants), resolve any pay anomalies, and to broaden the potential workforce e.g. [employing student] OTs (Occupational Therapists), SLTs (Speech and Language Therapists), early childcare workers, and include suitable student placements;

—mitigate any difficulties with Garda vetting to allow staff to move from one school to another school easily.

That is coming from a joint committee of all parties putting out our view. A report will come before both Houses in the next number of weeks. We want to see a situation where, in 2023, at a minimum every special school has a school-based summer programme.

The Government has put in place €40 million for the programme. The funding is there. The principals and the boards of management know that the support will be there. They need to start organising a programme for summer 2023 now.

Photo of Joe O'ReillyJoe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
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It is my great pleasure to welcome the pupils of Christ the King school in Cork. Senators Buttimer and Lombard are looking over attentively at their arrival. I understand that they are guests of the Taoiseach today. I offer a special welcome also to their teachers without whom this could not take place. It is great to have them here. It is important for citizenship to become aware of what happens in the Houses of democracy. I hope we will impress them a little.

Photo of Emer CurrieEmer Currie (Fine Gael)
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I concur with my colleagues, Senators Carrigy, Lombard and Ahearn, that we should have a debate. It should be specifically about special schools to ring-fence some time on that. School building responsibilities sit with the Minister, Deputy Foley, whereas special education is with the Minister of State, Deputy Madigan. We need to balance that because it is about school buildings and then the supports within those buildings. In Dublin 15, we fought for years to get our special school, Danu. A committee of parents drove that. They were promised a dedicated purpose-built building in Dublin 15. Over the past couple of years, their children have been in accommodation that we thought would be temporary but that may become permanent in Rath Dara. The demand is still there for a stand-alone purpose-built special school. It is what those children deserve.

I received a report in my inbox this morning from two students in Le Chéile school in Tyrellstown, Rebecca and Dalia, who did a report into the status of women versus the status of democracy in Ireland. They have pulled out some important key points that I wanted to mention. They disagree with the statement that the status of women reflects the status of democracy in Ireland and I agree with them. It is surprising the number of people who do not agree with them. They point to female political representation in Ireland being below the EU average, at 27.7% versus 31.2%; the fact that there are only 36 women in Dáil Éireann compared to 124 men; the gender pay gap is 1% higher than the EU average; and Ireland ranks 17th in the EU concerning political decision-making in respect of women. They have pulled out some excellent recommendations that we gradually increase gender quotas in the Dáil until it reaches 50%, that gender quotas be introduced in local authorities and that a weekly mandatory CSPE class for senior-cycle students is made mandatory. Well done to them.

Photo of Jerry ButtimerJerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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I welcome the students from Christ the King and, in particular, the teachers here. Ms O'Leary is the co-ordinator and she is very welcome. She comes with very special privileges. A former pupil of mine told me that his daughter was here today. They are from a great club called Na Piarsaigh. I will not call her out because she might be embarrassed but she knows who she is. They are very welcome. I commend the Christ the King transition year students here. It is a tremendous school in Cork and we are lucky to have a school of that calibre in our city.

I am glad the young women are here today because I want to raise the issue of LGBT rights in Afghanistan. Yesterday, Deputy Gannon organised a briefing with LGBT Ireland of displaced men and women from Afghanistan who had to leave because of their sexuality. As Members will be aware, in my case, as an openly gay Member of the House, I have the privilege and the sanctity and the freedom to come in here and speak my mind. I can disagree with Members about whatever issue but I am free to come in here and speak. I ask the Leader to facilitate a debate on human rights around the world and on LGBT rights. We are at a tipping point, in advance of the mid-term elections in America, given what is happening in many parts of the world, especially around Afghanistan where the Taliban, as we speak, are going into villages and asking the elders and families to identify and name their LGBT family members so that they can gain social credit with the Taliban as an example. Let us think about it in the context of a man or woman who is lesbian, gay or transgender in Afghanistan and imagine having to admit to somebody one is gay, to plan an escape route out of Afghanistan, to go on that journey, and then to reach a point where one seeks and receives sanctuary. My final point in this request to the Leader is around the issue of visa waivers from the Government.I appreciate and accept that we have huge issues around refugees and in respect of housing and availability of accommodation. I ask Members to listen back to this morning's "Morning Ireland", on which Basira, a 24-year-old woman from Afghanistan, spoke about having to come to Ireland. This is an important debate we need to have in this House not just during Pride but also now in order that we can use our seat on the UN Security Council to herald and promulgate change.

