Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy English, to the House finally, following the Dáil votes.

Before we commence, I remind Senators that a Member may speak only once on Report Stage, except the proposer of an amendment, who may reply to discussion on the amendment and each non-Government amendment must be seconded.

Amendment No. 1 arises out of committee proceedings. Is there someone who will second Senator Gavan’s amendment?

Paul Gavan (Sinn Fein)
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No.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Amendment No. 1 then falls.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Amendment No. 2 arises out of committee proceedings. Amendments Nos. 2, 7 and 8 are related and may be discussed together by agreement. Is that agreed? Agreed. Senator Sherlock is not here, so amendment No. 2 will fall as well.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Amendments Nos. 3 to 5, inclusive, are ruled out of order. They have previously been rejected by a committee of the whole Seanad.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Amendment No. 6 is ruled out of order as a potential charge on the Revenue.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Amendment No. 7 arises out of committee proceedings. It has been grouped with amendment No. 2. Senator Sherlock is not here, so it falls.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Amendment No. 9 arises out of committee proceedings, but Senator Sherlock is not here, so it falls.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Amendments Nos. 10 to 14, inclusive, are ruled out of order. They have previously been rejected by a committee of the whole Seanad.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Amendments Nos. 15 and 16 are ruled out of order as potential charges on the Revenue.

Ollie Crowe (Fianna Fail)
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May I speak?

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator cannot speak to the amendment because it is out of order.

Ollie Crowe (Fianna Fail)
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My understanding is that we could speak.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator cannot speak to the amendment because it is out of order.

Ollie Crowe (Fianna Fail)
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I will speak to the Bill.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator can speak to the Bill. He may go ahead.

Ollie Crowe (Fianna Fail)
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I just want to make a couple of valid points. Naturally, I thank the Minister of State for his continuous presence here over the past number of evenings.

As the Acting Chair outlined, I want to speak to the Bill and Senator Casey will speak as well. Many Senators have outlined that throughout the progress of the Bill we have expressed concerns about the impact this will have on small businesses, particularly those in hospitality and customer-facing sectors. Hospitality and retail are the most obvious examples where anyone out due to illness will need to be replaced so that the other staff are not under enormous pressure. As a representative of the Licensed Vintners Association, LVA, the Acting Chairman is well familiar with that. In hospitality, if an employer is suddenly looking for a staff member to work at the weekends and replace someone who is ill, the reality is they will probably have to offer time and a half or double time. Between that and paying the ill employee, naturally enough, employers are impacting on their overheads.

As I outlined previously, I support the Bill, which I believe all Members do, despite some differing views on how it should be implemented. My concern is that small businesses are still seeking to recover from the Covid pandemic in challenging circumstances. They are dealing with a range of challenges in addition to this, particularly with regard to inflation and supply chain issues.

Following on from that, a number of SMEs have contacted me expressing concern about the additional costs their businesses will face under this legislation. As I said previously, these are good, honest and decent employers who want to do the right thing by their staff. However, between the number of issues I have outlined, they are under significant pressure to keep their businesses going. I have seen it suggested that this legislation will add 1% or 2% to their payroll bill.While 1% or 2% may sound a small amount, for many SMEs that might have seven or eight staff, bar restaurants or shops, that is potentially thousands of euro per year. SMEs tell me it is money they simply do not have in the current climate.

With the Minister of State, Deputy English, present, I again want to outline that I am supporting the Bill but I urge the Government to get ahead and to address this issue before it becomes a major problem. I welcome the comments from the Minister of State, Deputy English, last week in the House that it should and could happen, but I would prefer something more certain. As we are all aware, SMEs are the backbone of the Irish economy and there is an onus on all of us, in particular the Government, to ensure their sustainability is at the heart of this legislation.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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I appreciate that we are where we are with the Bill and if I was sitting where the Senator is sitting, I would probably be echoing the same points. However, from the Chair, I have to be neutral and I must point out that, at this stage, where the Bill has been received for final consideration, only very brief comments can be made. I invite Senators Ahearn and Casey to make brief points.

Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister of State. I welcome the Bill and it is not before time that it has been brought through. I recognise the amendments have been ruled out of order due to the potential cost to the Exchequer but, to be fair to small businesses, this is in recognition of the fear they have of the cost element of this measure coming through.

