Seanad debates

Thursday, 3 March 2022

10:30 am

Photo of Regina DohertyRegina Doherty (Fine Gael)
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Bualadh bos. The ambassador, Ms Karadjova, is very welcome. I thank her for visiting. I wish her, all the citizens of Bulgaria and all the Bulgarian Irish citizens who are part of our community here a very happy national day.

The Order of Business is No. 1, motion regarding the earlier signature of the Electricity Costs (Domestic Electricity Accounts) Emergency Measures Bill 2022, to be taken on the conclusion of the Order of Business without debate; No. 2, motion regarding the first meetings of the Joint Committee on Autism and the Joint Committee on International Surrogacy, to be taken on the conclusion of No. 1, without debate; No. 3, motion 96(1) regarding support for Ukraine, to be taken on the conclusion of No. 2 without debate; No. 4, address to Seanad Éireann by Ms Linda Ervine to mark Seachtain na Gaeilge, to be taken at 1.30 p.m. in accordance with the arrangements set out in the motion agreed by the House on 24 February; and No. 5, Animal Health and Welfare and Forestry (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2021 - Committee Stage (resumed), to be taken at 2.45 p.m. and to adjourn after 60 minutes, if not previously concluded.

Photo of Eugene MurphyEugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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Following Senator Craughwell's comments, I must say the Cathaoirleach is a fountain of knowledge. Ambassador Karadjova is very welcome to the Seanad today. Our thoughts are very much with her and eastern Europe at the moment. We are very shocked and horrified by the continuing aggression by Russia towards her neighbours in Ukraine. We compliment her and her nation on what they are trying to do for their neighbours. We are doing all we can here for them. We are totally with the people of eastern Europe on this, and we sympathise with the ambassador on what her country is going through at the moment.

I wish to return to roads projects. At some stage the Leader might ask the Minister for Transport to pay us a visit and deal with a number of road projects. I do not expect him to come for one road in Roscommon. We have a very busy route from Athlone to Roscommon, which I am sure the Leader has travelled at some time in her political life. It is an extremely busy national secondary road. The sum of €18 million was allocated in the national development plan to do a bypass, the Ballymurray to Knockcroghery bypass. This is not just a secondary road going from Athlone to Roscommon, it is a road that takes traffic from Donegal right down to Wexford, so it is very important. Rumours are circulating that it has been taken out of the national development plan. When we bring in the Minister for Transport, I ask the Leader to put that on the programme for discussion because it is of serious concern to people in County Roscommon, in particular in the mid-south Roscommon area.

I extend our good wishes to the Convent of Mercy senior camogie team, which won the all-Ireland championship recently, beating a Cork team from Carrigtwohill. Any time we beat a Cork team is good. That is significant for the county. From your own family connections, a Leas-Chathaoirligh, you know some of the people in the county. I send congratulations to Ellen Cafferkey and Ali Campbell, the joint captains, and Niamh Fitzgerald who was the player of the match. We wish them well. It is another good day for sport in Roscommon.

Photo of Joe O'ReillyJoe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
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Yes, I suspect I would have family members on the team. I thank Senator Murphy.

Photo of Barry WardBarry Ward (Fine Gael)
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I also extend my welcome and good regards to Ambassador Karadjova. I had the pleasure of visiting Bulgaria and the Rila Monastery about 16 years ago, but I was informed by her of the fact that Mr. Bourchier was buried there. I was not there with a group of Irish people, so I was not aware of it. It is a beautiful country. We are delighted to see the ambassador, although the times are very challenging for any neighbour of Ukraine at the moment. We wish them well.

This morning I want to talk about the resignation of Professor Ben Tonra who has resigned as vice principal for internationalisation and global engagement at the UCD college of social sciences and law. This must be a siren to academics and to the Government in this country that there is a real danger surrounding funding of third level education. For some years, in particular since we introduced free fees, mar dhea, and the removal of the ability of universities to fundraise directly through that stream, for example, funding for the third level sector has become increasingly difficult. We now have a situation where universities are going all out to raise funds through many different streams and students are one of them, but there are also industry partners, international partners and research. All those aspects have now become independent funding streams for third level. The danger is that it has left universities open to exploitation. Where there is money, it will often follow academic activity. The question is how independent the activity is and how it stands alone from the benefactor or the person who is funding it.

China is a part of that. The funding of the Confucius Institute in UCD started a long time ago as part of the university's Asia strategy at a time when China appeared to be opening up and moving more towards wanting to be a constructive member of the international community. The reality is that China's funding of the Confucius Institute and other measures comes with baggage and requirements. I have raised this issue directly with the Minister for Education on the leaving certificate Mandarin syllabus. We have a situation where Mandarin Chinese teachers are coming to Ireland from China. They will only teach the simplified characters in respect of Mandarin that are used in mainland China. We do not explore the possibility, for example, of Cantonese or other Chinese dialects being available to students here and we do not explore the opportunity for them to use the traditional characters that are used in places like Taiwan. There is a real danger now that the academic integrity of institutions like the Confucius Institute and other institutes in UCD and other universities around the country will be compromised by funding from the likes of China and other international stakeholders.