Thank you for your indulgence, a Leas-Chathaoirligh.

Photo of Joe O'ReillyJoe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
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Thank you, Senator Buttimer, for raising that serious matter.

Photo of Aisling DolanAisling Dolan (Fine Gael)
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The Leader has heard from a number of Members about special schools and the summer programme. Roughly €40 million has been allocated to the programme. I asked about it and principals came to me with some feedback. One in four schools rolled the programme out last year but we need more of our mainstream schools doing so as well because we are looking to bring children with special needs into our mainstream schools and for our special schools to handle children with more severe to complex, challenging needs. It needs to be made clear that, for our special schools, there are more challenging behaviours and that getting new teachers to come in to do the summer programme can be a challenge. Some of the special schools have looked to see about central vetting processes for SNAs. This is not about the schools themselves having to go to Garda stations and so on. Perhaps there should be panels for teachers, particularly for special schools, because additional training may be required as opposed to special classes within mainstream schools. Those are just some issues for the Minister, who might come in to speak to us, to take into consideration.

I wish to raise two other matters. We know about all the families and people living around Rahara and Ballagh, that is, around Lough Funshinagh. There are the rising flood levels of the turlough. Senator Murphy has raised this on a number of occasions. I welcome the group appearing today before the agriculture committee. Public representatives, the Minister of State, Deputy O'Donovan, and OPW officials met with the Lough Funshinagh group in July. Further progress updates on the plans we need to put in place will take place in October. This is a difficult situation because environmental assessments are required. The matter has gone down the legal route. There have been High Court actions.

Finally, regarding West on Track, and to follow up on Senator Burke's contribution, I attended the meeting in Tuam to which he referred. This is about how we develop that region and about investment coming into Galway and the west. The Western Development Commission, the Northern and Western Regional Assembly, NWRA, and the Committee of the Regions attended the meeting. We need to be conscious that we can provide regional cycleways while also developing our train tracks and bringing investment and tourism into the west.

Photo of Joe O'ReillyJoe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
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Before the Leader replies to the debate, I join in the congratulations Senator Craughwell offered on behalf of everyone to the Cathaoirleach on the distinction granted to him by the Ukrainian Government. I am not sure of all the detail of it, but we all congratulate him.

Photo of Regina DohertyRegina Doherty (Fine Gael)
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I join you, a Leas-Chathaoirligh, in those congratulations. It is lovely when somebody else, not just your own, recognises your brilliance. I wish the Cathaoirleach congratulations and continued success.

Senators Dolan, Carrigy, Ahearn and Lombard have looked for probably two debates. One is about special schools and their locations and, particularly, the length of the journeys some of our children have to make in the morning just to attend a special school in the absence of having one in their own locality. There was a mooted debate a number of years ago in the Department of Education to make a decision to co-locate a special school on the same grounds as every new school that was being built. I am not sure if that has gone awry but I will certainly organise a debate on special schools and special education delivery. Separately, I congratulate Senator Carrigy because the work of the Joint Committee on Autism is coming to a conclusion. Maybe we will arrange to have a debate between now and Christmas, when the committee's report is due to be published, on the report distinctly and separately from a debate on the special schools building programme. We will try to do both between now and recess in December.

Senator Buttimer asked for a debate on human rights, specifically LGBT rights, in light of the stories we have heard in recent days of members of the LGBT community fleeing Afghanistan and how horribly they are being treated.

Senator Currie spoke of a report by two young ladies in Le Chéile Secondary School. We like their style and would like to see a lot of what they have asked for implemented.

Senator Murphy spoke about the horrendous story of the 3,000 young people being used as money mules by criminal gangs. We need a hell of a lot more debate and research on and, particularly, assistance for people in that age group because they are susceptible to being used, as we can see. Money is an allure, particularly for young people who do not have any.

Senator Burke wants a debate on regional balanced development. We will organise that. Senator Dolan touched on that matter as well.

Senator Gavan seconded Senator Boylan's amendment to the Order of Business. I am happy to accept the amendment. That is no problem at all. Senator Gavan also asked for a debate on the final report of the NTA, as did Senator Maria Byrne. I do not think Senator Gavan was here when Senator Byrne was present earlier. To my mind, something underhand is definitely afoot. We need to call on the Minister to make a specific statement today on the absence, for the second time, of the northern distributor road, it having been put back in when we brought the matter to his attention the first time. I have made contact with his office and, therefore, as soon as I have any response I will come back to the Senators. If, however, we do not get a satisfactory response, I will arrange the debate, in which case I will come back to the Senators beforehand and let them know.

