Mary Seery Kearney (Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister very much for taking my Commencement matter today. Medical and psychological professionals throughout the world have stated that LGBTI people who experience conversion therapy are almost twice as likely to think about or attempt suicide than their peers who have not experienced conversion therapy. Let us be very clear; conversion therapy is based on a particular mindset that denies that people are actually gay. It is a mindset that denies people's sexual and gender identity. I am a proponent of the Lady Gaga "born this way" mentality. How dare anybody tell another person they are not what they say they are? For whatever reason, whether religious or otherwise, people assert a right to actively engage people in conversion therapy. This only purports to be a therapy and is actually quite a violent psychological abuse of an individual associated with shame which leads to the consequent statistics on suicidal ideation among members of the community post conversion therapy. Any treatment aimed at changing a person's sexual orientation or gender identity is a shameful application of something that should not be tolerated in any society and particularly in ours.

I appreciate that there is a commitment in the programme for Government, which the Minister has reiterated, to bring in a legislative ban on conversion therapy. I also appreciate that, on 8 July, the Minister launched a research programme into conversion therapy and the experiences of people coming out of it in Ireland. I am concerned that while we research, people are actively being abused and undermined in who they are. The psychological damage is ongoing. I am anxious that we very quickly move to define conversion therapy. It should be about the objective and we should not micromanage or get into the particular types of therapy, who does it or how it is done. Anything that seeks to undermine the sexual or gender identity of an individual should be banned. It is one thing to seek psychological support in how to live or how to come out to one's family. I appreciate that strain of therapy but that is not what this is.Conversion therapy has a very definite objective so we must legislate to ban the objective. I suggest that because I am concerned about some programmes. The likes of the international Living Waters programme purport to be about helping people who may have been victims of sexual assault or abuse. The operators of these programmes bring people in under that guise but have other agendas. Once people are in the vulnerable atmosphere of a group counselling session where there is a discussion and perhaps more information revealed but other objectives then come to the fore. We must guard against that objective and make sure that we do not permit that objective to be permissible. Conversion therapy is tantamount to hate speech and the denial of who a person is so we must legislate against it, as a matter of urgency.

Joe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
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Without transgressing the role of the Chair, I thank the Senator for raising this matter.

Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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I thank the Senator for raising this important matter and welcome the opportunity to update the House on progress to ban the practice of so-called conversion therapy.

As we know, Ireland has become a proud, progressive and modern State that cherishes all people equally. We have made great strides in recent decades to promote equality and respond to the needs of a diverse population. We have a strong record as a champion of human rights internationally and have been at the forefront of advancing equality for LGBTI+ people.

Despite these advances challenges remain for members of our LGBTI+ community. We have seen those challenges manifest in the form of attacks on members of that community, physical attacks and attacks online over the course of the last year. This means that members of the LGBTI+ community do not always feel safe in public spaces. They continue to experience unacceptable levels of harassment, violence and discrimination. LGBTI+ people also face particular health issues. Therefore, we, in Government, have more work to do and we are committed to doing so.

I am here to discuss the Government's plans to progress the ban on the abhorrent practice of conversion therapy in Ireland. As members will be aware, the programme for Government contains a commitment to legislate to ban conversion therapy, which is a commitment that the Government takes very seriously. Both the LGBTI+ National Youth Strategy and the LGBTI+ National Inclusion strategy contain commitments around the issue of conversion therapy. Both of these strategies are underpinned by a whole-of-Government approach.

Senator Seery Kearney spoke about how damaging conversion therapy is to people having counselled some of those who have been subjected to this practice. I, too, know about the deep psychological damage done by conversion therapy as I have spoken to two people who have been subjected to these practices. At the time of the conversion therapy one of them was in their late teens while the other person was in their early teens. They can attest to the fact that the experience had a deep and lasting impact on their development and acceptance of being gay.

It is in recognition of the seriousness negative effects of conversion therapy and the different areas in which it manifests that we have acted in a way to develop research in order to find and understand exactly where conversion therapy happen in our country, and in what circumstances so that we can design legislation explicitly to address that. For these reasons, my Department commissioned research aimed at capturing the views and experiences of people who have been subjected to conversion practices in Ireland. It is multi-phased and mixed-methodology research. The research includes a survey that is open to all members of the public, interviews with people who have experienced conversion therapy and an examination of the growing body of international research literature on the issue. The findings from our research will assist the Government to develop legislation to ban conversion therapy. The research is being conducted by an expert team in Trinity College and I expect it to be completed very shortly. We are also examining international jurisdictions in this regard. Earlier this week I met a delegation from Malta and that country was one of the first EU countries to ban conversion therapy.

In recent weeks, officials in my Department have engaged with officials in the Office of the Attorney General to identify the key legal issues that must be addressed in any new legislation. We have research examining the real-life practices of conversion therapy so we understand that and there is ongoing work to identify the key legal issues that any legislation must address. The Government and my Department will continue to progress this and we will look to have legislative proposals in the next number of months. This legislation is a key issue for the Government and myself, as Minister with responsibility for equality issues. I am happy to continue to engage with Members of this House as we go forward in terms of giving updates on where we are going and I hope to soon bring forward legislative provisions.

Joe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister for his response.

Mary Seery Kearney (Fine Gael)
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It would be remiss of me not to commend Senator Warfield on the work that he has done in this area. I also commend my colleague, Luke Corkery, who is a member of LGBT Young Fine Gael and has constantly advocated in this regard.

The UN Special Rapporteur on Freedom of Religion or Belief is Dr. Ahmed Shaheed. Last year, he said the following to UK MPs that the international rights law is clear that, "the right to freedom of religion or belief does not limit the state's obligation to protect the life, dignity, health and equality of LGBTQ+ persons". He also said: "banning such discredited, ineffective, and unsafe practices that misguidedly try to change or suppress people's sexual orientation and gender is not a violation of the right to freedom of religious or belief under international law". I quote Dr. Shaheed because I agree with him following my experience of talking to people and counselling people over the years who are in the aftermath of these experiences, and it is in that spirit that this occurs.

I imagine that the Minister will hear the argument against legislation by people saying that this is a matter of freedom of religion versus a person's dignity. I commend the Minister for moving this matter forward. I also commit to support him all the way through the legislative process in order to ensure we have robust legislation that outlaws this practice and cherishes everyone in our communities.

Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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So-called conversion therapy is a deeply secretive practice. From what I have heard conversion therapy solely works on the notion of shame and shaming the person who is gay, trans or whatever and builds on that shame. The reason people do not know about conversion therapy is because it is done in secret. I feel that it is important when drafting legislation that we have a clear basis to say that there are very real people, though not a huge number, for whom conversion therapy has had an immense negative impact on their lives. Whether this so-called therapy has a religious background or an alleged psychological background, there is deep and long-lasting damage done to people. I have sought to be consistent in terms of bringing forward evidence and legislation. I know that people would have liked to see this legislation move more quickly. I do not want anyone to be in any doubt about the fact that this legislation is a priority for me and this Government. We will legislate and pass legislation to ban conversion therapy in this country.

Mary Seery Kearney (Fine Gael)
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Excellent and well done.