The fact Professor Tonra has now essentially put his job on the line – he will remain an academic at UCD but he has stepped back as vice principal for internationalisation and global engagement - must be a serious warning for the Government, the Department of Education and the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science that they must look at funding for third level institutions. At this point, they must review how the universities are funded to examine whether we as a State should be putting in place measures to protect them from this kind of exploitation.

Photo of Gerard CraughwellGerard Craughwell (Independent)
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The ambassador is welcome to the House today. It is amazing that it took a war in Ukraine to bring us all so close together. I hope that closeness continues.

I express my thanks to the Irish Air Corps for going the extra mile and flying to Romania yesterday to bring home parents and their surrogate children. People have said things about the Air Corps in this place, about it not being regulated and this, that and the other, but when it is required to step up to the plate, it always steps up to the plate.

Irish neutrality and Irish military non-alignment is now very much in public discourse. Most people now accept that Ireland is not and never has been a neutral country. We do not conform to the requirements of the Hague Convention of 1907 as a neutral country, therefore we cannot claim neutrality. What we can claim is that we are militarily non-aligned. I heard the words "politically neutral" used the other day. There is no such concept. We come out with such nonsense to try to explain ourselves.

Since 1999, under Chapter 8 of the UN charter, Ireland has deployed with regional organisations. One might ask what is the difference. If we deploy with the United Nations, we wear a blue beret. If we deploy under a regional organisation, which includes the EU and NATO, we wear the beret of our nation. In the case of the Irish Defence Forces, it is the black beret.

Ireland and NATO have been in public discourse for some time. Let us talk about that for a few moments. The Irish Partnership for Peace has been working with NATO since 1999. The Defence Forces spent considerable, time, effort and expense getting NATO operational capabilities concept, OCC, phase 1 certification for the Naval Service LE George Bernard Shawand for the Army Ranger Wing. Therefore, while we are not aligned with NATO, we are damn close to it.

Senior officers in the Defence Forces complete the NATO planning process module and are NATO certified on successful completion as part of the senior command and staff course. All military NATO doctrine is referenced and used in Defence Forces doctrine, so it is definitely aligned with NATO. Ireland does not use the training doctrine or certification from Russia or China. Therefore, we are not aligned with them.

The White Paper on defence in 2015 categorically states we should increase our alignment with regional actors such as NATO and the EU entities. Ireland is very much aligned militarily with NATO but the real fact is we are incapable of delivering any commitment to NATO, if asked, because of the current state of our Defence Forces. When the Minister talks about neutrality, military non-alignment and political neutrality, he should probably sit down and study precisely what we are before he makes statements. Could we please be honest about this and stop being afraid? NATO is not a bad word. Being allied to NATO is not a bad thing. People need to stop muddying the waters on neutrality. There is nothing wrong with proactive military alignment when it is required. Ireland is aligned with NATO, but it exercises its right to refrain militarily from NATO activities, save those that are under Chapter 8 of the UN charter. The bottom line is this country needs to have a discussion on neutrality. Until that discussion happens, however, we are sitting on armaments today that we can send to Ukraine. I have seen people standing with their shoulders to tanks to try to stop them rolling into their towns. I have photographs that were given to me this morning by the ambassador from Ukraine and they are horrific. We cannot sit idly by. I do not want bloodshed but I want people to be able to defend themselves. We should send the weapons.

Photo of Niall Ó DonnghaileNiall Ó Donnghaile (Sinn Fein)
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I, too, wish to extend a word of welcome to the ambassador. She is very welcome to the Seanad.

Earlier this week, we held the 61st plenary session of the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly. I must say that it was a very worthwhile endeavour, as it usually is. It is the first in-person plenary we have been able to hold since the start of the pandemic. While it was a much shorter event this time around, it allowed us a great opportunity to engage between institutions and parliamentarians right across these islands at such a crucial time globally but, indeed, here at home and between these islands as well. We have in this House a number of very committed members of that body. The work that it does sometimes gets overlooked. I propose that going forward, the relevant committees of the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly, which do some very good scrutiny work and engagement, would perhaps be able to be discussed and platformed in this institution. I will raise that issue with the Leader and hope to bring it to the Committee on Parliamentary Privileges and Oversight at an appropriate time. I think that would be a good opportunity.

