Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire Stáit. We are all looking forward to debating the report of the Commission on the Future of the Defence Forces. I welcome the indications by the Minister for Defence, Deputy Simon Coveney, that there will be an increase in defence spending of the order of about €500 million, although, on the basis of the recommendations within the commission report, this could be viewed as somewhat conservative, even though it is about a 50% increase. The commission set out very clearly that it believes we should be looking at being ambitious to bring Ireland in line in our spending on defence with similar-sized EU countries. If we take the example of Finland, one of our fellow non-aligned countries and of similar size, it currently has a budget of €2.8 billion, almost three times that of Ireland, and recently announced an increase of €2 billion in spending.

The Minister of State may be aware of the comments yesterday by the Chief of Staff, Lieutenant-General Seán Clancy, around the adequacy of the Defence Forces. This Commencement matter had been tabled in advance of his address but he did make the point that if we are to ensure that we can protect our sovereignty, particularly in light of what has happened in Ukraine, then we must have adequate investment in our Defence Forces.

My question today is around Ireland's defence capabilities in the event of an attack. People traditionally think about attacks as soldiers on the ground, marching over a border and invading a country, as we have seen in Ukraine, but that is not the nature of modern warfare. What we see increasingly is incursions into airspace, into our maritime area and, more and more, in cyberspace. I do not believe that Ireland is sufficiently well defended, nor do I believe we can defend our sovereignty in the event of an attack from an alien power.

If we look at some of the specific areas, for example, in terms of a potential air incursion, we have inadequate radar to be able to pick that up. Where we have had incidents in the past of Russian aircraft illegally operating in Irish space, we rely on the Royal Air Force to defend us in those circumstances.Not so long ago we had a maritime incursion. In this hybrid attack by Russia, which was an invasion of our sovereignty, we saw Russian warships based off the south-west coast of Ireland. Had they done anything to the transatlantic cables, the damage to our country, economically and socially, would have been enormous. Last year we saw what I would regard as a terrorist attack, the cyberattack on the HSE. We will see more and more of those. It is not unreasonable to expect that if Ireland votes in a particular way at the UN Security Council, all the traffic lights in Dublin will go down.

This is not the world of science fiction; it is the reality of what we are facing. As we are now having debates on food security and energy security, we need our debates on defence capability to be broader than those simply focused on the Department of Defence. We should co-operate with Sweden, Finland, Austria and the other non-aligned countries. I hope the Minister of State will answer my questions on behalf of the Department today. What are our defence capabilities at present in these areas? What measures will we take to address them?

Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Senator for his important question. I am happy to respond on behalf of the Minister for Defence, Deputy Coveney. The priority for the Minister for Defence is to ensure that the operational capability of the Army, Air Corps and Naval Service is maintained and developed to enable the Defence Forces to carry out their roles as assigned by the Government, including overseas deployments.

The White Paper on Defence of 2015 set out an ambitious programme of capital investment for the Naval Service, including for the mid-life refitting and upgrading of the P50 class of vessels and the replacement of the flagship LE Eithnewith a multi-role vessel. It is the Government's intention that the new vessel will provide flexible and adaptable capability for a wide range of maritime tasks.

The White Paper, in addressing Air Corps capability, provided for the replacement of the Cessna and Casa 235 fleets. The Cessnas have now been replaced by three Pilatus PC-12 aircraft in the intelligence, surveillance, target acquisition and reconnaissance, ISTAR, role, providing a substantially increased capability with their state-of-the-art surveillance technology. A further Pilatus PC-12 was procured arising from the demands of Covid. A contract for the supply of two C295 maritime patrol aircraft to replace the two Casa 235s was signed with Airbus in 2019, with delivery of the aircraft expected in 2023. The C295s are larger and more capable than those they replace and will enable the Air Corps to conduct maritime patrols and surveillance across Ireland's area of maritime interest, with enhanced capabilities.

While the primary role of the Defence Forces with regard to cybersecurity, which the Senator mentioned, relates to the defence and security of their own networks and systems, the Department of Defence and the Defence Forces are committed to participating, under the leadership of the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications, in the delivery of measures to improve the cybersecurity of the State. The Department of Defence has received a capital allocation under the national development plan of €566 million over the 2022-25 timeframe. Within that capital allocation, the Defence annual capital budget for 2022 is €141 million. This will enable continued investment in defence equipment, including major platforms and barracks infrastructure.

The report of the Commission on the Defence Forces, which the Senator mentioned, and the current events in Ukraine are prompting an open debate and consideration of our defence requirements. I fully accept there is an ongoing requirement to consider whether the capabilities we maintain are appropriate, having regard to the security environment, the roles that we wish the Defence Forces to undertake and the likely risks. The report of the commission was published on 9 February 2022, as the Senator knows. The commission's terms of reference included the consideration of appropriate capability, structures and staffing for the Army, Air Corps and Naval Service. I understand the commission's report is being fully considered in consultation with other Ministers and stakeholders. The intent is for the Minister for Defence to revert to the Government with a proposed response and a high-level action plan in advance of the summer recess.The establishment of an independent commission on the Defence Forces underpins the Government's commitment to ensuring the Defence Forces are fit for purpose, both in terms of meeting immediate requirements and in terms of seeking to develop a longer term vision beyond 2030.

Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister of State for the response, and while I appreciate she is answering on behalf of the Department of Defence, I am concerned by it. My question is on our defence capability. If we faced an air or sea incursion or a serious cyberattack on critical infrastructure in the State, can we be confident we would be able to address those attacks? As an independent, sovereign State, one of the marks of sovereignty is being able to defend and protect that sovereignty, but on the basis of the response and the evidence presented, it is very clear Ireland cannot defend its sovereignty in the event of an air incursion, an incident in the maritime space or a cyberattack. I appreciate that significantly more investment is happening, but if such attacks now happen, it is very clear from the response given here that we do not have the capability to deal with them. In terms of the role of the State, the defence of our sovereignty is one of the most important responsibilities. This has to be treated as a priority.

Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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The Senator is correct in saying that we need to treat this as a priority, and the Minister for Defence, Deputy Coveney, is doing so. He very much welcomes the open discussion and debate around whether we can defend our sovereignty. That is the pertinent question that needs to be teased out. The Irish people need to be reassured we have adequate defence mechanisms. The Senator mentioned the prospect of Russia invading our space, so to speak, and the British Royal Air Force having to come into our waters. He also spoke about the risks to the transatlantic cables and about cybersecurity. I have noted all of those points and will raise them with the Minister for Defence.

On the issue of threat assessments and the two White Papers I mentioned earlier, my understanding is the assessments have indicated a low probability of a conventional military attack on the State. However, they also point to the fact that security channels are such that no single country can deal with these threats alone. That is important in terms of context. I can assure the Senator that the Minister Defence is committed to this work and has said so on numerous occasions. As Senator Byrne mentioned, the Minister is increasing the budget for the Defence Forces. I also note what the Senator said about Finland, a similar-sized country, and the amount of money it is spending. I do not think any conversation should be off the table on this particular issue.