To be fair to the Tánaiste, when he was here on Second Stage he recognised that and he has not ruled out some sort of rebate being brought in at a later stage. Obviously, the businesses themselves would like that to be done now and put in as part of this legislation, and we put this amendment forward to support them.

In the grand scheme of things, the Bill is very positive and is more than welcome. However, there is an element for small businesses that have been under severe pressure in the last year or two due to Covid and now the cost of living. I ask that this be taken into account. They want to work with the Government on this and they understand why this is being brought forward. We need to ensure that this group, which is essential to our economy, is protected and is not adversely affected in a significant away by this legislation.

Pat Casey (Fianna Fail)
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I have no problem with the Bill in regard to the sick pay aspect. However, when we are drafting legislation, we should honestly and clearly identify that there is a significant difference in sick pay for a large company when compared with a small company, or for a small SME when compared with a large SME. Tied into all of that equation, when calculating this we have to take into account industries that have high labour costs as a percentage of turnover, because it is a double-whammy for them, as opposed to industries that have a very low percentage of labour costs to turnover. This has a significant impact on the viability of these industries, whether in terms of the type of the industry or the size of the industry.

My two colleagues have spoken on this and I know we are not in a position to move this specific amendment. However, under the legislation, there is a report to be generated within the next 18 months. During that period, I ask the Minister of State to commit to looking at this more closely in regard to the small SME sector to see how we can help it get through this and give its employees the very same opportunity as large-scale employers. That is all I am asking. Given that a report has to be drafted under the legislation, I am asking that, as part of that report, we focus in on the impact this is having on the small SME sector and how it might affect its viability into the future.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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I have had representations made to me on the same note. Again, while I have to be completely impartial in the Chair, those points have been very well made by all of the Senators. I call the Minister of State to reply.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the House for facilitating this discussion. We were anxious to get this legislation through before the summer break of the Houses, so that is important.I thank everybody for their help and for all their work. I thank the officials. Ms Wendy Gray who put a lot of work into this legislation over a long period of time could not be with us today. I want to give her a shout-out because she put a lot of work into this important Bill that both Houses wanted. Approximately a year and a half ago the Tánaiste committed that we would bring it forward.

We are conscious this will mean extra costs for employers. Senator Casey clarified the difference between larger businesses and smaller and medium enterprises. Senators Crowe and Ahearn mentioned customer-facing roles. Certainly when it comes to retail and hospitality there is a lot of pressure on the system. Many businesses tell us their concern is not so much about the beginning of the sick leave scheme but about when employees increase their number of days. It is something the Tánaiste, departmental officials and I have committed to keeping an eye on and reviewing. We will do this as part of our ongoing review of legislation. Some of the amendments proposed a rebate. There should be some supports for businesses and this is something we will analyse. On Committee Stage I said we could look at other supports through a development agency, perhaps the local employment offices. We are aware and conscious of it.

This is important legislation. Everybody wanted it. We are one of the few countries in Europe that does not have a statutory sick pay scheme. We are conscious that it will put extra pressure on employers. We want to continue with a very strong jobs-led recovery but we cannot take it for granted. We are conscious that any increase in costs can jeopardise jobs. We will keep an eye on it and we are prepared to step in if needs be. We have to keep our cost base in order. We are conscious that it will be more difficult for some sectors.

With regard to legislation generally, we try to find the sweet spot to be able to assist small businesses. It can be difficult because a small business can have a large turnover. It is not always easy to find the spot to kick in. We will track and monitor this and we will respond if needs be. I am conscious we had a similar conversation with Senator Gavan on the cost of medical bills and certification costs. It is outside the scope of the Bill but it is something we are working on to be able to assist overall. It is a positive measure and it will be important legislation for employees. It will also strengthen Ireland's hand in attracting talent and staff. We have a difficulty with sourcing the talent we need from the European employee market. I hope we will be able to build on this and become a more attractive place for employees.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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I thank Senators Ahearn, Casey, Crowe and Gavan for their co-operation. I thank the Minister of State, Deputy English.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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When is it proposed to take Fifth Stage?

Ollie Crowe (Fianna Fail)
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Now.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Is that agreed? Agreed.