I tabled a Commencement matter this morning on the issue of the referendum to extend presidential voting rights to citizens outside the State. The Minister of State pretty much informed me of what I have known for some time now, which is that the referendum Bill is on the Order Paper and the Minister for Foreign Affairs will be sponsoring that legislation. Will the Leader use her good office to encourage the Minister and his Government colleagues to bring that Bill before the Oireachtas? We are about to head into the St. Patrick's Day celebrations and travel around the world to tell our diaspora just how much we value them and that they have a stake in the life of their home. We have committed to not leaving citizens in the North behind. This is a real and tangible way in which we can show citizens that they are valued and have a stake in the life of the nation. As the President said, he is not the President of a land mass but of the Irish people. It is only right, therefore, that Irish people wherever they reside, across Ireland or throughout the world, have the opportunity to vote. We could initiate that referendum Bill in this House. We have discussed this issue at length in previous Seanaid and there is support right across the House. This is a short, succinct Bill. In saying that, however, I am not advocating that we do anything haphazard. We need to ensure this referendum is won. We need to bring the same level of positivity, collaboration and inclusion to that referendum as we have seen with others in the past few years. I look forward to the Leader's response. Hopefully, it is something on which we can work going forward to ensure that Bill is done as speedily and efficiently as possible.

Photo of Marie SherlockMarie Sherlock (Labour)
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I realise the ambassador has left but I very much want to welcome her to the Chamber. Veliko Tarnovo in Bulgaria and the people there have a very special place in my heart. I am delighted to be able to congratulate them on their national day.

The issue I wish to raise this morning relates to the National Gallery of Ireland, which is one of a number of extremely important cultural institutions in this State. In fact, it is the foremost cultural institution in the State and in that role, it has a responsibility to show leadership in who it works with and to whom it contracts work. Indeed, any public body that is spending State money has that responsibility but in particular, as our primary national cultural institution, the National Gallery of Ireland holds that responsibility. I support the artists and staff who have expressed concerns about the awarding of the cafe contract to Aramark. Of course, any State body is perfectly entitled to award a contract to those they deem most appropriate but serious questions must be asked about the procurement policy. We know that those artists who have withdrawn their works from the Zurich portrait prize exhibition, namely, Brian Teeling, Emma Roche and Emily O'Flynn, have done so at considerable personal and professional risk. We know that Salvatore of Lucan and Jonathan Mayhew are among the 84 artists who have signed letters expressing their deep-seated concerns about the awarding of the contract.

Obviously, it is important that people are entitled to register their concerns about the continuation of direct provision - I think most of us here feel that direct provision needs to come to an end - and, in particular, the standards some companies have maintained within the direct provision centres. Knockalisheen and Lissywollen are two of many direct provision centres where there have been issues regarding the food provided by Aramark. I am seeking a debate on procurement policy in the State and the latitude that is allowed. I have seen the correspondence from the director of the National Gallery of Ireland, which says that the gallery is bound by Irish and EU procurement law. If that is the case, we need to have an understanding of what it means. Does that mean that it can only award contracts on the basis of the lowest cost or is there scope to include other factors? Having looked at procurement law, I believe there is absolutely scope to include other factors but I am not sure that was set out in the tender. There is a real issue now regarding how the State spends money and the responsibility it has to ensure it is spent well in supporting activities that are worthy of it in this country.

Photo of Frances BlackFrances Black (Independent)
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I warmly welcome the ambassador of Bulgaria. I wish everybody well on this Bulgarian national day.

I was at an absolutely harrowing briefing this week on Yemen and what is happening there. I want to give a little bit of detail of the reality of what is happening. In the past seven years, 377,000 Yemeni people have died due to direct and indirect causes of war, 10,000 of whom are children. It is shocking. That is going on today. The director of the UN World Food Programme has stated that 400,000 Yemeni children are at risk of dying. This is absolutely devastating. There can be huge difficulty in accessing information as there are no foreign journalists on the ground in Yemen. The war has been extremely under-reported due to the media being prohibited from entering the country. At the very minimum, there needs to be an insistence by the international community to the Yemeni Government that media should be allowed into the country to report accurately on what is happening on the ground.

I learned at the briefing, which was unbelievably powerful, that very little humanitarian assistance has been provided to Yemen and its people due to blockades being imposed in 2016. The enforcement of the criminal blockade has prevented vital aid reaching 80% of the population who depend on it. As a result of this lack of assistance, 5 million Yemeni people are now on the brink of famine. In 2018, the UN warned that Yemen was facing the worst famine in the world for 100 years and predicted that 12 million to 13 million innocent civilians were at risk of dying from lack of food. I could go on. I feel that we need to urge the countries supporting such attacks to rethink their contribution to a war that has resulted in bringing this country to its knees. Some 86% of Saudi Arabia's weapons come from Britain and the US. We need to take a hard look at ourselves as a country and honestly look at what changes we can put in place to stop being implicated in this war. It is beyond time for political resolution to end this war.