Senator Mullen spoke about his pleasure at the election of Rishi Sunak as the new British Prime Minister. I hope I am not speaking out of turn in saying that I hope to see from today the return of dignity to politics in the United Kingdom, specifically with regard to the relationship that has faltered in recent years, during the terms of the previous two prime ministers. The thing that gives me a little hope is the number of times during the summer debates Prime Minister Sunak mentioned Ireland and Northern Ireland. I hope for a return to some respect and dignity in the relationships we share.

Senator McGahon asked for a debate on Irish Water because of the ongoing two-year disruption and provision of brown water to the people of Dundalk. He spoke about not only the quality of water but also the quality of responses, or probably the lack of quality responses from Irish Water. We will try to arrange that debate.

Senator O'Sullivan asked for a debate on the governance and control of arts and literary festivals. The Minister, Deputy Catherine Martin, will be here on 8 November to talk about safe spaces and the arts report, so that might be an opportunity to discuss both matters. I will come back to the Senator and see if that is acceptable. If not, we will organise something different.

Senator Higgins expressed her concerns about the order for tomorrow. I totally take on board what she said and appreciate the concerns she raised. She also mentioned some issues with Commencement matters. Other colleagues have raised such issues in recent weeks. It might be worthwhile for the Committee on Parliamentary Privileges and Oversight, CPPO, to do an analysis in order that we can see what kind of a response we are getting and from whom. I can appreciate that it is not acceptable for somebody who just might happen to be on the rota on a particular day to have to come before the House to take a Commencement matter because they will not necessarily know the lie of the land of the Department in question. We will look at that in the CPPO and come back to the Senators on it.

Senator Hoey asked for a debate on postgraduate funding and welcomed the review the Minister is doing. She spoke about the statutory processes ongoing with regard to the metro project and BusConnects.

Senator Boylan proposed the amendment to the Order of Business and discussed the Bill she hopes to bring forward soon to discuss what is absolutely unethical behaviour on the part of one of the largest corporations operating in this country. When we look at lists of the wealthiest institutions, industries and countries, Amazon appears a lot higher on such lists than probably some 40 or 50 countries, so its power is not lost on any of us. I wish the Senator well with her legislation.

As I said, Senator Maria Byrne spoke about the removal of the northern distributor road. I will come back to her and Senator Gavan later.

Senator Craughwell spoke about the Departments of Public Expenditure and Reform and Defence and the row they are having at the moment about sergeants. I noted with some amusement Senator Craughwell's request this morning that maybe the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform should just take over. I am sure the Department would be delighted if we all decided that it should take over because it is at the centre of continuous discussions and disagreements with all other Departments. I will raise the Senator's concerns as he raised them this morning with the Minister.

Senator Chambers talked about the welcome changes to the licensing laws, although there were mixed reviews yesterday. The thing that probably concerns me the most is that, whether patrons have mixed reviews, they are in charge of their response to the law as to whether they go to the pub later, but those who do not have any responsibility for the changes and for how patrons will act are An Garda Síochána. I believe we need to see extra resources, particularly around the hours of the extensions. The really worrying thing - and I agree with what the Senator said about this earlier - is that while we hear that never before have we had as many gardaí in the force, which is true, it is also true that never before have we seen so few of them on our streets.The growing concerns we have around antisocial behaviour need to be addressed, and I will try to organise a debate on that.

Senator Chambers asked for a debate on wind energy, as did Senator Mullen. I look forward to a time by 2027 or 2030 when apparently our energy bills will be slashed, because they are not slashed today. We need to have the conversation now. If the technology is there and we are being told it is not, we need to find out why. We will have a debate on this, which I will organise.

Photo of Joe O'ReillyJoe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
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I thank the Leader her comprehensive and individualised response.

It is my great pleasure to welcome the parents and uncle of our colleague, Deputy Kathleen Funchion, who join us in the Visitors Gallery. It is good to have them in the Chamber.

Senator Boylan has proposed an amendment to the Order of Business: "That No. 20 be taken before No. 1." The amendment was seconded by Senator Gavan.

Amendment agreed to.

Order of Business, as amended, agreed to.