The Government rightly called for sanctions against the brutal Putin regime within five days of the invasion of the Ukraine. We must ask whether the lives of Europeans are more valued than those of the people of Yemen and, indeed, Palestinians who are living under an apartheid regime.I ask the Leader for a debate in the coming weeks on the war in Yemen. It is essential that we investigate this in more detail. I support the call for this brutal war in Yemen to end now. There will be a march on 26 March from The Spire at 1 p.m. As stated by Martin Luther King and referenced in this Chamber the other day, which I will reiterate with regard to Yemen and Palestine, the ultimate tragedy is not the oppression and cruelty by the bad people but the silence in that regard by the good people.

Photo of Malcolm ByrneMalcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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I had an unusual experience last night. Last night, the Ukrainian ambassador addressed the Fianna Fáil Parliamentary Party meeting. While she exhibited the full extent of her diplomacy, she also spoke very personally about the impact of what was happening in the democracy. As we know, this is about the battle of democracy versus autocracy.

I was also conscious last night that Deputy Alan Kelly had stepped down as leader of the Labour Party. I extend best wishes to our friends in the Labour Party. We should appreciate the service that Deputy Kelly has given. Those of us in politics appreciate the personal sacrifices that everybody makes. I wish Deputy Kelly well and also the Labour Party in the decision that has to be made.

The officer board of Ógra Fianna Fáil was also in Leinster House last night. I was struck by their enthusiasm and idealism. It reminded me of our idealism and why we are in politics. It brought me back my first day in this Chamber when we were all excited and giddy on becoming Members of the Seanad. Every time I walk into this House I still feel that sense of the honour and the privilege of coming in here. Perhaps it is naive but I am very conscious of the opportunity that is presented to all of us.

It is a difficult time to be a democrat and a difficult time to be involved in politics but we face the challenges. We need to use our role to inspire others, to encourage more young people, women and men, into political life, to stand up against those who criticise and give out and to talk about the nobility of political life. The debate I am calling for does not require any Minister to be brought in. It is not a big showcase, but about us talking about the value of politics and us being public representatives and the importance of that role. I would hope the Leader would facilitate that very open discussion. All of us have got involved for very noble reasons. We may not always agree, but we got involved for the noble reasons of making our communities, country and planet a better place. With democracy under challenge, we should have that discussion.

Photo of Joe O'ReillyJoe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
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I join with Senator Malcolm Byrne in sending very good wishes to Deputy Alan Kelly. I had the privilege of serving on the Council of Europe with him for two years. He was an extraordinary and effective representative there for Ireland. I wish him and his family well.

Photo of John McGahonJohn McGahon (Fine Gael)
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This week, I have focussed all of my comments on Ukraine. I have talked about how it should be granted immediate accession to the European Union, how we should ensure that if it wishes to join NATO it can do so, how Ireland's policy of neutrality is ridiculous and that we should be sending weapons to defend against the murder of women and children on the streets of the European Continent.

Today, I want to focus on another angle that is two-fold. I commend the Russian people who in their own country are standing up against President Putin. God knows how dangerous that is, not only for their livelihoods and safety, but their lives. It has been forgotten in this debate that this horrific war is not being carried out in the name of normal, decent Russian people who abhor this as much as we do. It takes real courage to protest against President Putin on Russian streets yet people are doing that. It is important to acknowledge that.

I want to focus on the sanctions that we are putting forward. We have to totally and utterly cripple the Russian economy. All bets have to be off the table. We have to cripple it. In crippling the Russian economy, we cripple President Putin's ability to wage a war of death upon the European Continent. How do we do that? We have to ensure that we move SWIFT to include all banks, including banks involved in energy. There can be no nitpicking among western European countries about what sanctions to impose and not impose because it might hurt our personal interests. We need total attrition in an economic sense.

Mairéad McGuinness, in her role as European Commissioner with responsibility for financial stability, is leading the charge for the European Union on this. She is the woman responsible for introducing these sanctions in Russia. It would be a very good idea if we wrote to Commissioner McGuinness to ask her to come before the Seanad at some point in the next few weeks - I know she is incredibly busy now - to outline the sanctions that have been imposed, how they can work and what sanctions can act as good deterrents for the future to make sure something like this does not happen again.

Photo of Sharon KeoganSharon Keogan (Independent)
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Up to now, I have not spoken on the Ukrainian war but I do so today. Over the past week, approximately 1 million people have crossed the borders into safe jurisdictions. These 1 million people will be looking to resettle in Europe. Yesterday, there was a call by the Taoiseach and the Minister, Deputy Coveney, for volunteers to come forward to see how we could help and house the people that are going to come to our country. In that regard, figures of 20,000, 25,000, 30,000 or 40,000 have been mentioned.

As leaders, we can only do so much. There are other leaders in our communities, including church and faith leaders. My call is to them. We have almost 3,000 parishes in this country. How lovely would it be for all of those parishes to take on board a family to integrate them into society, get them jobs and housing. No better vehicle to do that than the churches. Each church in this country has a responsibility, be that the Muslim, Jewish or any other faith. My call today is to the church leaders of Ireland to do what they can and for them to step up and show what Christianity and faith is really about.

Photo of Maria ByrneMaria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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Today is World Book Day. It is also the 25th anniversary of World Book Day. The theme of this year's World Book Day is, You Are a Reader. It is about encouraging children to dress up in the clothes of their favourite character and to read a book. It is really important because of the whole educational aspect around it. Many bookshops have offers on today and reductions in the price of books, in particular children's books. It is important to get that message out.

March is endometriosis awareness month. Endometriosis is a debilitating illness that affects 167 million women worldwide. It is endometriosis awareness month worldwide. For one in every ten women, endometriosis can be very debilitating in that it is very painful. It is the cause of many people not being able to conceive. It sometimes takes up to seven and a half years to get a diagnosis, which is too long. It is important to highlight that this is endometriosis awareness month. If people feel they have symptoms they should seek an assessment and get checked. It is really important that we would seek to bring about a reduction in the seven and a half years' timeframe for a diagnosis.

Photo of Paul GavanPaul Gavan (Sinn Fein)
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As I so often have the pleasure of doing, I support every word said by Senator Black in regard to Yemen. I attended that meeting on Tuesday as well. The situation is truly shocking. The figures which have come from the United Nations are horrific: a minium of 10,000 children have died since 2015, 377,000 Yemenis have died since 2015 and 4 million Yemenis have been displaced. It is worth bearing in mind as well that the bombs that are dropping on Yemen are dropped with the full support of Britain and the US. The US has troops in the United Arab Emirates helping to organise those bombs.Every one of those troops comes through Shannon Airport; every one of them. When we have that conversation on neutrality, let us reflect on all of that and our unfortunate role over the past seven years in this awful war. Thankfully, we are all agreed on Ukraine and the motion we are going to pass later is absolutely necessary and important but I do not understand why we do not have a conversation about sanctions against Saudi Arabia. In fact, quite the opposite is the case. A Fianna Fáil Minister went to Saudi Arabia two weeks ago to ask how we can do more business with that country, as it continues to drop bombs on Yemen and as children continue to die in Yemen. I genuinely do not understand why one set of lives has such value while another set of lives apparently has none. I would ask everyone to reflect on that.

I was not planning to speak on that topic but did so because Senator Black spoke so eloquently on it. I want to raise the fact that at University Hospital Limerick this morning there were 90 people on trolleys. There was a powerful article in a number of newspapers today on people in the emergency zone. One patient, an elderly man in his eighties, had a 54-hour wait on a trolley before getting an oncology appointment. In one zone with a capacity of 22 patients, there were 52 patients with just three nurses allocated. The Minister visited recently and it was a welcome visit but I stand by everything I said in that regard. It would be great to have the Minister come to the House so that we can have a conversation on that topic.

Photo of Annie HoeyAnnie Hoey (Labour)
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Like Senator Maria Byrne, I want to raise World Book Day, an issue that is very close to my heart. In particular, I want to talk about access to libraries and library services for children. I loved nothing more than going to the library as a child. I was a voracious reader and sometimes during the summer holidays when there were late-night openings, my dad would bring us to the library twice in one day. A love of books is one of the great gifts that my parents gave me and my sisters. I recognise that it is not always easy for parents to access books and libraries and particularly during Covid, children did not have the same opportunities to browse the aisles of their school library or the local library. The Labour Party would love to see a scheme introduced to encourage children throughout the country to make a trip to their local library to encourage a lifelong love of books. A tangible community approach will improve literacy skills in a very targeted way. Providing each child with a membership card and the offer of a book to keep could stimulate community participation. In addition, as a late-night reader myself, I believe we should extend library opening hours, particularly at weekends when most people have the time to use and enjoy the library.

We need to rethink and reimagine the potential of our libraries, which can be developed as local resource hubs not just for bookworms and students but those seeking training, work and aiming to set up their own businesses. There are several libraries around the country, including one being planned in Bettystown, County Meath that are really transformative spaces for their communities. They are not just library spaces but hubs for community activity. We also need to create a fairer starting point for children to help eradicate illiteracy through early intervention at primary and secondary school. Even though today is World Book Day, reading is for life and I would love to give every child in Ireland the right to read and to have that rooted in the local library.

Photo of Martin ConwayMartin Conway (Fine Gael)
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I support Senator McGahon's proposal to invite EU Commissioner Ms Mairead McGuinness to the House to discuss the sanctions. I am sure the Commissioner, who is from Ireland, would be very happy to address the Seanad on the mechanisms and methodologies being used to impose sanctions on Russia. Hopefully, we will see uniformity across Europe and the world in the imposition of these sanctions. It would be a very interesting discussion to have if the Commissioner was prepared to make herself available.

Today is World Book Day, as colleagues have said. Books are important for people developing their knowledge, even from a later perspective. The happiness and the opportunities that books give people are wonderful. However, many people cannot read books, including people who are visually impaired or who have print disabilities. The Marrakesh Treaty, which was passed a number of years ago, deals with copyright issues for books being transformed into digital formats that can be accessed by people with print disabilities. The National Council for the Blind of Ireland, NCBI, is the agent in this country tasked with the responsibility of producing books in digital format, not just for blind and visually impaired people, but also people who might suffer from dyslexia and other conditions. Government funding in this area is important because access to print material is critical. Let us imagine a library where 90% of the shelves are empty because books are not available. That is a library one would not be inclined to go into. Unfortunately, 90% of the books in the world are not available in digital form and cannot be accessed through audio, Braille or other forms of digital transposition. We have a lot of work to do in this area because 100% of books should be available to everybody. Nobody should have their choices limited simply because books are not available in the format they would use to read them. It is a point worth noting and is something of which we should all be aware. It is so important to make resources available to turn the 10% into 100%.

Photo of Jerry ButtimerJerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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I will begin with a text message I received this morning from a friend who worked in Kyiv and who I had the pleasure of meeting when I was an election monitor. It reads as follows:

Talking with all my co-workers, it's like 1939-1941...trying to flee West, jumping on trains, finding cars, leaving wives and kids at the border..the amount of destruction to infrastructure - horrible.

That is from a man who worked with the World Bank in Kyiv until last autumn. We stand with Ukraine today. The suggestion of Senator McGahon, endorsed by Senator Conway, that we invite Commissioner McGuinness to the House should be given serious consideration.

I ask for a debate on the HSE national service plan, a service plan amounting to €20.7 billion that our good friends in Sinn Féin never acknowledge. To be fair to Senators Gavan and Maria Byrne, they come in here and talk about the problems at University Hospital Limerick regularly but there is something fundamentally wrong with our health service when the biggest ever budget of €20.7 billion, plus an additional €350 million for a 2022 waiting list action plan, is not addressing the problems. There is something fundamentally wrong with the HSE and it needs to be addressed. All of us want to see waiting lists reduced, hospital bed capacity increased, and home care and social care packages enhanced and increased. We need an urgent debate, not just about Sláintecare or universal healthcare, but about putting the patient, the person who needs care, at the core of what we do in our health service. I ask that we have that debate as a matter of extreme urgency. Indeed, we should have a rolling debate on a series of issues related to healthcare and HSE.

Photo of Mary Seery KearneyMary Seery Kearney (Fine Gael)
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I pay tribute to the Irish people for the extraordinary and overwhelming generosity they have shown towards Ukraine. The fact that centres all over the country that were set up to collect goods for shipping to Poland have had to stop receiving them because they were overwhelmed is really quite extraordinary. I note the statement by Dóchas this morning that it would be better for people to give money at this stage. If people donate money it can be directed to organisations working on the ground in a humanitarian capacity, including Child Fund Ireland, Christian Aid, Concern, Habitat for Humanity, the Irish Red Cross and Goal, among others. There is a substantial list of organisations on the websitewww.dochas.ie.

I also want to pay tribute to the recruitment industry who have reached out to me this morning to say that when people from Ukraine come to Ireland, they will need time to recover and get over the trauma and sheer shock of all they have been through.They are willing at some point appropriately in the future to look at a jobs fair, something to assist and start normalising lives again. I am very grateful for all that is going on there.

I want to pay tribute to my home constituency of Dublin South-Central. In several locations there have been gatherings of goods and of support. I am overwhelmed by the number of people who are contacting me offering accommodation in their homes for families, saying we have this many bedrooms, or a log cabin at the end of the garden, we are happy to accommodate families. It comes back to the fact that we have an incredible legacy, we are an incredible people when it comes to reaching out, having a heart for humanity and pulling together at a time of need. That has been manifest in what is now only a week. We have had an extraordinary response. I want to draw that to the attention of the House. I thank everybody for the support, most of all dochas.ie. In the future, let us see what we can do when we have given the shelter and the support.

Photo of Tim LombardTim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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I wish to talk about an issue I have spoken about before, which is, how we use our public amenities. There is a swimming pool complex in Dunmanway that unfortunately lies idle half the time. This is a huge issue for our society. We put €5 million into a complex and have it open between 11 a.m. and 5 p.m. on five days a week. It is run by the local authority. I was there last week and one of the big issues is that it is not open at weekends. Where is the joined-up thinking here?

There is an issue about how we provide access to swimming and swimming lessons for the public. We all have kids, we all have the opportunity to teach them to swim. In some locations people are waiting two years to get lessons. If one has a situation where a pool that is owned by the State only runs at half capacity, it is frustrating. It makes no sense.

The big debate is about how we are going to move this issue forward. Firstly, we have an issue about how a local authority manages its assets. Secondly, we need to look at providing public pools. We need to have a programme about providing public pools. We have seen major work regarding sports capital grants putting money into sports clubs. We should have a debate in this Chamber with the Minister of State at the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media about pools and how he believes the vision needs to be changed on providing those public pools. The biggest town in west Cork is Bandon. There is no pool in the town. If one wants one's kids to have lessons in Bandon tomorrow morning one will be waiting for up to two years. That is not good enough. We need to have a vision, a change. I ask that we invite the Minister of State, Deputy Jack Chambers, in here to ask him what his vision is regarding providing access to water and water safety, and in particular providing public pools for those among the general public who want access.

Photo of Michael McDowellMichael McDowell (Independent)
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It is on the Order of Business that we should have no debate on Ukraine and pass a resolution in line with that in Dáil Éireann. I have no argument with the terms of the notice of motion that is there. However, I want to say this. They are very mild in their terms. I am thinking of the number of people who have already been killed and such things, and this is very diplomatic language. It is Iveagh House speak, if I may say so. Whereas I suggested that we could have a motion passed without debate, I believe we could say more, and we should say more.

In regard to what Senator Gavan said about Saudi Arabia and Yemen, I fully agree with him. I have spoken and written as strongly as I can on the subject of Khashoggi, the Yemeni war, the use of cluster munitions on Yemenis and the like, by Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates, and the differential approach that there apparently is to what one condemns and what one does not condemn.

I would say that Sinn Féin should be careful. Its record speaks for itself. The party only needs to read the Irish Examiner today to see just how ambivalent and how reticent it was about raising its voice when it mattered, before all this took place. I want to put that on the record, in a cordial way, but nonetheless let us have some reality here. What is happening is wrong, it is evil, a crime against humanity and a war crime. This motion does not talk about sanctions or anything like that. It should go much further. I am just putting my views on the record. It has obtained cross-party support and I do not want to be divisive but I think we have to have a different attitude.

Photo of Micheál CarrigyMicheál Carrigy (Fine Gael)
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I wish to raise an issue which is linked to the situation in Ukraine and the knock-on effect that is going to have on our economy over the next 12 months. I would like the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine to come in to discuss the effects it is going to have on food, fuel and fertiliser. This is going to have a significant impact on our agriculture sector in particular going forward. Much of the fertiliser we import comes from Ukraine, as well as grain, barley and wheat. All of those are grown in that country. If those crops are not sown shortly, as they need to be, then we are going to have an issue over the next 12 months. We need to look at that.

Do we need to put schemes in place for more tillage to be sown in our own country, to make sure we have a supply for our food industry? That is very important. We import the grain, wheat and barley to produce goods to export. However, if we are not going to be able to access that raw product what effect is that going to have on our agriculture sector? It is important that the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine should come in, if possible, to discuss this issue and see what we are putting in place for our agricultural and food producing sectors for the next 12 months. Now is the time to deal with it, not in six months' time.

I mentioned fuel. I got a picture from a family member who is in the bus industry. It is the first sign I have seen, it was somewhere in north Dublin, of €2 for a litre of plus petrol. That is the first instance of €2 and that is where we are heading with regard to our fuel. We are going to have to seriously look at the rebate scheme, extending or expanding that rebate scheme with regard to fuel for transportation, our haulage and bus industries. The reality is, many companies such as bus companies have contracts for school transport and they are losing money on it because of the costs. We have to deal with those issues.

Photo of Joe O'ReillyJoe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
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I thank the Senator and invite the Leader to respond to the issues raised.

Photo of Regina DohertyRegina Doherty (Fine Gael)
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I thank the Leas-Chathaoirleach and Senator Carrigy. I will pass on his comments to the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine today because I fear that in order for us to be effective in our sanctions against Putin and Russia it will certainly have an impact on the economies of all the European countries and indeed the western world. How to plan for that is what the Senator is asking for a debate on, and I will ask for that today.

I have no doubt that Senator McDowell would have written a far more strident, strong and probably more effective motion today but at least we have a motion that is a start and that is agreeable and that will be passed hopefully unanimously by the House today. As agreed on Tuesday this will be a rolling debate. It is not scheduled for next week but it is rescheduled for the week after. At that stage maybe we can revisit having a stronger wording.

The suggestions made today to invite our Commissioner to address us might be something we could take up with the Committee on Parliamentary Privileges and Oversight because I think it would be worthwhile to hear how and why the sanctions are planned and phased as they are, and why normal people like us do not understand why things are being withheld. It might be a worthwhile debate. I thank Senator McDowell for his contribution.

Senator Lombard asked for the Minister of State at the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media to be brought in with regard to a programme for public pools. I will organise that.

Senator Seery Kearney talked about the generosity of Irish people. I do not know whether we are unique but there is always a swell of response and generosity when Irish people are asked to step up and they have indeed done so in spades in the past week and will continue to do so.I am mindful the Ukrainian ambassador said yesterday that much of what we are collecting is possibly not what is needed. Ukraine, through the humanitarian agencies, will issue lists of stuff, probably mostly medical supplies, that are actually needed as opposed to what we naturally think we should offer. I look forward to hearing about that.

Senator Buttimer asked for an urgent debate, which I will organise, regarding the national service plan and the HSE waiting list action plan. He is correct that what is required is structural change in our health service and not new plans that come out every year followed by analysis of the plans and why they did not work at the end of the year. We are all aware that structural changes are needed.

Senators Hoey and Conway raised World Book Day, as did Senator Maria Byrne. I wish everybody well on that. I acknowledge the major input and the joy it is to read a really good book. When I get one I cannot put down, I love it. It is a great experience. I acknowledge that.

Senators Gavan, Black and McDowell touched on what is an horrific ongoing situation with regard to criminal behaviour. I did not go to the briefing mentioned by Senator Black as I do not think I was invited to it, but I was not aware that so many people have been murdered in the past seven years. I will certainly ask for a debate on that and facilitate it as fast as I can.

Senator Keogan made a very worthwhile plea to all our faith leaders. Many of us automatically assume we are talking about Catholic Church leaders, but we are also talking about our Protestant and, indeed, Muslim, Buddhist and humanitarian faith leaders. Senator Keogan made a plea to people to open up their hearts and homes for what will be, according to the Minister for Justice this morning, tens of thousands of refugees we hope to welcome in the next couple of weeks. Senator McGahon made the suggestion of standing up to the Russian people through the inclusion of all sanctions, which means all banks and not just selected ones that will not impact on us. He also made the suggestion of asking our European Commissioner to come to the House.

Senator Malcolm Byrne made a unique but apt suggestion of having a debate on the value of politics and an open discussion of why and how we should cherish our democracy in light of the resignation of our colleague, Deputy Alan Kelly, yesterday evening. I wish Deputy Kelly, Regina and their children continued success in whatever role, political or otherwise, he chooses in future.

Senator Black spoke about the war and Senator Sherlock about the awarding of the contract by the National Gallery of Ireland. I will ask for a debate on procurement policy but, from personal experience, it is determined by European legislation. It may be something we should start to challenge and ask for those extra conditions to be added to the tender process.

Senator Ó Donnghaile made a suggestion that post meetings of BIPA we should have a conversation about the committee work it does, which would be very valuable. I will ask the Oireachtas Committee on Parliamentary Privileges and Oversight to put that on the agenda too.

Senator Craughwell talked about the repatriation of Irish citizens from Romania by the Irish Air Corps. He thanked the Air Corps for that and asked for a debate on our neutrality, which was suggested on Tuesday and has gone to the Minister for Foreign Affairs for consideration of a date.

Senator Ward talked about the resignation of Professor Ben Tonra, his concerns about Chinese influence because of their investment in UCD and a debate on funding for the third level sector. Senator Murphy spoke about our roads projects and inviting the Minister for Transport to the Chamber, for which there has been an open invitation for the past number of weeks. We talked about the national development plan, especially the roads projects that have been excluded from it, just before Christmas. I have not forgotten about it. I consistently remind the Minister the invitation is open to him to come to speak to us. Senator Murphy also congratulated the Convent of Mercy senior camogie team, which we join him in doing.

It is endometriosis awareness month, which Senator Maria Byrne brought up. The leader of Fianna Fáil in the Seanad, Senator Chambers, frequently raises the issue because of her personal experiences and interest in it. It is an enormously quiet disease that women have been made to suffer silently for far too long. We have talked a lot about women's issues, which is a phrase that annoys me, over the past couple of months. This is a medical issue that is something we can fix fast. The other issues are cultural and we may have a more arduous journey to try to change an entire culture, but this is a medical issue that requires medical intervention far quicker than the seven years that is the current average. We need to wake up and have a proper medical response and programme in Ireland for the one in 10 women who suffer silently from this condition. I am very happy to add my support to the awareness campaign that is going on this month. I ask everybody else to do so in a similar way, if they can, for which I would be very grateful.

Order of Business agreed to.